Smashchu's Roster Analysis

[Guybrush20X6]

Yes Pac-Man and any other Namco character would technically be a third party character. Plus with Pac-Man's upcoming 3D TV series it stands that, at least in the eyes of Manco's marketing department, Pac-Man is still relevant.

But as many have said, it's Sakurai's call whether he's considered or not. So if he's in it'll be a nice suprise, if not, ah well.

 

[AnOkayDM]

Honestly, I don't like the idea of Pac-Man. Aside from being a gaming icon, what does he have going for him? I don't think his moves would bring much new or exciting to the table, and I think there are many other characters that deserve slots more than him, even from Namco's own games. I feel like most of his support is expectance rather than actual support, and that's a sad way to get into Smash.

 

[Bajef8]

Sonic ain't stale. He'll be in Smash 4. Considering the Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games series is still going on, considering Nintendo and SEGA's newfound partnership, and considering the insane support he had for Brawl, I feel confident saying he'll return. They can also redesign Sonic's moveset into a less rushed affair. I think Snake'll be back too, since Kojima will surely want him to return.

As for Mega Man, if any new third-party characters are added, even if only one third-party character is added, he'll be in.

It's not that Sonic is stale, it's just that Sakurai didn't really want him in the game. It almost sounded like he reluctantly added Sonic going back over the Dojo website. That's a big reason to think Sonic's chances aren't that great anymore. Sakurai wants to add 3rd parties who are more than popular, but actually bring something unique. Mega Man isn't someone who's gonna be unique when he shares many similarities with Samus. 3rd parties gotta stand out since it's already tough to add them. I almost wanna say Lloyd from Tales has a decent chance due to his Japanese popularity and unique (two swords) fighting style he could bring.

 

[FalKoopa]

>Compares Mega Man to Samus.

You just opened a can of worms. Good Luck.

 

[Bajef8]

right? i mean im not saying they're close to the same thing, but i fail to see how he's so unique from Samus. I feel like 3rd parties have the bar set a lot higher than a Nintendo rep. Snake brought an entirely unique move set and character type to Smash while Sonic did a good job as well.

 

[volbound1700]

It's not that Sonic is stale, it's just that Sakurai didn't really want him in the game. It almost sounded like he reluctantly added Sonic going back over the Dojo website. That's a big reason to think Sonic's chances aren't that great anymore. Sakurai wants to add 3rd parties who are more than popular, but actually bring something unique. Mega Man isn't someone who's gonna be unique when he shares many similarities with Samus. 3rd parties gotta stand out since it's already tough to add them. I almost wanna say Lloyd from Tales has a decent chance due to his Japanese popularity and unique (two swords) fighting style he could bring.

Sakurai recently stated that he was pleased with Sonic (and Snake's) addition to Brawl so I really don't see where you get the idea that Sakurai didn't want him in the game.

Sonic will be back because of how involved he is now with Nintendo. Megaman's fate is likely on Capcom's shoulders because I can see Sakurai wanting to add the new most wanted third party to the game. I almost believe Pac-Man is in it too. Not really sure about Snake but I think Sakurai realizes people don't like cuts by now and may try to bring him back because of that. Will Konami still want him in the game?

 

[Deleted member]

The only reason why Mega Man even gets compared to Samus is because they can charge their weapons. Even then, that can be differeniated as Mega Man's Mega Buster can be made into something less powerful than Samus's charge shot and Mega Man can still move while charging.

I shouldn't even have to go into details as to how else Mega Man would differentiate from Samus. Their similarities are almost non-existent.

 

[AnOkayDM]

Mega Man isn't someone who's gonna be unique when he shares many similarities with Samus.

he shares many similarities with Samus.

similarities with Samus.

Okay, let's pretend you didn't just invalidate your entire argument with that comparison. I can think of two similarities. Two. They both shoot beam weapons attached to their arms, and they can both charge their weapons. I don't think Mega Man can roll into a ball, nor do I remember the last time I saw Samus tossing boomerangs and shooting fireballs. Please, enlighten me on the myriad ways in which they're similar, because even with as little as I know about Mega Man, I'm pretty sure he has more canon moveset potential than anyone they could add or anyone already in Smash.

