Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

[JayZee1700]

Being big and somewhat heavy also hurts him too because that along with his poor disadvantage it means its really hard to get out of her combos without immaculate SDI. His mobility is too poor to really play the keep-away zoning effectively. He can do good grab confirms IF he gets the grab, but he can get punished hard if he whiffs it too. Plus he gets destroyed by her offstage too. I would say calling it even would be a bit optimistic.

I actually think you are wrong, and it is an even MU between and . Here's why:

As previously mentioned, struggles against zoning characters, and characters with good grab confirms. Link's projectiles are very useful and they function as a wall. Bayo can't approach very well already, so this wall of projectiles makes her life a lot harder. Yes, Link is a heavier character so he is easier to combo, but having a bomb in hand basically breaks up any combo that Link is stuck in. Also, using B-reverses and wave bounces with his arrows and boomerang makes up for mediocre mobility. He is NOT destroyed off stage, because has quite a few ways to mix up his recovery. He can recover high, and use a bomb to get out of special fall. He can recover low, and again, use a bomb. He can use his tether. Overall, needs to put a little more effort to edge guard Link then another of Bayo's worse MU's,. Also, Link has Z-air, which true combos into grab. So, its difficult to whiff if you time it correctly.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Also, just of note, while we are voting on the last tier, there is one more round left after this one.

Don't worry about it too much now; let's continue to focus on the tier at hand. I'll explain it in the update post (when that happens - certainly not ready to update yet).

 

[JayZee1700]

Can we discuss the placement of because it looks like there's a lot of different opinions of where these 4 are supposed to sit in the tier.

 

[Bowserboy3]

is relatively discounted this round because we don't vote on him. However, from what we can see, it looks like he's placed within the lower side of things, which is absolutely how it should be; I am a Marth main, and I struggle to see how he could be 8th or above.

's nerfs get blown out of the water too much. Still a very capable character, who still possesses a lot of very dumb tools and options (Zair is f***ing amazing; best Zair in the game, and things like still being able to end your stock on a hard read at 30%). Struggles a bit in neutral in the hands of the average player, and while still has a relatively bad neutral game, it's more than functional in the hands of a good player, and not something where you randomly throw out moves hoping to get something to work. A character that struggles to get a good rep for herself despite Nairo and Marss consistently doing better with her than most other characters in this tier, and that's likely because post nerf, all ZSS players disappeared from online play, which affects peoples opinions more than you'd think. It also doesn't help that ZSS is one of the worst characters online; lag and such affects her arguably more than any character.

I've been personally going through a learning curve with ZSS (I hit a wall or something, and have been struggling to improve). However, I have been seeking advice, and I've been lucky enough to have gotten some help, and it's opened doors I never could have opened before. It's helped me realise that there is more to this character than there was before. This character is still super good.

I'll get to and soon.

 

[MarioManTAW]

best Zair in the game

might beg to differ, but definitely better than and probably even

 

[JayZee1700]

might beg to differ, but definitely better than and probably even

I don't think 's Z-air is even comparable to 's. Her Z-air does more damage, is longer, and can kill at the blast zone, unlike . If you've got a reason why he's got a better Z-air, HMU.

 

[Nah]

There's probably a lot of variability in people's placements after top 4 (which it seems that mostly everyone agrees that top 4 is some ordering of ///, as those 4 are clearly the best of the best) since there's no clear distinction of who's better--they're all pretty close really.


And all the Zairs are really sexy tbh

 

[MarioManTAW]

I don't think 's Z-air is even comparable to 's. Her Z-air does more damage, is longer, and can kill at the blast zone, unlike . If you've got a reason why he's got a better Z-air, HMU.

I see players use his a lot more as a damage/spacing move in the neutral and for recovery. I don't know how compares in that regard, and it may be that only uses his more because he lacks other better options, but whether or not 's is actually useful, I think we can probably agree that his is more used.

 

[JayZee1700]

I see players use his a lot more as a damage/spacing move in the neutral and for recovery.

...That's what all Z-airs are used for. Also note that ZSS mains have been increasing usage of Z-air because all 5 characters with Z-air can combo it into grab. Since ZSS has such a scary grab game, why wouldn't players use Z-air to get a grab confirm? Also 's Z-air does 6.8% whereas's Z-air does 9%. She easily has the longest Z-air in the game by far. By your definition of 's uses for Z-air, 's Z-air not only directly translates 's, but also does even more.

it may be that only uses his more because he lacks other better options,

This doesn't mean that it makes it a better move in general.

but whether or not 's is actually useful, I think we can probably agree that his is more used.

