Smashchu's Roster Analysis

[Robert of Normandy]

Gonna have to disagree with you on the second party thing. At least this time around you acknowledge that you might be wrong(which you are), so you're learning.

There's absolutely no evidence characters like Isaac or Saki were excluded because they are second-party. If negotiating with these companies over the use/portrayal were really so troublesome, why were there a number of second party trophies and Assist Trophies in Brawl?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Pokemon is second party. So, getting second party characters is not unheard of.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Pokemon is second party. So, getting second party characters is not unheard of.

Don't bring that up, he has his own little excuse for why that doesn't count.

 

[SmashChu]

Don't bring that up, he has his own little excuse for why that doesn't count.

Too late

Mario-Nintendo/ in house
Donkey Kong-Nintendo
Legend of Zelda-Nintendo
Metroid-Nintendo
Yoshi-Nintendo
Kirby-HAL Labs, a subsidiary of Nintendo
Star Fox-Nintendo
Pokemon-66% owned by Nintendo (33% by Nintendo, and 33% by Nintendo owned Creature Inc.)
F-Zero-Nintendo
Earthbound-Creature Inc.
Fire Emblem-Intelligent Systems
Ice Climbers-Nintendo
Game and Watch-Nintendo
Wario-Nintendo
Kid Icarus-Nintendo
Pikmin-Nintendo
ROB-Nintendo

As you can see, all of the companies involved are owned by Nintendo. The only X factor here is Pokemon. Nintendo does not own Game Freak, but they own 66% of the series. So, they have control over it. I'm not sure why exactly the reason, but here are two explanations. First, it may be this way to make sure the characters will come back in future games. If Nintendo controls all the series, than the characters can come back. Another is to avoid dealing with a lot of outside companies regarding their characters. It may also be coincidence as most of the big series are owned by Nintendo. Most of Nintendo's major series are wholly owned by Nintendo. Either way, Just keep in mind that this could change in the future and is only us looking back.

The issue is that Pokemon is still wholly owned by Nintendo though the Pokemon company.

Again, it may all be coincidence that the second party characters aren't getting in. Right now, Issac seems to be the only contender for a second party series and even if that wasn't an issue I'm not very confident in him. It remains to be seen.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Good roster. I can't argue against any of it.
Woulda liked to see the first party characters Chibi-Robo and Muddy Mole take the place of Sonic and Snake instead of Roy and Mewtwo returning. and I woulda added Paper Mario instead of Doctor Mario, but because ya reasonably limited how many inclusions you considered I agree with whatcha got.

 

[SmashChu]

Good roster. I can't argue against any of it.
Woulda liked to see the first party characters Chibi-Robo and Muddy Mole take the place of Sonic and Snake instead of Roy and Mewtwo returning. and I woulda added Paper Mario instead of Doctor Mario, but because ya reasonably limited how many inclusions you considered I agree with whatcha got.

Well thank you .

 

[AnOkayDM]

No one wins if Sonic is dropped, "Artistic Vision" or not. A major part of Nintendo's history was it's rivalry with Sega an it defined them for ages. Sonic and Mario fighting is pretty evocative of that era.

This. Thinking Sonic will get cut because he's third-party and a "guest" ignores the importance of his rivalry with Mario. Sakurai would be insane to deny gamers the ability to duke it out with gaming's biggest icon and his rival again. It doesn't matter that he was added late. The fact is that he was still added, and added over two highly-requested Melee veterans, who would've been easier to add. He got a stage, he got a good amount of music, and he got a place in the Subspace Emissary, which is more than some other characters got.

Similarly, excluding Mega Man from a roster simply because he's third-party ignores how important he is to Nintendo's past.

 

[SmashChu]

This. Thinking Sonic will get cut because he's third-party and a "guest" ignores the importance of his rivalry with Mario. Sakurai would be insane to deny gamers the ability to duke it out with gaming's biggest icon and his rival again. It doesn't matter that he was added late. The fact is that he was still added, and added over two highly-requested Melee veterans, who would've been easier to add. He got a stage, he got a good amount of music, and he got a place in the Subspace Emissary, which is more than some other characters got.

Similarly, excluding Mega Man from a roster simply because he's third-party ignores how important he is to Nintendo's past.

You can't apply the same rules to third party characters because they are not the same. History matters for Nintendo characters, but it does not matter for third party characters. It means nothing for third party characters. They are guest and not part of the main cast. This is something you have to keep in mind.

The legal and monetary issues can't be ignored either.

 

[bobadz]

I can't say I would have any problems with this roster. Bravo!

 

[FlareHabanero]

Personally I would have a bit of a problem with this roster. The primary problem that strikes me is (not surprisingly) Fire Emblem, and if you want to add bias to the mix Ghirahim, Karate Joe, and Sheriff. But, I'm not going to cry about this roster and force you to change it. It's not going to be 100% right anyway, so bickering over it is hopeless.

 

[---]

Solid roster SmashChu, aside from the usual arguments with some of the more controversial characters that I don't need to lecture you about, I don't see any real issues, but like everyone I do have some nitpicks.

1. Would probably have said that this is an example of a possible roster, or that this is your own roster. Some silly people get flustered if you don't say something like that.
2. Samurai Gohor
3. Man, I still say that Chrom is closer to Marth than Ike.

 

[AnOkayDM]

You can't apply the same rules to third party characters because they are not the same. History matters for Nintendo characters, but it does not matter for third party characters. It means nothing for third party characters. They are guest and not part of the main cast. This is something you have to keep in mind.

Bull****. You can't just say none of the same rules apply because a character is third-party. Sonic makes people want to buy the game. He has an important history with Nintendo. He has no trouble fitting in with the rest of the cast. Third-party characters will operate on the same rules; if anything, the rules will be stricter, but not thrown out entirely. There's no reason to believe third-party characters are chosen through a whole different set of criteria. I have every confidence Sonic will return and there will be at least one new third-party character.

