Meta Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity (SLHG)

[Jugoken]

I tried his setup just to test it out. He's not using build 1, he's using SL badge only, so +36a/-35d/0s. I thought it was a good idea because it's very simple to set up, but the damage is ridiculous man. Also, even with the ridiculous damage, 0.9 knockback overcompensates and becomes harder to kill. So now we have a metagame where it's very easy to build damage through a few moves, but it's hard to kill at late percents. This makes it so that most of the game is spent at high percents where there are not many combos. Using build 1 could compensate for the ridiculous damage but then killing becomes even more of a problem. I think our setup is better for those reasons.

Also, lol'd at "TheRealCarpenter" haha

Spoiler

(it's supposed to be carterer lol)

ROFL uh my hand slipped xD Yeah thats what happened xDDDD

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

huh, did that go down already? was it streamed? I completely missed it.

Sorry I should have been more clear. A SLHG side event was the intention but it never got off the ground due to low interest/not enough setups with the specs unlocked

But the point is, one of the biggest smash venues in the world did recognize the format as having potential, if only for a fleeting moment.

 

[SaturnFrost]

I tried his setup just to test it out. He's not using build 1, he's using SL badge only, so +36a/-35d/0s. I thought it was a good idea because it's very simple to set up, but the damage is ridiculous man. Also, even with the ridiculous damage, 0.9 knockback overcompensates and becomes harder to kill. So now we have a metagame where it's very easy to build damage through a few moves, but it's hard to kill at late percents. This makes it so that most of the game is spent at high percents where there are not many combos. Using build 1 could compensate for the ridiculous damage but then killing becomes even more of a problem. I think our setup is better for those reasons.

Also, lol'd at "TheRealCarpenter" haha

Spoiler

(it's supposed to be carterer lol)

"Using build 1 could compensate for the ridiculous damage but then killing becomes even more of a problem."
What do you mean by Killing becomes even more of a problem? You mean its hard to kill or too easy?

 

[Balgorxz]

build 2 is still more balanced IMO the vertical knockback nullifies the gravity effect quite nicely, build1 is fun with some characters though.

 

[Muro]

Sorry I should have been more clear. A SLHG side event was the intention but it never got off the ground due to low interest/not enough setups with the specs unlocked

But the point is, one of the biggest smash venues in the world did recognize the format as having potential, if only for a fleeting moment.

Ah ok. Yeah GIMR has shown interest before, but I don't think he's gonna do it before there's more demand. We'll see what happens.

"Using build 1 could compensate for the ridiculous damage but then killing becomes even more of a problem."
What do you mean by Killing becomes even more of a problem? You mean its hard to kill or too easy?

The 0.9 kb ratio overcompensates the effect of the badge. I hit an up air with falcon around 200% and quite high (about the height of the top platform in battlefield) and the CPU survived. So I would say killing is hard. And this was with the SL badge only, not with build 1.

 

[SaturnFrost]

Ah ok. Yeah GIMR has shown interest before, but I don't think he's gonna do it before there's more demand. We'll see what happens.



The 0.9 kb ration overcompensates the effect of the badge. I hit an up air with falcon around 200% and quite high (about the height of the top platform in battlefield) and the CPU survived. So I would say killing is hard. And this was with the SL badge only, not with build 1.

Hmm I don't use 0.9 Kb,,I use 1.0. Lol that Ai must've had some miraculous Di. I had a crap ton of matches last night and didn't have a problem killing off the top. Also I tested Build 2 with Fox vs Falco and The difference in killing off the tops about the same as Build 1.

 

[Muro]

Hmm I don't use 0.9 Kb,,I use 1.0. Also that Ai must've had some miraculous Di. I had a crap ton of matches last night and didn't have a problem killing off the top. Also I tested Build 2 with Fox vs Falco and The difference in killing off the tops about the same as Build 1.

I was replying to a question about 0.9 kb and SL badge only dude, that whole post is assuming 0.9 kb ratio.

