SmashCAP 1: [CONCEPT ASSESSMENT]

[Deleted member]

I fail to see what all of these pokemon can bring to the table against BO. All they do is switch in and sponge **** and than do nothing in return...

you didn't read mine critically then. bulky offense goes for reliable 2HKOs and relies slightly heavier on status effects, stat boosters, and residual damage moreso than other teams. Because of this, bulky offense based teams tend to be highly synonymous with stall teams, and they have many common aspects. the spread and typing I'm using functions to prevent that pattern of 2HKOs as well as punishes the typical variations that use only 1-2 attacks per pokemon. This is visible useful vs very restricted pokemon that are still incredibly useful such as hippowdon, bronzong, celebi, and others that can mirror both bulky offense and stall equally while not adding another wall breaker. indeed, my spread has no chance to be a wall breaker with it's pathetic base attack, but it can still handle almost all of the bulky offense pokemon exceptionally well and most of their stall variants.

 

[UltiMario]

I feel as if we're never going to be able to decide the typing on this. We've all got completely different ideas, and we want to see each idea of ours happen.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Untrue. I would like to point out that I would at least not vote for my own idea.

-Terywj

 

[Deleted member]

I actually like the water/ghost a lot but so far I've been addressing pure utility.

 

[UltiMario]

I want to get this out there. I want to narrow our options a bit.
From what I collect, Ghost is virtually a manditory type here. Ghost is a magnificent type if a good Pokemon has it. It has 2 important immunities, a now-important Bug Restance, and a not-so-important Poison resistance. It only has Ghost and Dark Type weaknesses.

Now, what does this mean? Normal and Fighting are two moves that avoiding saves you a lot, you're not taking Dynamicpunches from Machamp, avoiding Lucario Aura Spheres, and stopping Focus Punch, Explosion, and Rapid Spin in their tracks. These are all common moves, and the most prevalent of them is DynamicPunch and Explosion. Ghost's Bug resistance and Fighting immunity bring it to Bullet Punching, and Will-O-Wisp (something virtually every Ghost carries) brings Scizor, and many other Physical pokemon, to a screeching hult. Rest is a common thing on Bulky Offense, but thats assuming that they're Sleep Talking will get them anywhere. If you can still 3HKO them, you're posting what will probably be too much of a feasible threat for them to do much, unless its like, Crocune with 6 CMs up. lol.

Ghost also hits the following Types, and the notable Pokemon in those types:
Psychic- Celebi, Latias, Starmie
Ghost- Dusknoir, Rotoms

STAB Ghost aint half bad is it? It covers a few IMPORTANT things reliably, doesn't it? Really, I think theres little arguement here that Ghost shouldn't be part of the typing, besides, there are never enough Ghost Types.

So, our two Main Ghost Ideas are Water/Ghost and my own Ghost/Steel. Lets just statisicamafy these guys.

Water/Ghost:
Weaknesses: Electric, Grass, Ghost, Dark
Resistances: Fire, Water, Ice, Steel, Poison, Bug
Immunities: Figthing, Normal
Normal: Flying, Psychic, Rock, Dragon, Ground

Ghost/Steel:
Weaknesses: Ground, Fire
Resistances: Grass, Ice, Flying, Psychic, Bug(1/4), Rock, Dragon, Steel
Immunities: Fighting, Normal, Poison
Normal: Ghost, Dark, Electric, Water

Noticable difference. The huge difference? No Dark Weakness here. I hate Pursuit weaknesses. They suck. So, we either go with the no-weakness Dark combination, or the resitance-bearing Steel. I chose steel.

But lets see how we do on the offensive.

Water/Ghost:
Super Effective STAB: Fire, Ground, Rock, Ghost, Psychic
Not Very Effective STAB: Water, Grass, Dragon, Dark, Steel
No Effect STAB: Normal
Normal STAB: I'm not doing this because I'd have to Color Code this HUGE list, and I'm waaaaaaaaaaaay to lazy for that.

Ghost/Steel:
SE STAB: Ghost, Psychic, Ice, Bug
NVE STAB: Steel(1/4), Electric, Water, Fire, Dark
No Effect STAB: Normal
Normal STAB: Same as last time.

If I bothered making the Normal STAB lists, you'd see that Water/Ghost hits slightly better than Water/Steel by a decent Margin, just like how G/S resists better than W/G by a margin.

