Meta Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity (SLHG)

[SaturnFrost]

I agree.
If were a TO for SLHG, i would only allow 2 customs: Mega Man and DHD's recoveries. Those are the only 2 characters that really deserve another option (besides Sonic). Ganon, Bowser, and Charizard are all fine default, poor recoveries have traditionally been the bane of heavies anyway.
On another note, I'm pretty sure Palutena is A-Tier in SLHG. She's the new Marth.

I call this combo JUDGEMENT haha

And another against a "Top-Tier"

Please for the love of balance, do not make Palutena's customs legal! She would be more broken than (Brawl)

The grab resets tho...nasty

 

[Muro]

Ok guys, added a FAQ to the OP. If there are more questions I can add them too.

 

[nannerham]

Guys rob is REALLY GOOD thanks to heavy gravity he can uair FF into just about anything Usmash, Dsmash, grab you name it. I pulled off a nair-> grab-> dthrow-> uair-> FF-> Usmash, its a 63% combo and the fact that his edgeguard game is unreal is just icing on the cake.

 

[Muro]

Played some incredible games with @Marachii, your Falcon is really solid man don't be afraid to be aggressive!

Only now had time to watch it, this match is great. The up b edgeguard by doc is so beautiful :'D it's going to be the new main vid lol

 

[nannerham]

Anybody wanna play a match? It would a nice since i havent played any1 experienced in a game of SLHG lol. If any1 is interested my nnid is nannerham.

 

[blargh257]

Please for the love of balance, do not make Palutena's customs legal! She would be more broken than (Brawl)

sigh...
Statements like this are unfounded and only demonstrate a lack of understanding of what makes MK broken.
But I digress.
There's all this talk about wanting to advance metas, and I for the moment want to do .
(I imagine a lot of you are retching right now.)
So far I have:
Down tilt creates instant pressure and the reaction most people choose is shield leading to a grab.
Hoo hah if done correctly leads to up tilt up air (and maybe something else) on much of the cast.
Nair is incredible and is a free up air or grab depending on percentage, but slight lack of range can be an issue.
If you eat a jump back to the stage with dash attack and do not hit the last hit, some characters die immediately.
Peanuts are good for eating jumps and gimping people if you can hit them.
Down throw down air works up until about 70 on most of the cast but is DI-able starting at about 40. It starts working at maybe 20, I think, but I also think I've gotten it off earlier.
I think dropping the banana in place to cover low recovery could be good for eating jumps, seeing as does not really have any semblance of vertical recovery and can't really go down there without dying.

 

[VeggieSteel]

@ ZADD

Every character I see you play looks solid, but that palutena is looking downright scary! Good job.

@ nannerham

You might also try asking around on the matchfinder thread, or the chatroom on Anther's Ladder (links to both in the OP)

 

[WhatsInAUsername]

So I was messing around with a few characters, thought I might as well share findings, lab work, blah blah blah....
(I'm also wayyyy below you guys in skill level, so take this with a grain of my salt accrued learning this stuff)
Link: Link is a weird case in SLHG. He gets the universal buff of better combos through the gravity and less landing lag, but his recovery is basically reduced to zero. While not Little Mac tier, he struggles to make it back from basically anywhere off the stage, even with tether. Bombs also can't help in this instance, as they last an incredibly long time. (For example, I was launched to the very top corner of the blast zone, grabbed a bomb, used my double jump, up-b'd, and it still wouldn't explode before I hit the bottom blast zone.) His lack of physical offstage presence is slightly mitigated by his projectiles, though his bombs are a bit lacking, since they typically blow people upwards and refresh recoveries.

But enough on negatives, here's the positives!

Link gains a plethora of combo's here, some of which I have yet to explore deeply. All of his aerials benefit from the reduced lag, though fair takes a hit in usefulness as you have to full hop for the entire move. Link's nair can link (pun intended) into tilts, grabs, and aerials very well, depending on the percentages of your opponent. His bair is one of his best poking and combo tools, as it has little landing lag, can lead into itself, dash attack, and ftilt, and is a good follow up for down throw too. His dair, uair, downtilt, up tilt, and up smash all get boosted in power, with dair dealing 23 damage sweet spotted. His tilt's qualities also come over from vanilla. Downtilt is crazy strong, sending people into an upward trajectory, and can lead into up smash/nair/uair/fair. Uptilt is great on fast fallers/heavies. Ftilt is great for spacing aerial approaches, considering how low to the ground most characters stay in short hops (Such as / or ) His grab gets slightly boosted too, as up throw's lowered knockback means he can follow up quite easily. His items also can be used to combo at close ranges, such as the gale boomerang or bomb.

It's kind of mega late, so I'll talk about some other peeps later, and if I'm totally wrong about anything, just let me know : p

 

[SaturnFrost]

So I was messing around with a few characters, thought I might as well share findings, lab work, blah blah blah....
(I'm also wayyyy below you guys in skill level, so take this with a grain of my salt accrued learning this stuff)
Link: Link is a weird case in SLHG. He gets the universal buff of better combos through the gravity and less landing lag, but his recovery is basically reduced to zero. While not Little Mac tier, he struggles to make it back from basically anywhere off the stage, even with tether. Bombs also can't help in this instance, as they last an incredibly long time. (For example, I was launched to the very top corner of the blast zone, grabbed a bomb, used my double jump, up-b'd, and it still wouldn't explode before I hit the bottom blast zone.) His lack of physical offstage presence is slightly mitigated by his projectiles, though his bombs are a bit lacking, since they typically blow people upwards and refresh recoveries.