Nevermind that SEGA will want Sonic back, fans will want Sonic back, and Sakurai doesn't seem to like cutting characters, nor does he add characters he doesn't feel deserve it. The Blue Blur WILL be in Smash 4, and will hopefully be better-implemented this time, now that he'll be planned from the start.

 

[Dark Phazon]

It's not that Sonic is stale, it's just that Sakurai didn't really want him in the game. It almost sounded like he reluctantly added Sonic going back over the Dojo website. That's a big reason to think Sonic's chances aren't that great anymore. Sakurai wants to add 3rd parties who are more than popular, but actually bring something unique. Mega Man isn't someone who's gonna be unique when he shares many similarities with Samus. 3rd parties gotta stand out since it's already tough to add them. I almost wanna say Lloyd from Tales has a decent chance due to his Japanese popularity and unique (two swords) fighting style he could bring.

They will be the same if ''Sakurai Makes'' Them the same....

Couldnt put it any more straight forward dunno how many times i have said this.

sorry didnt mean to be rude but Real talk its just the way.

 

[Bajef8]

i mean this coming

The only reason why Mega Man even gets compared to Samus is because they can charge their weapons. Even then, that can be differeniated as Mega Man's Mega Buster can be made into something less powerful than Samus's charge shot and Mega Man can still move while charging.

I shouldn't even have to go into details as to how else Mega Man would differentiate from Samus. Their similarities are almost non-existent.

I mean this is coming from a clear mega man supporter. I understand they are different in many ways, im not stupid. Just sayin 2 arm cannon characters kinda mean hes not extremely differentiated, especially with him being 3rd party. I think the bar is just higher for 3 parties. And about Sakurai not wanting him initially, thats kind of obvious. Snake was in from the start. Sonic wasnt. He only got put in because Sakurai felt like he had to due to the numerous requests he had for Sonic.

 

[Deleted member]

i mean this coming
I mean this is coming from a clear mega man supporter. I understand they are different in many ways, im not stupid. Just sayin 2 arm cannon characters kinda mean hes not extremely differentiated, especially with him being 3rd party. I think the bar is just higher for 3 parties. And about Sakurai not wanting him initially, thats kind of obvious. Snake was in from the start. Sonic wasnt. He only got put in because Sakurai felt like he had to due to the numerous requests he had for Sonic.

I absolutely fail to see how both having arm cannons would work as a detraction against Mega Man at all, especially when as I said before, the similarities are almost non-existence and Mega Man can easily be made completely unique from any character out there. Even with the very, very few similarities, both can function to be unique from each other. Everywhere else Mega Man would be completely different. His fundamental abilities along with his Robot Master powers mixed together are something that can provide a move set that no other Nintendo character could possibly have and if Sakurai does decide to put Mega Man in, Sakurai will makes sure that his move set is something that no other Nintendo character could have.

As for Sonic, Sakurai has never commented negatively on Sonic's inclusion (mentioning the difficulties of adding them doesn't count) and only positively on them. His last comments in regards to them were very positive comments in that he considers Snake and Sonic excellent additions, meaning that after all of these years, he still looks at them favorably. With how much can be done to make Sonic's re-inclusion worth it, it's not that hard to see why he has a realistic shot of returning (not saying likely or probable, just realistic).

 

[Bajef8]

I absolutely fail to see how both having arm cannons would work as a detraction against Mega Man at all, especially when as I said before, the similarities are almost non-existence and Mega Man can easily be made completely unique from any character out there. Even with the very, very few similarities, both can function to be unique from each other. Everywhere else Mega Man would be completely different. His fundamental abilities along with his Robot Master powers mixed together are something that can provide a move set that no other Nintendo character could possibly have and if Sakurai does decide to put Mega Man in, Sakurai will makes sure that his move set is something that no other Nintendo character could have.