This is my opinion about Build 1 vs Build 2 that I posted before:

Build 2 allows more horizontal combos and since it buffs vertical damage doesn't suffer as much from u-tilt shenanigans. It is logistically harder to unlock, but not by much (certainly not when comparing with custom moves for example). Build 1 is easier to unlock, and has increased damage and knockback. I like increased damage for 1 main reason, it also affects shield damage. Shields are still very strong even with SLHG, so nerfing them is quite alright. However build 1 makes some followups impossible especially horizontal followups. The increased KB also kinda makes up for the lack of moon launching in the up-tilt stuff. Build one also makes kills happen sooner, don't really have an oppinion on that one.

 

[Jugoken]

Hmm I don't use 0.9 Kb,,I use 1.0. Lol that Ai must've had some miraculous Di. I had a crap ton of matches last night and didn't have a problem killing off the top. Also I tested Build 2 with Fox vs Falco and The difference in killing off the tops about the same as Build 1.

True to be honest both builds feel the same to me for the most part, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between what builds someone has, but thatz just me :S prolly has more to do with my character choice i guess

 

[Muro]

True to be honest both builds feel the same to me for the most part, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between what builds someone has, but thatz just me :S prolly has more to do with my character choice i guess

I agree that the feeling is really similar. It starts showing more when you start to learn your characters' combos and notice little differences between builds. Like I said before I'm 50:50 on the matter, I'd like to see more gameplay before judging.

 

[SaturnFrost]

I was replying to a question about 0.9 kb and SL badge only dude, that whole post is assuming 0.9 kb ratio.

This is my opinion about Build 1 vs Build 2 that I posted before:

Ahh I see..Miscommunication on my part then. ^_^

True to be honest both builds feel the same to me for the most part, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between what builds someone has, but thatz just me :S prolly has more to do with my character choice i guess

Build 1's character runs speeds are a tad faster then 2 (hardly noticeable) (i assume Jump height is affected by this as well). Percent build up is near identical between the 2. tbh, as stated above, they feel the same tho the stats (on the equipment) state otherwise

 

[blargh257]

Build 2 because kill moves are more balanced. If you're a character that rarely kills by anything except off the top, such as Mewtwo, in build 2 you have a chance and a decent counterpick (Halberd.) That isn't true in build 1- horizontal kill moves are always superior compared to vertical ones with the same damage output due to the heavy gravity.
Moon Launcher also helps get to kill percentage a little faster for a lot of characters who have good up tilts, up airs, and up smashes. VERY few valid characters are unable to use this, the only two I can think of are Sheik for sure and maybe Peach.
There are also the points already made, but this is what I think is good about build 2.

 

[Jugoken]

Ahh I see..Miscommunication on my part then. ^_^


Build 1's character runs speeds are a tad faster then 2 (hardly noticeable) (i assume Jump height is affected by this as well). Percent build up is near identical between the 2. tbh, as stated above, they feel the same tho the stats (on the equipment) state otherwise

I see u on, wanna slgh again?

 

[Balgorxz]

I think the biggest difference comes from combo potential, characters who rely on vertical combos are way better than the ones that rely on horizontal ones with build1, build2 has potential for characters that rely on both type of combos .

 

[SaturnFrost]

I see u on, wanna slgh again?

sure...been trying to grind for sonics,dhd,megamand, and little macs alt recoveries...The game keeps trolling me with Megamans shadow blade...2-3 of them each trophy rush

 

[Jugoken]

sure...been trying to grind for sonics,dhd,megamand, and little macs alt recoveries...The game keeps trolling me with Megamans shadow blade...2-3 of them each trophy rush

Do all star mode on hard I always get customs doing that even if i lose

 

[SaturnFrost]

Do all star mode on hard I always get customs doing that even if i lose

rooms up

 

[blargh257]

GGs again Jugoken.
God, I suck at Smash 4. The only thing I have in this game is punishes, and even then I'm not good, just decent.
Fortunately, where in Smash 4 I got irritated and left because I was salty at losing neutral a lot, here the punishes that I get keep me going.

 

[SaturnFrost]

Do all star mode on hard I always get customs doing that even if i lose

wanna try build 2?
this lag tho..gg's

 

[SaturnFrost]

wanna try build 2?

 

[Jugoken]

Okay!

