Meta Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity (SLHG)

[ZADD]

Played some incredible games with @Marachii, your Falcon is really solid man don't be afraid to be aggressive!

Great comeback, what an ending

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

YOU. NEED. TO WATCH THIS.

This is without a doubt the hypest set I've ever played, and it has the coolest combo I've ever seen in SLHG.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

^ I had to make a gfycat of it so I could share that combo with people. http://gfycat.com/FaintCleanGreatdane

There's some good stuff in these vids. I'm enjoying seeing this stuff in action.

 

[Muro]

Great comeback, what an ending

I think I know why these matches last longer. The stage is roughly the size of FD, which is too big imo. Is there a chance we could get a smaller version (main platform size = battlefield main platform)?

YOU. NEED. TO WATCH THIS.

This is without a doubt the hypest set I've ever played, and it has the coolest combo I've ever seen in SLHG.

Pretty good man, keep them coming :D

I don't have as much time as I used to so keeping up with these videos is gonna be hard lol. I think I'll update the OP in the weekend.

 

[ZADD]

(Don't get me wrong the Captain is definitely hype, but...)

As much as I love Falcon, SLHG would really benefit from players showing off other characters, characters that require practice and time invested in order to shine. Falcon is by no means noobish, but his combo game is the easiest to perform in SLHG. I'm just waiting for someone to invest time into Bowser, Fox, Pikachu, Little Mac, Rosaluma, Mega Man, ZSS etc.(especially Meta Knight!) These characters (and others) need dedicated players to hammer out their playstyles. It will take time and practice, but otherwise we can't know who the best character is in SLHG!

It could be Sheik, or even R.O.B. Without experimentation we'll never know tho.

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Falcon is by no means noobish, but his combo game is the easiest to perform in SLHG.

No. Yeah he gets stuff off of down throw, but his entire game pretty much relies on reads to get a combo started. And let me tell you, out of maaaaaany games of playing Falcon. That was the first time a string of that caliber was performed.

 

[ZADD]

No. Yeah he gets stuff off of down throw, but his entire game pretty much relies on reads to get a combo started.

Thats not really what I'm talking about.

Captain Falcon has some of the best frame data in SLHG without a doubt, he has incredible hitstun with low knockback at low %'s. Almost any move can be stringed into a knee relatively easily, the only difficulty comes from the resistance your opponent puts up (DI, Techs). Although he definitely has the capability, I wouldn't consider Cpt. Falcon a "Custom Combo" type of character. His followups are strong and by no means easy, but they're all very similiar and repetitive + easy to predict. Once an opponent figures out your habits, he could easily shut you out with a character that uses a more reactive playstyle. (Rosalina, Samus, Robin, Jiggs)

I just want to see 0-Death combos from characters that improvise in SLHG, that's where the real flashiness lies.
Meta Knight: D-throw > U-air(s) > Up- B
Robin: D-Throw > U-tilt > D-air > F-smash
Marth: D-throw > B-air > D-air
Palutena Grab Combo: D-throw > FF F-air > Grab > D-throw etc..

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Reserved's Peach is the truth. He shut me out good.

 

[SaturnFrost]

Any one interested in posting Falco or Samus footage?

 

[Muro]

I used to think Falcon was top tier but I'm not so sure. His recovery seems pretty bad honestly. He does have a 17% damage spammable uair but I'm not sure that's enough against the likes of shiek and pikachu.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I come back from the dead. Sorta. I'll continue working on SLHG stuff in a week or so, as I'll have a bit more time to myself then.

Anyways, I just came back here for a second to "request" something from you all. From the videos I've seen, including my own gameplay, none of us are taking advantage of SLHG. The main problem is that we're playing through with the mindset of vanilla Smash 4. While some may disagree with that, everything I've seen has just been faster-paced Smash 4 gameplay.

There's a key reason for this, though! Nobody is taking risks when attempting to do things. The only player I've seen take risks with edgeguarding and combos is ArtfulHobbes, who has probably pushed this mode further than any of us have. However, even then, he only plays Captain Falcon and Ganondorf, who are much harder to take risks compared to other characters.

We're doing a lot of cookie-cutter stuff right now, which is why matches go by so slow. Most players here do a throw combo or a two/three hit combo and back off, dropping the whole thing. Using an example from the Bowser vs Peach match is at 0:10. Here, I do N-Air > D-Tilt > D-Throw > F-Tilt > N-Air, and then immediately throw out a F-Smash that whiffs. However, if I was taking it further, I could have done N-Air > D-Tilt > D-Throw > FC'd N-Air > SH D-Air > FH floating D-Air into U-Air/Parasol/F-Air, which would have allowed me to start juggling Bowser or edgeguarding him. Along with that, if the F-Smash I threw out right away hit Bowser, neutral would be reset due to the endlag on the move.

