SmashCAP 1: [CONCEPT ASSESSMENT]

[CRASHiC]

Steal the best defensive type, and Dragon the best offensive type. Hmmmmm.

Weak to Fighting And Ground
Ice his neutral
Immune to Posion
Everything else is resisted.

Not fun.

Oh. I know. Just give him Spindra stats. I think he'll still be OU though.

 

[Deleted member]

the best offensive types are rock/fighting, which is where my ridicule came from initially. having both is stupid. I basically agree with Writer all over. I'd also like some kind of explanation as to why my spread hasn't really been considered, since it saves you guys a LOT of time theory crafting for poise and balance from all of the things that have already been addressed. I know it's not my project or anything, but I also haven't seen a reason to dispose of it.

 

[CRASHiC]

I think the reason no one has approached it is because a lot of people here (admitably myself included) are looking for something radically new. Its more entertaining, but perhaps at the end of the debating we will come around to more practical straight forward solutions.

 

[Circa]

@Steel/Dragon typing dispute: Ice, Dragon, and Fire are its neutrals. Not just Ice. Weakness to Ground and Fighting is major, especially considering the fact that EQ is the most common move carried and there are a number of things that frequently carry strong Fighting type moves as well. Give it sub-par offensive stats and suddenly that Dragon typing won't be netting it many kills either. Now quit over-exaggerating.

Also, I forgot to mention it earlier but if we went with Water/Ghost (or Ghost/anything really, but especially water) and gave it the anti-Taunt ability, it could make for one hell of a lead. And that draws it away from the BOC role and may even give it a way to fit on to Bulky Offense, which we don't want.

@Mow: I was kinda like others with the whole originality thing, which is why I didn't really bother mentioning it until now. I guess something changed in me today though. Idk. It just seems better and more reasonable the more I think about it, and we can always make it original in design or move set if we wanted to. Typing and stats aren't the end-all after all.

 

[Deleted member]

you guys can do whatever you want, just justify your actions.

 

[9Kplus1]

Steal the best defensive type

Correcting you here, Water is the best defensive type. It's only weak to Grass and Electric, while it resists Water and Ice - two common offensive types. Steel types generally fall to Earthquake and Close Combat as well as Heatran, bulky Waters... well, you know, anything considered "common" in OU.

In all honesty, I'd love a Water/Dragon with 100/90/110/40/60/105 stats. An OU equivalent of Giratina sounds nice, too.

 

[Pink Reaper]

The best defensive typing is Bronzong.

 

[Riddle]

At just 100 base Special attack max EVed, and mas HP EVs and max Special Defense EVs for Tyranitar, it does 56-66 percent damage. That means no switch in.

Assuming this same EV spread as I mentioned to protect you from getting killed by the Surf, Crunch to Mew from Choice Band Tyranitar does 66-77 damage on Mew, still leaving Tyranitar open for a 2 hit KO. Non boosted Pursuit on me staying in does 33-39 damage.

So, you have 2 choices that again come down to prediction. Choose Crunch and set me up for a revenge kill, or not hit me at all, leaving me fine to kill.
Choose Pursuit and get me on the way out, or barely scratch me and then I 2HKO you.
Again, it comes down to prediction. That will either screw you over and leave you with a dead or next to useless Tyranitar or a pokemon set up for a revenge kill.

Again, the goal is to make a counter against Bulky Offense Teams, not make Bulky Offense teams nonviable with a single pokemon.

100 Base SpA? This pokemon is just going to become a part of bulky offense. As Writer said your calcs are completely wrong.



I have a problem with Steel/Dragon. If it has even average attack its going to become part of Bulky Offense like that. Earthquake resistance is really bad as well for stopping Taunt. Gliscor/Aerodactyl/Gyara all commonly carry Earthquake and will easily dispose of this beast.

I still support Grass/Water. Think about it. Its (relatively) unique. It can stop Taunt well which opens up for the rest of a stall team to counter the rest of Bulky Offense. It doesn't coutner the entirety of Bulky Offense just the parts that stall couldn't counter by itself. It however isn't trapped by Pursuit or Magnezone or something so it can continue to do its job if a counter switches in.

 

[UltiMario]

Ludicolo is already an excellent Grass/Water, and with decent Special Walling, as well as Counter to cover physical, it makes any offense cry when most Non-SE hits are either sponged, or deflected.

