Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

[Bowserboy3]

This thread has been pretty quiet for a few days, probably because we went through the big discussion point of the tier before the voting even began.

And likely the release of the new tier list.

Also, I will update sometime tomorrow.

 

[Wintermelon43]

High Tier:,,,,,,,



I vote down a tier

 

[MarioManTAW]

I vote down a tier

I know you feel very strongly that is too high, but consider that if that motion were to be carried out (which I know it won't), would be above .

 

[Wintermelon43]

I know you feel very strongly that is too high, but consider that if that motion were to be carried out (which I know it won't), would be above .

Yes, you are correct, although one down is better than none down.

I actually was thinking of not even voting for Marth to go down a tier because of this anyway (Plus going by the other votes, there's almost no chance he's moving down), but there wasn't any other tier changes I wanted, so I just voted him down anyway.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Yes, you are correct, although one down is better than none down.

I actually was thinking of not even voting for Marth to go down a tier because of this anyway (Plus going by the other votes, there's almost no chance he's moving down), but there wasn't any other tier changes I wanted, so I just voted him down anyway.

You don't have to vote someone up or down.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I vote down a tier

---

UPDATING...

 

[Bowserboy3]

UPDATED

As expected, Marth had a good portion of + votes (over half of the votes were Marth + votes), so he moved up.

Meta Knight started out very consistently (pretty much 2nd place), but then as the later votes came in he took a hit, as Ryu did much the opposite (as in he initially ranked overall much lower than him, then suddenly boosted).

Pikachu and Villager got exactly the same score, so they are ranked in the same position, similar to Charizard and Wii Fit Trainer.

Finally, we move onto the Top Tier!:

Top Tier:,,,,,,,,,

Spoiler: Rules

Spoiler: Current List as of 4.21

My vote:

Top Tier:,,,,,,,,,

Of note, I'd put either in 11th, below Fox, or above him... not sure which would best suit him.

I feel that this tier (if you look at my vote), from Sonic onwards, it is INCREDIBLY hard to accurately
order, but this is how I feel it should be, based on personal opinions, experiences, overall usage, results etc.

For me, Fox has the flaw of pretty much every character having a custom combo on him because of his gravity and fall speed. Still absolutely fantastic, and in no way worthy of high tier, I want to stress.

 

[TDK]

No up or down votes, this tier is perfect.

Also, I'd put Marth just under Mario if I could add him, and Lucina at the end of this tier just under ZSS.

 

[Bowserboy3]

No up or down votes, this tier is perfect.

Ahh, thanks - I'll just point this out for those who don't know and haven't read the rules (because most of you regulars know the drill now, I don't expect you read the rules every time).

No upvotes (+) this time.

Downvotes (-) are still allowed.

Remember; we set the amount of tiers a long time ago. We cannot create a new one.

And this also doesn't mean you HAVE to add a downvote. The options you have this round are no vote or a downvote.

 

[Routa]

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

[**]

Rosalina should definitely be at the bottom, and possibly not even top tier. Ever since Dabuz, by far the best Rosalina, has dropped off in results and considered dropping her in favor of a high-mid tier, she just continues to fall from her "potential"-based placement in top tier, like Ryu has. She does have a few matchups well in her favor, like Ness and Pac-Man, but they aren't major tournament threats anymore, and she also has some bad matchups against her that are major threats, most notably Meta Knight and Cloud.

And then Kirihara came along and made my argument wrong. Still, I don't want to have too much recency bias, so she's staying at the bottom until she does more than the other characters (winning one tournament doesn't matter as much as consistent top 8 placements here) or until my core argument is proven wrong. The highest she would move in that case is just below Marth at #7, as the top 6 characters have truly proven themselves the most.

Why the ZSS hate? She's defintely not in the upper range, but she also isn't at the bottom, as IMO she's at least better than Rosalina, with Nairo and Marss showing that her burst potential is still ridiculous after nerfs.

EDIT: Removed Rosalina downvote, but kept her at the bottom for the same reasons.
EDIT 2: Switched Mewtwo and Fox.
EDIT 3: Switched more characters around, putting Bayo at the top (I'm finally convinced) among other things. The rest of top 5, including Mario, stay there until they stop doing extremely well at tournaments.

 

[Zerp]

()

Spoiler: Version without Marth so it's easier to count

 

[Bowserboy3]

-1
Rosalina should definitely be at the bottom, and possibly not even top tier. Ever since Dabuz, by far the best Rosalina, has dropped off in results and considered dropping her in favor of a high-mid tier, she just continues to fall from her "potential"-based placement in top tier, like Ryu has. She has a few polarizing matchups in her favor, but none of them are extreme tournament threats anymore, and she also has a few against her in the high to top tiers, most notably Cloud and Meta Knight. I'm mostly downvoting her because I think Marth is better than her, but I could very well see her just being a high tier.

I'll just point out that after Dabuz said he was going to drop Rosalina, he pretty much solo'd her at his next tournament, and came 4th.