Sonic and Snake both fit all four of the criteria you outlined. They both make people want to play the game, they're both unique, they both fit into Smash, and they both contribute to the series balance. Sakurai didn't ignore his criteria when choosing these characters. If Snake didn't fit in or didn't add anything to the game, it wouldn't have mattered how much Kojima begged for his inclusion; Sakurai wouldn't have added him in. And yes, Sonic was added late. Yes, he was added due to fan requests. But you said yourself, popularity isn't the only thing that matters. Instead of adding two veterans, two much-loved veterans at that, and two characters who would have been easier to add since they already had movesets, stages, music and voices, Sakurai deemed Sonic more important, and there's no way he would have done that if he didn't feel that he could fit in the game.

And you keep comparing third-party characters to guests in Soul Calibur or whatever, but there's no reason to make that comparison. Firstly, Smash isn't like other fighting games. It can't be held to the same rules. If a character is in Smash, it's a very big deal. When someone shows up in Marvel vs. Capcom, it's cool, but no other fighting game has the sort of charm, appeal, or staying power as Smash. It comes once a generation, and each game feels like it's made to be the last in the series. Secondly, characters tend not to get cut from Smash Bros.; all twelve of the original cast have returned in both sequels, and every Melee character except Pichu either returned or was planned to return. Third-party characters were a huge deal and a massive portion of the draw for Brawl, and I don't see any reason to believe the ones that made it into Brawl will be treated any differently than Nintendo characters when roster time comes around.

And you have to look at other factors besides their potential for the four Smash criteria you've outlined. I dunno much about Snake's situation, but the fact of the matter is people will again want to see Mario duke it out with Sonic. There's a reason Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games keep getting made. A Mario/Sonic racing crossover has been hinted at. Additionally, SEGA just announced the next three Sonic games are Nintendo-exclusive. I know SEGA will want Sonic to return, and so will the majority of the fans. Snake originally got in because a developer wanted him to. SEGA and Nintendo are clearly friendly right now, and what better way to highlight that than to have Sonic return in one of Nintendo's biggest franchises? The developers will want him to return, and that will definitely help his chances.

Please, prove me wrong. Show me where Sakurai explicitly says the rules are different for third-party characters, or that they're intended solely as guests. Because until you can, you're making it up, and that's not great for someone who's claiming to look only at the facts.

Oh. Also. This series is huge, and any company would be insane not to allow their character into it. And Nintendo has enough money to buy the rights to any possible third-party characters they'd want for Smash Bros. The legal and monetary issues are essentially nonexistent.

 

[SmashChu]

Solid roster SmashChu, aside from the usual arguments with some of the more controversial characters that I don't need to lecture you about, I don't see any real issues, but like everyone I do have some nitpicks.

1. Would probably have said that this is an example of a possible roster, or that this is your own roster. Some silly people get flustered if you don't say something like that.
2. Samurai Gohor
3. Man, I still say that Chrom is closer to Marth than Ike.

I'm glad you like it. The only perfect roster is your own so nitpicking and disagreements are expected. I'd do the same thing to other people's rosters. It's what happens when you put yourself out there.

Bull****. You can't just say none of the same rules apply because a character is third-party.

Nintendo does not own these characters and, as such, has no claim to their use. This, already means the the character isn't going to work the same as a Nintendo character Nintendo has the right to Little Mac and Shulk and can do what they please with him. They don't own Sonic.

Everything else you said is a moot point.

Also, there is someone viewing right now called Scatmansworld25. Props to you. Scatman is Awesome!

 

[AnOkayDM]

Nintendo does not own these characters and, as such, has no claim to their use. This, already means the the character isn't going to work the same as a Nintendo character Nintendo has the right to Little Mac and Shulk and can do what they please with him. They don't own Sonic.

Funny, I still remember seeing a couple third-party characters and stages and assist trophies in Brawl, even though Nintendo doesn't own them. It doesn't matter. There's still no reason to believe that the rules are anything but stricter for third-party characters. Give me some evidence, please.

Everything else you said is a moot point.

I like how you still provide absolutely no evidence to back up your claim and are therefore able to completely write off everything I wrote in an argument you either can't, don't want to, or are too lazy to argue with.

I liked your posts, I thought they were mostly well-written (though I don't agree with everyone on your roster), but I'm not speaking from a place of bias when I say your third-party arguments are flimsy at best.

 

[buirac]

Well, well, well.

I was really impressed with your theorical justification... Until I saw the roster. And now I don't even know how to begin to express how flawed and mislead it is. Though (in bad English) I'll try to.

1st. All your essay is based in the idea that there won't be essential changes in the progression showed between sequels (although you contradict this statement by saying there won't be third-parties in the next installment). But have you taken a look at Smash geographical position lately? Nintendo, with WiiU, has recently sealed its condition of casual brand in the eyes of its fans. The first Wii could have been just a little blur in Nintendo's Golden Hardcore History, but now it's confirmed: the company has degenerated. By launching a SuperMario each year, like if it was some kind of CoD seedling, or stating that "Zelda will be targeting a broader audience" Nintendo is telling all of us what it has become. Even so, simultaneously, they hired Namco for the making of the next Smash and Sakurai said he would take balance more seriously, while assuring 4th would get more significant changes than the ones Brawl got. What I'm trying to say is that SuperSmashBrosU (and 3DS) is meant to be one of the last strongholds of Nintendo Hardcore Gaming. You could argue that Brawl was bestselling on Wii and that it wouldn't make sense to remove its casual-focused structure, but if you think in the incredible repercussion Melee had (and still has!) among the FGC you will easily see the strategical influence of bringing the franchise back to hardcore (besides, Smash nature lets casual-gamers have lots of fun even without tripping and the like). With this proofed change of direction, we must acknowledge the possibility of NEW RULES to the roster succession.