What does this all mean? We have two VERY equal types here. They're all countering the same things, and all theoretically accomplishing equal jobs, just my Ghost/Steel is in a slightly more doing the job of stopping SE, or hopefully, even NORMAL effective damage being dealt from quite a few Bulky Pokemon.

Ghost/Steel Explanaiton support fun time!

Non HP-Fire Celebis are dead. You can freely switch in on Explosions and Draco Meteors. Most of the water Types are stuck at Surf, HAX Togekiss and Jirachi tend to not carry SE, or even NORMAL effective moves. And with Ghost's ironically perfect STAB going around, bulky offense either gets resisted or cries.
Some problems though, are Heatran, TTar, and Metagross. Nothing can be done about Metagross, and ONLY 4X moves can remedy Heatran and TTar (If you can outspeed them, of course, or catch them on the switch). Ghost/Steel has its holes, and it has instances where a bulky offense it could NORMALLY counter, has a way to beat it. But this is obviously said for any Pokemon....
Now, one more thing...
Toxic resistance and SR resistance are two things that makes Bulky offense harder, without Toxic (Spikes) or Stealth Rock helping them much. This is why Steel is such an amazing Anti-Bulky offense type. Spikes is the worst thing you can switch into, well, for field effects at least... Another great thing is Sandstorm resistance, which lets you keep your Leftovers until Abomasnow walks in.

I only see one REAL flaw with my typing, and thats a weakness to the ever Omipresent EQ. Fire doesn't scare me as bady seeing as you're top 3 Fire-using Bulky offenders IIRC, are Heatran, Celebi, and Latias. 2 of which are HP Fire. This pretty much leaves outside of that, Electivire's various Fire moves, some random Fire Punchers, and Infernape? EQ (and to an extent, Earth Power) is MUCH more of a threat. EQ is carried on a crapload of things, some of which Bulky offense. The only thing here is if you're faster, you can hope Will-O-Wisp hits, and if you're slower, either switch out or use a move in your arsenal that can take the Pokemon in question down if you have it. Earth Power is pretty much onl going to be seen on Heatran, which will probably be using Lava Plume, Flamethrower, or Fire Blast instead. Again, this is only remadied if Ghost/Steel is ever givena Ground move, and likely that will be no more than HP Ground.

Yeah... Thats really it... I'm not doing water/Ghost because I'd give it negative Bias, so, I'll let you get on that ^.^

 

[Deleted member]

being weak to ground/fire is...awful.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Although everyone against support of my proposed typing will say being Pursuit-weak is more awful. =\

-Terywj

 

[Wave⁂]

The main question about Water / Ghost (and Ghost in general):

Is Pursuit weakness bad enough to make unable to counter Bulky Offense, or is a Pursuit weakness a good "check" on it, like Stealth Rock is to Salamence and Gyarados?

 

[Deleted member]

it's a ghost type, so it can have will o wisp. burn + not switching + good defenses makes pursuit a joke.

 

[Riddle]

you can't burn unless you are faster than the pursuiter. Though I agree it will still do not all that much.

Water/Grass
Weaknesses: Flying, Poison, Bug
Resistances: Water, Ground, Steel
Immunities: Leech Seed
Normal: Everything else

While this typing doesn't seem as good as the Ghost ones it is near perfect for filling the Anti-Taunt role. Lets look at common taunters and their moves:

Aerodactyl - Earthquake is resisted. Rock Slide/Stone Edge is neutral.
Azelf - Fire Blast, Psychic, and Explosion all hit neutrally.
Gliscor - Aerial Ace (lol) is super effective. Stone Edge is neutral. Earthquake is resisted.
Gyarados - Waterfall is resisted x4. Earthquake is resisted x2. Stone Edge is neutral.
Skarmory? - Brave Bird/Drill Peck are super effective off of Base 80 attack.

As you can see this pokemon does a very good job of filling a niche job that should allow stall to more easily take on Bulky Offense. Stall is very commonly beaten by things such as Taunt/DD gyarados or Taunt/RP/SD/Baton Pass Gliscor but it will now easily take down these things.

The other suggestions while more initially impressive have a harder time filling a specific niche and IMO will become slightly better versions of Rotom-A. If we go the Anti-Taunt Water/Grass route we will learn a lot about the metagame. For instance we can find out how BO will combat stall without taunt and how viable a pokemon that fills this niche is.