Again, just because it is used a lot does not mean that it is a good move.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I see players use his a lot more as a damage/spacing move in the neutral and for recovery. I don't know how compares in that regard, and it may be that only uses his more because he lacks other better options, but whether or not 's is actually useful, I think we can probably agree that his is more used.

I did actually think of Lucas's Zair when writing that initial comment about ZSS's, funnily enough.

But then I realised that ZSS's pretty much does everything Lucas's Zair does, but better, or gets more reward from doing so.

For example, it's longer, so can be used more safely in neutral (of note, it is arguably ZSS's most important/her best spacing and neutral tool due to how good of a poke it can be, so she uses it as much as Lucas). It does more damage also, for example. You can also get a grab from Zair, of which ZSS could end your stock at 30% if the conditions are right.

ZSS's just superior movement allows her to weave in, out and around her opponent with Zair, something Lucas cannot do.

If I were to rank Zairs, I would probably go...

> / > /

I rank Samus's on the level as Lucas's because it is actually the longest Zair in the game, and is super easy to spam and use thanks to Samus's floaty physics.

I cannot really say who's Zair is better between Link and Toon Link, but I will say this; out of them all, I just find Link's very tough to use. It seems really strange... does he hold it out lower than the other characters? Does it move slower? Does it come out slower? There's something about it that doesn't feel nice.

Could be his lower short hop and average fall speed that make timing it a bit tricky, I suppose.

---
Anyway, TL;DR of my initial post:

is still great.

Like I said before, the lower ends of this tier (like, i'd say 7th onwards in particular) are parts that are likely going to show LOTS of variation. This is absolutely fine, as it shows us actually how good and solid these top tier characters are. It's probably better for the game in general if there is variation; it means nothing is generally agreed (like say, Sheik being widely agreed the best pre-nerf).

 

[Bowserboy3]

So then...

Rosalina being ranked so low, or even at the bottom of people's rankings.

When do we discuss this?

 

[Wintermelon43]

inb4 next round "+ -"

 

[Frihetsanka]

Rosalina being ranked so low, or even at the bottom of people's rankings.

When do we discuss this?

All characters in top tier are incredibly strong. Someone has to be at the bottom of it, though.

Looking at your list, you placed Rosalina above Cloud, Sonic, Mario, Mewtwo, and Zero Suit Samus.

Cloud and Sonic are both strong contenders for top 5, in my opinion, and should not be below Rosalina.

Mario might be. He's probably on the lower end of top tier anyway.

Mewtwo might be as well, also on the lower end.

I think Zero Suit Samus is somewhat underrated. I also think Fox is really, really strong.

So, yeah... Maybe she can move up 1 or 2 spots, though I'm not convinced that she should.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

 

[Ryng_tolu]

()

As much as i like , i really don't see it as top tier, but i decided to include it too.

 

[Bowserboy3]

All characters in top tier are incredibly strong. Someone has to be at the bottom of it, though.

Looking at your list, you placed Rosalina above Cloud, Sonic, Mario, Mewtwo, and Zero Suit Samus.

Cloud and Sonic are both strong contenders for top 5, in my opinion, and should not be below Rosalina.

Mario might be. He's probably on the lower end of top tier anyway.

Mewtwo might be as well, also on the lower end.

I think Zero Suit Samus is somewhat underrated. I also think Fox is really, really strong.

So, yeah... Maybe she can move up 1 or 2 spots, though I'm not convinced that she should.

I won't go into the main reasons I placed Rosalina above Cloud and Sonic; they're the only two characters I feel could realistically be above her, I'll say that much.

But considering she's one of the only characters as of late to actually win a major, I think that alone is deserving for her to be closer to the middle of this tier rather than at the bottom.

For me, Browny summed up the main reason why I see she gets ranked so low...

Rosalina would be higher if more people played her

This is interesting, because you can arguably argue the same in top level play for other characters. Fox literally has Larry. Mewtwo has Abadango. Sonic has... wait, who commonly uses Sonic in top 8 and solo mains him? Exactly.

Rosalina has Dabuz, and now Kirihara. She's pretty much being used more than a fair chunk of the top tier.

Rosalina also at least has the distinction of being certain characters potential worst MU's in top tier; Sonic, Diddy, arguably Sheik, Ryu (if we consider him top tier like on the 4BR list), and Fox are all characters that can consider Rosalina one of, if not their worst MU (I'd add Mario to that list, but Cloud and Marth arguably more notable than Rosalina for him).

