smooth lander- the one custom equipment that should be legal

[Davis-Lightheart]

Basically there is a custom equipment in the game that cancels the landing lag from all aerial normals called, "Smooth Lander". The effect is always attached to that name, it is demonstrated in this video here.

I believe this equipment should be legal, at least after the first few months. Basically is L-cancelling without the annoying trigger input.
The one great problem with custom equipment though is that the stats attached to this thing are random, but I feel there is a simple solution.

All players should be required to have custom equipment on that negates the effects of the original and make the stats flat again. By having one solution, we now have a finite number of combinations to make this possible. We can remove the random element and extract the benefit from this move without turning the meta upside down. Yeah, it looks like it wouldn't be a pain to unlock, but the long run benefit could be so rewarding.

Edit: I made this a seperate thread because of how easily this gets mixed in with the "unfair stats" part of the conversation.

 

[Bedoop]

...Huh.
This is actually pretty nifty.

 

[Illuvial]

An interesting thought, I suppose, but I'm still not a fan. You can do the things listed here without the ability you just need to get good at L-Cancelling. All the equipment really does is make the game more accessible. I'm totally fine with that, but since it involves equipment and stat fluctuation being thrown into the equation I'm gonna have to say no

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

An interesting thought, I suppose, but I'm still not a fan. You can do the things listed here without the ability you just need to get good at L-Cancelling. All the equipment really does is make the game more accessible. I'm totally fine with that, but since it involves equipment and stat fluctuation being thrown into the equation I'm gonna have to say no

But there is no L-cancelling in this game, just auto-cancel, and that's fairly different.

Also, you should elaborate on stat fluctuation. Since this technique only involves removing the stat factor.

 

[JediLink]

An interesting thought, I suppose, but I'm still not a fan. You can do the things listed here without the ability you just need to get good at L-Cancelling. All the equipment really does is make the game more accessible. I'm totally fine with that, but since it involves equipment and stat fluctuation being thrown into the equation I'm gonna have to say no

...There is no L-cancelling in this game.

 

[NewGuy79]

Basically there is a custom equipment in the game that cancels the landing lag from all aerial normals called, "Smooth Lander". The effect is always attached to that name, it is demonstrated in this video here.

I believe this equipment should be legal, at least after the first few months. Basically is L-cancelling without the annoying trigger input.
The one great problem with custom equipment though is that the stats attached to this thing are random, but I feel there is a simple solution.

All players should be required to have custom equipment on that negates the effects of the original and make the stats flat again. By having one solution, we now have a finite number of combinations to make this possible. We can remove the random element and extract the benefit from this move without turning the meta upside down. Yeah, it looks like it wouldn't be a pain to unlock, but the long run benefit could be so rewarding.

Edit: I made this a seperate thread because of how easily this gets mixed in with the "unfair stats" part of the conversation.

mind explaining how you found this item? did you just find it randomly or did you have to do something specific for it?

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

mind explaining how you found this item? did you just find it randomly or did you have to do something specific for it?

I didn't find it. The guy in the video did. It's just like any other piece of equipment. It comes to you at random with random stats, but the same name and special effect.

 

[Illuvial]

But there is no L-cancelling in this game, just auto-cancel, and that's fairly different.

Also, you should elaborate on stat fluctuation. Since this technique only involves removing the stat factor.

Do you have any idea how difficult and time consuming it will be to get gear that directly cancels out the stats? I do totally understand that the long term benefit COULD be worth it, but to expect every competitive player to pour countless hours into grinding for the perfect item set that HAS TO INCLUDE one particular item is just asinine. Seriously I'd be spending more time grinding equipment to get ready for tournaments than actually practicing for tournaments

If Nintendo would just make SD Card saves it wouldn't be as big of an issue as we could have one person grind it out or modify the equipment to give him optimal stats, and then just upload that save for public use, but sadly that's not the world we live in.

I just don't think that asking people to grind that much just so we can have the possibility of faster pacing is really worth it. If someone finds out how to grind for these things quickly and efficiently then fine, but the idea of spending dozens of hours to get the perfect set is the most painful concept I've ever had to stomach in all of Smash history

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Custom Moves are already on the table, what's one more thing to collect? And it's just one piece of equipment and a specific combination of other equipment which you are sure to have collected in the grind for custom moves. Once you have the Smooth Lander, it's a matter of applying math and with there being more than one leftover slot, it shouldn't take longer than maybe a week for the diligent player to collect the right combination to make it null.

 

[Jiggly]

Or we can allow equipment in tournament play, and using this upgrade would be simple as that.