2nd. You overlook the great differences between roster successions, probably to make it easier to predict Newcomers thanks to a more solid pattern. I guess that's the reason because of which you praise every character choice Sakurai made (even R.O.B.'s!) as if they were objectively optimal. The most obvious gap is the one between real rosters and yours: while the first ones only included two "really fossil franchises" (Ice Climbers/Game and R.O.B./Pit) you anticipate two "really fossil franchises (Takamaru and Sheriff)", two "recently refloated fossil franchises (Palutena and Little Mac)" and two "lapsed characters (Dixie and Samurai)". The concept "recently refloated fossil franchise" is totally inedit in your roster, and the "rotten character" label has only been attributed to Sheik. But since Sheiks existence is a clear attempt to prevent Zeldas logical margination, it shouldn't be counted (though I would agree with Dixie if she ends coming with Diddy).

Progression differences between Original-Melee and Melee-Brawl:

- Original-Melee. Choice probably starts by picking the lacking main characters from the big franchises (Zelda/Sheik, Ganondorf, Bowser, Peach, Mewtwo and Pichu [one of the most emblematic second gen pokemon, for some reason]), then some charismatic fossils are added (Ice Climbers/Game) with a promoting saga (Marth). The rest is arbitrary cloning (Roy, Doc, Young Link and Falco). Were this choices as attractive, popular or representative* as Diddy or Wario? NO, just cheaper.


- Melee-Brawl. In the line of Brawl inputs, this one is too chaotic. DDD and Metaknight are not from a big franchise, but they have Sakurai's benefit for being his creations. Lucario, who is kind of popular, happens to be anatomically similar to Mewtwo, whose moveset casually needs to be recycled. Young Link is getting old. So does Sheik, but there's no WW replacement. Let's refresh Fire Emblem with Ike. Let's include Lucas, R.O.B., Wolf! Paper Mario isn't diverse enough! Bowser Jr. isn't that wellknown! Krystal has too many dedicated fappers! Golden Sun? Psynergy? What is that?

Franchise Proportions (you can easily see here how much interest is put in its balance):

- Mushroom Kingdom: 16% | 20% | 10%
- DK Islands: 8% | 3'5% | 5%
- Yoshi's Island: 8% | 3'5% | 2'5%
- Fire Emblem: 0% | 8% | 5%
- etc.

3rd. You are omitting the announced roster restraint. Sakurai stated it had "pretty much" reached its limit. Any prevision from then on should stablish a limit of Newcomers based on the exclusions that can be made. By the way, this is another reason to justify the direction change I predicted for the saga, since less characters enable more balanced tiers.


4th. As it's true that Sakurai isn't very keen on 3rd-parties, he doesn't have the last word. I can assure you Sonic and Snake were the bestselling newcomers from last generation. Even if he doesn't like to, he must regenerate the "guest" offer for new Smashs (it's an economical imperative). This way the franchise won't get too dirty, but at the same time each iteration is having its own identity, while honouring big sagas that can be ported to Nintendo.

*5th. Representativeness was mostly an omitted factor in Brawl because of the audience it was focused on, but we can clearly see how it influenced Melee's roster (being only 3 [Marth, Game and IC] the uncloned characters who didn't come from Pokemon, Mario or Zelda). If the 1st issue I commented before ends being true, the "representative orientation" of newcomers will come back from Melee. Of course, the representative influence of new characters from Mario, Pokemon and Zelda is quite limited right now (Impa, Bowser Jr, Toad and Waluigi are the only iterative ones that haven't been included until now [shy guy, koopa and the like aside]), so there's room for active inedit franchises like Animal Crossing, Golden Sun, Nintendo Wars (more or less), Paper Mario or even Sin & Punishment. Metroid, DK, Starfox and Fire Emblem may also deserve some refreshment (but adding two new characters for any of them would be crazy, since they are not that transcendent).

6th. Wolf over Krystal was insane. They appear in the same number of games (even if Wolf was born 5 years before), the only difference between them lies in their playability and transcendence in their games (and of course in their attractive).


Now, we don't need to destroy Brawl's roster to enable new characters entrance. If a Skin System similar to Wario's is included, more sacrifices will be unnecessary. Besides, Young Link, Pichu, Doc and Roy could come back without any problem. A Skin System would arrive by the hand of the customization improvements announced for the 3DS. It would be a panacea, a solution to make everyone happy.

 

[FlareHabanero]

You are omitting the announced roster restraint. Sakurai stated it had "pretty much" reached its limit.

Incorrect, he stated that adding more stages and characters and leaving it at that is not enough. He can easily add 50 characters, but there has to be more to it then that, hence why the "new direction" has be discussed.

 

[buirac]

Incorrect, he stated that adding more stages and characters and leaving it at that is not enough. He can easily add 50 characters, but there has to be more to it then that, hence why the "new direction" has be discussed.

Sorry, but it is you who is wrong. You are talking about a different quote.

"probablemente hemos alcanzado los límites de lo que es factible"

This was said by Sakurai in a different occasion refering to roster size and published on http://www.vandal.net/noticia/69996/super-smash-bros-no-aumentara-mucho-su-plantilla/. It means exactly what I already told you.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

- Melee-Brawl. In the line of Brawl inputs, this one is too chaotic. DDD and Metaknight are not from a big franchise, but they have Sakurai's benefit for being his creations. Lucario, who is kind of popular, happens to be anatomically similar to Mewtwo, whose moveset casually needs to be recycled. Young Link is getting old. So does Sheik, but there's no WW replacement. Let's refresh Fire Emblem with Ike. Let's include Lucas, R.O.B., Wolf! Paper Mario isn't diverse enough! Bowser Jr. isn't that wellknown! Krystal has too many dedicated fappers! Golden Sun? Psynergy? What is that?

Kirby is bigger than Star Fox, Mother, Fire Emblem, F-Zero, Pikmin, Wario, Yoshi and all Retro character at least, and head to head against Metroid. Kirby is a big franchise, its inclusion isn't only because of Sakurai, Dedede was actually cut from 64 and Melee because he didn't want to over-represent his own franchise, so it doesn't have anything to do with Sakurai being their creators. Dedede was also one of the most requested characters pre-Brawl, and Meta Knight was very requested pre-Brawl trailer too. These characters were certainly a lot more requested than Krystal, Isaac, Paper Mario and Bowser Jr, not to mention much more important in the general Nintendo view.