But enough on negatives, here's the positives!

Link gains a plethora of combo's here, some of which I have yet to explore deeply. All of his aerials benefit from the reduced lag, though fair takes a hit in usefulness as you have to full hop for the entire move. Link's nair can link (pun intended) into tilts, grabs, and aerials very well, depending on the percentages of your opponent. His bair is one of his best poking and combo tools, as it has little landing lag, can lead into itself, dash attack, and ftilt, and is a good follow up for down throw too. His dair, uair, downtilt, up tilt, and up smash all get boosted in power, with dair dealing 23 damage sweet spotted. His tilt's qualities also come over from vanilla. Downtilt is crazy strong, sending people into an upward trajectory, and can lead into up smash/nair/uair/fair. Uptilt is great on fast fallers/heavies. Ftilt is great for spacing aerial approaches, considering how low to the ground most characters stay in short hops (Such as / or ) His grab gets slightly boosted too, as up throw's lowered knockback means he can follow up quite easily. His items also can be used to combo at close ranges, such as the gale boomerang or bomb.

It's kind of mega late, so I'll talk about some other peeps later, and if I'm totally wrong about anything, just let me know : p

Links default recovery seems fine to me. Tether or up b depending on where you are off stage (similar to Samus).
His whirling Leap as an alternative recovery gives good height but the horizontal momentum and control he gets is absurd (similar to how Wario could momentum shift at high percents pre patch).
Tbh, not every character is going to be a dominating force off stage which link definately is on stage(he has alot of early kill options).
Try recovering low using tether.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

When it comes to actual recovery buffs, the only custom I think is absolutely required is Ganondorf's Dropkick custom (excluding Mega Man and Duck Hunt). Dying at 40% near the ledge as Ganondorf is horrible.

Also, in my quest to make Marth good, I found out something kinda silly. Marth gets a tipper F-Smash on Jigglypuff and Ness from a grab release. Getting the tipper F-Smash on Jigglypuff is simply timing it properly so it doesn't whiff due to her odd initial grab release animation. Ness requires frame-perfect inputs to be unavoidable, however, as you need to use a stutterstep F-Smash.

As I discovered more things with Marth, my opinion went from "Marth is still butt" to "Marth is godlike". I do think both Marth and Lucina have their place here instead of one or the other being outshadowed, as their match-ups (when comparing Marth to Lucina) are actually much different compared to vanilla Smash 4. Learning their movement options, specifically Dance Trotting, is required to get the most out of them (and Falcon, Little Mac, Ike). The main loss he has compared to previous iterations is his aerial endlag (not landing lag), as a lot of the things he could do are removed/nerfed (double SH F-Air, Ken Combo, etc). I can see Marth having an incredibly dominant position in SLHG, they just aren't as easy to pick up as before.

Oh, and I'm dropping Peach for Marth. Despite Peach being an incredibly strong character, she isn't a character that I personally like (I actually hate her). I'm in love with Fire Emblem and Marth (he's so cute I can't stand it), so... playing a character I actually like is much more preferred. The reason Kirby isn't my main go-to character here is because, despite not being overpowered, he's really bland once you have his fundamentals down. I'll still pocket Kirby for certain MUs and just because he's Kirby, but I doubt I'll ever invest time into him.

One last thing. Did some testing with @ ArtfulHobbes because I needed to know that Palutena isn't a braindead broken character that could destroy SLHG. To avoid the re-grab from D-Throw > F-Air, either DI into Palutena and up, or outwards away from her. It depends on your characters weight and fall speed, but everybody can avoid the re-grab. If she uses N-Air or U-Air to land, she's usually at a frame disadvantage, so you can throw out a fast move like f6 grabs or most jabs (depending on where you land) to cover yourself.

#leglizemariocircuit

 

[ZADD]

One last thing. Did some testing with @ ArtfulHobbes because I needed to know that Palutena isn't a braindead broken character that could destroy SLHG. To avoid the re-grab from D-Throw > F-Air, either DI into Palutena and up, or outwards away from her. It depends on your characters weight and fall speed, but everybody can avoid the re-grab. If she uses N-Air or U-Air to land, she's usually at a frame disadvantage, so you can throw out a fast move like f6 grabs or most jabs (depending on where you land) to cover yourself.

Brain-dead? No, she has unbeatable frame-traps, but she is by no means unbeatable. I wouldn't consider IC's brain-dead because of wobbling or Marth for the Ken Combo...
(FYI if you DI up and into Palutena after D-thow, that's worse. You are going to eat a nice charged U-smash if you do, bad advice)

Playing against Palutena takes absolute focus. You can't get grabbed, especially near the ledge. Your DI needs to change frequently, because each of Palutena's aerials only covers a small area, forcing her to act preemptively for followups. If you don't know how to fight against her, you're probably going to lose. But the exact same thing could be said for Melee Marth, and even Sm4sh Rosalina. Palutena's whole goal is to shut the opponent out with constant grab mix-ups. She excels at putting opponents into a vortex, and she's one of the few characters that can take a jab all the way to a kill.