As for Sonic, Sakurai has never commented negatively on Sonic's inclusion (mentioning the difficulties of adding them doesn't count) and only positively on them. His last comments in regards to them were very positive comments in that he considers Snake and Sonic excellent additions, meaning that after all of these years, he still looks at them favorably. With how much can be done to make Sonic's re-inclusion worth it, it's not that hard to see why he has a realistic shot of returning (not saying likely or probable, just realistic).

the difficulties of what? all i said is that Sonic was probably the last character added (and probably the reason for the final delay), which logically means he wasn't considered til the fans wet themselves saying put him in. doesn't mean Sakurai can't be satisfied with adding him, just saying he wasnt on the agenda til fans made a big enough outcry. and i'll just agree to disagree with you on the Samus/Megaman debate. you can rub it in my face if it happens, but here's to me saying he won't make it. my money's on adding one more 3rd party and that's Lloyd from Tales. Sonic in my mind is 50/50 on returning. just my opinion.

 

[Deleted member]

By difficulties, I mean the process of fitting in. Sakurai has went on the record to say this:

Adding characters from other series and from other worlds, really, outside the Nintendo universe, is an incredibly difficult process. In some ways it's more difficult from just building a game from the ground up because you're really trying to make everything match and in some ways that creates limitations. I hope that people can understand that's the reason we can't include more characters from outside the Nintendo universe. And, of course, I believe that when you increase the number of worlds, you're also increasing the number of people who could potentially enjoy that videogame and the series that you're putting in there. But there are also problems because having these non-traditional characters in there -- even with just Snake and Sonic -- has resulted in a number of people who do dissent in seeing these characters put into the Smash series. It's not a simple matter of adding as many worlds and characters from other games as possible -- you can't be careless in doing that sort of thing, you have to be careful. Internally and externally, there have been people who have raised objections to it.

To end this Samus/Mega Man debate, there isn't any reason to believe that the very minor similarity will have any impact on Mega Man's chances. By this logic, you can also argue that there are similarities between Lloyd and sword users since both uses swords (even if Lloyd uses two swords, it's still a sword). However, these minor difference won't hurt Lloyd either.

As for what third-parties get picked, we'll have to see what happens here. I'm not going to claim that Mega Man is going to be in or that Lloyd definitely won't make the cut (I actually do think that he's the most likely Namco rep and probably the only realistic one). I'd even argue that Layton is also a real possibility to keep an eye out for. But one thing is for certain, a trivial similarity as the Samus/Mega Man's arm cannon comparison will not be what Sakurai thinks about when deciding on him.

But if Lloyd gets picked, I actually would have no objection considering that any possible third-party has got to be better than Pac-Man at this rate. Eh, tired of this debate anyway.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Hurry up and finish part 6 Smashchu!
I can't take this 3rd party debate any longer!

 

[SmashChu]

Hurry up and finish part 6 Smashchu!
I can't take this 3rd party debate any longer!

Yeah, guess I better get on it. Sorry about that.

 

[Bajef8]

Yeah same. And Sakurai's quote just makes me think Lloyd>Megaman. I feel like he'd fit better, but again thats just an opinion. Smashchu, when you upload your 3rd party section, are you gonna have reasons why the character(s) fits the best as opposed to the others?

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

From SmashChu's analysis, most everyone's predictions seem to come from the first two categories, with only delusional guesses on Category 4. I think the only Category 3 I've seen around with any sort of backing is Takamaru. We don't know how Sakurai will pick his Category 4's, this guy trolls hard.

That being said, I can't make any fair assessments of Fire Emblem, mostly because a)this board has horribly infectious Micaiah bias and b)I'd prefer to sit back and much on the popcorn and let people who've actually played the series duke it out.

 

[Autumn ♫]

This is a very interesting read. I'll be waiting for part 6

 

[AnOkayDM]

Just sayin 2 arm cannon characters kinda mean hes not extremely differentiated

Six sword characters.
Three of whom wield both swords and bows.
One of whom is basically a clone of the other.
And you think two people with arm cannons who would play nothing alike would be a problem?
Hell, let's not forget that we already have a character who uses two swords, Pit! By your very own logic, Lloyd is no more likely than Mega Man based on the superficialities of what main weapon they use. The fact that Mega Man has an arm cannon means literally nothing when Sakurai is deciding who to put in.