Lucario was also decently requested, but his inclusion did shock me, especially since Mewtwo didn't make it. The only similarity they have are their Normal B though

And you should probably read why the Melee clones made it into the game at all to begin with, it was between adding the 6 clones or 1 Dedede, and they chose to make the roster bigger, they couldn't add more due to time constraints.

Brawl's roster was pretty great in the overall image, characters like Bowser Jr, Paper Mario, Krystal and Isaac aren't as important as the majority of the characters that were added. Two of those characters would over-represent the Mario series, Krystal under Wolf is understandable given that Wolf is more important in Star Fox and more recognizable (fun fact, he was considered as the clone of Fox in Melee instead of Falco, but lost due to popularity,) Toon Link is pretty much Young Link, and Sheik is based off of a scraped Twilight Princess art, which makes sense since Link, Zelda and Ganondorf are based off of that game too, Wind Waker wouldn't have had a saying in that matter regardless.

It's also about properly representing all series, which is why Lucas and Ike made it in. R.O.B is of course the oddball, but if you argue against him might aswell argue against G&W too.

 

[SmashChu]

Funny, I still remember seeing a couple third-party characters and stages and assist trophies in Brawl, even though Nintendo doesn't own them. It doesn't matter. There's still no reason to believe that the rules are anything but stricter for third-party characters. Give me some evidence, please

The point you made was that Non Nintendo characters operate by the same rules. The problem is they are not owned by Nintendo. Nintendo can go out of their way to add obscure characters and spread out the roster. They can not do it with third party characters.

You mentioned before that Smash is a different game than Soul Caliber. Yes, Smash is different, but not in this regard. It may be best to understand why a guest character would be removed in the first place. There are three major issues. First is legal. Nintendo has no claim to these characters and copy right laws have sharp teeth. You never know what you and the other company's relationship might be in 6 years. The other is financial. It's clear that company's are not knocking on Sakurai's door. Even inside Namco, characters still go though him. Furthmore, some people don't want their characters in Smash. I also remember reading that Sakurai pushed to try and get Sonic in the game (so if people ever wonder if he listens or not). The ball is in the other compay's court. They know Nintendo will make a lot of money off of this game and they have deep pockets. Your not going to give out your IPs for free. They will charge Nintendo royalties for using their work. This is just the nature of business.

The last thing that is not well understood is the content issue. Take a game set in medieval Europe. It might be weird if knights start using guns or alien start popping up. This is content. It's the world your game is set in. The same is true of Smash. The world is Nintendo. In order to have a strong roster, you need to make limits less the game turn out like MUGAN or worse. Sakurai pointed out how this can be an issue:


"I think Snake and Sonic joining were fantastic. It made many fans happy, and it broadened the Smash Bros arena. However, introducing more non-Nintendo characters willy-nilly will lose the focus of the game, so I also recognise the need to narrow it down."

Hope this addresses your question better. I would like to move away from the topic of third party characters. There is no more to talk about.

I like how you still provide absolutely no evidence to back up your claim and are therefore able to completely write off everything I wrote in an argument you either can't, don't want to, or are too lazy to argue with.

1)I don't like to waste too much time with forum post and I have better things to do. This roster analysis took enough time as it is.
2)There isn't much else to say.

 

[AnOkayDM]

The point you made was that Non Nintendo characters operate by the same rules. The problem is they are not owned by Nintendo. Nintendo can go out of their way to add obscure characters and spread out the roster. They can not do it with third party characters.

I still see no evidence that they operate under different rules. There is not a single reason to believe that third-party characters operate under different rules. Of course the rules are more stringent, but they're still there. Only the most fitting and popular of third-party characters will make the cut. Such as Sonic, and Mega Man.

You mentioned before that Smash is a different game than Soul Caliber. Yes, Smash is different, but not in this regard. It may be best to understand why a guest character would be removed in the first place. There are three major issues. First is legal. Nintendo has no claim to these characters and copy right laws have sharp teeth. You never know what you and the other company's relationship might be in 6 years.

True. However, Konami's relationship with Nintendo hasn't changed, so Snake wouldn't be cut for that reason. SEGA's relationship with Nintendo is quite strong right now, so Sonic would likely return for that reason. And Capcom seems to have a good relationship with Nintendo right now; take a look at Project X Zone and all the Virtual Console games they're releasing. Thus, in that regard, I find Mega Man likely.

The other is financial. It's clear that company's are not knocking on Sakurai's door. Even inside Namco, characters still go though him. Furthmore, some people don't want their characters in Smash. I also remember reading that Sakurai pushed to try and get Sonic in the game (so if people ever wonder if he listens or not). The ball is in the other compay's court. They know Nintendo will make a lot of money off of this game and they have deep pockets. Your not going to give out your IPs for free. They will charge Nintendo royalties for using their work. This is just the nature of business.

Of course not, but like I said, Nintendo has a LOT of money. They can afford the rights, especially if they're just renewing them for returning characters.

The last thing that is not well understood is the content issue. Take a game set in medieval Europe. It might be weird if knights start using guns or alien start popping up. This is content. It's the world your game is set in. The same is true of Smash. The world is Nintendo. In order to have a strong roster, you need to make limits less the game turn out like MUGAN or worse. Sakurai pointed out how this can be an issue:

"I think Snake and Sonic joining were fantastic. It made many fans happy, and it broadened the Smash Bros arena. However, introducing more non-Nintendo characters willy-nilly will lose the focus of the game, so I also recognise the need to narrow it down."

I understand the content issue perfectly well. But as I've said numerous times, Snake and Sonic both fit in Smash, and so would the only other third-party character I find likely, Mega Man. There's a reason I don't think Layton will be in the game.