But,
Her neutral game is sub-par. Once an opponent is in her face, there is very little she can do about it besides N-air or Counter. She has a very large hurtbox, and isn't floaty despite being light (basically she's combo food). Palutena is very momentum based, she excels at capitalization. Her punish game is off the charts (cool to watch also), but if there's nothing to punish, then she struggles to maintain control. She relies heavily on a reactive playstyle, and rushdown characters are her specialty.

Also more importantly, Rage affects Palutena in a big way (Rage affects base knockback).
When she is at low %'s the base knockback of her throws is very low, allowing D-throw to true combo into D-air (scary). But after 60%, her base knockback is too high for her D-throw to be true, and at that point she needs to read for a followup. When around 150% followups are impossible, this means Palutena is basically a reverse Lucario. (I think thats cool)

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Wut. I just meant that if D-Throw > F-Air across the stage was a true combo with no possible escape option, she'd be braindead hence "I needed to know Palutena isn't a braindead character".

 

[ZADD]

It depends on your characters weight and fall speed, but everybody can avoid the re-grab.

This is true to an extent, but every character is susceptible to Palutena's D-throw vortex, it's just easier to escape it with certain characters. On most characters it's not very true, but for certain match-ups it can really be destructive. (Dedede, Captain Falcon, Bowser, Falco)

 

[Aunt Jemima]

This is true to an extent, but every character is susceptible to Palutena's D-throw vortex, it's just easier to escape it with certain characters. On most characters it's not very true, but for certain match-ups it can really be destructive. (Dedede, Captain Falcon, Bowser, Falco)

Oh god, LOL. Against fast fallers, Palutena's either going to get that re-grab for insane damage or tech chase them across the whole stage.

One thing I really enjoy about Palutena here is that beginner players will get absolutely destroyed and learn this mode isn't just "spam aerials and win". Many people got the initial impression that aerials were unpunishable (or relatively unpunishable) due to the first thread created called "Smooth Lander - the one equipment that should be legal". In that thread, everybody was giving their impressions on either stand-alone Smooth Lander or SLHG, but both were using the old Build 1 which adds an insane about of damage and shield pushback on moves (every 5% is an added 4% damage in Build 1). Luckily, people who come here with that mentality will be purified by Palutena's dash attack and B-Air, as it beats out every move in the game.

Actually, on the topic of her shield, how is her B-Air here? Also, can Palutena stop projectiles by dash attacking into them?

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

Also, can Palutena stop projectiles by dash attacking into them?

Yes, she can. The projectile will either pass through her or clank with the hitbox.

 

[ZADD]

Actually, on the topic of her shield, how is her B-Air here?

Her B-air is a great followup to FF D-air, but it still has a lot of lag so it's unsafe in neutral I'd say.

@ Muro I think you should make this the main video. My friends and I are really getting comfortable with SLHG, and it's only gotten more fun and exciing.

And here's another vid. Frank just picked up Pikachu, but I already see huge potential.

 

[Muro]

@ Muro I think you should make this the main video. My friends and I are really getting comfortable with SLHG, and it's only gotten more fun and exciing.

Ah I like the other one better, yoshi died too easily here. The edgeguards in the other one felt more satisfying to watch. Plus, I just changed it lol.

Btw your second vid cuts off before the match ends. Great content though @ ZADD keep it coming, like you say the gameplay will only get better.

 

[kyoskue]

I haven't really had the chance to thoroughly explore SLHG yet, but I was curious about everyone's thoughts on utilizing equipment pieces to partially alleviate some character flaws such as Link/DHD/etc.'s recovery (without negating it as a potential weakness) instead of utilizing customs for that purpose.

I understand that we don't have any Challenge Board rewards that help these cases currently, but if an "Equipment Shop" mode where you could buy set Equipment with various Bonus Effects were to become available would it be considered reasonable to give these characters with awful recoveries Gluey Ledge/Double-Jump Boost in place of the current Item Hitter one so long as they shared the same stats? What are people's thoughts on Dodgy Dodger/Shield Degenerator?
Again, this is a "what-if" scenario where this is available, I'm just curious how (if at all) people would alter the game with Bonus Effects were the option more widely and immediately available.

Also, does Smooth Lander affect all aerials by a set amount of frames or is it by a percentage?

 

[Muro]

I haven't really had the chance to thoroughly explore SLHG yet, but I was curious about everyone's thoughts on utilizing equipment pieces to partially alleviate some character flaws such as Link/DHD/etc.'s recovery (without negating it as a potential weakness) instead of utilizing customs for that purpose.

from the last page:

Rulesets shouldn't have stuff as subjective as that. You're picking a couple of characters you perceive as bad and give them customs to help them, but other people perceive other characters as bad, and they'll want their characters buffed like you want those characters buffed. That's just a bad way to make a ruleset.