---

When it comes to potential, from initial impressions, the following characters have a lot of growing room (in no particular order):



While every character has quite a bit of growing room considering this mode is only a couple weeks old, those are the ones that have stood out to me as threats here. At the moment, the only character I'd say is "bad" is Robin, which is solely because of their mobility. Their disadvantage state is so horrible here, they're just a punching bag for most characters.

Actually, while on the discussion of characters, I've heard that Little Mac can confirm his KO Punch out of D-Throw at low percents...? If that's true, he's a billion times more threatening when he has it, and becomes a heavily risk/reward based character.

If anybody is wondering why Marth is up there instead of Lucina, my opinion on Marth vs. Lucina has changed pretty quickly. When it comes to the highest level of play, Marth will generally be better due to his tippers on his moves -- we just gotta find out what he has in store. However, Lucina is still just as viable, as she isn't completely overshadowed. I feel like they're more MU based, so players of one will most likely want to main both here.

Oh, and going back to customs, the only customs that should be tournament-legal (in my opinion) is Bowser's Claw Dash, Ganondorf's Drop Kick and Charizard's Dragon Rush. Obviously, Mega Man's Tornado Hold and whatever Duck Hunt mains would like are required, or else those characters are pretty much useless. The main reason for these changes is because Bowser, Ganondorf and Charizard are all completely useless without them. Bowser can't approach at all and is beat by basically everybody without it. Ganondorf dies at 45% near the ledge because his recovery is just that bad (less vertical knockback + less air time + horrid air speed = no horizontal recovery), and Charizard needs Dragon Rush to move in general. However, these customs all need more testing from more people other than us before we decide anything.

Link, Toon Link and Samus may warrant recovery changes, but that's completely up to those characters' mains to decide. While at first I thought they were fine, they're more vulnerable than Captain Falcon off-stage, as any hit, even projectiles, will kill them. Usually tethers would fix this, but tethers are seemingly harder to use here due to the falling speed. I'm not sure, though~

One last thing, though. From my testings, only Pit, Meta Knight, Mewtwo, Olimar, Peach, Pikachu, ROB and Villager can make it under Final Destination. While Pit, Olimar, ROB and Villager are fairly simple, the others require very precise timings to get across. Mewtwo was definitely a challenge to get under FD, but it's super satisfying. Wario and Lucario can also go under Final Destination if they have their Waft and Aura.

That's all for now, I guess.

guys we need to push Marth to top tier pls there can't be a game where he isn't top tier PLSPLSPLSPLSPLS HELP ME

 

[ZADD]

There's a key reason for this, though! Nobody is taking risks when attempting to do things.
guys we need to push Marth to top tier pls there can't be a game where he isn't top tier PLSPLSPLSPLSPLS HELP ME

You pretty much hit the nail on the head of what I was saying earlier. If we ever want to see the true potential of SLHG, we can't be afraid to play characters with very high skill curves. Playing 1-25 matches with Fox will get you a little ways, but sticking with him and looking for any sort of exploitative AT's along the way is what will make you a better player. I've personally been practicing my Falco tech a lot (he might be better than Fox...), it's just too bad my internet setup prevents me from practicing with a bunch of skilled players online :/

The more I experiment with the roster, the more I truly see 0-Death potential in every character, even Robin! (It's all about the Levin Sword and when to go all-out aggressive, zone and pounce).

 

[VeggieSteel]

1. Because Tornado Hold can be unlocked by clearing a Master Orders with Mega Man so it is super easy to get.

2. Rush Coil has the inifinite jump that can be abused

3. Beat is a ridiculous recovery move that also shows up at random instead of fixed.

His default up b was broken, so we either had to limit it through the ruleset or swap it. Getting tornado hold is easy and we avoid messing with the ruleset.

Ah, that's what it was. I know about the stall issues with Rush, but forgot that tornado hold can be unlocked from the challenge wall. I unlocked the custom moves for all the characters I play a long time ago.

Well, call me a stick in the mud, but 'm gonna keep pushing for Beat, because I think that in time using custom recoveries on characters like Doc, Duck Hunt, and so on will gain more favor.