 

[buirac]

Wariofan1 said:

"Kirby is bigger than Star Fox, Mother, Fire Emblem, F-Zero, Pikmin, Wario, Yoshi and all Retro character at least, and head to head against Metroid. Kirby is a big franchise, its inclusion isn't only because of Sakurai, Dedede was actually cut from 64 and Melee because he didn't want to over-represent his own franchise, so it doesn't have anything to do with Sakurai being their creators. Dedede was also one of the most requested characters pre-Brawl, and Meta Knight was very requested pre-Brawl trailer too. These characters were certainly a lot more requested than Krystal, Isaac, Paper Mario and Bowser Jr, not to mention much more important in the general Nintendo view.

Lucario was also decently requested, but his inclusion did shock me, especially since Mewtwo didn't make it. The only similarity they have are their Normal B though

And you should probably read why the Melee clones made it into the game at all to begin with, it was between adding the 6 clones or 1 Dedede, and they chose to make the roster bigger, they couldn't add more due to time constraints.

Brawl's roster was pretty great in the overall image, characters like Bowser Jr, Paper Mario, Krystal and Isaac aren't as important as the majority of the characters that were added. Two of those characters would over-represent the Mario series, Krystal under Wolf is understandable given that Wolf is more important in Star Fox and more recognizable (fun fact, he was considered as the clone of Fox in Melee instead of Falco, but lost due to popularity,) Toon Link is pretty much Young Link, and Sheik is based off of a scraped Twilight Princess art, which makes sense since Link, Zelda and Ganondorf are based off of that game too, Wind Waker wouldn't have had a saying in that matter regardless.

It's also about properly representing all series, which is why Lucas and Ike made it in. R.O.B is of course the oddball, but if you argue against him might aswell argue against G&W too."



The only fact that I wanted to expose in that paragraph is the anarchy in the selection. There are no laws, as you can see from your own words, in the justification of each character (of course the characters weren't randomly picked! the criteria was)

It's true that I specially hate R.O.B., Lucas and Wolf, since they don't mean anything to me nor to the 95% of fans. The thing is that, using SmashChu criterias, Paper Mario, Krystal and Bowser Jr were more fitting than them (remember PM is from Mario RPGs, which is probably bigger than most of the Brawl's franchises).

Kirby franchise nearly represents 10% of the roster, do you really think its fanbase is equal to Metroid? Do you really think DDD or Metaknight were as requested as Ridley (size = excuse, they are putting him in 4th)? Does Pop Star deserve its place in the tiers? Sakurai had enough self-restraint to avoid biasing the roster in the first two intallments. He lost it in Brawl because it's a careless game overall.

Krystal is, was and always will be more popular than Wolf. Krystal is playable. Wolf is not. Krystal has an important role. Wolf does not. Krystal has lots of videogame inspired moveset possibilities. Wolf has wild-villain stereothipized half cloned moveset. If Krystal asked you to **** her, you would just do, Wolf wouldn't even ask, he would just... do.

Lucario and Mewtwo are both build around the same idea: floaty mid-range focused movement / slow, strong and priorized hits.

I didn't complain about Melee's cloning, I only meant that it is driven by the arbitrary anatomical ressemblance.

Your comparision between R.O.B and Game is offensive. For God's sake, R.O.B doesn't even have a game!

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The only fact that I wanted to expose in that paragraph is the anarchy in the selection. There are no laws, as you can see from your own words, in the justification of each character (of course the characters weren't randomly picked! the criteria was)

It's true that I specially hate R.O.B., Lucas and Wolf, since they don't mean anything to me nor to the 95% of fans. The thing is that, using SmashChu criterias, Paper Mario, Krystal and Bowser Jr were more fitting than them (remember PM is from Mario RPGs, which is probably bigger than most of the Brawl's franchises). R.O.B., Lucas and Wolf were all well liked and well recieved. Do not generalize. Especially ridiculous ones like that.

Kirby franchise nearly represents 10% of the roster, do you really think its fanbase is equal to Metroid? Do you really think DDD or Metaknight were as requested as Ridley (size = excuse, they are putting him in 4th)? Does Pop Star deserve its place in the tiers? Sakurai had enough self-restraint to avoid biasing the roster in the first two intallments. He lost it in Brawl because it's a careless game overall. Kirby is huge man! It's one of Nintendo's most sucessful series! If anything Dedede and Meta Knight should have been added earlier!

Krystal is, was and always will be more popular than Wolf. Krystal is playable. Wolf is not. Krystal has an important role. Wolf does not. Krystal has lots of videogame inspired moveset possibilities. Wolf has wild-villain stereothipized half cloned moveset. If Krystal asked you to **** her, you would just do, Wolf wouldn't even ask, he would just... do. Lol. You serious?

Lucario and Mewtwo are both build around the same idea: floaty mid-range focused movement / slow, strong and priorized hits. That's not how either play at all.

I didn't complain about Melee's cloning, I only meant that it is driven by the arbitrary anatomical ressemblance.

Your comparision between R.O.B and Game is offensive. For God's sake, R.O.B doesn't even have a game! Gyromite and Stack Up. Plus he's important to Nintendo's history.

Oh my gosh....

You know nothing do you?

This whole post reeks of bias and.... GAHH!!!!!

And most of us would not **** Krystal thank you every much.

Either way responses in red.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I do not want to **** Krystal. That's disgusting, she's literally a fox.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I do not want to **** Krystal. That's disgusting, she's literally a fox.

Don't you mean foxy?

 

[FalKoopa]

@buirac
Your fate has been sealed. Be prepared to face the onslaught. Good Luck.

No, I'll not waste my time making a proper reply, atleast for now. I'm kinda tired.

 

[AnOkayDM]

Oh my gosh....

You know nothing do you?

This whole post reeks of bias and.... GAHH!!!!!

And most of us would not **** Krystal thank you every much.

Either way responses in red.

I didn't even know how to reply to that mess of a post.

So I didn't.

 

[buirac]

Oh my gosh....

You know nothing do you?