I understand that we don't have any Challenge Board rewards that help these cases currently, but if an "Equipment Shop" mode where you could buy set Equipment with various Bonus Effects were to become available would it be considered reasonable to give these characters with awful recoveries Gluey Ledge/Double-Jump Boost in place of the current Item Hitter one so long as they shared the same stats? What are people's thoughts on Dodgy Dodger/Shield Degenerator?

If there was an equipment store we'd probably be better off having another smooth lander instead of the Item Hitter badge. That's a whole other discussion and it's not even a possibility right now. Also the point of this is not to balance characters, sm4sh already has good balance, we don't need to optimise more for balance. No matter what you do, certain characters are bad and will always be bad. And that's ok, that's how every smash game is, even PM which is actually balanced for competitive play.

Again, this is a "what-if" scenario where this is available, I'm just curious how (if at all) people would alter the game with Bonus Effects were the option more widely and immediately available.

Also, does Smooth Lander affect all aerials by a set amount of frames or is it by a percentage?

I'd consider another badge instead of item hitter. Either another SL or maybe something to nerf shields. SL cuts landing lag by 1/3 on all aerials (not specials). Check the vid in the OP to see the difference (section Tutorial/Info just before the FAQ).

 

[ZADD]

I understand that we don't have any Challenge Board rewards that help these cases currently, but if an "Equipment Shop" mode where you could buy set Equipment with various Bonus Effects were to become available...

That sounds really cool, but I wouldn't get your hopes up. That's something Nintendo would show off well in advance, and they don't even have tournament mode yet.

I'd consider another badge instead of item hitter. Either another SL or maybe something to nerf shields.

My vote would be for Hard Breaker, I miss Dash Dancing

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Dash Dancing is in this game. It just has different inputs.

Marachii, Hobbes and I actually had a discussion about Hard Breaker yesterday. Marachii said something about why it shouldn't be allowed, but I forgot what it was... @Marachii, I summon thee!

 

[SaturnFrost]

Man I wish Hard Breaker was in the challenge rewards. That'd be the icing on the cake for SLHG's competitive viability . That'd also truly be an incentive for for melee players to test out this mode.

 

[kyoskue]

@ Muro : This isn't just establishing a ruleset though, its modifying an engine. I can understand stopping at a certain point because of the unreasonableness of Equipment farming, but I don't see the point in deciding that there's no reason to attempt even slight balancing tweaks for what is essentially a custom gameplay mode if they're available. Just because logic dictates that there will always be a first place and a last place doesn't mean that nobody should attempt to mitigate the gap when possible.
Surely very slight stat tweaks for characters that are generally perceived to be on the lower end of the spectrum would be far less intrusive than allowing custom moves, right?
In any case, I would keep it completely as-is for now and wait for a fairly definitive tierlist to be formed before attempting balancing, but I don't think that it should be completely discounted as a possibility. Just my two cents.

That sounds really cool, but I wouldn't get your hopes up. That's something Nintendo would show off well in advance, and they don't even have tournament mode yet.

Wasn't there an interview or something recently where Sakurai said that he'd like to do entirely new modes for DLC? I mean, sure its unlikely as all get out but whatever.

I guess that the questions that I'm asking is what other Bonus Effects would you include in the SLHG playset if it were reasonably available, and would you alter individual character builds slightly once a generally agreed upon tier list is established in order to increase said characters' viability?

If it were possible I would probably include Shield Degenerator and Hard Braker myself, possibly swapping out one of those with Double-Jump Boost for low-tier characters with terrible recoveries.

 

[Shog]

Man I wish Hard Breaker was in the challenge rewards. That'd be the icing on the cake for SLHG's competitive viability . That'd also truly be an incentive for for melee players to test out this mode.

Do you know by chance the German name of this? Or could give me the desciption? I did a lot of of Crazy Orders with massive payout and I would like to test equipment out.

nerfing shield(there are two shield nerf: Shield Recovery sucks and I think Perfect Shield nerfed. I guess first is better?)

smooth lander (yeah 1/3 less lag and not changing the autocancel makes this nice)

hard breaker (this allows to turn around fast right? Neato)

heavy gravity (combos for day)



I can't wait to try this mode out if its optimized, with a small speed boost to anybody and a small defense nerf. I thik all 4 effects and a small speed boost would make this game, even if some characters might be the best. Too bad Charizard will be really bad in this :/

 

[Muro]

@ Muro : This isn't just establishing a ruleset though, its modifying an engine.

Hmm not quite, it's a ruleset that results in a different metagame that we prefer. You could say HG is an engine change but that would put it on par with a mod, which I don't agree with. I see it as the same as altering between stock and time. Its just an option in the menu.

I can understand stopping at a certain point because of the unreasonableness of Equipment farming, but I don't see the point in deciding that there's no reason to attempt even slight balancing tweaks for what is essentially a custom gameplay mode if they're available.

Who's gonna decide which characters get buffed? By how much? What about the characters that get indirectly nerfed because of these buffs? Balancing is not an easy job, and is not a job for the community. It's up to sakurai/nintendo to do the balancing. We just tweek the rules to play the game in the way we want to play it.

