Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

[Frihetsanka]

I understand why people would want it to be called Low Tier and not Bottom but I just look at the physical placements, if it's at the bottom it's the bottom tier in my eyes. Doesn't matter if it's a relatively minuscule difference in viability between the two tiers to me, if only the Top 15 characters were in game, then I'd be fine with calling Bayonetta Top Tier and Meta Knight Bottom Tier, because she's close to the top and he's close to the bottom. Maybe I'm taking it too literally.

I would not be okay with calling Meta Knight Bottom tier.

Take a look at this Battlerite tier list: https://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/battlerite-tier-list

You have the following tiers:

Tier List Descriptors
Tier S+ - These Champions are undeniably too strong and can be placed in any composition and succeed.

Tier S - Champions which are often first pick, first ban material and are considered top tier.

Tier A+ - Above the point balance, these Champions comprise most team compositions and should see only minor changes.

Tier A - The focal point of balance. These Champions should see few if any changes.

Tier B+ - Not viable in all situations, these Champions are generally considered good, but often require a highly skilled individual to get the most out of them.

Tier B - Considered weak, team compositions generally need to be built around a Champion in this pool to make them viable. Rarely, if ever seen in competitive play.

Tier C - Very low pick rate and not considered viable."

Now, here's the kicker... There are currently no characters lower than B+. There are two characters in B+, and the rest are A- or higher.

Let's look at what tiers could mean in Smash 4, shall we?

Top tier: Characters that define the meta and are significantly stronger than average.

High tier: Strong characters that have significant enough flaws to not be overpowered.

High-mid tier: Characters that have noticable flaws yet tend to still be considered fairly good.

Low-mid tier: Characters with significant flaws but also noticable strength. These characters are still competitively viable.

Low tier: Barely viable characters who will generally not see much competitive use.

Bottom tiers: Joke characters used for sandbagging.

So, let's look at Melee again, shall we? Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Marth are considered top tier, and they are, indeed, meta-defining. Jigglypuff, Peach, Ice Climbers, and Captain Falcon are high tier, and while they are considered strong, they are not really considered overpowered by most players (Jigglypuff is mainly carried by Hungrybox and Peach by Armada). Pikachu and Samus are high-mid, and they get some respectable use while it's still acknowledged that they have some significant drawbacks. As for low-mid, you do see the occasional Ganondorf or Toon Link in Melee, and in Smash 4 you see the occasional Pac-Man or Palutena make a splash.

Low tiers in Melee are pretty bad and not really used much at all. In Smash 4, I think the main contesters for low tier are King Dedede (not much use, but he does get some regional results), Ganondorf (again, regional results), Zelda (Ven and Purple Guy get some results), and Jigglypuff (stray results here and there). I don't think any of those are nearly as bad as Melee Bowser, Pichu, or Kirby.

So... Theoretically we could see a tier list with just High tier, High-mid tier, and Low-mid tier. I think Project M might be pretty close to having such a balanced cast. For the time being, we do have a top tier (but not an SS tier, which Melee, 64, and Brawl had).

Bowserboy3 Is there a limit on how many characters can move up this round or could potentially 4-5 characters move up?

 

[MarioManTAW]

I would not be okay with calling Meta Knight Bottom tier.

Let's look at what tiers could mean in Smash 4, shall we?

Top tier: Characters that define the meta and are significantly stronger than average.

High tier: Strong characters that have significant enough flaws to not be overpowered.

High-mid tier: Characters that have noticable flaws yet tend to still be considered fairly good.

Low-mid tier: Characters with significant flaws but also noticable strength. These characters are still competitively viable.

Low tier: Barely viable characters who will generally not see much competitive use.

Bottom tiers: Joke characters used for sandbagging.

Then what would you call him if he were the worst in the game? You can't say High tier, he couldn't possibly be "high" because he wouldn't above anyone else. EDIT: Maybe the best thing to do in such a situation would be to rename "High" tier to "Good" tier.

That's one way of defining the tiers, but it could (and maybe should) just as easily be:
Top: Best in the game
Bottom: Worst in the game
...with tiers added in the middle as necessary.

(But TBH I'm not actually sure that tier names matter as much as "these are the best," "these are the worst," "this is better than that," and "this and that are really close.")

 

[Frihetsanka]

Then what would you call him if he were the worst in the game? You can't say High tier, he couldn't possibly be "high" because he wouldn't above anyone else.

That's one way of defining the tiers, but it could (and maybe should) just as easily be:
Top: Best in the game
Bottom: Worst in the game
...with tiers added in the middle as necessary.

(But TBH I'm not actually sure that tier names matter as much as "these are the best," "these are the worst," "this is better than that," and "this and that are really close.")