Warning: I said this before I saw how crazy equipment was, no one should take this comment seriously xD

 

[ミスティック Speed]

O.O oh wow...if anything, THIS should be permitted!

 

[Bedoop]

Or we can allow equipment in tournament play, and using this upgrade would be simple as that.

@ Illuvial there's your answer.
You don't even need "Stat Imbalance" because you can see what equipment the opponent has on in the CSS, allowing for balance.
If a Ganondorf has all Power, that's fine. He's frail as a piece of Rock Candy and can be launched easy.

 

[B0NK]

Nope, too hard from a TOs perspective. Gotta make sure every set up has this equipment and the stats boost it gives is random.

Just play the game.

 

[JediLink]

Or we can allow equipment in tournament play, and using this upgrade would be simple as that.

No. Just... absolutely not. Might as well turn on items as well at that point.

 

[Illuvial]

Custom Moves are already on the table, what's one more thing to collect? And it's just one piece of equipment and a specific combination of other equipment which you are sure to have collected in the grind for custom moves. Once you have the Smooth Lander, it's a matter of applying math and with there being more than one leftover slot, it shouldn't take longer than maybe a week for the diligent player to collect the right combination to make it null.

Well of course, it goes without saying that until we have hard data via tournament standings and meta developments we will never really know if movesets and equipment legality is a good or bad thing. We won't know until we have at least a couple dozen decently sized tournaments worth of data to study. Once we look at what people build and use we will be able to see whether or not the mechanics should be legal or not.

As for the grind, yes its simple math, but I've gotten tons of different stats with items. Its not like there are only 2 or 3 possible numeric values for stat increases and decreases. Plus when you consider that equipment actually decreases stats more than it increases stats, it becomes kinda to have 3 items that perfectly balance each other out. Its not impossible, but it could take quite some time. I could be wrong though, of course

As for the actual effect of Smooth Lander, I'm not against the effect. I think its got some cool aspects to it that can make the game faster and more exciting, but we'll have to see how the meta for characters develops before we can know such things, but if I get the item I wouldn't mind testing things out with it to see what shenanigans characters can pull off

@ Illuvial there's your answer.
You don't even need "Stat Imbalance" because you can see what equipment the opponent has on in the CSS, allowing for balance.
If a Ganondorf has all Power, that's fine. He's frail as a piece of Rock Candy and can be launched easy.

Ganondorf is already one of the heavier characters in the game, and also one of the strongest. If he builds full damage he still won't be as easy to kill as a Jiggs or a Kirby, as he's still a heavy character, he just takes a tad more damage (stat decreases don't do much). If he builds full damage on the other hand, now that significant increase to damage can make him an absolute nightmare in a lot of MUs. Regardless, this is the wrong thread to discuss things like this in, so I won't go anymore indepth into the topic, and if you want to continue discussion you can either PM me or post in the proper thread and just tag me

 

[NewGuy79]

I like the idea of this, what we need now is the correct application for it.

and just so every one knows the reason that 3ds saves dont work on other systems is because their encrypted, if some will to go through the technical stuff of decrypting it then I can definitely see some one grinding out the required stuff and uploading it online

so...get to it guys, if you want it you better not have a problem working for it

 

[Senario]

Not that much of a fan because RNG based stat bonuses/minuses that will be different depending on setup. Leading to obviously a different feel for each setup for your character since even small stat boosts have a large effect on the game.

Make smooth landing equipment +0 stats.

(While you're at it, make dash dancing and wavedashing equipment with +0 stats lol. And then increase hitstun/make it so you can't act out of tumble.)

I honestly don't see why this isn't a feature of the base game though. Why is it on some RNG based equipment =/.

 

[Thinkaman]

Absolutely not.

Guys, we're not legalizing equipment. All equipment changes stats a random amount, which makes them completely incompatible with the environment of a competitive fighting game.

Furthermore, stop attempting solutions to problems that don't exist. I can think of few ways to more easily ruin Smash than "take away all landing lag." Jeez, people spent 6 years screaming for air dodge landing lag in Brawl, and now you want to remove it?

 

[rpgcaster]

Equipment is kinda dumb in itself because of how random it can be, coupled with the fact that that randomness doesn't really mesh will with a competitive environment.

Though all that aside, a bigger issue would be how would you be able to guarantee that you can get the equipment. Custom moves were a pain to get but this... this is harder cause of the RNG. Add random stats and it's a TOs worst nightmare. Not to mention the idea of mitigating the stats given by the smooth landing equipment would be infinity harder to get a hold of due to once again, the randomness of the RNG gods.