And dying at 50% sucks (/Main bias)

 

[nannerham]

Hey guys I'm new to this forum and I've been in the lab testing some characters that i think have some potential but I've been giving a lot of time to lucario, he hasn't really changed too much from vanilla sm4sh and most of combos still work and flow very nicely, his grab combos at later %'s which is pretty nice, but once his aura starts reaching 80% getting grabbed by him is almost a death sentence, if you don't DI properly lucario has a hoo haa that kills mario at 88% on FD and it works with both dthrow and uthrow (although I do wish I had a way to use optimal DI to see if its easy to escape) aura sphere still combos into his grabs and even up smash, his recovery is still disgustingly good and he has a deadly edgeguarding game, honestly i think lucario has the tools to be a huge threat in SLHG he's not an easy character to use but man do I have so much fun playing him. If you have some questions just let me know I hope I can be of some help.

 

[Muro]

I agree @ Aunt Jemima , but that just means we all need to get better. Getting those kind of punishes is not easy.

Also if customs are on, I wanna rally for DK's up B, DK is not even the best character in the game, and he really needs that up B to compete with the likes of shiek (do you see my point?).

I'm just gonna say I practice regularly with @NatP, which is probably the best smash player here in Portugal, and he does most of what you say, playing with characters like ganon, doc, charizard and DDD, without any kind of custom moves. I play pikachu and still get my ass whooped on the regular. I wish you guys could play him to see it.

I'll have some videos of me and him eventually, but right now matches are still too plagued with SDs to be worth uploading, there's some sick combos though.

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Nobody is taking risks when attempting to do things. The only player I've seen take risks with edgeguarding and combos is ArtfulHobbes, who has probably pushed this mode further than any of us have. However, even then, he only plays Captain Falcon and Ganondorf, who are much harder to take risks compared to other characters.

Thank you. Although I need to get smarter (or at least better timing) with many of my edgeguard attampts. And I guess I do play Ganon and Falcon a lot but I'm trying to be diverse with my other characters to see what we can do. My next meta developing character of choice is Bowser with clawdash.

And I'll help improve the Marth meta too. Let's make him good.

I agree @ Aunt Jemima Also if customs are on, I wanna rally for DK's up B, DK is not even the best character in the game, and he really needs that up B to compete with the likes of shiek (do you see my point?)..

Which Donkey Kong Up-B? Not dongnado because windboxes are banned and we don't want people ragequitting. His other one I don't think is that good. It leaves him an open target because of no hitbox, and standard Up-B goes very far horizontally anyways.

 

[SaturnFrost]

I come back from the dead. Sorta. I'll continue working on SLHG stuff in a week or so, as I'll have a bit more time to myself then.

Anyways, I just came back here for a second to "request" something from you all. From the videos I've seen, including my own gameplay, none of us are taking advantage of SLHG. The main problem is that we're playing through with the mindset of vanilla Smash 4. While some may disagree with that, everything I've seen has just been faster-paced Smash 4 gameplay.

There's a key reason for this, though! Nobody is taking risks when attempting to do things. The only player I've seen take risks with edgeguarding and combos is ArtfulHobbes, who has probably pushed this mode further than any of us have. However, even then, he only plays Captain Falcon and Ganondorf, who are much harder to take risks compared to other characters.

We're doing a lot of cookie-cutter stuff right now, which is why matches go by so slow. Most players here do a throw combo or a two/three hit combo and back off, dropping the whole thing. Using an example from the Bowser vs Peach match is at 0:10. Here, I do N-Air > D-Tilt > D-Throw > F-Tilt > N-Air, and then immediately throw out a F-Smash that whiffs. However, if I was taking it further, I could have done N-Air > D-Tilt > D-Throw > FC'd N-Air > SH D-Air > FH floating D-Air into U-Air/Parasol/F-Air, which would have allowed me to start juggling Bowser or edgeguarding him. Along with that, if the F-Smash I threw out right away hit Bowser, neutral would be reset due to the endlag on the move.

---

When it comes to potential, from initial impressions, the following characters have a lot of growing room (in no particular order):



While every character has quite a bit of growing room considering this mode is only a couple weeks old, those are the ones that have stood out to me as threats here. At the moment, the only character I'd say is "bad" is Robin, which is solely because of their mobility. Their disadvantage state is so horrible here, they're just a punching bag for most characters.

Actually, while on the discussion of characters, I've heard that Little Mac can confirm his KO Punch out of D-Throw at low percents...? If that's true, he's a billion times more threatening when he has it, and becomes a heavily risk/reward based character.

If anybody is wondering why Marth is up there instead of Lucina, my opinion on Marth vs. Lucina has changed pretty quickly. When it comes to the highest level of play, Marth will generally be better due to his tippers on his moves -- we just gotta find out what he has in store. However, Lucina is still just as viable, as she isn't completely overshadowed. I feel like they're more MU based, so players of one will most likely want to main both here.