Just because logic dictates that there will always be a first place and a last place doesn't mean that nobody should attempt to mitigate the gap when possible.
Surely very slight stat tweaks for characters that are generally perceived to be on the lower end of the spectrum would be far less intrusive than allowing custom moves, right?

Which gap do you wanna mitigate? between low tier and mid tier? between mid tier and high tier? between high and top? What about the new character that ended up being last and wasn't previously? Do you see the problem with this train of thought?

Sm4sh character balance is good, don't fix what ain't broken.

In any case, I would keep it completely as-is for now and wait for a fairly definitive tierlist to be formed before attempting balancing, but I don't think that it should be completely discounted as a possibility. Just my two cents.

Well yeah there's that too.

I guess that the questions that I'm asking is what other Bonus Effects would you include in the SLHG playset if it were reasonably available, and would you alter individual character builds slightly once a generally agreed upon tier list is established in order to increase said characters' viability?

If it were possible I would probably include Shield Degenerator and Hard Braker myself, possibly swapping out one of those with Double-Jump Boost for low-tier characters with terrible recoveries.

SL and Moon Launcher I feel are needed. If we really had access to another badge with the same stats as Item Hitter (or close enough) I'd either consider another SL or maybe a Shield Degenerator. The Hard Breaker badge from what I've seen doesn't really enable dash dancing. It shortens the turn around time but not nearly enough (but still better). Shield degenerator would nerf shields but not power shields, so a good all around nerf to defensive options would probably be another smooth lander.

I can't wait to try this mode out if its optimized, with a small speed boost to anybody and a small defense nerf. I thik all 4 effects and a small speed boost would make this game, even if some characters might be the best. Too bad Charizard will be really bad in this :/

I think you should try it right now. There's no more "optimization" that can be done unless they decide to release a second challenge panel and we get a better badge for the 3rd slot, which is really the only one you could optimize with current known badge effects (SL and ML already go really well with heavy gravity).

There was a build with more speed and less defense btw, we just all liked this one better. Here is the previous Build 3:
Smooth Lander Brawn Badge, Item Hitter Agility Badge, Default Protection Badge - Stats: -4a/-14d/19s.

Maybe this one is more suited to you and it's actually easier to get.

 

[Shog]

I think you should try it right now. There's no more "optimization" that can be done unless they decide to release a second challenge panel and we get a better badge for the 3rd slot, which is really the only one you could optimize with current known badge effects (SL and ML already go really well with heavy gravity).

There was a build with more speed and less defense btw, we just all liked this one better. Here is the previous Build 3:
Smooth Lander Brawn Badge, Item Hitter Agility Badge, Default Protection Badge - Stats: -4a/-14d/19s.

Maybe this one is more suited to you and it's actually easier to get.

I have a massive amount of equipment, so trying out different modes is no problem for me...you see, I get your point across: I can't simply use random ass Equips and call it a day because other people doesn't have them...

However, if by chance making Shields worse etc. pp. makes this game more fun, I might share my knowledge here and people can try out too. I think this mindset doesn't hurt anybody ~

 

[Aunt Jemima]

If we had the chance to replace Item Hitter, there's not much argument that Shield Degenerator is the one we need. Having another Smooth Lander badge would expand the gap between characters even more. Characters that have low landing lag are now unpunishable whereas everybody else sucks? Having Shield Degenerator would make it so you can't constantly shield every attack heavier characters hit it with (they have pretty decent shield damage), which would probably help them out a bit. Along with that, it's just stupid to have a shield almost broken, run away for three seconds and then it's back.

tfw you hit a shield with Shield Breaker but they throw you during the endlag and the shield is back

 

[blargh257]

I'm not generally one for discussing equipment beyond SLHG builds, mostly because equipment is either absurdly difficult to standardize to the point where there isn't a point, or very, very limited which is what it is here. I prefer the second.
and are pretty interesting, I've been trying to find some of their combos/stuffs.
ROB's up tilt is capable of going for a long, long time but it's hard to connect because of the weird hitbox thing. He's a VERY good edgeguarder, I think double fair actually combos which is wonderful for a character with what is for all intents and purposes unlimited recovery, provided you use it right. His problem is of course how hard he gets comboed, but he has the projectiles to play solid defense if he needs to.
Fair -> fair offstage
Down throw-> fair
Down throw-> fair-> dash attack
Dash attack-> dash attack
Robo hoo hah
Fast fall up air pressure (these dropped attacks rarely actually combo but are good for forcing a shield or other predictable option.)
Down throw-> up tilt on heavies
Wario is... weird. I get up airs, that's obvious, but is there other stuff that I'm too dumb to notice? Maybe the bike or fair do something. So far I know up air and dair can lead to some stuff but none of his throws can.
Dair-> dash attack and some others
Up air-> up air
I'm sort of lost, help.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Wario is sorta like Jiggs in that he has incredible aerial mobility, so I feel like you would want to focus on weaving in and out with fairs and nairs. Bite can be used as a mixup on shield, and because it's a command grab you can also use it to catch opponents on platforms. But this is pretty basic Wario stuff.