I've ran with Ludicolo since the advent of HGSS, and he's going to be just as viable as a CAP Water/Grass, unless we give him some better stats and movepool, which is just overkill.

*still cheers for Ghost/Steel*
I'm telling you people, this'll work, it just STABs, resists, nd gets the "General movepool" based on its types that make lots of this possible!

One thing though, virtually everyone here has their own idea, how could we poll this? The winning ballot will probably win my 1 vote, and all other entries will probably have a vote of their own.
We need to figure out a way to narrow it down, to only 2 or 3, or even better if everyone can reach a winning agreement, one.

 

[Riddle]

Ludicolo is already an excellent Grass/Water, and with decent Special Walling, as well as Counter to cover physical, it makes any offense cry when most Non-SE hits are either sponged, or deflected.

Ludicolo is taunt/trick bait if used in this manner. Cap1 will not be taunt bait if we go my route. What does Ludicolo bring to stall teams that say...Vaporeon doesn't?

I've ran with Ludicolo since the advent of HGSS, and he's going to be just as viable as a CAP Water/Grass, unless we give him some better stats and movepool, which is just overkill.

Or an anti-taunt/trick ability that allows him to fit much better on Stall teams.

*still cheers for Ghost/Steel*
I'm telling you people, this'll work, it just STABs, resists, nd gets the "General movepool" based on its types that make lots of this possible!

Its weak to fire and ground. How is this ever going to stop bulky offense? Those are like the two most common types. This thing does much better against stall as a spin blocker/Explosion absorber than it does a BOC. How is this thing going to beat BO?

One thing though, virtually everyone here has their own idea, how could we poll this? The winning ballot will probably win my 1 vote, and all other entries will probably have a vote of their own.

We shall see.

We need to figure out a way to narrow it down, to only 2 or 3, or even better if everyone can reach a winning agreement, one.

sure.

 

[Circa]

One thing though, virtually everyone here has their own idea, how could we poll this? The winning ballot will probably win my 1 vote, and all other entries will probably have a vote of their own.
We need to figure out a way to narrow it down, to only 2 or 3, or even better if everyone can reach a winning agreement, one.

Not to give it away or anything, but I'm already planning on voting for an idea that's not my own (not saying who's exactly, as that would be TMI at this time). And from the sounds of it there is already another typing that has two or three people backing it as well. I don't think this is going to be 1-2-1-1-1 or whatever like you think it will be.

 

[Wave⁂]

My favorites so far:

Water / Ground
Water / Ghost
Rock / Fighting

In order.

 

[KrazyGlue]

Ghost/Normal would be a great defensive type but it would be hard to make a realistic pokemon that looks ghostly AND normal. I also support the water/ghost idea.

 

[Riddle]

I agree with water/ground except the originality factor is somewhat lacking. We already have a very defensive pokemon that is water/ground. Ghost Normal isn't actually a very good defensive typing btw. For the same reasoning Ghost/Dark isn't. You need resistances.

 

[KrazyGlue]

I agree with water/ground except the originality factor is somewhat lacking. We already have a very defensive pokemon that is water/ground. Ghost Normal isn't actually a very good defensive typing btw. For the same reasoning Ghost/Dark isn't. You need resistances.

Hmm... let's think.

Ghost/Normal:

Fighting x0
Ghost x0
Normal x0
Bug x.5
Poison x.5


Compare to Water/Ground:

Electric x0
Fire x.5
Steel x.5
Poison x.5
Rock x.5



Same amount of resistances.

Also I agree that water/ground is unoriginal and that Swampert is perfectly sufficient for that type. That's why I support water/ghost.

Also I don't get rock/fighting. It has 6 weaknesses: Psychic, water, fighting, grass, steel, and ground.

 

[Wave⁂]

lol

SAUCE

Ghost / Normal:
Fighting: 17.74% + 4.65% = 22.39%
Ghost: 6.97% + 0.83% = 7.80%
Normal: 16.15% + 0.79% = 16.94%
Bug: 10.55% + 1.36% = 11.91%
Poison: 0.78% + 0.26% = 1.05%

60.09% total.