I probably don't have a place saying this given being fairly new but, I really don't get the fuss with removing landing lag. We have auto-cancelling moves and again... this is a brand new game and different game, why try to make it like it's predecessors?

 

[JoeInky]

I probably don't have a place saying this given being fairly new but, I really don't get the fuss with removing landing lag. We have auto-cancelling moves and again... this is a brand new game and different game, why try to make it like it's predecessors?

For me, it would be because I don't find the new game that much fun to play or watch, the constant poking with maybe a 3 hit tilt combo at the start of a stock is incredibly boring, it would be fun just to have a few more combos in the game.

It just sucks that we have this in the game, but only via equipment, because it's probably never going to be used, not matter how beneficial it is.



I do think it's worth noting that, due to the fact that it's a badge, we could use the exact same piece of equipment on every character and just deal with the slight stat increases/decreases for the sake of a more interesting game.

 

[Naraku]

A cheat device or edited save may come around?

 

[UltiMario]

I've only gotten VERY limited testing in (I have Smooth Lander equip only on DDD) and can't get my timings any more accurate than what I can attempt to time in 1/4 spe but...

This equipment isn't anything to write home about. At absolute maximum it's decreasing lading lag by 25%, probably even less. If you have multiple Smooth Lander equips they might stack to reduce lag by more, but the hopes of being able to throw a single +/- 10 equip on and change the game is absolutely something I'm shooting down right now. If I grind out enough Smooth Landers to try 2/3 of them at once, I'll come back and post results from testing that.

As it stands right now, trying to integrate a single Smooth Lander equip into competitive play is pointless. There's no (known) way to control the RNG on equips, and even if you could manipulate a single perfect equip, it wouldn't even make enough of a change in competitive play with such a small lag reduction to make all that effort worth it.

 

[WritersBlah]

Maybe I'm just being optimistic, but I personally really like this idea. It's funny because when Nintendo asked players for suggestions on how to improve the game, there was a near unanimous plea for low landing lag on aerials (and dash dancing), so in a way, this is Nintendo actually paying attention to us. Sure it's only accessible via equipment, and the amount of grinding necessary just to get one of these smooth landing drops could be pretty annoying, but I think the potential long-term benefit is there. I kinda wish the Smash community were more willing to experiment with more variables. I always hear, "If you want to test something asinine like this out, go TO your own tournament and see how well it works out," but it's kinda hard to do that when everyone's so hesitant to get out of their comfort zone. This is a brand new game guys. It's barely been out for a month in Japan, and less than a week in North America, and we're already trying to ban everything.

Let me remind you that when the Melee community first started out, almost every stage and even items were considered tournament-viable. It was through testing that they figured out what wasn't appropriate for tournament play and compensated over time. This game has brand new mechanics we could be taking advantage of, this being a prime example. Are you guys seriously going to let tradition get in the way of something that could potentially benefit the competitive game?

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Absolutely not.

Guys, we're not legalizing equipment. All equipment changes stats a random amount, which makes them completely incompatible with the environment of a competitive fighting game.

Furthermore, stop attempting solutions to problems that don't exist. I can think of few ways to more easily ruin Smash than "take away all landing lag." Jeez, people spent 6 years screaming for air dodge landing lag in Brawl, and now you want to remove it?

The stats won't matter if we negate them.

I think this just removed the lag on normals, not air dodges.

 

[GrownCannoli]

I shouldn't be surprised that half the people here don't like it...

Not saying this is the future but right now it looks very promising. Less lag = faster play and more combos.

There's literally no downside from what I see. Oh no you have to play the game and earn one. Boo hoo. This site is 50% competitive 50% wack asf.

 

[GameWatching]

I shouldn't be surprised that half the people here don't like it...

Not saying this is the future but right now it looks very promising. Less lag = faster play and more combos.

There's literally no downside from what I see. Oh no you have to play the game and earn one. Boo hoo. This site is 50% competitive 50% wack asf.

Nah i think they don't like it because of the random factor that equipments in general has.

 

[rpgcaster]

I shouldn't be surprised that half the people here don't like it...

Not saying this is the future but right now it looks very promising. Less lag = faster play and more combos.

There's literally no downside from what I see. Oh no you have to play the game and earn one. Boo hoo. This site is 50% competitive 50% wack asf.

It's the random stats that equips come with that makes me dislike this. And the "you have to play the game and earn one" IS a problem for TOs that will have to do this on multiple systems. Customs are already an issue in this regard and on top of that the random stats, and finding stuff to negate them (if entirely possible) would just be too much to expect someone to prepare.

Though that being said, I'm not against seeing it implemented, I just don't see a way of it happening without a lot of trouble on the part of TOs.