As far as specific follow ups off of these things, I got nothing off the top of my head. You could probably string together a couple of fairs because of his mobility. I know his dash attack trips, which is always helpful. From the short time I've used him, both in vanilla and SLHG, I get the impression Wario is about poking your opponent and mixing them up rather than having a strong combo game. Besides the stuff I mentioned here (which are more suggestions than anything else), perhaps this could help?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faMvl0XYXAc

It's meant for vSmash 4 but I think most of this stuff can probably apply under SLHG conditions. I might mess around with Wario some more, I honestly enjoy using him regardless of the mode, I just haven't put in enough lab time with him yet.

 

[SaturnFrost]

Decided to do some farming to unlock the wizards dropkick for ganon. He for sure needs this move if going to be viable. It legit helps his recovery (Feels very similar to how he recovers in melee). Also this further differentiates him from C. Falcon.

 

[ZADD]

Guys, Link is a beast. That D-air spike has so much damn hitstun it's ridiculous.

Also, I really like how SLHG affects Duck Hunt. He might be one of the best characters due to his options, sorta like
(aggressive or campy, depending on the player).

It also helps that Donutz Dedede needs some serious work...

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Just spent a couple of minutes testing Wario's bike set-up under heavy gravity. While you can't run off the stage and b-reverse into the bike as in the video because of heavy gravity, you can short hop off the stage and ram the bike into it that way to pop it up. Everything else in that video should work more or less identically to how it does in vSmash 4.

EDIT: Thanks to the smooth lander badge, Wario can use his down air in a manner similar to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSYYL5kHRqM

Also, I believe if you catch an aerial opponent and then cancel it by the ledge, it will drop them downwards. I did this against @ blargh257 when he was using Ness, although it was by accident and wasn't something I had been aware of.

EDIT 2: Something else I failed to mention is that this seems to be dependent on character's weight and percent. DK seemed to get trapped by real hitstun when I tested this against him, but Jigglypuff and even a character as light as Mario didn't get trapped by hitstun. That said, this still does work as a mixup option- you can fastfall it to cancel the launching hit or not fastfall it to send them flying. Some things you could possibly do after trapping them:

• Jab/tilts
• Bite or grab them
• Up B for some damage
• Maybe even fart on them!

I'm starting to like SLHG Wario. It seems like he has interesting mix-up options and a strong punish game.

 

[Muro]

Decided to do some farming to unlock the wizards dropkick for ganon. He for sure needs this move if going to be viable. It legit helps his recovery (Feels very similar to how he recovers in melee). Also this further differentiates him from C. Falcon.

You could give him all his customs and he wouldn't be viable. Now you got people rallying to be granted an exception too because if ganon can get it, why not my character? My character is also not good etc etc etc

In practice I don't mind it, because ganon is ganon and he's not gonna do anything worthwhile anyway. I see it as those (very few) TOs who banned DDD's infinite chain grab on DK in brawl. It's scrubby, but who cares it's DK. It shouldn't however be a part of the ruleset. If the TO wants to do it then it's his business.

I've talked about customs more than I wanted to lol. I'll drop it now.

For posteriority, here's a recent post by ESAM, on a thread about this same subject (customs have to be all or nothing): link.

 

[nannerham]

Ive been putting some serious time into and oh boy this guy can rack up damage stupidly fast. Thanks to the heavy gravity dtilt is AMAZING it can combo into itslelf and also creates some amazing setups dtilt x2-> late nair->
grab-> dthrow-> fair. He has an amazing offensive and defensive play style, if your opponents character has a bad recovery your stock is pretty much gone since oli can go SUPER deep, its kinda hilarious how badly diddy loses to him, he is a great character, if you're interested in using him be warned he his not a character you can just pick up and play
(Of course) your micromanagement is more important than ever because of how much faster paced SLHG is and you need to know when too back off, oli is still VERY light and can die very early if your too reckless but if your willing put in the dedication to main oli he will get you very far, im happy to say i think i found my main for SLHG. I have to a lot of work to do to push this character.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

For posteriority, here's a recent post by ESAM, on a thread about this same subject (customs have to be all or nothing): link.

Alright, guys, customs are off. Mega Man and Duck Hunt keep their default recoveries. Mega Man can infinite stall. It's scrubby, but who cares it's Mega Man.

 

[SaturnFrost]

You could give him all his customs and he wouldn't be viable. Now you got people rallying to be granted an exception too because if ganon can get it, why not my character? My character is also not good etc etc etc

In practice I don't mind it, because ganon is ganon and he's not gonna do anything worthwhile anyway. I see it as those (very few) TOs who banned DDD's infinite chain grab on DK. It's scrubby, but who cares it's DK. It shouldn't however be a part of the ruleset. If the TO wants to do it then it's his business.

I've talked about customs more than I wanted to lol. I'll drop it now.

For posteriority, here's a recent post by ESAM, on a thread about this same subject (customs have to be all or nothing): link.

I'll say it again...The only Customs i rally for are ones that are buff for characters that struggle at low percents to recover. And i'm pretty sure im not the only who thinks that Ganon with the alt down B is good suggestion (hell, it wasnt even my suggestion to begin with).