Levitating Water / Ground:
Electric: 17.00% + 3.29% = 20.29%
Ground: 21.17% + 3.91% = 25.08%
Fire: 17.84% + 4.50% = 22.34%
Steel: 12.28% + 0.91% = 13.19%
Poison: 1.05%
Rock: 11.05% + 0.08% = 11.13%

For a grand total of 93.08%.


Granted, this data isn't used the way it was supposed to be, but you get the point.
EDIT: lol, used August stats. Whoops.

 

[Mewter]

Just remember guys. You have to balance this somehow. Right now, it just seems like a contest of who can make the best sweeper with the least problems switching in. Who cares if it has a bunch of resistances if those types of moves aren't even used by the very Bulky Offense it's supposed to counter?

Now, you see those percentages you posted, Annnoying? How many of those types are actually used by bulky offense Pokemon (because that is the only thing that really counts) rather than the overall meta-game?

 

[Wave⁂]

Now, you see those percentages you posted, Annnoying? How many of those types are actually used by bulky offense Pokemon (because that is the only thing that really counts) rather than the overall meta-game?

I don't get it. Are you saying Water / Ground is too good? Or just that it is better than Ghost / Normal?

 

[Mewter]

I'm not saying anything. I'm just asking a question.

Rather than posting percentages of the entire meta-game's use of typing and moves, I think posting the percentages of just Bulky Offense would be better (if you were able to manage that).

If not, then just go off of instinct and make your own general percentages.

 

[KrazyGlue]

lol

SAUCE

Ghost / Normal:
Fighting: 17.74% + 4.65% = 22.39%
Ghost: 6.97% + 0.83% = 7.80%
Normal: 16.15% + 0.79% = 16.94%
Bug: 10.55% + 1.36% = 11.91%
Poison: 0.78% + 0.26% = 1.05%

60.09% total.

Levitating Water / Ground:
Electric: 17.00% + 3.29% = 20.29%
Ground: 21.17% + 3.91% = 25.08%
Fire: 17.84% + 4.50% = 22.34%
Steel: 12.28% + 0.91% = 13.19%
Poison: 1.05%
Rock: 11.05% + 0.08% = 11.13%

For a grand total of 93.08%.


Granted, this data isn't used the way it was supposed to be, but you get the point.
EDIT: lol, used August stats. Whoops.

That's not fair at all. Levitate for Water/Ground and no levitate for ghost/normal? Give levitate to both and recalculate.

60.08+25.08 (ground)=85.16

Then change your formula to factor in that ghost/normal has 3 types that don't effect it at all, and water/ground only has one. Next time, use better math.

Anyways, levitating water/fighting has a good amount of resistances, so I'd like to include that.

Resists: Dark, Ground, Fighting, Fire, Ice, Bug, Water, Steel, and Rock

Mewter is right that we should mainly factor in moves used by bulky offence teams. But I think Ground, Fighting, Water, Ice, Fire, and Rock are all very common among bulky offence teams. Dark is also sometimes utilized on expert belt sets.

 

[Wave⁂]

That's not fair at all. Levitate for Water/Ground and no levitate for ghost/normal? Give levitate to both and recalculate.

60.08+25.08 (ground)=85.16

Then change your formula to factor in that ghost/normal has 3 types that don't effect it at all, and water/ground only has one. Next time, use better math if you want to make sense.

You never mentioned your Pokemon has Levitate.

Your immunities:
Fighting: 17.74% + 4.65% = 22.39%
Ghost: 6.97% + 0.83% = 7.80%
Normal: 16.15% + 0.79% = 16.94%

My immunities:
Electric: 17.00% + 3.29% = 20.29%
Ground: 21.17% + 3.91% = 25.08%

About the same.

Also, I haven't found the Smogon thread about offensive typing for more maths. But I can guarantee that Water and Ground are better than Ghost and Normal.

 

[CRASHiC]

but what about how effective it is for the Bulky Offense team, instead of things in general. An immunity to fighting, ground, and bug, with a resistence to rock, steel, and fire. for countering a bulky offense team, is this not next to ideal? The only small thing that water has over it is a resistance to water, but ghost/normal has the immunites to make up for it. Tyranitar is its only weakness.

As for the water/ground, wouldn't pokemon simply start carrying Grass Knot to make up for it?

 

[KrazyGlue]

You never mentioned your Pokemon has Levitate.