 

[UltiMario]

Yes, but you're assuming we're only countering the Taunters of bulky offense. You're not doing much to things like Latias, Celebi, Empoleon, Togekiss, Machamp, OR SCIZOR

 

[SpiredMoth]

I think that being Pursuit weak is a good check. If it is pursuit weak, then we don't have to limit it's stats or moves as much to keep this from being balanced.

 

[CRASHiC]

Yes, but we still need to check it against the other pokemon and see how it balances out next to them outside of its goal. A lot of HG/SS was made to stop the rein of Dragons and Psychics. Thus, Scizor, Skarmory, Blissy, and Tyranitar were born. Within their own goal, they were balanced just fine, but next to everything these pokemon were crazy broken in the HG/SS metagame. We will still have to be careful with the stats.

 

[Riddle]

Yes, but you're assuming we're only countering the Taunters of bulky offense. You're not doing much to things like Latias, Celebi, Empoleon, Togekiss, Machamp, OR SCIZOR

I'm also considering making it choice item lock immune. The ability would be:

Level Headed (or w/e) - This pokemon can't be limited in its move-choice.

That way this pokemon would take care of the things that most stall teams can't handle. See my earlier huge post for some scenarios.

Here's how a stall team would handle those pokemon though.

Latias - Once it tricks its scarf onto CAP1 Blissey walls it all day.
Celebi - Blissey or CAP1/Tentacruel if its a leech seeder.
Empoleon - CAP1 does stop this thing. Nobody runs Empoleon on Bulky Offense anyways.
Togekiss - Blissey
Machamp - Skarmory/Gyarados/Physical Wall
Scizor - Stall teams pretty much lol at Scizor. Gyara and Skarmory both do whatever they want to it. Rotom is also a very good counter.

My approach to this is to find out what it is about BO that stall can't counter and provide a counter for that. I think this will ultimately be much more effective than trying to provide a blanket counter for the top threats of bulky offense.

 

[Deleted member]

what dragons were they stopping? thunderwave/wrap dragonite? 2nd gen introduced new pokemon for new pokemon, not to solve problems from 1st gen. This is evident because they solved RBY's problems independantly of the pokemon by toning down thunderwave and changing the critical hit values.

as for stall teams, nothing really laughs at scizor. scizor ****s up a lot of pokemon, and being bad vs scizor right now essentially makes that pokemon unplayable in OU. also latias would never waste a trickscarf on anything other than blissey unless the game went on long enough for the player to find out that there's no blissey.

if you make an ability to overrides choice locks I'm dropping out since there's nothing I can do for you from that point.

 

[UltiMario]

if you make an ability to overrides choice locks I'm dropping out since there's nothing I can do for you from that point.

Unless we all agree to have the stats like 60/60/60 for the Choice stats and make sure it can't learn Trick so it can't do **** with it anyways.

Also, remember, this is a Bulky Offense counter; not Bulky Offense, but really more of a stall counter.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

We had better not be making a Choice-immune ability or I will fricking explode on all of you.

Again if the weakness to Pursuit is so bad I propose the opposite of Water / Ghost: Water / Dark. Switch up the typing offensively and you're set. You're just extremely weak to Fighting-types now.

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

We're just attempting creativity, and GF has done Water/Dark twice now. Unless we plan on doing Super-Bulky semi-decent special attacking Pokemon with high HP and terrible speed.


Also, getting OHKO'd by any fighting move like nobody's business FTL

 

[Circa]

Getting OHKO'd by two of the most common move-types in the game like nobody's business is FTL.

And just because of the commonality of fighting over a simple Pursuit, I would go Water/Ghost over Water/Dark. Although I would personally like a new Dark type, but alas...this isn't the time.

And there's no way I'd vote for anti-choice. Anti-taunt yes, anti-choice no.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Also, in order to counter Bulky Offense you would want a good matching of typings which help SmashCAP 1 on both offense and defense. Obviously types are split into Offensive, Defensive, or Balanced.

Water is clearly a balanced type, and Ghost provides a good defensive typing. It also allows good STAB to attack bulky offensive users.
Meanwhile, having Ghost and Steel, which are both strong defensive typings, proides you with good defenses, but pitiful coverage needed to strike back.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

Getting OHKO'd by two of the most common move-types in the game like nobody's business is FTL.