I don't main Ganon nor DK so my opinion is unbiased and based off competitive viablity, not what turns my character into a superhero. I main Samus, Marth and Falco (in vanilla and Slhg) and I rarely talk about them anymore because they seem fine to me (without customs) in slhg. I post my opinions on characters with glaring recovery weaknesses in hopes that we as a community take tweaking said characters into consideration.

Also we've always had exceptions to who should get recovery buffs once we found out how the gravity affected each character(mm,dhd,sonic, ect).

It seems like you are upset that noone wants the Kong cyclone.The negative response to this move comes from watching multiple tourneys of it being the only moved used all match when equipped.

I truly don't think that we need to have all customs up for grabs in slhg (as vanilla Sm4sh has had to resort to) because for the most part customs are gimmicky as hell and the game turns into 'who can B move spam the hardest'.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I'd like to steer away from the customs talk for the time being to talk about something else important: Stages!

Spoiler: Long Post on Stage Legality

The main reason is that the couple of times I've played this online, I've mostly stuck to safe bets when picking stages. Basically, Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, and Town and City. However I think this is pretty limiting.

I recall seeing a post on here about how certain characters have trouble getting out of the water in Delphino because of the gravity, however I've just tested it with Charizard and you CAN get out of the water on the transformations you come across it. So can Little Mac, and pretty much every other character with a bad recovery. The thing is, jumping out of the water still leaves you with your mid-air jump(s), the ability to wall jump if your character has that, and access to your recovery moves if necessary. So I don't think the water is a valid reason to ban it. It's an area to either avoid or exploit to your advantage, as it is in vanilla Smash 4.

For the most part, I think most of the commonly agreed upon legal stages in vSmash 4 transfer over to SLHG. I have issues with Duck Hunt, as that stage already heavily favors characters with good aerial mobility and SLHG likely makes the problem worse. Some characters would be able to camp the tree way too hard for it to be healthy. So I would suggest banning Duck Hunt.

Lylat Cruise is perfectly fine. The tilting may mess with recoveries, but it does that in vSmash 4 already and IMO is a valid reason to keep it around as a counterpick at the very least. If it is seriously an issue (which I doubt it is), the layout could easily be recreated via Stage Builder.

Halberd is a fine stage. There isn't any major differences that come into play with Halberd under HG unlike with the 3 stages I've previously mentioned. I think the low blastzone is needed for counterpick purposes anyways. Likewise, I think Castle Siege and Skyloft are mostly harmless.

Now...what about the less ubiquitous stages? Stuff like Pokemon Stadium 2, Orbital Gate Assault, even something as simple as Kongo Jungle that doesn't see a wide amount of use. I used to think PS2 was unfit for competitive play in its current state, but I've played on it some more and I feel like the hazards aren't intrusive enough for a definitive ban. However, the wind transformation is my main sticking point with the stage (and takes away the purpose of heavy gravity) and I wonder if anyone else feels the same way.

OGA, the other Star Fox stage, I just dislike. But I cannot deny the fact that it's perfectly possible (and even reasonable) to play around the stage's hazards and transformations once you know how the stage works. It's far more tame than Wily's Castle or Norfair, despite seeming very hectic on the surface. Despite that, I don't think the stage is even needed, if we include Skyloft and Delphino (and Castle Siege, to an extent) we'd have enough transforming stages.

Kongo Jungle is a personal favorite of mine that I simply wish saw more use. Maybe it's a teensy bit big for 1v1? But it has unique properties that are important to consider without going to the point of making it unplayable. This is one I think should be legal.

Lastly, custom stages. I like the ability to make custom stages. However, there's the issue of distribution that crops up. The only way to distribute stages is either to friend the person who originally made the stage, or for that person to post the stage online, where it's only stored for a 30 day period last I checked. It's certainly doable, but a large hassle. That said we can make some unique things in the stage builder so maybe it should be considered? Even something as simple as making a recreation of Fountain of Dreams!

Well that was a mouthful. I'll just mention I've been playing around with Zelda some, and I'm really liking her. She easily destroys heavy characters and the heavy gravity makes her edge-guarding game stronger, though unfortunately it looks like she's still reliant on reads for most of the small characters. I'm interested in playing around with her kit some more however.

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Stages and stuff

I'd be willing to try out some more unorthodox stages. But many people agree that 5 starter stages is the way to go, as the 3 starter stage wasn't as dynamic. Halberd is also a guarantee of staying.

May I also include Mario Circuit for transforming stages? Me, @Marachii and @ Aunt Jemima played some games on their and besides one hilarious moment the stage itself actually isn't too bad at all.

So I guess we got some stages to test.

• Delfino Plaza
• Castle Siege
• Kongo Jungle
• Orbital Gate Assault
• Pokemon Stadium 2
• Mario Circuit

Now I guess all we gotta hope for is Sakurai to give us some more competitively viable stages via DLC. Hopefully Dreamland and Fountain of Dreams come back...

 

[ZADD]

Alright, guys, customs are off. Mega Man and Duck Hunt keep their default recoveries. Mega Man can infinite stall. It's scrubby, but who cares it's Mega Man.