Your immunities:
Fighting: 17.74% + 4.65% = 22.39%
Ghost: 6.97% + 0.83% = 7.80%
Normal: 16.15% + 0.79% = 16.94%

My immunities:
Electric: 17.00% + 3.29% = 20.29%
Ground: 21.17% + 3.91% = 25.08%

About the same.

Also, I haven't found the Smogon thread about offensive typing for more maths. But I can guarantee that Water and Ground are better than Ghost and Normal.

Sorry I forgot to mention levitate. Ok, then. When you give Ghost/Normal levitate, then the immunities are about 27% different. So basically, overall, they have about the same total percent.


Anyway, here's levitating water/fighting (october stats):

Ground: 25.20%
Fire: 22.16%
Ice: 21.17%
Water: 19.46%
Dark: 14.87%
Steel: 13.46%
Bug: 12.25%
Rock: 10.81%

Total: 139.38%

Not sure how to factor in that it only has one type that has no effect on it, but it's pretty clear this is the best so far.

 

[Wave⁂]

best so far

Now we just have to decide if that's a good thing.

 

[KrazyGlue]

Then again, we should do weakness % as well.

Normal/Ghost:
Dark: 14.87%

Water/Ground:
Grass: 9.71%

Water/Fighting:
Electric: 20.48%
Grass: 9.71%
Flying: 4.62%
Psychic: 4.22%
Total: 39.03%


So water/fighting has the most weakness problems of the three, even if you factor in that grass is a double weakness for water/ground.

 

[Riddle]

So like, what are these pokemon going to do? Switch in and do what?

 

[KrazyGlue]

I guess we don't really know until we figure out what their movepool should be.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

The only reason I proposed Water / Ghost was because it was new and unique.
Water / Dark was my alternative idea, but it's already been used. (Crawdaunt and Sharpedo)
Water / Dark comes with an immunity to Psychic instead of Normal and Fighting. It also resists Pursuit for all the Scizor Tyranitar Pursuit-crazy people, but succumbs to Fighting-types now.

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

Its weak to fire and ground. How is this ever going to stop bulky offense? Those are like the two most common types. This thing does much better against stall as a spin blocker/Explosion absorber than it does a BOC. How is this thing going to beat BO?

No matter what, they'll always be some type that no amount of movepool or the maximum stats balance can let it have to counter. In this care, Metagross is the only Bulky offender we can do absolutely nothing to help. I dare anyone to bring a typing that makes it so absolutely impossible for EVERY SINLE Bulky offense to counter it. Its not happening. EQ and Fire is less than it seems if you can prevent their users from switching in, or stop them from going any relative damage in the first place!
Will-O-Wisp is good for Physical Switch-ins, leading Heatran as a potential threat, that can probably be taken down if played right, and Metagross as an absolute threat. Most other Bulky Offenders would be carrying HP Fire for this case, two most common being Latias and Celebi, Ghost/Steel disposes of both easily.

Do better than that and I applaud you.

 

[Wave⁂]

No matter what, they'll always be some type that no amount of movepool or the maximum stats balance can let it have to counter. In this care, Metagross is the only Bulky offender we can do absolutely nothing to help. I dare anyone to bring a typing that makes it so absolutely impossible for EVERY SINLE Bulky offense to counter it. Its not happening. EQ and Fire is less than it seems if you can prevent their users from switching in, or stop them from going any relative damage in the first place!
Will-O-Wisp is good for Physical Switch-ins, leading Heatran as a potential threat, that can probably be taken down if played right, and Metagross as an absolute threat. Most other Bulky Offenders would be carrying HP Fire for this case, two most common being Latias and Celebi, Ghost/Steel disposes of both easily.

Do better than that and I applaud you.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you (or agreeing, for that matter), but a Pokemon that counters every single BO Pokemon is incredibly broken.

 

[Deleted member]

the idea behind the typing is that you don't get ***** by the thunderwaves and stealth rocks and scoutquakes and the like carried by bulky offensive pokemon playing on the war of attrition. it's really obvious vs something like sr road eq slackoff hippowdon. these are the kind of things that can double as bulky offense or a very taunt catious stall team. I don't want to make a pokemon that's a wasted slot if you're fighting stall instead of bulky offense. we then balance it with a very mediocre but high utility stats and a fairly restricted movepool. if we go with my spread, typing and ability, it's already balanced checked and we can further limit it with a very mediocre movepool.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Don't lie you ******, you just want to be able to use two swamperts.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't even use 1 swampert.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I don't even use 1 swampert.