I wouldn't say OHKO'd by anything. Its more like, OHKO'd by about 7 of the 51 OU Pokemon, 3 of which aren't bulky.
Infernape, Heatran, Mence, TTar, Dragonite, Mamoswine and Metagross. 2 of which have Speed problems, Tran and TTar, which need a Scarf or DD to remedy it repsectively, which, obviously means theres still some leniency. Then theres Dragonite, which carries EQ on the bulky variants, and with that huge Base 134 attack stat, is probably an OHKO unless Will-O-Wisp makes it to Nite first. Ironically enough, ALL of these Pokemon have 4x problems, which may or may not be abused when the moveset is decided. Mence, Mamoswine and Infernape are pretty solid counters, unless they are locked into a move you can safely wall, yet should be SLIGHTLY overlooked for the fact that this IS a bulky offensive counter, not an everything counter, and very seldomly are any of these truely bulky.
Again, Gross is another story, which cannot be remedied.

Everything else either doesn't run a Fire/Ground move commonly enough to make that list, or don't have the solid Power to do the Job. HP Fires won't cut it, Gliscor may be fast with decent strength, but this'll probably stop Gliscor in its tracks, but its also stopping you in its tracks. Flygon could pose some threat, but can't be entirely sure until the stats are done. Gyarados is probably managable if it switches into you, but not so much you switching it to it.....

Also, think of poor Magnezone, that dies to any Ground, Fire, or Fighting attack thrown its way with utmost certainty.


Also, don't act like I'm alone here. Several other things that were submitted here were also ground weak, and people complained less about those!

Also, in order to counter Bulky Offense you would want a good matching of typings which help SmashCAP 1 on both offense and defense. Obviously types are split into Offensive, Defensive, or Balanced.

Water is clearly a balanced type, and Ghost provides a good defensive typing. It also allows good STAB to attack bulky offensive users.
Meanwhile, having Ghost and Steel, which are both strong defensive typings, proides you with good defenses, but pitiful coverage needed to strike back.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

-Terywj

Ghost/Water is hitting more, counter attacking what it can block, Ghost/Steel is blocking a good chunk of Pokemon from doing much, if anything at all. While its doing less damage to oppsing Pokemon, you're also going to RECIEVE less damage.

I also can't tell you how important it is to be Toxic Immune, STealth Rock Resistant, Not Pursuit weak, and being able to deal with Haxachi and Togehax more effeciently.

Eeeeeeeh.....

OK, really, is it me or have we actually narrowed down a lot of things?

Are we really down to just Water/Ghost and Ghost/Steel? Or is Riddle going to try to make a stand with his Water/Grass?

I'm not saying we should have a poll anytime soon. I'm thinking both of these types are extremely viable, its just who proves their point better.

Also, is it me or is it like, me vs. the world on my Ghost/Steel idea T.T

 

[Deleted member]

that's because ghost/steel is stupid. I don't think anything with 2 exotic typings should really exist outside of ubers.

I'm all for the water ghost thing, but I'd like them switched to Ghost/Water. The primary typing really sets the tone for the pokemon better, and I'd like this to be more ghost than water on the basis of how many waters there are and how few ghosts.

I agree that Ghost is better than Dark here if only defensively. ghost is not a very impressive offensive type, which is fine because water is.

edit: once again for practical utility, my ideas for water/ground/levitate and ground/ghost/solid rock are much stronger candidates for what you're attempting at the moment. if the water/ghost ends up being the final pick, make sure you have some way to justify all of its weak points.

 

[Spire]

that's because ghost/steel is stupid. I don't think anything with 2 exotic typings should really exist outside of ubers.

This is the truest statement I've read in this entire thread. This is some good designer logic.

I believe in Umbreon Dent.

 

[CRASHiC]

Is water an exotic type????? Its a starter.

 

[Circa]

Is water an exotic type????? Its a starter.

that's because ghost/steel is stupid.

lrn2rd plz.

 

[UltiMario]

that's because ghost/steel is stupid. I don't think anything with 2 exotic typings should really exist outside of ubers.

First, I'll say this.
Isn't the point to make the best typing possible for a bulky offensive counter? Sure, you're slightly lacking on the STAB super effective side with Ghost/Steel, but its not making a considerable gap considering I find Pursuit weakness to be absolutely horrible. Even ****ty 'ole Weavile could just storm in and ruin you. Its a terrible cooincidence that Ghost is the best type for a Bulky offenseive counter, yet being Puruit weak can ruin that. With that, its Ghost/Dark or Ghost/Steel, and Ghost/Dark, while gimmicky, simply lacks the resistance needed to prosper, hence why Spiritomb isn't OU.