The way I see it, a tier list is not simply a ranking of characters but rather dividing them into different tiers. Each tier will have some criteria that the character needs to fullfil in order to be that tier. Look at the Battlerite tier list: No character was placed in tier B or C, but those tiers were still there. In case some character would be nerfed enough to fall to tier B or C, then those tiers would exist.

Top tier, to me, doesn't just say "The best", it says "This character is too strong and should be nerfed". The game could, theoretically, have 0 characters that are too strong, and thus wouldn't have any top tier.

The way you propose it we might as well call tiers "Top 10 tier, Top 20 tier, top 30 tier, top 40 tier, top 50 tier, bottom 8 tier" or something like that. It could work, but it would be very different, and more of a ranking than a tier list.

I think that having descriptions for each tiers can help. To me, characters like Jigglypuff and Ganondorf seem too strong to be Bottom tier, since Bottom tier makes me think "Not really viable, pretty much a joke".

 

[Bowserboy3]

Is there a limit on how many characters can move up this round or could potentially 4-5 characters move up?

It all just depends on the amount of votes we get for this round. I can envisage around 2 or potentially 3 characters moving up at this rate.

 

[Bowserboy3]

A little slow thus far, but no matter; I wanted this round to go on for a while.

However, there's only so long a round can go on for. Another week and I'll probably update.

 

[Browny]

-1 Marth

Hes good, but with one player carrying him hard its difficult to see how hes any better than MK, who coincidentally MKLeo helped rise in the tier list.

 

[Bowserboy3]

-1 Marth

Hes good, but with one player carrying him hard its difficult to see how hes any better than MK, who coincidentally MKLeo helped rise in the tier list.

Good point, but I will mention...

"one player carrying him"... true... at top level.

Look at tournament results from any other level of play and he almost always appears in the higher end of things. Meta Knight doesn't, and even characters like ZSS, Mewtwo, and Rosalina are all less common than Marth.

And it is a bit unfair to say there is just one player carrying him hard. While Mr E doesn't have the performances of Leo, he almost always places top 16.

I'd also say that if a player is carrying a character at top level, what it shows us is that said character can absolutely perform at said level. Leo's Meta Knight for example, has dropped off lately because it's been less and less effective at top level, which shows us that Meta Knight perhaps cannot perform as well at top level anymore. Marth is still performing at top level, which shows us that he absolutely is a top level character.

That and multiple top level players all believe that Marth has good/advantageous MU's against the majority of the top tier cast (Dabuz, ZeRo, Leo, Mr R etc). That kind of speaks for itself really.

 

[Nah]

"one player carrying him"... true... at top level.

Look at tournament results from any other level of play and he almost always appears in the higher end of things. Meta Knight doesn't, and even characters like ZSS, Mewtwo, and Rosalina are all less common than Marth.

And it is a bit unfair to say there is just one player carrying him hard. While Mr E doesn't have the performances of Leo, he almost always places top 16.

I'd also say that if a player is carrying a character at top level, what it shows us is that said character can absolutely perform at said level. Leo's Meta Knight for example, has dropped off lately because it's been less and less effective at top level, which shows us that Meta Knight perhaps cannot perform as well at top level anymore. Marth is still performing at top level, which shows us that he absolutely is a top level character.

Really most characters are "carried by one player" at the tippy-top level, since when you use a sample size that small basically all the characters only have 1 or 2 people (usually) repping them. So I agree that saying that Marth's not that good because Leo "carries" him is not a fair statement.

What I don't agree with though is the idea that one person proves a character's potential or that the character is better than people think because of one person's performances. This is because one person's play does not really provide enough data to reach a solid conclusion. It doesn't show that they're doing well because the character's actually secret high tier, as it doesn't account for things like player skill, MU inexperience, bracket luck, Smash 4 being Smash 4, and other possible factors. This is not unreasonable to think, as this is not Melee or Brawl where you just do top tier things and go "lol I win" because they're not playing a top tier--it's very much possible for the bottom 2/3 of the cast to actually do stuff every now again and not be doomed to never ever accomplishing anything at all. Unfavorable MUs are simply just unfavorable and not auto-lose situations (usually).

When more and more players do well with a character, and do consistently well with them, it gets harder and harder to just chalk it up to player skill/MU inexperience/bracket luck/etc. No one in their right mind can/would really say that "Diddy isn't as good as people think, he just gets by on the aforementioned things" when he does very well at all levels of play across various players for a very long time. So the only conclusion one can really make is "Diddy is a good character", and this is supported by theoretical reasons too. Not saying that this doesn't apply to Marth toothough (although I am personally still unsure if he's bottom of top tier or top of high tier, but whatever), since he's been doing fairly well at all levels of play via more than a couple of people for a long enough time now+other reasons to believe he's good. But it does apply to some characters, like Robin for example.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Votes thus far:

5
4
2
1
1
1
-2

So... Samus and Link are likely to move up. Shulk is a possible candidate, though he'd need more votes.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Replace my Pac-Man vote with a Marth down vote. That one is looking a little more likely

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Votes thus far:

5
4
2
1
1
1
-2

So... Samus and Link are likely to move up. Shulk is a possible candidate, though he'd need more votes.