 

[GrownCannoli]

It's the random stats that equips come with that makes me dislike this. And the "you have to play the game and earn one" IS a problem for TOs that will have to do this on multiple systems. Customs are already an issue in this regard and on top of that the random stats, and finding stuff to negate them (if entirely possible) would just be too much to expect someone to prepare.

Though that being said, I'm not against seeing it implemented, I just don't see a way of it happening without a lot of trouble on the part of TOs.

Ok I can understand that from a TO perspective. Hopefully the connect to Wii function lets you transfer equips unlimited times. So if someone gets one that gives even stats he can pass it around to everyone.

That's just complete speculation though and if it doesn't work that way I hope we can find an exploit or something. The Vanilla gameplay is great but if it can be approved upon I would welcome that.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

The biggest issue I have is game balance. By chance this could make the game more balanced; however, the more likely outcome is this will hurt the balance of the game.

 

[Mithost]

Landing lag in Smash 4 isn't some immediate problem that requires a "fix at any cost" response, especially when our only fix is something like this. Let's take a step back for a second and look at the pros and cons of the proposed change. (This list is in no way complete on either side)

Pros:

- Faster gameplay (more combos, better spacing/approach options)
- More appeal from Melee/P:M fans
- Might make more characters viable
- Potential to explore more equipment in tournaments*

*Iffy on this one, because equipment+custom moves on link can make arrows do 70-100 damage each

Cons:

- Players are required to grind out three pieces of RNG based equipment that each have Smooth Landing AND balance each other's stats out to exactly zero
- A process to verify that these conditions are met before each individual match needs to be implemented
- Our main source of competitive matchmaking (For Glory 1-on-1) is rendered useless or gimped
- Players who don't have the time/luck/motivation to farm for this rare set of equipment can't compete
- The newly viable characters might become dominate, as the game was not balanced with universal smooth landing in mind.

I'm not going to base an argument off of this list. All I want you guys to do is to step back and think about what we'd actually have to go through as a game to implement this. We are asking nearly every player seeking competitive play to spend a ridiculously large (and random) amount of time playing through non-competitive modes just to have a legal and non-gimped version of the game available to them for tournaments. The only way out of this time-sink is to figure out save altering/decrypting/distribution, which opens up it's own list of problems for both accessibility and cheat prevention.

All of this for what, exactly? Less landing lag? A slightly faster game? In my honest opinion, it's not even close to worth the cons. Not even close. Smash 4 is already a great game. It has good pacing, combos, and rewards for smart play in ways no other smash game has had before. Would a smooth landing toggle be good in this game? Definitely. Is the toggle worth the days upon days of grinding smash run/stadium (or hours of save transfering/checking before tournaments) that is required for each player to even have a tournament legal copy of the game?

 

[Killress]

No. Just... absolutely not. Might as well turn on items as well at that point.

But if we have other items that counter the stat boosts and end up with minimal stat boosts across the board, it wouldn't be broken. Just would allow for faster-paced gameplay.

 

[Loki]

I think people are being to grim about the random stat part of the equipment. We have little to no data on how stats work to inmediatelly just diss them off and call them game breakers. We dont know how massive or little the changing stats affect X or Y about a character, also, most equipments with special atributes only provide small boosts and nerfs to the stats to balance themselves out.

I for one support the idea of giving this piece of equipment a shot. Combos will mosty likely become a tad longer and more intersting to watch while still not being melee-crazy combos. As for the stats, as OP stated, canceling stats via equipment management is a pretty viable and legit option, sure, we might not be able to completelly null the numbers, howevver as I said before, we have no idea how neglectible or how much of an impact these numbers have on actual gameplay.

Remember that equipments give (normally) "huge" boosts to a stat... around 20 per piece. This means that only high numbers seem to have a noticeable effect. Therefore, if we manage to balance out numbers to around +5 -5, the changes might be so small that they might as well not matter.

tl;dr: We need way more data on how equipments go and how hard or soft stats alter gameplay at low values.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I'm not going to base an argument off of this list. All I want you guys to do is to step back and think about what we'd actually have to go through as a game to implement this. We are asking nearly every player seeking competitive play to spend a ridiculously large (and random) amount of time playing through non-competitive modes just to have a legal and non-gimped version of the game available to them for tournaments. The only way out of this time-sink is to figure out save altering/decrypting/distribution, which opens up it's own list of problems for both accessibility and cheat prevention.