If you are willing to comprimise one of the best type combos in the game, especially suited for ruining Bulky Offense, then I'll shut up and let you. You're trading being able to more easily Take down Heatran, Infernape, Hippo, Mamoswine, Gliscor, TTar, and to and extent, Swampert and Freeze/Heat Rotom; for the HAX Duo, the rest of the Rotoms, Weavile, Starmie, Roserade, Celebi, Lucario, Dusknoir, and Latias. Its sorta stupid to point it out, but we've also got Zapdos/Electivire in the middle, both have advantes, just different Tactics.

Please, tell me if I missed any or put one in on EITHER side that could skew this data, I want to makes sure we get as accurate as possible here.

You gain advantages on ~9 Pokemon. You lose advantages on ~11 Pokemon. This all assumes you can outpredict the foe. You're also losing Toxic immunity and SR resistance. You're not comprimising too much, but its still there. Some of the Pokemon you're gaining advantages on may not even be there if a Ghost/Steel movepool makes it to the point where theres a utility that can take down, the same could be said for Ghost/Water, but the best I can see that would help is Ice Beam, while Ghost/Steel may or may not have the opportunity to get 4Xes on many of its counters.

Now, lets get another chart, shall we?

Ghost/Steel:
Pokemon that cause definate problems: Infernape, Mence, Dragonite, Rotom-H, Mamoswine and Metagross
Pokemon that could possibly cause problems: Heatran, TTar, Flygon, Snorlax, Gyarados, Swampert and to an extent, Gliscor
Total: 12-13

Water/Ghost:
Pokemon that cause definate problems: Electivire, Jirachi, Jolteon, Lucario, Weavile, Togekiss
Pokemon that could possibly cause problems: Any Rotom Forme, Roserade, Gyarados, Latias, Snorlax, and if its Special, Blissey.
Total: 16-17

Don't take this initial one too seriously, I know I'm missing a thing or 2 on my Ghost/Steel list, just can't put my finger on it. I'm also uncertain about a few Pokemon, like... Starmie vs Ghost/Water is a decent tie because of Thunderbolt, and stuff like that.




But yea. All I want is to use the best type for BO countering possible, and as I said, if you don't want to use the best BOC Type in the game, fine, I'll shut up.

If you can prove that Ghost/Water is a better type, that is. It not being "Exotic" is the worst reason I've heard to date. You have been doing is dissing Ghost/Steel rather than actually backing up the type you prefer.
From what I see, I've put more work and hard facts into this thread than anyone else on this board. So yeah.

Edit: I looked up the Water/Ghost support post. The Post. Means there was 1 with actual facts and data, I was trying to collect everything that was said, turns out there wasn't too much.

I noticed one thing. It relies on hidden power FAR too much. Shadow Ball/Earth Power/Surf/Hidden Power Grass|Electric|Fire. And it needs at least 2 of the those HPs to make sure its countering reliably. It also relies on hidden power for things far too bulky for them to really be dented by it, like HP Grass on Suicune.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Ghost / Water will be the called typing for my idea then.

Remember that SmashCAP 1 is meant to be defensive while being able to hit back. I'm meaning around 100-defenses, and probably Pain Split or something. And yes my plan for him is to be special-based.
I just wanna comment on your so called "Threat List" for the Ghost / Water idea:

Electivire, LOL who uses this? Anyways a switch is needed, obviously.
Jirachi, sure it checks SmashCAP 1 but risks an Earth Power to the face.
Jolteon, see above.
Lucario, SmashCAP 1 will switch out.
Weavile, LOL.
Togekiss, Ice Beam puts it at worry before switching in. Thunder Wave is really the only concern.
Rotoms, clearly a threat but won't like switching into a Shadow Ball.
Roserade, Ice Beam puts it at worry before switching in.
Gyarados, what can Gyarados do to it? If it decides to Dragon Dance just promptly Will-o-wisp it.
Latias, can revenge kill SmashCAP 1 with Thunderbolt, but fears Ice Beam and Shadow Ball.
Snorlax, um...switch? Do Snorlax carry Crunch?
Blissey, no special attacker can stop Blissey, so I rest my case.

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

It must be set in stone that you would get Earth Power, then?

Let me check something something....

Palkia is the only Water Type without the Rock or Ground Typing to get Earth Power. Giratina is the only Ghost with Earth Power. what does this mean? Earth Power is associated with a Dragon Typing on both theres Pokemon. All other EPs are associated with Ground and Rock when associated with the Water type.