 

[SaturnFrost]

Okay!

switching my chars to build 2...If the lag persists...imma have to call it a nigh
gamesup

 

[Jugoken]

GGs again Jugoken.
God, I suck at Smash 4. The only thing I have in this game is punishes, and even then I'm not good, just decent.
Fortunately, where in Smash 4 I got irritated and left because I was salty at losing neutral a lot, here the punishes that I get keep me going.

Blargh man! I could never play C.Falcon like that for my life, your good bro I look forward to our next fights!! >:^)

 

[Roukiske]

I'm just wondering everyone's stance on this: I have yet to play this mode, but am slightly interested in it. The smooth lander item everyone is getting is the same one right? So if every character has the same increase and decrease stat, does this item alone really make that much of a difference (stat wise)? Trying to get 0 stat changes sounds extremely hard to get (though I applaud the people who are trying to) and I like the idea that you could just use a character with SL item by itself and just play. When I have time I'll definitely give it a go with just the SL item alone on every character.

 

[SaturnFrost]

Blargh man! I could never play C.Falcon like that for my life, your good bro I look forward to our next fights!! >:^)

gg's...Lag gave me a headache for real.

 

[Jugoken]

switching my chars to build 2...If the lag persists...imma have to call it a nigh
gamesup

Sorry for the random ass laggy moments bro, I dont know why its doing that T_T

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Also, huge props for setting up a SLHG tournament dude, good luck.

Well it's a giant maybe. I would have to see if there is enough interest to actually run it.

And from the brief couple of hours or so of fooling around with Build 2, I can clearly see that it is the better build. Some characters like Mario still have some bull**** up-tilts, but Yoshi's has been nerfed (thank god) and a few others. Vertical kills are now balanced out between horizontal kills pretty much, and we can run it without a change to launch rate. Counters are also not as bad as build 1, which posed a serious issue.

Personally I think 3 stock 6 minute is the way to go.

Some characters do suffer more from the recovery nerf compared to others, so grinding out customs for these select few might be required:

Little Mac: tornado uppercut offers a little more vertical height, at the cost of being worse against platform camping opponents. You're gonna have to ban Battlefield.

Link: He does have a tether, but his vertical recovery is still a bust. Not required but Whirling Leap helps.

Ganondorf: Horizontal recovery is awful. Wizards dropkick helps him recover greatly. This can also be paired up with Dark Fists or Dark Vault for some better up B distance, but that isn't as necessary as dropkick.

Duck Hunt: No vertical recovery sucks. Super Duck Jump doesn't offer a lot of horizontal however, but at least it's vertical is fixed. But it also helps with gimps. So thats a plus.

Charizard: Charizard doesn't require Fly high, but it helps that little extra ompf. Having a flat walled stage doesn't help recovery if he misses the flare blitz though, he's dead. An inclined ledge like Battlefield he can still survive.

Doc Mock: Super Jump helps his recovery by a lot. But he also loses a valuable kill move. This one is optional.

Mega Man: Tornado Hold. This one fixes itself.

 

[blargh257]

Personally I think 3 stock 6 minute is the way to go.

...
Why?
Because you want the tournament to run better? There would just be a lot more timeouts. That's not running the tournament better, that's just making more people upset.
It's like saying, "Oh, you wanna play Puff? You're timing out every third game unless you go in too much."

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

...
Why?
Because you want the tournament to run better? There would just be a lot more timeouts. That's not running the tournament better, that's just making more people upset.
It's like saying, "Oh, you wanna play Puff? You're timing out every third game unless you go in too much."

So far I haven't seen a set go to timeout. Even with characters playing a more diffensive playstyle, combos rack up damage faster and kills are easier to get. The longest I've seen a match go for has been 4 and a half minutes.

I suppose if two defensive characters like Duck Hunt or Samus go at it time outs will happen more, but at that point you're just gauging your eyes out waiting for the match to end. Apex 2015 Abadango vs. Dabuz shows that. Other matches played fine but the moment it gets defensive, is the moment where the timeouts happen. And at that point, I want the match to end quickly. So I think a 6 minute cap would be fair enough.

Maybe 7. But I still think timeouts would happen regardless.

