Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

[TDK]

( )

+ (And if I can, I'm bumping up too.)

 

[MrGameguycolor]

People often say that I have too much of a focus on results and believe 100% results matter. No, theory has its place too but ONLY in the absence of results. Dark pit is a great example. He has some of the worst representation of the entire roster, even below Mii fighters yet the theory for him being around the same viability as Pit is very strong. If a character has poor results (not absent, but poor) yet stronger theory then they deserve to be ranked lower as the poor results prove poor viability.

While I agree with your stance on how characters should be treated on tier list, Dark Pit doesn't really work in your example since he's a unique case of being so similar to his original counterpart to very large degree, even farther then Lucina to Marth.

Anyway, this was a hard pick for me since I believe their all very close to each other:


+ (Personally I still think there's a lot more to this character that we have yet to uncover.)



Also, I've noticed that the topic of tier lists tens to bring out the worse in people.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If anyone thinks Ryu needs to move up when he loses to literally every top tier except Fox and a possible even match with Sheik, I think we need to have a real conversation.

Basically you are wrong and you should stop being wrong.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

-

 

[Samuelwisebaggins]

+

 

[Frihetsanka]

If anyone thinks Ryu needs to move up when he loses to literally every top tier except Fox and a possible even match with Sheik, I think we need to have a real conversation.

Darkshad has Ryu losing to 5-6 top tiers, Takera 7, Chanshu 7, and Locust 1. Seems he (probably) doesn't lose to Zero Suit Samus, Mario, Fox, or Marth. I checked with notable players for those characters and they either think they lose to Ryu or go even with him (except for Fuwa, who thinks Marth slightly beats Ryu).

I looked at the other top tier characters. The Mewtwos seem to think it's even. Diddy Kong slight advantage. Sheik slight advantage (Karma thinks Ryu beats Sheik though, and Sinnyboo242 Slight advantage for Ryu). Most top Rosas think they win. Sonic wins too. Bayonetta slight advantage. Cloud wins too.

So... Mewtwo might be even. That's 5 top tiers Ryu might not lose to. Even then, if he really loses to 6 top tiers then he's probably not top tier himself (and I should maybe even move him down a few spots on my tier list). If he loses to loses to some non-top tiers as well he might not even be top 15.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth probably wins or it's even. Ryu does not control any top tiers. He doesn't really control anyone. He does not have the ability do that. What he has is a high threat level if/when someone screws up which can greatly unnerve you. But he cannot MAKE any top tier do anything they do not want to do. This has been shown countless times. He does NOT control the flow of the match.

Does that sound like a top tier? Especially in a smash game?

 

[Tizio Random]

+

 

[Frihetsanka]

Does that sound like a top tier? Especially in a smash game?

Sounds a lot like Ganondorf to me. I guess Ryu is a bit like Ganondorf on stereoids? Focus Attack is a great tool for him as well, and he can threaten shields with his shield break, and he has a projectile (not a great projectile, but at least he can avoid getting projectile camped by most characters). So he's somewhere in high tier.

High tier is kind of hard to order. Aside from Marth being #1 and Greninja near the bottom I think the list could change a lot and still be fairly correct.

 

[Emblem Lord]

When Ryu dropped I literally called him and Ganon like comparing the Terminator series of robots. The T-800 compared to the T-1000. That is literally it.

Also his projectile sucks. 58 total frames. That does not lead to combos or set-ups reliably. That is pure trash. You look at high level Ryus and they do not throw out hadoukens nearly as much as Mario's fireball or Sheiks needle. There is a reason for that.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Also his projectile sucks. 58 total frames. That does not lead to combos or set-ups reliably. That is pure trash. You look at high level Ryus and they do not throw out hadoukens nearly as much as Mario's fireball or Sheiks needle. There is a reason for that.

Ganondorf would gladly trade Warlock Punch for it. The way I see it, it's main use is to clash with other projectiles or force people without projectiles to approach. It's not really a good move, but it has some use, at least. It's not "pure trash" by any means, Captain Falcon or Ness would gladly trade their neutral-Bs for it. It is the worst neutral-B move in high tier (and top tier), though (well, Sonic's might be worse).