Oh, and going back to customs, the only customs that should be tournament-legal (in my opinion) is Bowser's Claw Dash, Ganondorf's Drop Kick and Charizard's Dragon Rush. Obviously, Mega Man's Tornado Hold and whatever Duck Hunt mains would like are required, or else those characters are pretty much useless. The main reason for these changes is because Bowser, Ganondorf and Charizard are all completely useless without them. Bowser can't approach at all and is beat by basically everybody without it. Ganondorf dies at 45% near the ledge because his recovery is just that bad (less vertical knockback + less air time + horrid air speed = no horizontal recovery), and Charizard needs Dragon Rush to move in general. However, these customs all need more testing from more people other than us before we decide anything.

Link, Toon Link and Samus may warrant recovery changes, but that's completely up to those characters' mains to decide. While at first I thought they were fine, they're more vulnerable than Captain Falcon off-stage, as any hit, even projectiles, will kill them. Usually tethers would fix this, but tethers are seemingly harder to use here due to the falling speed. I'm not sure, though~

One last thing, though. From my testings, only Pit, Meta Knight, Mewtwo, Olimar, Peach, Pikachu, ROB and Villager can make it under Final Destination. While Pit, Olimar, ROB and Villager are fairly simple, the others require very precise timings to get across. Mewtwo was definitely a challenge to get under FD, but it's super satisfying. Wario and Lucario can also go under Final Destination if they have their Waft and Aura.

That's all for now, I guess.

guys we need to push Marth to top tier pls there can't be a game where he isn't top tier PLSPLSPLSPLSPLS HELP ME

Im fine with Ganon getting a recovery buff if everyone else is...As a samus player i can say her recovery feels fine in slhg...tether for long ranged recovery,up b for close ranged. She feels good so far as default in slhg. Same goes for Falco..His offstage game and down grab resets from shines and dairs are really good(just dont ever shine off stage,its insta sD). I just wish his laser was better on cooldown but it has its uses (laser a recovering player,follow up with offstage fair or dair).

 

[ZADD]

I just wish his laser was better on cooldown but it has its uses (laser a recovering player,follow up with offstage fair or dair).

Yea, I really miss Melee/Brawl lasers... I still have a LONG way to go before I master Falco, but can wreak some havoc.

On another note, I think I'm gonna main Palutena from now on. She was one of my favorite characters in Vanilla, and she absolutely destroys in SLHG. She has grab combos for days, and she has every option covered out of a D-throw. Don't sleep on her.

 

[nannerham]

hoo boy only a few hours and I'm figuring out some shinanegins with if his aura is at 100 he has a nasty kill setup

first hit dair ->grab ->pummel-> uthrow-> uair-> dead. Killed samus at 78% on FD

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

On another note, I think I'm gonna main Palutena from now on. She was one of my favorite characters in Vanilla, and she absolutely destroys in SLHG. She has grab combos for days, and she has every option covered out of a D-throw. Don't sleep on her.

Very good. We need some Paultena user to start developing that meta. Also, you should try and use her super speed and lightweight customs to really bring out her potential as well. I think those two customs in particular can make her an absolute monster with potential we have yet to see.

hoo boy only a few hours and I'm figuring out some shinanegins with if his aura is at 100 he has a nasty kill setup

first hit dair ->grab ->pummel-> uthrow-> uair-> dead. Killed samus at 78% on FD

Also very good, another character we have sleeped on. Lucario's comboes probably vary the most depending on rage/aura affect, but I can see him being amazing especially given his amazing recovery. Down throw/up throw to up-air kills. Remember this.

 

[ZADD]

her super speed and lightweight customs to really bring out her potential as well. I think those two customs in particular can make her an absolute monster with potential we have yet to see.

Those particular customs are more suited for Vanilla imo. They're definitely cool, but the level of abuse combined with SLHG is quite honestly too much; Palutena gets a substantial boost from both Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity anyway. I prefer to use her default for match-up purposes (Counter and Reflect), the reason this Pikachu wasn't using Neutral-B is because I had been reflecting it every time, so he caught on.

Edited: I didn't want to double post, but some people wanted to see in action.

 

[SaturnFrost]

Those particular customs are more suited for Vanilla imo. They're definitely cool, but the level of abuse combined with SLHG is quite honestly too much; Palutena gets a substantial boost from both Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity anyway. I prefer to use her default for match-up purposes (Counter and Reflect), the reason this Pikachu wasn't using Neutral-B is because I had been reflecting it every time, so he caught on.

Edited: I didn't want to double post, but some people wanted to see in action.