All of this for what, exactly? Less landing lag? A slightly faster game? In my honest opinion, it's not even close to worth the cons. Not even close. Smash 4 is already a great game. It has good pacing, combos, and rewards for smart play in ways no other smash game has had before. Would a smooth landing toggle be good in this game? Definitely. Is the toggle worth the days upon days of grinding smash run/stadium (or hours of save transfering/checking before tournaments) that is required for each player to even have a tournament legal copy of the game?

The thing is though, what are hours of timesink to years of tournament play? It's not the same thing as training yourself on a worthless character and dealing with the frustration of players beating you on a consistent basis because of lack of skill or poor character choice. it's getting the game to a more viable state. And the thing is, once it's done, it's done.

When the Wii U version comes out people can just transfer over equipment to that version and the grind is eliminated for TOs.

Sure, it probably shouldn't be allowed in early tournaments when the grind is real on the 3DS version, but why should we impose a limitation on later tournaments when most players have the necessary materials to take the game to this next state? At least experiment with side events in the early stages to see how this evolves over time, as well as hosting online tournaments that use this particular equipment.

As for balance, so what? There are many things in the Smash games that Sakurai didn't balance around despite being in the game, but we accepted them into tournament play. There's always going to be an element that was overlooked and can be used.

Also, For Glory shouldn't be judged for how competitive gameplay is, seeing as how most competitive Tournaments are going to allow more than just flat stages in the future.

 

[popsofctown]

I don't know how hard it would be to get exactly zero, there's a lots of stuff like +10, -19, your home run bats do double damage that can be useful for moving numbers.

This is a big barrier to entry though, and given no other information probably damages character balance. I'd entertain the idea of allowing +0 smooth lander (only level 1 smooth lander, because level 2 smooth lander at zero isn't going to be realistically possible) be allowed only for low tier characters, and only later when it's clear what those low tiers are. That goes along with effects like heal on kill and maybe even spawn with star rod, if the stats are set to zero it would improve balance to offer those exclusively to lower tier characters.

 

[yume_nikki]

How about maining Sheik? Really small landing lag, combos and competitive potential.
You don't even have to grind in 1p modes. The first time you play the game it's already there.

 

[Saito]

It's complicated.

If something like this were to be used, then people would have to find out ranges of which equipment is fair for each character anyway.

It's nigh impossible to get smooth landing equips that will balance the game without throwing off the stat balance.

It would take a significant amount of research to see what stats should and shouldn't go above X points.

30 speed is already a significant speed boost, add in a lag free aerial and we have to balance it out even further.


To make matters worse, this smooth landing isn't relatively easy to come across anyway.
I've done over 50+ smash runs with multiple people and this is my first time seeing it at all even while looking through the stuff my friends acquired

Only two ways this could become a standard.

• Support from nintendo to provide players with one without stats via Wi-fi (Extremely unlikely)
• Players find suitable stat ranges for each characters that don't skew things too much (Extremely difficult to pull off and maintain (Would literally be a TOs worst nightmare)

 

[1MachGO]

I was an advocate against equipment in the beginning, but if there is a way we can get this work, I really think we should do it.

This would significantly improve the viability of many characters and may potentially increase the viability of aerials as an approach. IMO, the current state of the "approach" game in smash 4 is a mix up between dash attacks and grabs. The only exceptions are for characters who have the luxury of a decent walk speed or projectile camping

 

[Leebee]

if there's a way to duplicate an equipment setup that gives

smooth landing
+10 speed
-10 defense

then we should totally run with that. I see a lot of "omg random stats," but that's not what we're discussing here. we're talking about a very specific type of equipment. of course it will take a lot of time to get the sweet spot perfect equip, but it's possible. hopefully even more possible with some kind of duplication or making it easier once the WiiU version is out. complain to sakurai everyone to give out a standardized smooth landing +10 speed -10 defense equip~~!

 

[Saito]

Only slightly relevant

In the testing area it takes Robin 5.3 seconds to make it from side to side

With +11 speed (Closest I had to +10) it took 4.7 seconds

+21 speed (The starting equipment that every 3ds game has) makes it 4.5 seconds to go across it

And just for fun +77 speed took 3.3 seconds lol.

Speed seems to affect your air movement as well so it helps with air approach as well.

 

[Leebee]

Only slightly relevant

In the testing area it takes Robin 5.3 seconds to make it from side to side

With +11 speed (Closest I had to +10) it took 4.7 seconds

+21 speed (The starting equipment that every 3ds game has) makes it 4.5 seconds to go across it

And just for fun +77 speed took 3.3 seconds lol.

Speed seems to affect your air movement as well so it helps with air approach as well.

thanks for the testing, Saito. around ~10% increase in speed is cool, and increased air speed is even more awesome.