This whole post reeks of bias and.... GAHH!!!!!

And most of us would not **** Krystal thank you every much.

Either way responses in red.

Sigh.

1st. Everything is subjective, I justify my bias by stating that R.O.B., Lucas and Wolf inclusion was even more subjective. Were they well-received? Certainly not in my circle, though that's irrelevant. The matter with this characters is that they were priorized to a lot of better options (in SmashChu's criteria), I'm sure everyone in the world has three better candidates. By better I only mean more likeable.

2nd. Kirby is not even close to be 10% of Nintendo (in any field) nor is it more popular than Metroid.

3rd. I may have been too subtile for you with the Krystal joke.

4th. I'm pretty sure you are trolling with the Lucaroid issue.

5th. Do you think Gyromite and Stack Up were important for Nintendo? Even if they were, do you think you can consider R.O.B. "has" those games? Even if R.O.B. had that much transcendence in those games, do you think it would even scratch Game's popularity? I mean, Game got outside of Japan.

One last issue, that "messy" post from before was the answer to another messier post. The main one (the first I published) is numbered just like this.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Sigh.

1st. Everything is subjective, I justify my bias by stating that R.O.B., Lucas and Wolf inclusion was even more subjective. Were they well-received? Certainly not in my circle, though that's irrelevant. The matter with this characters is that they were priorized to a lot of better options (in SmashChu's criteria), I'm sure everyone in the world has three better candidates. By better I only mean more likeable. Most people I know love R.O.B., Wolf and Lucas. Don't let bias get in the way. Regardless, your circle certainly isn't the biggest. Besides, "better" is a Relative term. It's subject to change on the individual's wants and desires.

2nd. Kirby is not even close to be 10% of Nintendo (in any field) nor is it more popular than Metroid. It's on par. Your forgetting Japan where Metroid kinda flops. Besides, Sakurai doesn't have to fill any sort of quota. Character popularity, not series success is what matters in most cases. And yes, Lucas and Wolf are quite popular.

3rd. I may have been too subtile for you with the Krystal joke. You weren't subtle enough.

4th. I'm pretty sure you are trolling with the Lucaroid issue. How am I trolling? Lucario is anything but slow and Mewtwo and Lucario play completely differently. I mean they only share two moves.

5th. Do you think Gyromite and Stack Up were important for Nintendo? Even if they were, do you think you can consider R.O.B. "has" those games? Even if R.O.B. had that much transcendence in those games, do you think it would even scratch Game's popularity? I mean, Game got outside of Japan. Was Ice Climber important to Nintendo? Do you know that R.O.B. financially saved Nintendo back in the old video game crash? He's a lot more important than you think. And R.O.B. DID make it to the states and Europe thank you.

One last issue, that "messy" post from before was the answer to another messier post. The main one (the first I published) is numbered just like this. Seemed pretty clean to me.

Responses in red.

 

[buirac]

added.

Responses in red.

1st. As I said previously, this is not a matter of "my friends liked this or that", but if they were better options before they were finally released. I already distinguished two "betters" before: one refering to SmashChus Criteria and one refering to popularity. Lucas, R.O.B. and Wolf were not as popular as lots of alternatives.

2nd. I'm not forgetting Japan. According to gamerankings, the most valued Kirby is Epic Yarn; the best Metroid is Prime, which has ranked between the 10 best videogames in history of humanity (the other two Nintendo sagas in this top are Mario and Zelda). Don't misunderstand me, Krystal Shards is one of my favourite games and I couldn't even get through all Prime, Corruption nor SuperMetroid, but there's no point in discusing this. Just compare the hype between an announcement for Kirby and Metroid.

3rd. Sigh.

4th. The way they play is irrelevant, I'm sure Ganondorf and CFalcon play different too. I'm talking about their habilities, about the structure they were build with. Lucario is clearly based on Mewtwo, Bs and floatiness proof this fact by themselves.

5th. I was defending Game, not IC, from "R.O.B is of course the oddball, but if you argue against him might aswell argue against G&W too.". Besides, R.O.B. is not as interesting for the gameplay as IC, nor is it as popular as LMac. It is Nintendo's selfish whim, there was no Law in its choice.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

added.

1st. As I said previously, this is not a matter of "my friends liked this or that", but if they were better options before they were finally released. I already distinguished two "betters" before: one refering to SmashChus Criteria and one refering to popularity. Lucas, R.O.B. and Wolf were not as popular as lots of alternatives. Yeah they were actually. Well.... At least Lucas and Wolf were. Lucas was the go-to Moher newcomer while Wolf did in fact have more requests than Krystal. Especially in Japan.R.O.B. was added for different reasons.

2nd. I'm not forgetting Japan. According to gamerankings, the most valued Kirby is Epic Yarn; the best Metroid is Prime, which has ranked between the 10 best videogames in history of humanity (the other two Nintendo sagas in this top are Mario and Zelda). Don't misunderstand me, Krystal Shards is one of my favourite games and I couldn't even get through all Prime, Corruption nor SuperMetroid, but there's no point in discusing this. Just compare the hype between an announcement for Kirby and Metroid. Gamerankings isn't a good source. Just saying. Again. "best" and "better" is relative and changes from person to person. Null point. Lol "Krystal" shards. Kirby doesn't get as much hype as Metroid because we don't get as many Metroid titles. THAT should say something about which sells better and thus is more popular.

3rd. Sigh. Your welcome.

4th. The way they play is irrelevant, I'm sure Ganondorf and CFalcon play different too. I'm talking about their habilities, about the structure they were build with. Lucario is clearly based on Mewtwo, Bs and floatiness proof this fact by themselves. Samus and Falcon have the same up tilts. DEY MUST BE BASED ON EACH OTHER ZOMG!111111 One or two qualities that they share doesn't really count for much. Especially when EVERY OTHER MOVE AND QUALITY is different. Lucario didn't replace Mewtwo. Lucario is not a Mewtwo clone. That is fact.