I think Mega Man is much likelier than Lloyd for a few reasons.
(1) He has a lot of requests.
(2) He's very important to Nintendo's history and would have very little trouble fitting in nicely with a Nintendo cast.
(3) His moveset potential and his options for playstyles are insane. It'd be harder to make him similar to other characters than not to.
(4) He would make people want to buy the game. Mega Man has a much larger fanbase than Tales.

 

[SmashChu]

From SmashChu's analysis, most everyone's predictions seem to come from the first two categories, with only delusional guesses on Category 4. I think the only Category 3 I've seen around with any sort of backing is Takamaru. We don't know how Sakurai will pick his Category 4's, this guy trolls hard.

That being said, I can't make any fair assessments of Fire Emblem, mostly because a)this board has horribly infectious Micaiah bias and b)I'd prefer to sit back and much on the popcorn and let people who've actually played the series duke it out.

There will likely be 2 in this category. Maybe more. I suspect Sakurai will pick one more and not many people will guess it.

Feel free to just sit back. It may be better. Crazies like me do this though.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Knowing SmashChu, the unexpected characters are going to be Sheriff and Karate Joe.

 

[Deleted member]

Knowing SmashChu, the unexpected characters are going to be Sheriff and Karate Joe.

And that there will be no third-parties, which will rile up a lot of people who believe that third-parties must return (especially those who consider Pac-Man entitled to a spot). Although in a way, I do look forward to his comments in regards to third-parties because his views on third-parties is a contrast from mine.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Can't believe Smashchu's been a member since 2003. Has it been a constant participation in the smash community or did ya just hop back on when the SSB4 hype train rolled in?

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

I've been around since 2001. I lurk a lot.

 

[SmashChu]

And that there will be no third-parties, which will rile up a lot of people who believe that third-parties must return (especially those who consider Pac-Man entitled to a spot). Although in a way, I do look forward to his comments in regards to third-parties because his views on third-parties is a contrast from mine.

My views on third parties are a contrast to most people.

Can't believe Smashchu's been a member since 2003. Has it been a constant participation in the smash community or did ya just hop back on when the SSB4 hype train rolled in?

I made my account and never really liked the place. I started posting here when Smash was announced at E3 2005. I've stuck around because there isn't a great place to discuss this kind of stuff. The fact that I made this in 2003 is why I have such a silly user name. I don't use it anymore.

The hold up on the roster is I'm debating a character.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Well if you want a concise roster, drop. If you wanna avoid a poop-storm, keep.

 

[DakotaBonez]

He must be debating whether or not to include Banjo & Kazooie.

 

[FalKoopa]

He must be debating whether or not to include Banjo & Kazooie.

Or Geno.

 

[SmashChu]

Finally finished it. I'm not 100 percent on it. I'm figuring that I may go though some of the characters I considered but didn't add for whatever reason. That may be an appendix. The image is broken, but that may be an issue for another time. Feel free to debate it and pick it apart!

 

[Deleted member]

One thing is certain, I'm going to enjoy debating this roster. First, however, I'll have to re-read everything you said just to make sure my thoughts are fresh.

 

[FlareHabanero]

OH GEE LOOK TOTALLY DIDN'T EXPECT SHERIFF OF KNUCKLE JOE AT ALL COMING FROM SMASHCHU. NO BIAS WHATSOEVER.

 

[SmashChu]

OH GEE LOOK TOTALLY DIDN'T EXPECT SHERIFF OF KNUCKLE JOE AT ALL COMING FROM SMASHCHU. NO BIAS WHATSOEVER.

What would you expect. I've been saying saying those characters for like a year or so.