...Making this falco player proud ^_^...Good display

 

[Warhuma]

Hello the Smashing Community ! (Long time reader but I rarely write post)

I discovered this topic, SLHG mode and your videos/discussions back on Tuesday.
It's good to see creativity like this, we'll see where all of this will go .

I've just one question, and I didn't find a reason/answer in this topic or somewhere else : Why Heavy Gravity (and so trying to compensate with Moon Launcher Badge) ?

I mean, for me, really the most exciting propertie is the Smooth Lander Badge which almost implement L-Cancel natively.
This is a Game-Changing property which allow new and more combos for all characters, and such a good buff in the speed of the game too (because more combo, more % rapidly, more situation where you want to land a risky Kill move (who says Knee for example ?) without lose some mobility when landing and continuing combo, etc.).

For me, what Heavy Gravity bring is that characters are less "floaty" in the air, which also means 2 things in the Meta/Pace of the Game :
--> A global nerf to all potential way to recovers, and I'm not talking especially about B-special (even if sadly some characters take a big nerf and maybe needs custom which add a new layer of complexity) but more about the simple way to hold the direction back to the stage and so cover some distance before fallen too down.
Sadly this "nerf" or "increasing difficulty offstage" bring some good and bad news :
-----> (+) OffStage is more dangerous, and edge-guarding is also more dangerous and more important to kill fast.
So more tension and more hype, compare to SmUsh where it seems a large majority of characters seems totally safe to comeback to stage. Personally I like that, but...
-----> (-) Like I said earlier, it's overall a big nerf to recoveries (B-specials or simply Hold-Direction/Jump) which add a much bigger layer of complexity if we are trying to "fix" this by custom moves (and so more complicated to set up this for Tournament/Casual).

--> A global buff (BIG buff) to ground combo.
-----> (+) Enjoy the 0-100% combo (often true-combo, and often 0-death combo possibly) where characters may Dair/Throw/Nair/Uair/Utilt like a boss. Fast Fall and Short Hope hugely fast and low to the ground if needed.
-----> (-) It's hugely subjective here, but even with Moon Launcher to compensate, I find it really a little "too much" in the videos. It's still the beginning and when players will be more trained I see too much potential for monsters true combo with SL + HG (0-100%(or death) true combo). Yes I love speed, comboing and entertainment but I want options for the "defender" too, otherwise it will be a "the first hit will gain the stock" (I'm Exaggerated here). I find the global mechanics of Sm4sh interesting, whatever it's the new defined characters/moves, "floaty" physics which also don't prevent to rapidly SHFF and, at higher percents, switch the meta to a more "air-control" (I find Sm4sh to balance Ground/air pretty well), recoveries, Rolls/Dodge

One precision, I didn't play this mode yet (I will try to do so this weekend), but I enjoy watching your videos and my opinions is simply a result after watching all of theses videos (and more) and by thinking about the true potential of this mode (like GUDBI and ZADD said) when players will be more and more trained to this mode with their main character and 0-100%(death) almost true combo will rain over the meta.
i like the idea of not reproducing too much Melee, neither Sm4sh, because theses games exists, but just create a "perfect" fusion which is maybe brought by auto L-Cancel (SL Badge) which add a little more speed/combo/variety and keep the overall new-gen mechanics of "floaty"/Recoveries/Roll of Sm4sh. And so we keep it simple and fun for casuals players, and also increase the possibilities and depth for advanced/competitive/hype players (and viewvers ).


PS : In addition, stay with SL badge without HG (and so without Moon Launcher to compensate) will maybe allow us to free a slot (no need for Moon Launcher) and so test a new second badge for a new Game-Changing and interesting properties (and the third slot to compensate stats of all 3 badges) without adding the "custom moves"'s layer of complexity to "fix" the balance of the mode (Perfect-Shield Helper ? Leaper ? Tough Edge to keep the "tension" for recoveries/edgeguard ? Sprinter ? Shield Exploder ? etc.)

 

[ZADD]

(like GUDBI and ZADD said) when players will be more and more trained to this mode with their main character and 0-100%(death) almost true combo will rain over the meta.

You need to play a lot with both Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity to really see why the two go together. But I'll explain.

Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity are both 2 halves of a big idea, and they kinda need each other to be relevant. With just SL and regular gravity, Smooth lander has little to no effect on the meta. The problem is that moves send opponents too far for followups to be considered "true", and at this point you might as well play Vanilla smash because there's no real difference in gameplay. SL regular only helps a select few characters, and not the whole roster, which is a bit unfair. Conversely with just HG and no SL, followups are there for the taking, but most of the time they slip thru the cracks. Your landing lag lasts longer than the hitstun, so opponents just retaliate immediately (which is bad).