Of course, vote on what you like, but a player dropping a character doesn't instantly make them worse. Also, we've yet to actually see this happen with Dabuz and Rosalina. He was apparently practicing her hard before Frostbite, and it showed; his solo Rosalina game was the best it's ever been.

Rosalina has a few MU's that are pretty bad. Meta Knight is a very tough MU for her, and by far her worst MU at top level (we've seen multiple occasions at other levels of play of Rosalina beating Meta Knight; having a pocket Meta Knight at anything less than top level will not guaruntee you win this MU). Cloud is pretty hard, but the MU can be turned at any moment thanks to their floatiness and strong edgeguard/ledge covering tactics.

The only other MU's that can be considered tough in top tier are Bayonetta and Marth; Bayonetta has been shown in recent times to be far less troublesome than theorised, likely closer to even than we like to believe (I personally believe, as a user of both characters, that it's a 55:45 to Bayonetta at best). Marth can be tough to play against in the neutral, but let's not forget Marth has issues of his own; Marth DOES NOT land against Rosalina without sustaining heavy damage or being forced to deal with ledge pressure or ledge traps.

Characters with swords do not straight up beat Rosalina - this meme needs to die fast. They help with approaching Luma, but they do not stop Rosalina's strong tools from functioning. There's a very close and steady decline in the top tier character's in terms of results, and from Rosalina to Ryu, there's a pretty noticeable drop in results on Ryu's part. This signifies to me that Rosalina is still a league or two above Ryu (who ironically is ranked top of high tier in our tier list).

This character is still amazingly good. As long as Rage exists, Rosalina will always be a step above most characters. Please don't forget this people.

I really hope people don't forget how powerful ZSS is too.

 

[TDK]

My issue with ZSS (And the reason I put her at the bottom) is how simple her gameplan is. It's very powerful, but with her being mostly a one-trick Pony she has a much more difficult time adapting if your opponent doesn't get Rage Boost Kicked to the top. Her matchups are getting harder because of this.

Don't believe me? Ask Nairo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiBvbEEl1-Q

She's still top tier because of how absurdly powerful Rage Boost Kick chains are, but she's at the bottom.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Bayo isn't better than Diddy yet, but I could totally see it happening. Mewtwo is on the very edge of getting a downvote from me. If Marth hadn't moved up, Mewtwo absolutely would have gotten a downvote from me. But he's better than Marth so, there he stays.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Edit: Moved Rosalina & Luna up two spots.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Not voting any character up or down.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Not voting any character up or down.

I thought my phone's browser broke for a second there, bravo.

 

[jespoke]

I moved around the pieces for a while until i landed on something i found acceptable.

 

[Nah]

why would anyone think Cloud is anything other than top 3, the character was legit designed to be ****ing ridiculous


as a random side note, as good as I think Marth is and as much as he's the only other character in the game that has legitimate rights to top tier, if I had voted last round I would've just placed him at top of high tier but not upvoted him

 

[Phuckyew]

Nobody moves up or down. If anybody wants to know my reasoning for this order I'd be happy to respond.

Edit: Top tier with Marth included:

()

 

[Nidtendofreak]

why would anyone think Cloud is anything other than top 3, the character was legit designed to be ****ing ridiculous

He's designed to be ridiculous but has troubles actually winning majors as a primary character. He's the perfect secondary character and will always show up at the top level as one but, the other three are stronger for using as the primary character throughout a tournament.

Also Bayo was designed to be even more insane.

 

[L9999]

(*)

No changes.

Wintermelon43 Marth is top tier, deal with it.

 

[Tizio Random]

 

[MarioManTAW]

()

 

[Bigbomb2]

These guys are borked. Does Bayo have a losing MU that's agreed upon?

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

 

[L9999]

These guys are borked. Does Bayo have a losing MU that's agreed upon?

.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

.

idk if Ness and Lucas are agreed on yet. Luigi is for sure though.

 

[Wintermelon43]

These guys are borked. Does Bayo have a losing MU that's agreed upon?

 

[TDK]

These guys are borked. Does Bayo have a losing MU that's agreed upon?

with being matchups that could become bad in the future.

 

[ShogunTBone]

I like moving up so far, he's tricky due to the lack of follow ups outside of dancing blade or fair chains but he's still very good with a lot of KO power and edgeguarding ease. Well deserved imo

Bayo isn't better than Diddy yet, but I could totally see it happening.

All that bayo needs is a few national wins or a tippy top player picking her up and showing results to solidify her being #1, but for now I agree Diddy staying there

 

[JayZee1700]

()

Personally, I think has a better MU against than most of the cast, but that's up for debate.

 

[Lonky]

Personally, I think has a better MU against than most of the cast, but that's up for debate.

Why? I'm curious, I don't know anything about Bayonetta to be honest.

 

[Woohoo982]

()

also, how does Bayo have a losing matchup vs Luigi? I have no idea how to play bayonetta so im curious

 

[TDK]

Why? I'm curious, I don't know anything about Bayonetta to be honest.