Earth Power is irrational on a Water/Ghost, seeing as it is not a natural move that Pokemon of either type tends to learn. Theory fail.

Jirachi is back to shrug off your HP Fire. Jolteon is unstoppable, Rotoms definately work if scarfed, or accurately predicted, Gyarados sometimes carries bite, and Stone Edge won't be nice to get hit by either, Latias has HUGE Special bulk and nice Special Attack, It'll beat it, Snorlax carry Crunch, yes.

Also, Porygon-Z beats Blissey.

 

[Circa]

Then you put it into the design of the Pokemon to look as though it would get Earth Power. Simple as that. If you made it any sort of Nymph (which seems to be what most people want as far as looks go) then Earth Power would be a logical choice for its moveset.

Just an FYI, you won't want to switch on Lucario; especially if you get access to Earth Power. That thing is quite the danger to the rest of nearly any team if it gets that SD in, so instead hit it with your best Neutral/SE move and hope you either kill it or it decides to attack, which still prevents it from getting in that SD.

EDIT: Rofl, Gyara carries Bite? What?

 

[UltiMario]

Then you put it into the design of the Pokemon to look as though it would get Earth Power. Simple as that. If you made it any sort of Nymph (which seems to be what most people want as far as looks go) then Earth Power would be a logical choice for its moveset.

Just an FYI, you won't want to switch on Lucario; especially if you get access to Earth Power. That thing is quite the danger to the rest of nearly any team if it gets that SD in, so instead hit it with your best Neutral/SE move and hope you either kill it or it decides to attack, which still prevents it from getting in that SD.

EDIT: Rofl, Gyara carries Bite? What?

Designing a Pokemon around a move, interesting idea, but this could also limit its movepool for the sake of 1 move.

Also, yes. You wouldn't believe what some people do for the hits they want. Some people run Bite on Gyarados

 

[Circa]

Designing a Pokemon around a move, interesting idea, but this could also limit its movepool for the sake of 1 move.

No it doesn't. The thing is guaranteed to get something for STAB, the majority of the other standards from its typings, and then it gets the special stuff from the concept (such as Earth Power, Follow Me (Doubles), and every sound-based move in the game to mention a few it would get if it were a Siren). That's basically how it works, and that leaves it with quite the viable movepool.

Also, yes. You wouldn't believe what some people do for the hits they want. Some people run Bite on Gyarados

Wrong again sir.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

SmashCAP 1 under Ghost / Water is based around an idea of an underwater banshee or siren. Something underwater will be able to manipulate the trenches underwater. All flavor theorymon but whatevs.

And thank you Writer, I was going to post that.

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

No it doesn't. The thing is guaranteed to get something for STAB, the majority of the other standards from its typings, and then it gets the special stuff from the concept (such as Earth Power, Follow Me (Doubles), and every sound-based move in the game to mention a few it would get if it were a Siren). That's basically how it works, and that leaves it with quite the viable movepool.

I blame history for giving us this terrible thing to be used against me.
Also take this from a "Gamefreak" Standpoint. Wouldn't a Nymph be used in a Legendary, and probably Uber status rather than a common Pokemon one?

Don't act like I'm pulling **** out of thin air, you guys have put the exact same arguements against me.

Wrong again sir.

I said some. Some doesn't mean many. Its one of those other moves. Besides, Stone Edge will do the same, except with more missing :D

Edit:

SmashCAP 1 under Ghost / Water is based around an idea of an underwater banshee or siren. Something underwater will be able to manipulate the trenches underwater. All flavor theorymon but whatevs.

And thank you Writer, I was going to post that.

-Terywj

OK, this is more of something I'm looking for.
Just because something is Deepsea, doesn't mean its going to learn Earth Power. Earth Power is exactly what it sounds like. Power over the Earth. All Pokemon that Learn Earth Power have some Type directly related to the Earthy lands itself, Fire(Magma), Rock, Ground, or Grass. This is barring several Ubers, which don't really count because we all know Ubers have things in their gigantic movepools that don't really make sense, unless we make this an Ubers CAP. Wut.

Name 1 Pokemon that gets this move simply from their appearence or Pokedex entry and I'll let Ghost/Water have Earth Power in the debate.