Sorry but ESAM's argument doesn't do much for me at all, SLHG is already a special case altogether so arguing against special cases is just trivial.

The effects of Heavy Gravity may be awesome, but we need to acknowledge that they are UNINTENTIONAL. Some characters are UNFAIRLY hit by HG, and custom supplementation is kinda necessary if we want people to take this game mode seriously. Sm4sh Vanilla was balanced around its base engine, so it makes sense that ESAM is discouraging individual character-to-character tweaks within that context. Sm4sh was not balanced for SLHG however (Sonic is perfect evidence), so it's much more logical to approach it with some flexibility, especially since better options are readily available, can be standardized, and can make a huge difference.

We choose to change DHD and Mega Mans recovery out of respect for those characters, and for players who deserve a well-rounded character within SLHG. If DHD and Mega Man dealt with this same problem in Vanilla (nonexistent recoveries), I guarantee the entirety of the community would be much more angry about that than they are about all of customs.

Unlike ESAM's argument, we actually have a reason for customs... Correcting a Massive Imbalance due to Heavy Gravity

Ganon's Wizard Kick - Unnecessary, but undoubtedly useful (I don't think it should be legal due to subjectivity)
DHD Recovery - Basically the difference between him being a normal character or not, DHD deserves a real recovery
Mega Man - Prevents stalling and can't be abused, standardizing Tornado Hold is absolutely necessary (and easy)

It's totally fair to say These two customs are legal, no exceptions. We have a damn good reason for those customs, they are solutions to objective issues. Mega Man shouldn't be able to stall, and DHD shouldn't have a worse recovery than Little Mac...

 

[SaturnFrost]

I'd be willing to try out some more unorthodox stages. But many people agree that 5 starter stages is the way to go, as the 3 starter stage wasn't as dynamic. Halberd is also a guarantee of staying.

May I also include Mario Circuit for transforming stages? Me, @Marachii and @ Aunt Jemima played some games on their and besides one hilarious moment the stage itself actually isn't too bad at all.

So I guess we got some stages to test.

• Delfino Plaza
• Castle Siege
• Kongo Jungle
• Orbital Gate Assault
• Pokemon Stadium 2
• Mario Circuit

Now I guess all we gotta hope for is Sakurai to give us some more competitively viable stages via DLC. Hopefully Dreamland and Fountain of Dreams come back...

I like these 4 suggestions, but am hesitant to these 2.

I'd like to see skyloft ...and possibly Wuhu isle in for legal stages myself. If the community doesn't like the idea that's fine. Any thoughts?

You could give him all his customs and he wouldn't be viable. Now you got people rallying to be granted an exception too because if ganon can get it, why not my character? My character is also not good etc etc etc

In practice I don't mind it, because ganon is ganon and he's not gonna do anything worthwhile anyway. I see it as those (very few) TOs who banned DDD's infinite chain grab on DK in brawl. It's scrubby, but who cares it's DK. It shouldn't however be a part of the ruleset. If the TO wants to do it then it's his business.

I've talked about customs more than I wanted to lol. I'll drop it now.

For posteriority, here's a recent post by ESAM, on a thread about this same subject (customs have to be all or nothing): link.

Sorry but ESAM's argument doesn't do much for me at all, SLHG is already a special case altogether so arguing against special cases is just trivial.

The effects of Heavy Gravity may be awesome, but we need to acknowledge that they are UNINTENTIONAL. Some characters are UNFAIRLY hit by HG, and custom supplementation is kinda necessary if we want people to take this game mode seriously. Sm4sh Vanilla was balanced around its base engine, so it makes sense that ESAM is discouraging individual character-to-character tweaks within that context. Sm4sh was not balanced for SLHG however (Sonic is perfect evidence), so it's much more logical to approach it with some flexibility, especially since better options are readily available, can be standardized, and can make a huge difference.

We choose to change DHD and Mega Mans recovery out of respect for those characters, and for players who deserve a well-rounded character within SLHG. If DHD and Mega Man dealt with this same problem in Vanilla (nonexistent recoveries), I guarantee the entirety of the community would be much more angry about that than they are about all of customs.

Unlike ESAM's argument, we actually have a reason for customs... Correcting a Massive Imbalance due to Heavy Gravity

Ganon's Wizard Kick - Unnecessary, but undoubtedly useful (I don't think it should be legal due to subjectivity)
DHD Recovery - Basically the difference between him being a normal character or not, DHD deserves a real recovery
Mega Man - Prevents stalling and can't be abused, standardizing Tornado Hold is absolutely necessary (and easy)

It's totally fair to say These two customs are legal, no exceptions. We have a damn good reason for those customs, they are solutions to objective issues. Mega Man shouldn't be able to stall, and DHD shouldn't have a worse recovery than Little Mac...

You know what..I'll agree on Kong cyclone being legal to keep peace if it means Ganon gets the down B Buff. Like I mentioned before the move further differs him from C Falcon and it gives him a fighting chance of returning to the stage. (Back throw nullifies the move as a recovery option so it does have a downside)