 

[exposedorange]

i had this idea also once but couldn't make the right build but it seems like you put in a nice amount of effort to make this work, can't wait to try it,

 

[Muro]

sure...been trying to grind for sonics,dhd,megamand, and little macs alt recoveries...The game keeps trolling me with Megamans shadow blade...2-3 of them each trophy rush

Complete challenge M7 (one master orders ticket as mega man) for tornado hold. The other one is random though.

I'm just wondering everyone's stance on this: I have yet to play this mode, but am slightly interested in it. The smooth lander item everyone is getting is the same one right? So if every character has the same increase and decrease stat, does this item alone really make that much of a difference (stat wise)?

yes, the badge is the same for everyone and yes, it alone makes a huge difference. Check the OP.

Trying to get 0 stat changes sounds extremely hard to get (though I applaud the people who are trying to) and I like the idea that you could just use a character with SL item by itself and just play. When I have time I'll definitely give it a go with just the SL item alone on every character.

Nobody is trying to get 0/0/0 though. We all play with the same build with the same stats. I don't see what's so special about 0/0/0, we're already changing the mechanics of the game on account of HG alone, having some small effects is no big deal, so long as we can get them consistently and with the same stats for every character in every wii u (which we can).

The SL item by itself ramps up the damage way too much, and the knockback too. You can sort of make up for the knockback by setting the knockback ratio to 0.9, but the damage is still ridiculous. You can use build 1 (SL badge + standard defense badge + standard agility badge) for no extra work and with much better results (and also avoid messing with the kb ratio thing).

Well it's a giant maybe. I would have to see if there is enough interest to actually run it.

Ah alright. Kind of a chicken and the egg thing though. We have to get interest to get tournaments, but we have to get tournaments to get interest haha. I think the best way to go about it would be to have SLHG as a side event for a normal tournament and give some incentive for people to try it, like reduced price if you enter the side event. I dunno, I'm not very experienced as a TO. If all else fails we can always organize a SLHG online tournament though.

And from the brief couple of hours or so of fooling around with Build 2, I can clearly see that it is the better build. Some characters like Mario still have some bull**** up-tilts, but Yoshi's has been nerfed (thank god) and a few others. Vertical kills are now balanced out between horizontal kills pretty much, and we can run it without a change to launch rate. Counters are also not as bad as build 1, which posed a serious issue.

hmm hadn't thought about counters, good point.

Personally I think 3 stock 6 minute is the way to go.

I think 6 minutes is way too low, it should be at least 7, but I'd even have 8 like we had for brawl.

Some characters do suffer more from the recovery nerf compared to others, so grinding out customs for these select few might be required:

heh, I think that's life, all characters are not created equal. I think Little Mac, Link, Ganondorf, Charizard, Doc Mock are unviable with or without SLHG. Duck Hunt kinda borders on viability in base sm4sh, but not really. The only relevant characters for the metagame that get the big nerf are sonic and diddy, 2 of the most hated characters (we got lucky lol). I think if you're gonna allow certain customs you should allow them all. Besides, character balance is already what sm4sh is best at.

In a customs off meta, Megaman is the exception since his rush recovery has too much stalling potential and should probably be banned. He also has a readily available alternative.

 

[ZADD]

So i made a quick tier list for Build 2. Keep in mind none of this is official, it's all just my personal opinion.

A :
（High）
（Mid）
（Low）

B :
（High）
（Mid）
（Low）

C :
（High）
（Mid-High）
（Mid-Low）
（Low）

D :
（High）
（Mid）
（Low）

E :
（High）
（Mid）
（Low）

Edited: I might as well explain my expectations of each tier, to give a better view.
A-Very much capable of overwhelming opponents with either strong combo game, gimping ability, or zoning options. Combos are truer for these characters and have less variability.
B- Proficient in all aspects of play, with few shortcomings. These fighters can perform well in the right hands with enough practice.
C-Characters that may do well in certain match-ups, but have unfavorable match-ups also.
D- Characters with slightly more shortcomings than things going for them, not to say they can't win matches.
E-You can play these characters, but with the drastic match-ups in SLHG, you might want a different choice...

 

[Muro]

@ ZADD I disagree with your list in some cases, I'll elaborate later.