5th. I was defending Game, not IC, from "R.O.B is of course the oddball, but if you argue against him might aswell argue against G&W too.". Besides, R.O.B. is not as interesting for the gameplay as IC, nor is it as popular as LMac. It is Nintendo's selfish whim, there was no Law in its choice. R.O.B. was added for the same reason G&W was. He was meant to be a throwback to Nintendo's old hardware.G&W was not requested AT ALL before Melee. The character didn't even quite exist yet. G&W didn't even gain an identity before Melee. And R.O.B.'s boosters are hella fun and interesting. Regardless, you just threw out my argument because you didn't want to accept your loss. My point still stands.

Are you trolling sir?

 

[Deleted member]

Hope this addresses your question better. I would like to move away from the topic of third party characters. There is no more to talk about.

Well that's too bad. I actually had a lot to say about that particular section

All I will say in the subject is that I can see where you're coming from, but I can't say that these points have changed my thoughts on third-parties overall (except for perhaps strengthening my doubt on Pac-Man).

 

[AnOkayDM]

5th. Do you think Gyromite and Stack Up were important for Nintendo? Even if they were, do you think you can consider R.O.B. "has" those games? Even if R.O.B. had that much transcendence in those games, do you think it would even scratch Game's popularity? I mean, Game got outside of Japan.

R.O.B. saved gaming.

Like, he is literally the reason video games exist today.

If ANYONE deserves recognition for being important to Nintendo's history, it's him.

Nice try though!

 

[buirac]

1st. I had like to know which is your source for the Krystal-Wolf popularity comparision. Since I don't have one (except my own experience), my points are only theorical, though they are (for the moment) way more powerful than your empty affirmation. No one asked for more Mother in the first place, and it ends getting a newcomer that won't make people want to play the game, because it's not wellknown enough and because it doesn't add anything new to the gameplay.

2nd. You keep "nullifying" my points but are not giving any argument. The fact more Kirby games are made just exposes less ressources are put in their development. You know you've got critics, economics, hype and common sense in favor of Metroid, why don't you admit you are wrong?

3rd. : /

4th. It's funny that you ask. When I was a kid I used to call Samus and CFalcon "brothers", as they were side by side on the original roster and shared futuristic thematic and anatomical ressemblance. Is it coincidence that they share one move? I don't think so. Isn't it easier to create CFalcon if you have already created Samus model than if you only have Pikachu's? I'm sure CFalcon was partly inspired on Samus (or otherwise), and they are not clones at all. The same is true for Mewtwo-Lucario, but Mewtwo was way more influential on its "brother" creation.

5th. You are wrong. Your last argument was that R.O.B. is important "for Nintendo", not for us. Even if Game wasn't requested it could be easily acknowledged for its historical popularity and moveset possibilities. This is not the case for R.O.B. (neither for Lucas). When R.O.B. was out you (most probably) wouldn't identify its character nor its attacks. This is my answer: R.O.B. got in because Nintendo got nostalgic. Look at his role in Subspace Emisary. This nightmare, if the "direction change" is given, won't happen again.


And no, I'm not trolling, I would never take Smash slightly.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

1st. I had like to know which is your source for the Krystal-Wolf popularity comparision. Since I don't have one (except my own experience), my points are only theorical, though they are (for the moment) way more powerful than your empty affirmation. No one asked for more Mother in the first place, and it ends getting a newcomer that won't make people want to play the game, because it's not wellknown enough and because it doesn't add anything new to the gameplay. You can look around here or on old polls. Wolf had lots more supporters than Krystal. Lucas was a really popular request in Japan. I like how you accuse me of empty affirmation when you use friends as support and spout of things that just aren't true.

2nd. You keep "nullifying" my points but are not giving any argument. The fact more Kirby games are made just exposes less ressources are put in their development. You know you've got critics, economics, hype and common sense in favor of Metroid, why don't you admit you are wrong? Or you know. Kirby games are easier to make and make more money. The rest of your post is nonsense.

3rd. : / Lol.

4th. It's funny that you ask. When I was a kid I used to call Samus and CFalcon "brothers", as they were side by side on the original roster and shared futuristic thematic and anatomical ressemblance. Is it coincidence that they share one move? I don't think so. Isn't it easier to create CFalcon if you have already created Samus model than if you only have Pikachu's? I'm sure CFalcon was partly inspired on Samus (or otherwise), and they are not clones at all. The same is true for Mewtwo-Lucario, but Mewtwo was way more influential on its "brother" creation. I think your spouting nonsense here. There is absolutely no way to prove that.

5th. You are wrong. Your last argument was that R.O.B. is important "for Nintendo", not for us. Even if Game wasn't requested it could be easily acknowledged for its historical popularity and moveset possibilities. This is not the case for R.O.B. (neither for Lucas). When R.O.B. was out you (most probably) wouldn't identify its character nor its attacks. This is my answer: R.O.B. got in because Nintendo got nostalgic. Look at his role in Subspace Emisary. This nightmare, if the "direction change" is given, won't happen again. Historical popularity? You just contradicted yourself in the same sentence! XD I can't even take you seriously any more! I'm laughing too hard.


And no, I'm not trolling, I would never take Smash slightly. Pretty sure you are.

Golden's gotta see this. He'll crack up.

 

[AnOkayDM]

No one asked for more Mother in the first place, and it ends getting a newcomer that won't make people want to play the game, because it's not wellknown enough and because it doesn't add anything new to the gameplay.

Where the hell were you pre-Brawl? 'cause here, Lucas was highly, highly requested. I don't remember much about that period of time, but I know for a fact that Lucas was wanted by many. Just because you have a vendetta against him, that doesn't mean you can pull stuff out of your ass.

5th. You are wrong. Your last argument was that R.O.B. is important "for Nintendo", not for us. Even if Game wasn't requested it could be easily acknowledged for its historical popularity and moveset possibilities. This is not the case for R.O.B. (neither for Lucas). When R.O.B. was out you (most probably) wouldn't identify its character nor its attacks. This is my answer: R.O.B. got in because Nintendo got nostalgic. Look at his role in Subspace Emisary. This nightmare, if the "direction change" is given, won't happen again.