There are some characters in this tier that don't really stand out as "oh, I am multiple top tier character's worst MU" - Mario, Fox, Mewtwo all stand out to me as characters that are really f***ing solid, but not characters that are the worst MU of multiple top tiers (and this is in no way saying those characters are not top tier; they indeed are still top tier).

I really don't see how she's one of the worst in this tier, at all. I think it's high time we start re-evaluating where she really deserves to be placed.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Not moving Rosalina from where I placed her (8th) unless a more long term trend of her winning majors happens.

To me, 5th-9th are almost completely interchangeable and its basically darts on a dartboard. Going to take more than a major win to rearrange them because for all I know, Nairo could win Civil War with Dabuz falling outside of top 8 and then we'd be rearranging things all over again if we reacted to ever win of that level with a top tier rejuggling.

 

[Frihetsanka]

But considering she's one of the only characters as of late to actually win a major, I think that alone is deserving for her to be closer to the middle of this tier rather than at the bottom.

Assuming you think December last year counts as "as of late", Larry Lurr was really close to win 2GGT: Zero Saga with Fox. One game away, in fact, against an arguably better player (MKLeo). What if Larry Lurr wins Civil War? Would Fox suddenly no longer be at the bottom of top tier, in your opinion?

This is interesting, because you can arguably argue the same in top level play for other characters. Fox literally has Larry. Mewtwo has Abadango. Sonic has... wait, who commonly uses Sonic in top 8 and solo mains him? Exactly.

By your criteria, no character aside from Sheik would qualify (ANTi doesn't solo main Mario).If you're willing to accept non-top 16 result, Fox has NAKAT, Mewtwo has Rich Brown, Sonic has a bunch of players (komorikiri, KEN, 6WX, SuperGirlKels, Static Manic, Seagull Joe, etc), and Rosalina also has Xaltis and falln.

I really don't see how she's one of the worst in this tier, at all. I think it's high time we start re-evaluating where she really deserves to be placed.

Someone has to be. To be fair though, it's really hard to place 6-11 in general. They're somewhat similar-ish in power. Rosalina & Luma is super strong, but so are Mario, Mewtwo, Fox, and Zero Suit Samus. People focus too much on results. If Ally wins a major, Mario is suddenly top 5. If Abadango wins a major, Mewtwo is top 5. If Nairo wins a major, Zero Suit Samus is at least top 7. I wonder what would happen if Larry Lurr won a major (he almost won 2GGT: Zero Saga and 2GGT: Abadango Saga).

 

[JayZee1700]

I wonder what would happen if Larry Lurr won a major (he almost won 2GGT: Zero Saga and 2GGT: Abadango Saga).

Remember Larry did win 2GGT: Mexico Saga, winning 2 sets over ZeRo.

With all of this controversy over basically half of the top tier, I'm remaking my list.

(/)(/)

Personally, I think that both the pairs of and , and and are interchangeable in their spots in the tier, but the top 6 are pretty much set in stone (The order that the pairs are in currently are the places I believe the characters belong, however it's a close call).

 

[Bowserboy3]

Assuming you think December last year counts as "as of late", Larry Lurr was really close to win 2GGT: Zero Saga with Fox. One game away, in fact, against an arguably better player (MKLeo). What if Larry Lurr wins Civil War? Would Fox suddenly no longer be at the bottom of top tier, in your opinion?

By your criteria, no character aside from Sheik would qualify (ANTi doesn't solo main Mario).If you're willing to accept non-top 16 result, Fox has NAKAT, Mewtwo has Rich Brown, Sonic has a bunch of players (komorikiri, KEN, 6WX, SuperGirlKels, Static Manic, Seagull Joe, etc), and Rosalina also has Xaltis and falln.

I really don't see how she's one of the worst in this tier, at all. I think it's high time we start re-evaluating where she really deserves to be placed.[/QUOTE]Someone has to be. To be fair though, it's really hard to place 6-11 in general. They're somewhat similar-ish in power. Rosalina & Luma is super strong, but so are Mario, Mewtwo, Fox, and Zero Suit Samus. People focus too much on results. If Ally wins a major, Mario is suddenly top 5. If Abadango wins a major, Mewtwo is top 5. If Nairo wins a major, Zero Suit Samus is at least top 7. I wonder what would happen if Larry Lurr won a major (he almost won 2GGT: Zero Saga and 2GGT: Abadango Saga).[/QUOTE]
If Larry was to win Civil War, that alone wouldn't make Fox notably better than he already is. He's already established himself as a character that could win a major.