Bayonetta struggles with Zoners (Projectile characters) and characters with Solid grab confirms, while also having trouble sealing stocks if you can escape her combos. Link fits that bill perfectly. He's heavy, so he doesn't die, abuses rage, has some of the best zoning tools in the game, and has reliable grab confirms until kill % on her. In addition, he also has a kill throw (Up). These tools are almost perfectly suited to dealing with Bayonetta, as Link's best advantages are the things she struggles against the most.

also, how does Bayo have a losing matchup vs Luigi? I have no idea how to play bayonetta so im curious

Simply put: he has the highest grab reward in the game. Because Grabs are very effective vs Bayonetta due to them beating witch time and how easy it is to combo her, Luigi wins off of sheer reward. Additionally, he's one of very few characters in the game who can edgeguard Bayonetta well.

I'm not too familiar with Luigi compared to Link so have a VOD, this should give you a better understanding: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdCCpD733_g

 

[MarioManTAW]

()

also, how does Bayo have a losing matchup vs Luigi? I have no idea how to play bayonetta so im curious

Bayonetta may not lose the matchup outright, but Elegant, the best Luigi, has set wins over top Bayo players Salem, CaptainZack and Pink Fresh, and has become known as a "Bayonetta slayer." Also, Elegant lists the MU as even in his Luigi MU chart.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Why? I'm curious, I don't know anything about Bayonetta to be honest.

Bayonetta struggles with Zoners (Projectile characters) and characters with Solid grab confirms, while also having trouble sealing stocks if you can escape her combos. Link fits that bill perfectly. He's heavy, so he doesn't die, abuses rage, has some of the best zoning tools in the game, and has reliable grab confirms until kill % on her. In addition, he also has a kill throw (Up). These tools are almost perfectly suited to dealing with Bayonetta, as Link's best advantages are the things she struggles against the most.

Being big and somewhat heavy also hurts him too because that along with his poor disadvantage it means its really hard to get out of her combos without immaculate SDI. His mobility is too poor to really play the keep-away zoning effectively. He can do good grab confirms IF he gets the grab, but he can get punished hard if he whiffs it too. Plus he gets destroyed by her offstage too. I would say calling it even would be a bit optimistic.

Can claim to do pretty well vs Bayo over due to being small, faster and being and fairly floaty all of which are more ideal for the Bayo MU over just being heavy

 

[Browny]

()

Bayo is still soft banned by all definitions of the term.
Diddy is lame but people STILL aren't escaping his dtilt-usmash properly. It's not exactly an all powerful kill option for him, but it should be DI'd out of often. He is this high until people start doing that more.
Mario has the best representation of all top tiers except Cloud, with better results. #2 once Diddy is played against more effectively.
Sonic sits above cloud since like Diddy, people need to stop falling for clouds cheese kill set ups like upb from the ledge into uair and also edgeguard him better. Every time someone stands on the edge and does nothing except perfect shield his upb coming back down, which also achieves nothing, they deserve to lose. I'd say Sonic is equal to cloud but the fact that Sonic can't really be out-lamed puts Sonic above Cloud.
Cloud will stay here above sheik because he just has better high level rep.
Mewtwo has more and more kill set ups being used proficiently., so he rises.
Rosalina would be higher if more people played her, but you can't expect that from such a boring character.
Fox has literally one player carrying him into top tier.
I still laugh at ZSS mains like Marss who were adamant that the nerf to her upb was actually a secret buff because apparently killing the enemy 30% later means its better... Don't ask me to explain that, ask them.
Go away Marth. If it wasnt for MKLeo youd be right back down. Shieldbreaker is extremely good and underutilised by USA marth mains.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Rosalina would be higher if more people played her, but you can't expect that from such a boring character.

Why do you do this to me?

---
Also to add to a different topic, struggles a fair bit with the following characters;. These characters exploit one thing that make the MU's real tough for her.

Link and Toon Link are projectile zoners that limit her burst movement and ability to approach, which is still only average at best.

Luigi can do similar with Fireball, and has legitimate combos and followups that cannot be escaped with Bat Within, but most notably he is one of the only characters that can legitimately edgeguard her thanks to Luigi Tornado gimps. To a lesser extent, he can also challenge her aerial approaches with intangible head Up Smash. By far one of her worst MU's, with what I would argue is Toon Link.

Ness does well against her because he is a perfect weight and has great floaty air physics to easily escape her combos, and his main KO method is low commitment and avoids Witch Time (Bthrow).

Other characters with similarly strong zoning and kill throws, such as and are also pretty tough, they are debatable.

Characters such as and are also bad MU's for various reasons, mainly banana and actually safely KO'ing Sonic.

handles Bayonetta just fine (still likely even), for similar floaty and zoning reasons. Finally, characters with good counter moves that can space around her (/) also have a claim to fame of being able to edgeguard her well.

Bayonetta is far from invincible. Yes Witch Time and combos yadayadayada but she has a nice chunk of troublesome MU's.