Heavy Gravity goes with Smooth Lander like PB&J. Knockback is greatly reduced on all attacks, so combos are much more doable. Less landing lag allows you to be confident in pursuing combos, without fear of breakout N-airs. When I said before that 0-Death combos will start to happen, I meant that in the grand context of all matches. Just as someone gets good enough to be able to 0-Death people, opponents will get good enough to learn how to escape/prevent those combos. Although SLHG has far more lethality than Vanilla Sm4sh, it's about halfway between Melee and Sm4sh in terms of potential to escape combos. DI can save you from almost every "true" combo in SLHG, and defense overall is a lot more viable due to the nature of Sm4sh's shields and whatnot.

SLHG as a whole is unlikely to turn into who can 0-Death the other faster, it's actually much harder to 0-Death in SLHG than in PM or Melee. (It can definitely be done tho!)

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I'm still in the process of feeling out what characters I want to use in SLHG, but these are the ones I'm most interested in exploring (in no particular order):

and possibly

I know quite a few people are feeling Bowser isn't quite viable, but he meshes quite well with my playstyle - possibly from the period of time that I mained him in PM. Little Mac has an interesting dynamic with heavy gravity in play, and Link is a character I've always liked in Smash. Meta Knight is another character that feels "right" to me, and Mewtwo is just one that I find very fun to use.

If customs are ever "formally" introduced, I could see myself using other characters like .

 

[Warhuma]

You need to play a lot with both Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity to really see why the two go together. But I'll explain.

Thank you for your very well written explanation (and your time) !
Idea : it would be great to see a small FAQ in the OP to directly inform people what's this community need to expand and share this mode (stream/tourney/sharing/mastering it), details on why SL + HG (like the ZADD's response) as well as current discussion about how avoid poor recoveries for some characters (implement custom and which ? ), and others question someone which enter the topic would know instantly.

Thanks all !

 

[Muro]

Which Donkey Kong Up-B? Not dongnado because windboxes are banned and we don't want people ragequitting. His other one I don't think is that good. It leaves him an open target because of no hitbox, and standard Up-B goes very far horizontally anyways.

Windboxes are banned? why do you want to hold my character down like that? shiek is much better than DK why can't he have his good customs? As soon as you start going down this road, you can't justify giving some characters customs and others not. You can't have an impartial criteria to decide which customs get allowed based on a subjective idea of who's good and bad.

It would also be terrible for the perception of our really small scene, it would be perceived as extremely scrubby.

Anyway, I feel like this discussion is a bit offtopic at this point. Customs are not an integral part of the mode, we can just say the decision is up to the TO whether to allow them or not. I strongly feel they ruin the game though.

Thank you for your very well written explanation (and your time) !
Idea : it would be great to see a small FAQ in the OP to directly inform people what's this community need to expand and share this mode (stream/tourney/sharing/mastering it), details on why SL + HG (like the ZADD's response) as well as current discussion about how avoid poor recoveries for some characters (implement custom and which ? ), and others question someone which enter the topic would know instantly.

Thanks all !

Thanks and welcome. There was actually a FAQ in the beginning, but then I felt it was cluttering the thread so I took it out. Now that there are more questions maybe it's time to bring it back.

 

[ZADD]

Anyway, I feel like this discussion is a bit offtopic at this point. Customs are not an integral part of the mode, we can just say the decision up to the TO whether to allow them or not. I strongly feel they ruin the game though.

...Now that there are more questions maybe it's time to bring it back.

I agree, customs overshadow the entire purpose of SLHG, on top of being logistically difficult to implement. The only customs I see being legal are Mega Man, DHD, and the 3 heavies (Bowser Claw, Dragon Rush, Wizard Kick).

The 3 major questions I would address in the OP are:

-What about recoveries? Doesn't Heavy Gravity make most of the roster unusable?

-Why use Smooth Lander with Heavy Gravity, why not just Smooth Lander?

-Doesn't SLHG make U-tilts and U-airs OP? Wouldn't Mario and Diddy be broken?

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Windboxes are banned?

When Ryn had his stream and we were fooling around with stuff, we realized windboxes needed to go. With windbox customs, it gets rid of precise spacing and instead relies on a gimmick to edgeguard opponents. We agreed that any custom that added a wind effect, should be banned.

I agree, customs overshadow the entire purpose of SLHG, on top of being logistically difficult to implement. The only customs I see being legal are Mega Man, DHD, and the 3 heavies (Bowser Claw, Dragon Rush, Wizard Kick).

The 3 major questions I would address in the OP are:

-What about recoveries? Doesn't Heavy Gravity make most of the roster unusable?