You're taking the main point of my post out of context; my point is that Rosalina is not the worst character in this tier. I totally agree that the lower end of this tier is likely to be varied (I even said this myself in other posts). One thing that is very clear to me however, is that when a character has notable MU's against a big chunk of this tier, can win a major, and has a fair few people playing her (that can make it into top 8 - consistently), they cannot be classed as the worst in this tier, not when other characters in this tier are "less relevant", shall we say right now.

The main win with Kirihara's victory at FPS2 is that it proved that Rosalina is not on her way out (in fact, it made Dabuz look like a right clown in his recent tweet about her); it's certainly enough to prove the naysayers wrong.

---

In fact, in a different topic, over the past few days, I have started to question my opinion on whether Mario really should be closer to the bottom of this tier after all; with the resurgence of Rosalina, and re-evaluating Mario's toolkit and his MU's with other top tiers, I am starting to warm more to the idea of "player skill is what drives Mario". I've always been a person who thinks Mario is just a really ama (I mean he kinda is pretty OP in a sense; all these top tier characters are, but Mario is looking a lot more tame to me right now).

I'm personally warming more to the idea of the bottom three in top tier being a variation of , and ... I might change around my vote soon... (if we include Marth, then I would say he would be slotted at the bottom, if not 2nd from bottom).

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Rosalina may be some other top tiers' worst or at least a bad MU for them... but she also has more random high/mid tier MUs where she starts to struggle when compared to other top tiers.

Almost anyone with a sword can go at least even with her if not beat her (Marth, Lucina, Corrin, MK (huge major roadblock, potentially the worst MU for any top tier and cannot be understated as to how much of a problem that MU is, if MK was more popular she would fall off of a cliff), Cloud, Ike, Roy... I think the Pits did not bad against her either IIRC but they almost don't exist now so I don't really know, Toon Link/Shulk from memory didn't do bad either). Marth, Lucina, Cloud are all very common nowadays, and there is a reasonable number of MKs and Corrins out there. Go to a major and you'll run into Ikes and Shulks, possibly a Toon Link in there as well.

Non-sword characters I'm less confident in my knowledge in but I'm sure there are at least a few who can claim at least even against her as well (I wanna say Peach maybe?). What this means is that Rosalina has a more volatile time trying to win majors. Less consistent, higher chance of getting bad luck in the bracket.

 

[JayZee1700]

Rosalina may be some other top tiers' worst or at least a bad MU for them... but she also has more random high/mid tier MUs where she starts to struggle when compared to other top tiers.

Almost anyone with a sword can go at least even with her if not beat her (Marth, Lucina, Corrin, MK (huge major roadblock, potentially the worst MU for any top tier and cannot be understated as to how much of a problem that MU is, if MK was more popular she would fall off of a cliff), Cloud, Ike, Roy... I think the Pits did not bad against her either IIRC but they almost don't exist now so I don't really know, Toon Link/Shulk from memory didn't do bad either). Marth, Lucina, Cloud are all very common nowadays, and there is a reasonable number of MKs and Corrins out there. Go to a major and you'll run into Ikes and Shulks, possibly a Toon Link in there as well.

Non-sword characters I'm less confident in my knowledge in but I'm sure there are at least a few who can claim at least even against her as well (I wanna say Peach maybe?). What this means is that Rosalina has a more volatile time trying to win majors. Less consistent, higher chance of getting bad luck in the bracket.

True. Also note that Rosa's light weight gives her some more troublesome MU's against heavy hitters like Bowser, DK, and especially Ike, due to the whole sword thing. Another thing is that she's a tall character, so her hurt box is large, making her easier to hit, and therefore kill her. Whereas she may have some results here and there, she has so many more bad MU's than the majority of the top tier, so it's difficult to place her in a specific spot.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Eh...I could move Rosalina up, but I see no real good reason for her to be above anyone else in this tier right now, as everyone here has done something big at some point. The absolute highest she would be is #7, and even then, I feel like that's too reactionary and recency-biased for us to make an accurate judgment, where everyone else here has proven themselves multiple times through several players to be amazing, even if they didn't win tournaments.

On that note, I did slightly change my vote in other ways, and I'm willing to move Rosalina as high as just below Marth if anyone is willing to argue against my points.

 

[Routa]

Pit does decently against Rosa, but I would say that Rosa still has a small advantage if you ask me. I would also add Wario to that cast of characters that might have a slight edge over Rosa due to some weird things against her (Dair -> half waft is always true combo for example). But then again some think that Rosa destroys Wario so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Bowserboy3]

The idea that all sword characters simply do well/beat Rosalina needs to go out of the window.