 

[Bowserboy3]

Added my vote in.

+

Unsure just yet whether I want to see Marth go up into top tier or simply stay at the top of this one... I don't really believe Marth is outright better than ANY character in the top tier, so I want to see him stay in the 11th place, but I do feel classing him as a "top tier" is the right move.

I may change this later down the line. Hopefully he'll just stay 11th...

 

[MarioManTAW]

+ I do believe he stands out above the rest of this tier. I considered moving Greninja down, but this is more important.

 

[JayZee1700]

Okay, High Tier list



+

Not going to explain cuz theres a lot and everyone else will cover it, but MKLeo, ridiculous results, blah blah blah...

 

[Bigbomb2]

This seems like a cozy spot for Marth now.

 

[Nah]

The way I see it, it's main use is to clash with other projectiles or force people without projectiles to approach. It's not really a good move, but it has some use, at least. It's not "pure trash" by any means,

if hadoukens make anyone feel the need to approach they're doing smash 4 wrong

why would a slow, laggy, weak projectile that he can only have one of on screen at a time make me or anyone else want to approach him

especially when approaching is the exact opposite of what you wanna do

 

[Frihetsanka]

if hadoukens make anyone feel the need to approach they're doing smash 4 wrong

why would a slow, laggy, weak projectile that he can only have one of on screen at a time make me or anyone else want to approach him

Because if he has a lead and he keeps spamming Hadoken you will lose eventually if you don't approach?

 

[Nah]

Because if he has a lead and he keeps spamming Hadoken you will lose eventually if you don't approach?

Why are you assuming he has a lead? Even if he does, it's not the Hadoukens that are making you approach, it's the fact that he has a % lead. On top of this, Hadouken doesn't wall you out or set-up for anything.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Why are you assuming he has a lead? Even if he does, it's not the Hadoukens that are making you approach, it's the fact that he has a % lead. On top of this, Hadouken doesn't wall you out or set-up for anything.

https://s28.postimg.org/lnc1en5ul/Neutral_Special_TL.png

Make a case for it being D or F tier next time it comes up, I suppose. Seems people discussing it in that thread and came to the conclusion that it should be C tier, so either they're wrong or it's not as bad as you're making it out to be.

Thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/ranking-moves-in-characters-round-21-discussing-down-special.437505/

 

[wedl!!]

If Ryu keeps chucking fireballs he's throwing the game

You can just PS them and dash forward, jump over them, or throw another projectile, causing him to retreat further. Top tiers especially aren't intimidated by hados because they have anti-hado tools, like moving fast and massive, quick hitboxes that Ryu lacks because his mobility is so limited in comparison (jump is ass, airspeed is ass, focus attack will only work so often)

The only retaliation in neutral that he possesses is moving around and looking for errors/baiting, which is incredibly finicky due to the previously mentioned + top tiers being faster and possessing more range than him.

 

[JayZee1700]

Also note that Ryu is one of two-ish characters out of the entire cast with different fast fall speeds. Whereas the rest of the cast's falling speed increases by 60% when fast falling (Except Roy with 61%, which is why I said that it's two-ish), Link's fall speed increases by 90%, and Ryu's fall speed increases by 40%.

In Link's case, this increased fall speed benefits him in all ways, including follow-ups, landing options, etc. But in Ryu's case, the decreased fall speed is quite detrimental. It makes it a little harder for Ryu to land, because you can catch his fast fall and juggle him, but Focus Attack certainly helps out. Also, his aerial follow-up options, while very scary, have little margin for error because you have to take more time to connect each hit.

For example, Ryu's N-air strings are difficult to string together because the already difficult alternation between rising and falling N-airs becomes even harder with his fast fall speed being so slow. The opponent may be able to DI or air-dodge out of it if the Ryu player is too slow to follow up.

Just some food for thought.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

https://s28.postimg.org/lnc1en5ul/Neutral_Special_TL.png

Make a case for it being D or F tier next time it comes up, I suppose. Seems people discussing it in that thread and came to the conclusion that it should be C tier, so either they're wrong or it's not as bad as you're making it out to be.

Thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/ranking-moves-in-characters-round-21-discussing-down-special.437505/

There is a lot of fanboying in that topic. I ultimately gave up on it. Nobody is willing to consider their move bad unless its like, Wario Dsmash tier. Everyone thinks their character's moves are all secretly great and the people running it crumple if like two people arguing in favour of moving a move up. They don't understand "good for my character" is different from "good in the grand scheme of things".

 

[jespoke]

I don't really have anything to add.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

I would want to see Marth go up, but not completely convinced yet.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'm going to have to deal with people trying to get Corrin into 13th place in this topic's next cycle because of Tier List V3 aren't I?

 

[Frihetsanka]

I'm going to have to deal with people trying to get Corrin into 13th place in this topic's next cycle because of Tier List V3 aren't I?

Probably not from me, I'm pretty content with around 18-20 (at the moment, anyway, I might change my mind later though). Overall I think the new tier list is pretty accurate, more accurate than this one I'd say. This list places characters like Bowser, Donkey Kong, Luigi, Corrin, and Olimar too low. Their Mii placements are worse than ours though.

 

[jespoke]

Top players are always high on Corrin, nothing new there. The separation at the top is the thing i am most interested in discussing.

Also lol called it: https://twitter.com/Jespoketheepic/status/836078080208822277

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Basically you are wrong and you should stop being wrong.

I said I personally believe that Ryu has a lot more room to develop as a character, which is why I think he can go up.
I also stated that I agreed with Browny's post on how tiers should show how good a character is in-general, & not just a period of time.
So really I'm not entirely "wrong", you just disagree with me.
Unless you have anything meaningful to say to me, then do me a favor & calm down.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Explain why. Also I am quite calm.

 

[JayZee1700]

I said I personally believe that Ryu has a lot more room to develop as a character, which is why I think he can go up.
I also stated that I agreed with Browny's post on how tiers should show how good a character is in-general, & not just a period of time.
So really I'm not entirely "wrong", you just disagree with me.
Unless you have anything meaningful to say to me, then do me a favor & calm down.

Since we know that Ryu's meta is still developing right now, I don't think it's safe to push him up if we don't know everything he is capable of. Ryu has the capability for sure, and perhaps he'll move up in the future, but in the meantime I suggest we keep him where he is until we have a clear idea of where he should be.

 

[Frihetsanka]

How much can he really develop though? How will he make his neutral or mobility worthy of top tier? Or will he develop his punish game enough to make up for those weaknesses?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Seriously, will someone define what they mean by the word potential? Potential for what? His neutral is pretty much at it's limit. So what more potential is there? More refined punishes? Ok. What else?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Seriously, will someone define what they mean by the word potential? Potential for what?

In Ryu's case, probably potential to be a top tier. I'm guessing people think there's more to Ryu and the top Ryu players need to step it up?

I personally think he's somewhere in high tier though. I don't think he'll be top tier unless there's a new patch that nerfs some of his bad MUs.

 

[Emblem Lord]

But potential is being treated as a magic buzzword with no clear definition. The people that say this never define it.We know Ryu's flaws. So where does this potential lie and how will it impact the very real issues that he has.

 

[money1246]

Emblem Lord I asked this in another thread but it wasnt answered. Tsu uses Lucario and Ryu. Trela uses Ryu and Lucario. How do you feel about that combination and what does it say about those players and their playstyles?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Seems clear to me. If you play lucario/Ryu you want a high clutch factor and you want to punish mistakes with death. You are willing to give up consistent neutral for comeback factor and real kill confirms.

Not worth it imo

 

[lbrasz44]

 

[Frihetsanka]

Bowserboy3 Update soon?

I moved Meta Knight up two spots, I think I had him a tad too low before.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Bowserboy3 Update soon?

I was thinking of updating pretty soon actually.

If I feel we've got enough votes, I'll update sometime tomorrow.

I'll leave a post saying when I'll be doing it, like normal.

 

[jespoke]

This thread has been pretty quiet for a few days, probably because we went through the big discussion point of the tier before the voting even began.