-Why use Smooth Lander with Heavy Gravity, why not just Smooth Lander?

-Doesn't SLHG make U-tilts and U-airs OP? Wouldn't Mario and Diddy be broken?

As of right now, I agree on the 5 customs allowed in this mode as well.

Now as for the 3 questions, I'll help add some answers to them. Add to it if you have another point.

1. What about recoveries?
You'd be surprised to discobver that not that many characters get a huge nerf in recovery. We've addressed 4 of them with customs (Mega Man, DHD, Ganondorf, Charizard) And every other character that gets a recovery nerf is still amazing on stage with speed and combos to compensate for it. Now the game allows you to think about how to recover optimally, because now edgeguarding is much more rewarding.

2. Why heavy gravity?
Smooth Lander by itself doesn't change the game by as big of a degree that heavy gravity does. Heavy gravity by itself affects the combo and recovery game more than smooth lander, but with the decreased landing lag provided by the SL badge, comboes are now way more possible. Combined they speed up the game by a considerable amount.

3. Aren't up-tilts and up-airs OP?
Up-tilts still work pretty much the same from Vanilla smash 4. And up-airs allow for combos but are avoidable with DI. In this case, it's your fault if you get caught in an up-tilt or up-air string.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Are any of those recoveries (besides Mega Man's) easily accessible from the challenge board? IMO, we should keep everything simple to unlock on a fresh save without asking them to grind for custom parts. It's the main reason I haven't added them to my SLHG builds yet, even though I already have all the custom moves.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

3. Aren't up-tilts and up-airs OP?
Up-tilts still work pretty much the same from Vanilla smash 4. And up-airs allow for combos but are avoidable with DI. In this case, it's your fault if you get caught in an up-tilt or up-air string.

Unless you're fighting Kirby.

Actually, though, Kirby's U-Tilt is only a bit better here. It only combos into itself 3 or 4 times on most characters. It's just insanely fast fallers and heavies that get wrecked, lol.

 

[VeggieSteel]

@ KeithTheGeek

The customs unlockable from the challenge wall are as follows:
-Pacman's dire hydrant
-Falco's accel-reflector
-Diddy Kong's exploding popgun
-Marth's dashing assault
-Charizards's rock hurl
-Dark Pit's guiding bow
-Mega Man's tornado hold

So, no, unfortunately, there's no guarenteed way of getting any particular custom recovery, with Tornado Hold as the exception.

As soon as you start going down this road, you can't justify giving some characters customs and others not. You can't have an impartial criteria to decide which customs get allowed based on a subjective idea of who's good and bad.

It would also be terrible for the perception of our really small scene, it would be perceived as extremely scrubby.

Anyway, I feel like this discussion is a bit offtopic at this point. Customs are not an integral part of the mode, we can just say the decision is up to the TO whether to allow them or not. I strongly feel they ruin the game though.

I agree with you here. It becomes very dubious to say custom X is okay and because this character benefits, while custom Y is banned because that character doesn't need it. Where we differ with regards to banning is that until something proves itself to be a problem, I don't think we should ban ANYTHING straight out of the gate. I've seen DK players take tournament sets by spamming the wind up-B in vanilla smash, and combined with what @ ArtfulHobbes just said about windboxes in SLHG, there might be reason to consider banning that custom in particular. (I haven't tested it myself, or seen anyone else use it, so I can't say for sure. But from what I have seen, it might be degenerate enough to warrant a ban). Another example is Megaman's standard up B, which is obviously broken as any player can stall to timeout as soon as they are ahead in percent.

I'll admit that at venues, as a side event, it's not realistic to have a bunch of sets made just for SLHG. I'm not sure what the best fix for that is. Maybe have a vote on which setup is best for each character, or something. I dunno, I haven't given this issue too much thought. An outright ban on customs is a tidy solution here. But then, that leaves Palutena and the Mii's as another point of discussion.

Anyway, we can agree to disagree. As soon as online SLHG tournaments start (soon, I hope!), I'll happily play with whatever rules TOs opt for.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

IMO, we should keep things as internally consistent as possible. As much as I like customs, if it's healthier for SLHG for them to be banned (with the exception of Mega Man's Up B), then they should be banned.

 

[nannerham]

Even though its a little late im up for a game if any1 is interested.

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

The customs unlockable from the challenge wall are as follows:
-Pacman's dire hydrant
-Falco's accel-reflector
-Diddy Kong's exploding popgun
-Marth's dashing assault
-Charizards's rock hurl
-Dark Pit's guiding bow
-Mega Man's tornado hold

Also Link's Ripping Boomerang. Which I think could also benefit Link because the muiltihits allow him to follow up with it.