Does anybody want to play a couple of matches right now? nnid: super77

I'm gonna add these which were posted on this thread:

hellachill42069
VeggieSteel
Jugoken
jota281usa
Geek4Jesus
SaturnFrost

edit: added y'all, check for the invite. Also created a room in case anybody shows up.

@ ZADD I see you're on, do you want to play some matches right now?

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

So i made a quick tier list for Build 2. Keep in mind none of this is official, it's all just my personal opinion.

Damn you beat me to it. Well, I guess this is as good time as any to show my tier list. It's a bit more scattered than my original which only had 7 groupings, but I think this one is a bit more accurate. I could see characters as low as D(high) viable.

A:

(Top)

(Mid)

(Low)

B:

(High)

(Mid)

(Low)

C:

(High)

(Mid)

(Low)*with customs*

D:

(High)

(Mid)

(Low)

E:

(High)*without customs*

(Mid)

(Bottom)


So overall I think we have a pretty clear definition of who the top tier characters are, and the other really good characters. With a few choices just based off personal opinion. You placed Falco and Meta Knight higher than I did for example.

Also I would put Lucario, Kirby, Mega Man, and Sonic up on your tier list. Don't sleep on Sonic just yet.

 

[blargh257]

I think it's too early to make a full on tier list at this time so I'm just going to state who I feel works and to what degree. That is, I'm doing the first two tiers and not ranking anyone in them.
A. These guys have a list of shortcomings that can be counted on one hand.
*Possible main bias alert*
B. Good, but not great.

Well, there you go.
Again, I think if you want to rank things early, this is the way to do it because we're all learning so much that things are bound to change drastically. If this lasts a year (please god let this last a year at least) then everyone will have radically different opinions at the end.

 

[Roukiske]

The SL item by itself ramps up the damage way too much, and the knockback too. You can sort of make up for the knockback by setting the knockback ratio to 0.9, but the damage is still ridiculous. You can use build 1 (SL badge + standard defense badge + standard agility badge) for no extra work and with much better results (and also avoid messing with the kb ratio thing).

Ah so those numbers make that big of a difference huh? I see, good to know.

 

[ZADD]

You placed Falco and Meta Knight higher than I did for example.

Falco and Meta Knight are both incredible in SLHG, both have near-guaranteed setups into kills at all sorts of % ranges. Mewtwo however, has almost no setups, and relies on indiviudal 1 or two hit strings. Your tier list is highly underrating Rosalina, I think if there were ever a character to break SLHG it would be her, I had a friend who mained her and it was honestly terrifying the **** she could pull out. Olimar is AT least B tier, if you played my frind Donutz you would agree. All of this is tier stuff and of course speculation, I was more intending to start the discussion on which characters benefit from this mode the most, and which ones not so much.

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Falco and Meta Knight are both incredible in SLHG, both have near-guaranteed setups into kills at all sorts of % ranges. Mewtwo however, has almost no setups, and relies on indiviudal 1 or two hit strings. Your tier list is highly underrating Rosalina, I think if there were ever a character to break SLHG it would be her, I had a friend who mained her and it was honestly terrifying the **** she could pull out. Olimar is AT least B tier, if you played my frind Donutz you would agree. All of this is tier stuff and of course speculation, I was more intending to start the discussion on which characters benefit from this mode the most, and which ones not so much.

I guess it just depends on what we play and play against. From what I can see many more characters have become viable in this mode and that makes me excited :D

Also I sent out some friend requests. If anybody wants to have some matches just let me know. ID is ArtfulHobbes2.0

 

[blargh257]

I am making a room, someone please come play me build 2, I must train my skill.
EDIT
@ ArtfulHobbes I think I saw you on while I was off, sorry. I'm back on now.

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Nice games Blargh. We had some pretty awesome mostly lagless battles. I saved that one with Ike vs. Mewtwo. Really fun.

I got my own room open if anybody else wants to join

 

[blargh257]

Nice games Blargh. We had some pretty awesome mostly lagless battles. I saved that one with Ike vs. Mewtwo. Really fun.

I got my own room open if anybody else wants to join

Yeah man, GGs.
Lemme tell you, this man's Yoshi is the truth. I got curb stomped. That might not have happened again and again but the one fight was crazy.
You seem like the better overall player, I wanna Falcon ditto you next time.