The only characters with swords that legitimately beat/have an advantage over Rosalina are Meta Knight, Cloud, and Corrin; these characters have tools to not only deal with Luma, but effectively deal with Rosalina. This is a big deal that others lack. Meta Knight is self explanatory and well established. Cloud is arguably a less oppressive (but still oppressive, if you understand me) version of Meta Knight in the tools he has at his disposal and what they do to Rosalina. The reason Corrin does good against Rosalina (as opposed to Marth or Lucina, as you are all probably wondering), is the fact that Corrin does what Marth and Lucina want to do, with fewer button presses, while possessing less of their disadvantages in the MU, which are overlooked and will be explained below.

Marth and Lucina do well against Rosalina in the neutral, provided Rosalina is playing her more defensive style. If however, Rosalina chooses to play the more agressive neutral game (in fact, only backed up by Kirihara against Komo's Marth yesterday), she has many tools to compete with them; Dash Attack, Nair, RAR Bair, Dtilt. All of these moves allow Rosalina to outspace them and create openings. Now some of you will be saying "but their sword can deal with Luma effectively". This is true in a sense... but what are they going to do when Luma is gone, huh? Go back and watch Komo's Marth game with Kirihara. There's not a huge deal Marth can do against her. Of note, Dash Attack clanks with all of Marth and Lucina's grounded attacks, which is also a boon. Another big difference in this MU are the ways each are able to capitalise off of an opening. Marth ans Lucina's actual combo game is relatively limited; the amount of actual combos they can get on Rosalina is not very extensive due to her lower weight and fall speed often launching her too far; Dthrow combos are more or less useless against her. Rosalina can capitalise off of a hit much better than they can. All this is before considering that Marth and Lucina struggle to land; THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THIS MU AND IS OVERLOOKED ON MANY AN OCCASION. Rosalina's BEST trait is arguably her ability to juggle with Uair. Marth and Lucina have landing issues. This is a reason why Corrin does better in the MU, as Corrin does not get juggled as easily as them, as Dair is able to challenge Rosalina's juggle attempts thanks to it's stall then fall property and forgiving hitboxes (as well as being good at getting rid of Luma, even if Rosalina shields the landing hit, it can get rid of Luma. Marth and Lucina deal with Rosalina better than most characters, but they do not straight up have the advantage merely because they possess a sword. This MU is much more even than the average player would think (please note that I main Rosalina and Marth so I can see both sides of this MU).

Characters such as Ike and Roy inherit the same issues as Marth and Lucina, but suffer harder in terms of juggling due to having even worse landing options, or just being easier to juggle in general. Roy in particular certainly does not do very well against Rosalina due to his inherent design. Ike does better against her than Roy does, if only because her weight can allow for some early KO's given the correct reads, but if Roy truly did do well against Rosalina, why did Abadango use his pocket Rosalina agsinst Ryo's Roy when his Mewtwo wasn't working, eh?

The Pits do decently well against Rosalina, thanks to their jumps enabling them to escape juggle situations better, but that's all there is to it. They have nothing exciting to shout about in the MU; their neutral doesn't particularly out-do Rosalina's, and their ability to safely deal with Luma is lacking compared to other characters without being punished for attempting. Pit and Dark Pit don't exactly win the MU, but their tools prevent them from outright losing, which is notable for them.

Yes, Link and Toon Link also have swords, but they do also have projectiles, of which are shut down 9 times out of 10 thanks to Rosalina posessing the single best move in the game at neutralising projectiles - that and her having a meat shield to soak up a projectile whose intent is to create an opening, only to realise using said projectile left an opening for Rosalina when Luma tanks the projectile. Link and Toon Link's swords are not used for spacing like Cloud, Corrin or even Marth and Lucina's are; simply possessing them does not make the MU's any easier.

Let me list off the legitimate bad MU's Rosalina has for you all:

• Meta Knight
• Cloud
• Corrin

The MU's that Rosalina can struggle with (ie: even or a minor advantage to one character) would include:

• Bayonetta
• Marth/Lucina

All other MU's in the game are do-able; there are no other MU's in the game that should theoretically give Rosalina trouble.

I'm not trying to get everyone to change their votes on Rosalina, but Kirihara's win has been a perfect point to crush some of the speculation on her. It's shown us that she is not falling off in relevancy (and if anything, her good MU's with Diddy Kong and Sonic, two characters that not many characters can outright say they can compete with, are enough to prove her relevancy). As always, vote on what you all agree on, but I do hope I have at least taught some of you something you didn't know about the character. If anybody wants to ask any real questions about her as a character, do not hesitate to private message me; soon to be 3 years of using the character give me a broad depth of knowledge on the character.