 

[SaturnFrost]

Im fine with the suggested changes to ganon.
I 100 pct agree that the kong cyclone's (and most wind customs) a gimmick...nothing more nothing less. Check Tourney play with custom Donkey kong. Its spammed hard most of the match with no thought behind it.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I had an uh...interesting match with my brother a couple of days ago. This isn't a good showcase of SLHG, unless you want a good reason for why precise control over your character is important.

https://youtu.be/TKN5knFA7_A

 

[Muro]

When Ryn had his stream and we were fooling around with stuff, we realized windboxes needed to go. With windbox customs, it gets rid of precise spacing and instead relies on a gimmick to edgeguard opponents. We agreed that any custom that added a wind effect, should be banned.

I can say the same about bowser. His dash claw or whatever it is requires little to no spacing because it covers so much ground with almost no endlag. You're missing the point though. Rulesets shouldn't have stuff as subjective as that. You're picking a couple of characters you perceive as bad and give them customs to help them, but other people perceive other characters as bad, and they'll want their characters buffed like you want bowser buffed. That's just a bad way to make a ruleset.

@ KeithTheGeek
Where we differ with regards to banning is that until something proves itself to be a problem, I don't think we should ban ANYTHING straight out of the gate.

And that's a fair stance to have. We just disagree on what the best version is but at least you're not cherry picking who you want to be good.

If you can come up with a better way to decide which customs are bad that doesn't include "I think this guy here needs it" then I'd reconsider my stance. Meanwhile here are several different levels of custom legality which don't rely on subjective decisions. All these are subject to the rule "if a move (custom or not) is broken, it's banned".

1. All custom moves are allowed.
2. Only custom moves not randomly obtained are allowed (includes challenge board customs).
3. Only custom moves unlocked from the start are allowed (palutena + miis)
4. Only 1111 build is allowed.

If you want to give an edge to characters with bad recoveries, custom stages are the way to go. Just have the edge close to the blastzone (think duck hunt instead of walkoffs), and that will make the difference in recoveries not show as much. A stage like that would make for a good counterpick for characters with bad recoveries.


Ok guys, I'll try to address the FAQ section today, no promises though because I'm a very lazy person.

 

[ZADD]

Rulesets shouldn't have stuff as subjective as that. You're picking a couple of characters you perceive as bad and give them customs to help them, but other people perceive other characters as bad, and they'll want their characters buffed like you want bowser buffed. That's just a bad way to make a ruleset.

I agree.
If were a TO for SLHG, i would only allow 2 customs: Mega Man and DHD's recoveries. Those are the only 2 characters that really deserve another option (besides Sonic). Ganon, Bowser, and Charizard are all fine default, poor recoveries have traditionally been the bane of heavies anyway.
On another note, I'm pretty sure Palutena is A-Tier in SLHG. She's the new Marth.

I call this combo JUDGEMENT haha

And another against a "Top-Tier"

Please for the love of balance, do not make Palutena's customs legal! She would be more broken than (Brawl)

 

[SaturnFrost]

I can say the same about bowser. His dash claw or whatever it is requires little to no spacing because it covers so much ground with almost no endlag. You're missing the point though. Rulesets shouldn't have stuff as subjective as that. You're picking a couple of characters you perceive as bad and give them customs to help them, but other people perceive other characters as bad, and they'll want their characters buffed like you want bowser buffed. That's just a bad way to make a ruleset.



And that's a fair stance to have. We just disagree on what the best version is but at least you're not cherry picking who you want to be good.

If you can come up with a better way to decide which customs are bad that doesn't include "I think this guy here needs it" then I'd reconsider my stance. Meanwhile here are several different levels of custom legality which don't rely on subjective decisions. All these are subject to the rule "if a move (custom or not) is broken, it's banned".

1. All custom moves are allowed.
2. Only custom moves not randomly obtained are allowed (includes challenge board customs).
3. Only custom moves unlocked from the start are allowed (palutena + miis)
4. Only 1111 build is allowed.

If you want to give an edge to characters with bad recoveries, custom stages are the way to go. Just have the edge close to the blastzone (think duck hunt instead of walkoffs), and that will make the difference in recoveries not show as much. A stage like that would make for a good counterpick for characters with bad recoveries.


Ok guys, I'll try to address the FAQ section today, no promises though because I'm a very lazy person.

I agree with this statement. I think the only heavy who needs tweaking is ganon because he gets 0 horizontal momentum on up B.
I'd rather this be the norm than let any of the other stuff you suggested take effect. I'd scrap customs all together to ensure that gimmicks like Kong cyclone dont ruin SLHG.