 

[BKupa666]

The roster analysis was going so perfectly until the third party part, and even then, that was strong until the discussion of Sonic. It's not a knock against third parties that Sonic was the last character added in spite of his popularity, but an understandable oversight. Sakurai had decided on the roster very early during development, and only ever caught whiff of Sonic's popularity in 2007; fans began supporting him far more wildly after they learned that, because of Snake, third party characters were viable. SSBF brings up this same point in his Megaman thread's OP. I'll speculate further that Sonic was added so last minute because of the fan backlash that would inevitably occur if he was left out, and that, if the fans were listened to regarding his addition, their reaction would be considered in relation to his removal as well. As far as Snake goes, however, that's anyone's guess.

I don't think I've said so in this thread before, but I really enjoy the division of characters into your four categories, since those seem fully accurate; according to Melee interview analysts, Sakurai himself even divided characters between 'popular' and 'unusual.' It's also great to see that character archetypes are noted as advantages for their inclusion, specifically in the cases of Little Mac and Takamaru being a 'boxer' and 'samurai,' respectively.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

I have no grounds for guessing Sack-o-rye's Category 4s. I won't even try. I'm still not particularly convinced that 3rd parties will be given the boot, not just yet. It reeks too much of the 'purity' argument I got when Snake was first revealed. I do think he might size things down, though, I wouldn't even predict that many newbies (not including Mewtwo and Roy if they return), due to the speculation that Sakurai wants to tone down the cast size.

I would also like to mention that Sonic, Mario, and Pikachu actually score pretty tepidly on popularity polls, but that's more of a "I expect them to get in" rather than "I don't like them".

 

[FalKoopa]

Except Sheriff and Karate Joe, I'm okay with that roster.

Kudos for Doc.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Sakurai never stated that he wanted to cut down the cast, he was stating that simply adding more characters and stages is not enough.

 

[kikaru]

In my own bias I'd give your roster a 7/10.

The overall character inclusion is great with picks like Shulk, Palutena, Roy, etc. However, I am saddened by the lack of third party characters but that is simply my opinion.

Three concerns I have are Ghirahim (Which actually isn't that big of a deal), Karate Joe, and Sheriff with Ghirahim being the least.

Now with Ghirahim I feel the biggest issue that could be holding him back is that he never felt like a strong character/antagonist but simply more like a puppet or a cog in a wheel unlike Ganondorf for example. However there's not much else I can add here as the Zelda franchise does not have the strongest pool of characters to select from.

And personally Karate Joe and Sheriff do not fit into the Smash Universe nor do they have any weight to make me want to play them as a character as they both seem terribly bland aesthetically to me (Though I shall assume that someone as old as Sheriff will receive some form of visual updating). I still maintain the stance that I cannot fully judge these characters until I have played their respective games but from an immediate standpoint if I wanted to see a goofy, rhythm based character then I would much rather go for Agent J from Elite Beat Agents as he would be much more appealing in terms of aesthetics, goofiness, and play style (Or even one of the characters from the Japanese counterparts of Elite Beat Agents would be fine as well).

 

[AnOkayDM]

I don't think either of the third-parties will be cut, and I think you're ignoring some factors of Sonic's inclusion in order to support his departure from the series. Hell, I think Snake is a likelier candidate for being cut than Sonic. I'm also confident there will be at least one more third-party character, probably Mega Man.

I really doubt Ghirahim will be in. He's been in one game and he wasn't even the main villain of that game. There are characters that are more important to the Zelda series and deserve slots more than Ghirahim. Impa, for example. Or Vaati. While he's less recent, he's been in more games and would be a nice nod to Toon Link's games.
For Zelda newcomers, I think Impa is the most likely. I see Ghirahim as being in Zant's position for Brawl. He was requested because he was important to the most recent Zelda, but neither of them was important to the series as a whole. Now, should Ghirahim come back, perhaps he could make an appearance in Smash 5 or something, but I don't see that as likely.

 

[SmashChu]

I'll get to all the responses. The reaction seems to be positive towards the analysis and mixed to the roster which is what I expected. I do hope you all enjoyed reading it. I do plan to add a bit more. I can also go into more detail why I picked the characters I did.