Until a point is proved, and until you're willing to give up the magnificent typing of Ghost/Steel, I wait with a moral lead.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I blame history for giving us this terrible thing to be used against me.
Also take this from a "Gamefreak" Standpoint. Wouldn't a Nymph be used in a Legendary, and probably Uber status rather than a common Pokemon one?

The "Beings:" Azelf, Uxie, and Mesprit are all mystic elves, and none are in the Uber Tier. Hell, only Azelf made OU. A bunch of Ghost-types are random spirits like Dusknoir too.

I said some. Some doesn't mean many. Its one of those other moves. Besides, Stone Edge will do the same, except with more missing :D

Lawl. Gyarados and Bite. It still makes me chuckle.

OK, this is more of something I'm looking for.
Just because something is Deepsea, doesn't mean its going to learn Earth Power. Earth Power is exactly what it sounds like. Power over the Earth. All Pokemon that Learn Earth Power have some Type directly related to the Earthy lands itself, Fire(Magma), Rock, Ground, or Grass. This is barring several Ubers, which don't really count because we all know Ubers have things in their gigantic movepools that don't really make sense, unless we make this an Ubers CAP. Wut.

Name 1 Pokemon that gets this move simply from their appearence or Pokedex entry and I'll let Ghost/Water have Earth Power in the debate.

What about Pokemon who learn moves which don't correspond at all? *Cough*RaichuandGrassKnot*Cough*

-Terywj

 

[Circa]

Until a point is proved, and until you're willing to give up the magnificent typing of Ghost/Steel, I wait with a moral lead.

You can't really be leading if no one agrees with you. Just an fyi.

And as Terywj said, there are legendaries that aren't Uber. Make a Siren part of one of the famous triads and you get something that would be legendary that would most likely fit into OU or lower.

I do have an idea that'd work with Ghost/Water (or Water/Ghost, whatever) for Uber creation though. Charybdis.

 

[UltiMario]

Tis why I said moral.

Whats with you people though?
I've given you a typing, while not extremely offensive, counters a bigger chunk of the Bulky Offenders than Ghost/Water. Is Surf and Ice Beam so crucial its worth getting less positive match-ups and a pursuit weakness for?

 

[Blaziking17]

Whats with you people though?
I've given you a typing, while not extremely offensive, counters a bigger chunk of the Bulky Offenders than Ghost/Water. Is Surf and Ice Beam so crucial its worth getting less positive match-ups and a pursuit weakness for?

Either way, we've never had a Ghost/Steel or a Ghost/Water type-combo, so it's not a total loss.

Personally, Ice Beam is da business; always has been; but ever since the Wide Lens came out, I think Hydro Pump>Surf, especially since Surf now can hit three Pokemon in double battle.

And yes, I know there's no double battle on Shoddy, but doesn't the Wide Lens provide 15% extra accuracy so Hydro Pump will be just as accurate as Surf + more power?

EDIT: I was also thinking of naming this thing. Maybe Nimborek, or Zephorzica, or maybe something better that ya'll can come up with. At least make something to do with clouds and the ocean. :D

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Please save the naming for the correct stage. We haven't even decided the typing yet. Lol.

And uh...SmashCAP 1 isn't going to equip Wide Lens just so Hydro Pump will have better accuracy.
Also, even with Wide Lens it makes it easier to PP stall Hydro Pump out.

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

I'm just asking of curiosity here, because I thought of it.

Would the water typing prevent Will-O-Wisp from being logical? I'm thinking so, but I'm not sure.

+1 For Ghost/Steel

And no, you can't turn this logic around on me because Steel could be associated with Machines, and hence, fire is still logical.

And still, Earth Power makes about as much sense as Will-O-Wisp does. Will-O-Wisp and Earth Power are the two big staples of this Water/Ghost. Neither actually work, or are plausible to have on it. If you can give up those two moves and still be sucessful, fine. Try it.

Another theory for Ghost/Steel is if Anti-Taunt is dropped for, or slashed with, Levitate, could that make it so the lone fire weakness make it more viable, or would it be overpowered with only 1 weakness, a handful a nuetrals, and all those Resistances/immunities? There is a a Muking lot of Fire flying around, so is that one weakness, and the common neutrals given, enough to make it still balanced? Me and a couple of friends that discussed this (but are unfortunately, not participating in SmashCAP), and agreed it wouldn't be broken.... because of Fire, Fire everywhere.

 

[Circa]

So now all that debating's done...can we finally move on to voting? I believe we've exhausted this stage to its fullest, and I know I'm at least ready to move past all this.