 

[Frihetsanka]

The idea that all sword characters simply do well/beat Rosalina needs to go out of the window.

To be fair, I imagine when most people think about sword characters they think about Cloud, Corrin, and Marth/Lucina, and maybe Ike. Link and Toon Link may have swords, but they play really differently. Meta Knight's disjoint range is rather poor, and Roy is kind of more of a brawler. Pit, as well, feels more like a brawler. These are all technically sword characters, but when people say "struggles against swords" I generally assume they mean Cloud, Corrin, and Marth/Lucina (and maybe Ike).

All other MU's in the game are do-able; there are no other MU's in the game that should theoretically give Rosalina trouble.

Having 3-5 bad MUs isn't great when you're a top tier character, especially when some of those characters are fairly common.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Having 3-5 bad MUs isn't great when you're a top tier character, especially when some of those characters are fairly common.

So we're going to state this a bad thing when we just recently discussed Bayonetta's bad/tough MU's, and she has at least 3-4... yet now it's a problem?

What about Fox? Fox struggles with Rosalina herself, Luigi, Ryu, Kirby, Bayonetta etc. Mario also struggles with Rosalina herself, along with characters like Luigi, Cloud, Marth, Lucina, arguably Sheik etc.

It's not uncommon for the top tier characters to have around 3-5 bad MU's in this game. The combination of the sheer volume of characters, and the solid balance in the game means that top tier characters averaging out on 1 or if unlucky, 2 bad MU's in this game is literally impossible.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You're over inflating how well Rosalina does against multiple characters there. Ike has taken down multiple known Rosalinas: worst case for Ike its 45-55 (which was the range I was talking about in my first post: struggles more than the other top tiers not struggles period, which means she has a greater risk of losing to them then say Sheik who runs over most of that list) which means Rosalina is still going to have an actual battle on her hands. And quite frankly from what I've seen Marth and Lucina do not struggle to land against Rosalina nearly as much as you seem to believe. Particularly with Marth murdering Luma left right and centre the whole match. Is Rosalina helpless? Heavens no. But she has to put in more work than most of the other top tiers. Which means she's in a lower spot compared to them, majors are an endurance challenge after all. The more MUs where you really have to focus the more times you'll slip up.

She has more than 5 bad/tough MUs. Which is why almost nobody is going to move them up their list. If she only had 5 MUs that were 50-50 or worse, she would be winning more. She's not, hasn't been in ages in comparison to some of the characters above her (Sonic is the main exception, but they get overall more placements by a good chunk), there is only one logical outcome: she has more bad MUs than that or her bad MUs are significantly worse than advertised. Kirihana's win changed nothing in that regard. Long term consistency does, not a one off win that's is perfectly within the character's range (top 12 or so characters in the game are all able to win a major).

 

[Bowserboy3]

You're over inflating how well Rosalina does against multiple characters there. Ike has taken down multiple known Rosalinas: worst case for Ike its 45-55 (which was the range I was talking about in my first post: struggles more than the other top tiers not struggles period, which means she has a greater risk of losing to them then say Sheik who runs over most of that list) which means Rosalina is still going to have an actual battle on her hands. And quite frankly from what I've seen Marth and Lucina do not struggle to land against Rosalina nearly as much as you seem to believe. Particularly with Marth murdering Luma left right and centre the whole match. Is Rosalina helpless? Heavens no. But she has to put in more work than most of the other top tiers. Which means she's in a lower spot compared to them, majors are an endurance challenge after all. The more MUs where you really have to focus the more times you'll slip up.

She has more than 5 bad/tough MUs. Which is why almost nobody is going to move them up their list. If she only had 5 MUs that were 50-50 or worse, she would be winning more. She's not, hasn't been in ages in comparison to some of the characters above her (Sonic is the main exception, but they get overall more placements by a good chunk), there is only one logical outcome: she has more bad MUs than that or her bad MUs are significantly worse than advertised. Kirihana's win changed nothing in that regard. Long term consistency does, not a one off win that's is perfectly within the character's range (top 12 or so characters in the game are all able to win a major).

If you can find notable examples in top level play of Ike solidly beating Rosalina, then your points may hold some weight. However, there are no recent sets of Rosalina v Ike (let alone in top level play) to analyse. The only notable Rosalina v Ike there is in top level play is Dabuz v Ryuga at TBH5, which Dabuz won 2-0. Outside of that, you have videos like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtA6rVoGUss and this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7Ng-4IJLZs, none of which are really notable enough to prove either way (even though Rosalina come out on top).