This.

And no comments on my reasoning behind using Water / Ghost as opposed to Water / Dark?

@Umbreon: I like your idea a lot too, but yours is already thought out to the point of a stat spread. All that's left is the pic, spriting and a movepool (and misc. stuff of course). The point of SmashCAP is to build new Pokemon through each stage discussing it as a community.
Again I'm not shooting down your idea, I think it's great. It's just you've thought it out too well. DX

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

Ah, but balance, there is. Whilst you can counter almost all of the bulky offenders, to their extent shows balance.
Empoleon, Togekiss, Machamp, and Scizor, are the ones that virtually all sets are countered, or a special set made specifically named to beat a Ghost/Steel in order for them to win. This can be done through simply resisting and walling, just using things like Burn, or just attacking in order to easily beat them.

Suicune, Starmie, Latias and Jirachi are ones that all tend to carry Neutral effective moves, and have either a way to power up their offensive capabilities, or have things like Starmie's STAB Hydro Pump or an HP Fire Carrying Latias to do damage, but all of these can be taken out various ways. For Suicune, Toxic Stalling, and if they are a Crocune, they could be taken out with a physical attack quite decently (my idea has a whole Mixed attacker thing to it, so this is more dependant n what really turns out.) Starmie getss hit by STAB Ghost moves, and will probably go down with Shadow Sneaks faster than it can recover and attack. Latias is very easy to take down if you switch in on Draco Meteor, and can be taken down with relative ease. Without that -2, you can still attempt a Toxicstall with Pain Split for recovery until you can just Shadow Sneak a kill. Jirachi really depends on the set, but if its locked into a NVE move, its pretty much forced to switch out or face the conseqences. Will-O-Wisp can always help on any Physical variant, too.

Gliscor and Swampert, well, not much can be done about them, but you can slightly hinder their goals. Neither can toxic, and to this point its unboosted EQs that are the most that can be taken. Will-O-Wisp and toxic can hinder either, but beyond that not much.

Heatran,and TTar are ones that most sets will cause trouble, and if they have +1 Speed from Scarf and DD respectively, they make life terrible. If 4x moves are available, and assuming you can take a hit, its only barely managable. This assumes you can OHKO with said X4, which won't always happen.

Metagross is impossible, it just can sponge you, resist you, and Q you to death.

It can take down almost everything one way or another, its just all a matter of the set you're running.

 

[Riddle]

I fail to see what all of these pokemon can bring to the table against BO. All they do is switch in and sponge **** and than do nothing in return...

 

[Terywj [태리]]

You clearly did not see my post on what SmashCAP 1 could do if it were Water / Ghost. I mentioned defense as well as offense.

-Terywj

 

[Circa]

I think he means the other typings. About that, however, I believe I mentioned a slight disadvantage to going Water/Ghost. It has the opportunity to be a great lead, which draws it away from its main role as BOC and could allow it a spot of its own on Bulky Offense. Now obviously we could work around that at later stages, but it's still something to watch out for when making this thing. You may have to greatly limit its movepool because of it.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I think he means the other typings. About that, however, I believe I mentioned a slight disadvantage to going Water/Ghost. It has the opportunity to be a great lead, which draws it away from its main role as BOC and could allow it a spot of its own on Bulky Offense. Now obviously we could work around that at later stages, but it's still something to watch out for when making this thing. You may have to greatly limit its movepool because of it.

Yeah, I did think of that when I was debating Water / Dark vs. Water / Ghost. The latter was the one which won because of A) the uniqueness and B) how it complements against most bulky offense users.

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

I fail to see what all of these pokemon can bring to the table against BO. All they do is switch in and sponge **** and than do nothing in return...

By this logic Blissey is one of the worst Pokemon in the game, because it can completely wall specialys, but doesn't have good enough offense to do anything but
A: Toxicstall
B: Do pathetic Damage with Boltbeam
C: Seismic Toss, which there are Pokemon that can beat that, especially Base 100 HPers with Substitute

If a pokemon stops another dead in its tracks, thats more than enough of a counter, EXACTLY how Blissey stops almost every Special sweeper in the game without fail. It prevents those sweepers from doing their job, so this is just a re-ideration with a different flavor.