The roster analysis was going so perfectly until the third party part, and even then, that was strong until the discussion of Sonic. It's not a knock against third parties that Sonic was the last character added in spite of his popularity, but an understandable oversight. Sakurai had decided on the roster very early during development, and only ever caught whiff of Sonic's popularity in 2007; fans began supporting him far more wildly after they learned that, because of Snake, third party characters were viable. SSBF brings up this same point in his Megaman thread's OP. I'll speculate further that Sonic was added so last minute because of the fan backlash that would inevitably occur if he was left out, and that, if the fans were listened to regarding his addition, their reaction would be considered in relation to his removal as well. As far as Snake goes, however, that's anyone's guess.

Sonic should show you how selective Sakurai is with characters. Sonic was popular far before Snake was ever shown. The only X factor was that people had to lower their expectations because third party characters couldn't happen up to that point. But once Snake was reveiled, it was an all out BRAWL. Sakurai said he had decided the roster back in 2005. It took 2 years for Sonic to be added. We can also tell by the data on the disc that Sakurai planned to add Roy and Mewtwo instead. Why wait so long? I beleive Snake was always suppose to be the only guest. Sonic was added because he was wanted so badely. So we get the Brawl's roster as it is.

How does this relate to Megaman. First, in practice, Sakurai is very selective. In order to analyse any third party character, they must be held to much higher standard. This is why when I see Pac-Man on any roster, I know it's wrong. Sonic blew very other character away. There was no contest, he was easily the most popular character. Megaman isn't. He is in the top 5, but he is just as popular as Mewtwo, King K Rool, or Ridley. So Sakurai may feel it is not worthwile to add in Megaman. Look at it this way. Lets say your playing a game like Skyrim. And all of a sudden, green aliens come and attack with UFOs. You get a laser sword and fight them. This seems pretty out of place. The same is true with third party characters to a degree. They are not part of the main content. If done right, they can add some fun to the game. If done wrong, the game feels like a fan project and loses a sense of quality.

I don't think I've said so in this thread before, but I really enjoy the division of characters into your four categories, since those seem fully accurate; according to Melee interview analysts, Sakurai himself even divided characters between 'popular' and 'unusual.' It's also great to see that character archetypes are noted as advantages for their inclusion, specifically in the cases of Little Mac and Takamaru being a 'boxer' and 'samurai,' respectively.

Thank you. I didn't consider Sakurai saying popular verse unusual so I'm glad I'm in line with that.

I have no grounds for guessing Sack-o-rye's Category 4s. I won't even try. I'm still not particularly convinced that 3rd parties will be given the boot, not just yet. It reeks too much of the 'purity' argument I got when Snake was first revealed. I do think he might size things down, though, I wouldn't even predict that many newbies (not including Mewtwo and Roy if they return), due to the speculation that Sakurai wants to tone down the cast size.

I would also like to mention that Sonic, Mario, and Pikachu actually score pretty tepidly on popularity polls, but that's more of a "I expect them to get in" rather than "I don't like them".

Perhaps. My current thoughts on third parties are it will either be only Megaman or no third parties at all. I think I gave my reason well enough in the post. But, the short version is that these are guest and Sakurai treats them that way, for better or worse. They bring something different to the game, but they tend to get stale. Starwars characters in SC4 are cool, but not in SC5. The same is true for Snake and Sonic going forward. They feel like bloat and the roster gets messy. This was an issue with Playstation All Stars. They added far to many characters outside Sony and the roster becomes a huge mess. Basically, Smash is Nintendo fighting. Some third party characters are nice, but it's all in moderation.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

My problems are pretty much the same as everyone's.

No one wins if Sonic is dropped, "Artistic Vision" or not. A major part of Nintendo's history was it's rivalry with Sega an it defined them for ages. Sonic and Mario fighting is pretty evocative of that era.

Snake has no such links to Nintendo but as a fighter he's pretty damn solid and I'm sure that many of us have since seeing Snake in SSBB have bought a Metal Gear game out of curiosity.


Besides that, I think you make a good argument for Little Mac.