In regards to Marth and landing vs Rosalina, the fact is that due to Rosalina's fall speed, air speed, range etc, she has an option to cover all of Marth's options for "escape". Dair is too slow to throw out to escape, but should he choose another option, be it simply airdodge, or jump away, she can catch him.

Take this specific example - https://youtu.be/ec7fDBATD3o?t=203. Marth jumped away, but Rosalina was able to follow him and punish him for trying to get away (this is before you consider that King missed the grabs on letting Marth land, meaning he could have rinsed and repeated).

Here is another example, same set - https://youtu.be/ec7fDBATD3o?t=245. Look how much damage Marth took from being sent into the air from just whiffing that Usmash. This is scarier when you think that the only reason Marth was able to land was because King decided not to react and press the button first.

An example in top level play for you now - https://youtu.be/ds71ldAfW28?t=486. Marth cannot safely land against Rosalina without taking some hefty damage first, or being pushed into a disadvantaged position (off stage/to the ledge).

On the topic of MU's, why don't we look at Dabuz's most recent MU chart (relevant, it's December 2016)? - https://twitter.com/DabuzSenpai/status/811028267226382336

In said MU chart, there is 1 MU that is considered truly bad (by all definitions of the term), and that is of course Meta Knight. There is 1 more MU that is considered bad in this instance, and that is surprise surprise, Cloud. What's notable here is that Dabuz notes that Rosalina has counterplay, of which was demonstrated by Kirihara yesterday (off stage and ledge play).

Then come the "even or slight favour to the opponent" MU's. These cannot be considered truly bad, as they are potentially even. Here, there are 4 characters (notable of which is Corrin, who is ranked lower than I would have personally ranked him). Bayonetta is expected to be here, but in recent times, we've seen Dabuz eliminate Bayonetta enough to back up the "even" side of things. Peach and Mewtwo I can see the reasons behind tbh, but I also see why it can be even. These are fair assumptions.

The rest of the MU chart is all solidly even or Rosalina advantage (of note, Dabuz considers Ike a minor advantage for Rosalina; perhaps this is just a case of low level and top level MU's playing out differently. This would explain why Cloud doesn't outright body Rosalina in top level, and arguably why Corrin is placed lower than I would have placed him). Look at all the sword characters in even or below; having a sword does not mean you win the MU guys.

If the arguably best Rosalina thinks she has no more than 2 legitimately bad MU's, 6 if we consider the ones he stated as "even or slight favour to the opponent" as bad too, I think that around about sums up that she doesn't have a huge deal more than 5 bad/tough MU's.

I think when Dabuz feels Rosalina doesn't lose too many MU's, I think that pretty much proves that I am not "over inflating" how well she does in certain MU's one bit. With Ike for example, you do have some legitimate input, as you play said character, but how can you sit there and state that us, the Rosalina players, are wrong/over inflating her MU's (such as Marth) when you don't even play her (or Marth for that matter)? I appreciate it's for discussion terms, and it's good, as you did raise some good points for debate.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Honestly, something that's more surprising to me is just how many different players we saw. I just recently joined the club of believing she's quite close to top tier near Marth, and this tournament solidified it. Though Mr. E's was the only one that actually won important games, the others proved to me that she is indeed the viable pocket character I didn't believe she was before now.

 

[Bowserboy3]

In most cases, if you're wanting to use Marth or Lucina, Marth is usually the better main character, and you can build your characters/secondaries around him. Lucina is likely the better secondary/counterpick character, if just because she requires less technical precision than Marth; essentially she requires less overall effort, which is notable for a secondary character.

If we totally discount waifu factor (which to be honest, is likely the reason behind him using her), Nairo is probably better using Lucina for certain MU's as he's done in the past.

This isn't to say that Marth can't be a secondary character. It's a choice purely down to the player. For example, Komo still uses Cloud and more recently Marth. He's willing to put that bit extra effort to use him. That is fine. Players like Nairo, or even Nakat, prefer to use Lucina, and that is also fine.

 

[Ryng_tolu]

In most cases, if you're wanting to use Marth or Lucina, Marth is usually the better main character, and you can build your characters/secondaries around him. Lucina is likely the better secondary/counterpick character, if just because she requires less technical precision than Marth; essentially she requires less overall effort, which is notable for a secondary character.

If we totally discount waifu factor (which to be honest, is likely the reason behind him using her), Nairo is probably better using Lucina for certain MU's as he's done in the past.