Not my experience. When I unlocked G&W, my first thought was "Who the **** is that?" But I knew who R.O.B. was long before Brawl came out. He's been in a number of games, sometimes as a cameo, sometimes playable, but there is no denying that he is decently well-known, and much more so than G&W before Melee.

Besides, there are a multitude of characters whose movesets come from nowhere or are completely non-canon. The moves argument is tired; stop using it. Of course you can't recognize his attacks; they're made up. But most find eye lasers and rocket flight pretty cool.


Also: waaaah, I didn't like some characters! I think R.O.B. is dumb and I hate that he had a surprise role in SsE as the villain! Quit your goddamn ********. Didn't like it? Too bad. He's in. And at least he GOT a role in the SsE. Hell, the last character added got a role in the SsE, whereas three others didn't.

And by the way, Krystal was never gonna make it in the game before Wolf, so get over it.

 

[buirac]

Golden's gotta see this. He'll crack up.

You got pretty much stuck with your last post:

1st: I'm based on polls too, the same polls I won't bother to look for, just like you. I never used my friends as support, I said my circle was irrelevant. Brawl sold more than 75% outside Japan, so please, accept Lucas was selfish, just like R.O.B.

2nd: Wii Sports is easier to make and make money with. One more thing, I must admit I believe everything you've said until now is nonsense too, that's the reason because of I wanted to clarify things.

4th: There is absolutely no way to prove the sun is rising tomorrow (Hume). But we can try to get close to. Why today's solar behaviour is similar to yesterday's? I'm trying to guess the reasons instead of saying "it was just coincidence". The reality is that you don't have anything better than my nonsense.

5th: Historical popularity is a concept I just invented to refer to a welknown character in which people don't think at the time (I can assure you it makes sense in Catalan language). Your last answer tells me you are kind of desperate to overcome legitimate arguments by insulting my person instead of fighting them reasonably.

 

[AnOkayDM]

1st: I'm based on polls too, the same polls I won't bother to look for, just like you. I never used my friends as support, I said my circle was irrelevant. Brawl sold more than 75% outside Japan, so please, accept Lucas was selfish, just like R.O.B.

Again, Lucas was very highly requested, on this site and most everywhere. And R.O.B. is literally the exact same situation as Game and Watch, except he was actually more relevant than G&W was when he was put in Melee, but have fun staying in denial.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

You got pretty much stuck with your last post:Yeah. I'm not sure what to say. Your points are so biased that its funny. I can barely take you seriously anymore.

1st: I'm based on polls too, the same polls I won't bother to look for, just like you. I never used my friends as support, I said my circle was irrelevant. Brawl sold more than 75% outside Japan, so please, accept Lucas was selfish, just like R.O.B. You have a source for that statement? Lucas was a heavily requested character pre-brawl. Especially in Japan. R.O.B. was a nice throwback to Nintendo's past, so if he was "selfish" than Ice Climbers and G&W were selfish too.

2nd: Wii Sports is easier to make and make money with. One more thing, I must admit I believe everything you've said until now is nonsense too, that's the reason because of I wanted to clarify things.Clarify what exactly?

4th: There is absolutely no way to prove the sun is rising tomorrow (Hume). But we can try to get close to. Why today's solar behaviour is similar to yesterday's? I'm trying to guess the reasons instead of saying "it was just coincidence". The reality is that you don't have anything better than my nonsense. So you admit it was nonsense?

"5th: Historical popularity is a concept I just invented" Stopped reading there. There is no point in arguing things that you made as you can change them whenever you want. .

 

[SmashChu]

Well that's too bad. I actually had a lot to say about that particular section

All I will say in the subject is that I can see where you're coming from, but I can't say that these points have changed my thoughts on third-parties overall (except for perhaps strengthening my doubt on Pac-Man).

I know you were dying to say it, so feel free to post it. Looks like we moved on in a different way. Just a note, I will be gone for a week so I wont get back to it till Friday.

 

[buirac]

Where the hell were you pre-Brawl? 'cause here, Lucas was highly, highly requested. I don't remember much about that period of time, but I know for a fact that Lucas was wanted by many. Just because you have a vendetta against him, that doesn't mean you can pull stuff out of your ***. Give me proof of that. By the way, Lucas was my first main. After that, I realized how stupid its inclusion was.



Not my experience. When I unlocked G&W, my first thought was "Who the **** is that?" But I knew who R.O.B. was long before Brawl came out. He's been in a number of games, sometimes as a cameo, sometimes playable, but there is no denying that he is decently well-known, and much more so than G&W before Melee. Subjective. You simply can't compare the popularity between an international character and a Japanese one.

Besides, there are a multitude of characters whose movesets come from nowhere or are completely non-canon. The moves argument is tired; stop using it. Of course you can't recognize his attacks; they're made up. But most find eye lasers and rocket flight pretty cool. When I play a character I love to execute the movements. Smash Bros was designed to unify Nintendo franchises in a death battle. When you play a character you want to experience some of its specifical franchise. This is nothing new to you, since your mains are Links, whose attacks are the most representative of their world. I wanted to learn more of Nintendo worlds thanks to cannonic habilities in Smash, cannonic habilities made me the fan I am. This is not coincidence.


Also: waaaah, I didn't like some characters! I think R.O.B. is dumb and I hate that he had a surprise role in SsE as the villain! Quit your goddamn *****ing. Didn't like it? Too bad. He's in. And at least he GOT a role in the SsE. Hell, the last character added got a role in the SsE, whereas three others didn't. The only thing I wanted to remark at first was that R.O.B. inclusion was not subject to any law or pattern, he got in the roster in the most arbitrary way. Then people saw I didn't like the fact and I had to justify my dislike.

And by the way, Krystal was never gonna make it in the game before Wolf, so get over it.