This isn't to say that Marth can't be a secondary character. It's a choice purely down to the player. For example, Komo still uses Cloud and more recently Marth. He's willing to put that bit extra effort to use him. That is fine. Players like Nairo, or even Nakat, prefer to use Lucina, and that is also fine.

Honestly i don't think this is how a tier list work. Basically i agree with what Zero said, it's not like "well, Lucina is worse than Marth in every aspects, makes no sense use her and not Marth so i put her 10 position after Marth".

Those 2 charters are so much similar, i honestly don't see how so many charters can be better than Lucina but worse than Marth, that just make not much sense to me.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Honestly i don't think this is how a tier list work. Basically i agree with what Zero said, it's not like "well, Lucina is worse than Marth in every aspects, makes no sense use her and not Marth so i put her 10 position after Marth".

Those 2 charters are so much similar, i honestly don't see how so many charters can be better than Lucina but worse than Marth, that just make not much sense to me.

We know that's not how a tier list works; at no point did I mention Lucina's ranking in the tier list during that post. I was talking merely from a counterpicking perspective.

 

[Browny]

I won't go into the main reasons I placed Rosalina above Cloud and Sonic; they're the only two characters I feel could realistically be above her, I'll say that much.

But considering she's one of the only characters as of late to actually win a major, I think that alone is deserving for her to be closer to the middle of this tier rather than at the bottom.

For me, Browny summed up the main reason why I see she gets ranked so low...



This is interesting, because you can arguably argue the same in top level play for other characters. Fox literally has Larry. Mewtwo has Abadango. Sonic has... wait, who commonly uses Sonic in top 8 and solo mains him? Exactly.

Rosalina has Dabuz, and now Kirihara. She's pretty much being used more than a fair chunk of the top tier.

Rosalina also at least has the distinction of being certain characters potential worst MU's in top tier; Sonic, Diddy, arguably Sheik, Ryu (if we consider him top tier like on the 4BR list), and Fox are all characters that can consider Rosalina one of, if not their worst MU (I'd add Mario to that list, but Cloud and Marth arguably more notable than Rosalina for him).

There are some characters in this tier that don't really stand out as "oh, I am multiple top tier character's worst MU" - Mario, Fox, Mewtwo all stand out to me as characters that are really f***ing solid, but not characters that are the worst MU of multiple top tiers (and this is in no way saying those characters are not top tier; they indeed are still top tier).

I really don't see how she's one of the worst in this tier, at all. I think it's high time we start re-evaluating where she really deserves to be placed.

Mewtwo has WaDi and Rich Brown both dominating their regions which are pretty large regions as well.

Fox is the biggest outlier. Larry could do well with anyone, remembering this guy won the big 3DS tournament with bowser.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Mewtwo has WaDi and Rich Brown both dominating their regions which are pretty large regions as well.

Fox is the biggest outlier. Larry could do well with anyone, remembering this guy won the big 3DS tournament with bowser.

That's a good point.

WaDi in particular has improved leaps and bounds lately.

I also agree with your point on Fox; I couldn't find the best ways to describe how I felt about him but you hit the nail on the head.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Ok, I will be updating in the next day or so, so as usual, anyone yet to vote or on the edge about changing your current vote, I recommend you do so now.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

(small mii brawler lol)
,,,,,,,,,

I find Cloud to be a little overrated, mainly due his exploitable recovery and difficulty against close range combat.

(I really shouldn't have to say this but) If you disagree with me then feel free to reply back why, just don't be **** about it or act like a 5 year old doing so.

 

[lbrasz44]

Figures that the top tier is the hardest to order, since most here are all on a similar power level to each, and quite frankly their perception heavily relies on who did well most with any these characters at the last tourney. I placed Diddy number one because that is the one character throughout this game's lifespan that has shown a consistent prevalence in the meta due to the reliability of each of his tools compared to others, while hardly experiencing any low turnouts or sparse results on a high level for any period of time.

 

[Bowserboy3]

(small mii brawler lol)

You know, if we voted on all characters and included the Mii's of all sizes and movesets, I'd have probably ranked Mii Brawler somewhere in top 3, at lowest.

Perhaps it's a blessing in disguise that the Mii's have restricted sizes and movesets.

Actually, we recently allowed Small Mii Brawler at our weekly (two days ago to be precise), for fun.

He won.

The UK's general ruling is we allow Guest Mii's on either 1111, or a specific moveset; the generally agreed best moveset for each, such as 1122 for Brawler. It's basically the ruling Beast used and it works fine. I'm not sure what the ruling is in all other parts of the world, however.