You missed a Roy vote.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Is one of those Marth downvotes mine?
If it is good, if it's not
-
First, we had
"Marth is just irrelevant Cloud! He loses to all Top and High Tiers!"
after MKLeo's success, this became
"Marth loses no MUs and has little to no weaknesses!"
then I leave the site for a few weeks, come back and apparently this has become
"Marth wins against every Top Tier!"
Really, I wonder when this site is just gonna straight up admit that it thinks that Marth wins every single matchup in this game 55:45 at the very least. It's honestly disgusting how this character went from underrated to the most overrated Smash character of all time.
Open your eyes.
I'd be saying so much more, but this place gives me enough stomach ulcers and unecessary headaches as is.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Is one of those Marth downvotes mine?
If it is good, if it's not
-
First, we had
"Marth is just irrelevant Cloud! He loses to all Top and High Tiers!"
after MKLeo's success, this became
"Marth loses no MUs and has little to no weaknesses!"
then I leave the site for a few weeks, come back and apparently this has become
"Marth wins against every Top Tier!"
Really, I wonder when this site is just gonna straight up admit that it thinks that Marth wins every single matchup in this game 55:45 at the very least. It's honestly disgusting how this character went from underrated to the most overrated Smash character of all time.
Open your eyes.
I'd be saying so much more, but this place gives me enough stomach ulcers and unecessary headaches as is.

As much as I love you, your posts seem to verge on the side of hate for Marth now; whether it's because you use Lucina and are jealous of him, whether it's because you you don't like that more people seem to support Marth than Lucina, I honestly don't know. Nothing in that post is factual one bit, and is all an attempt to put the character down because you simply don't like him.

Nobody on this planet thinks Marth seriously wins against every top tier; it's well known that Marth struggles with Sonic; Sonic likes characters committing so he can run away with the game, and Marth has to commit if he wants to stand a chance against Sonic. Diddy Kong is also a relative problem, despite what you hear ZeRo claim, as Banana stops Marth's great grounded movement and options being threatening. Banana on the ledge puts Marth in a sticky situation, as the only real safe option to get around this is to jump, and Marth doesn't cover below him all that well.

But whether you like to believe it or not, Marth has the tools to do well in every other top tier MU. Some are more difficult than others, such as Cloud, but none of them are bad in the slightest. He's a relevant counterpick to a few, including Mario and Fox (and if we consider Ryu top tier like in the official list, him too), and he also does better against characters like Rosalina and Sheik than the majority of the cast too.

On top of this, Marth doesn't really struggle with any other character in the game. There are a few that are a minor advantage for the opponent, such as Dedede, and even then there are some debatable whether they are truly minor advantages, such as Pikachu, Toon Link and Mega Man. This is an incredibly small amount of "problem" MU's.

Marth has been performing well consistently for well over a year now; it's not just a fad. If we take a look at his results totals, he's still one of the highest scorers. If you were to take a look at DasKoopa's results thread, you'd see that Marth is ranked as the 9th best character results wise. If we filtered Smashboards's results traker to just this patch (from 20th May 2016 to the present), Marth has the 6th best results total across all recorded tournaments.

Explain to me how a character that performs this well doesn't deserve to be a top tier character. Explain to me in the face of these results and his great MU spread how he is "overrated". Explain to me why we are all wrong, despite the fact the multiple top players all believe Marth to be a top tier character also. How can a character with these stats to his name be "the most overrated Smash character of all time"?

If anyone needs to open their eyes, it's you my friend. You need to stop letting character hate, jealousy, whatever it is, flowing over into your posts like that. I like how you are passionate for Lucina; there aren't enough people out there willing to sing Lucina's praises (as you know I am one of them), but some of your posts about her from that past have pretty much implied that you simply don't like how Marth is considered the better character of the two, and will do anything to bring him down a peg.

This needs to stop.

Question to you all: shall we start calling Fox overrated? I mean, if we're using the the "Marth is overrated" structure, Fox is carried by one player at top level, of whom has been placing less and less in recent times. His results aren't much better than Marth's (better in some areas, worse in others). And if we bring Fox MU's into the equation, Fox loses more top tier MU's than he does win or even perform even in them; Sheik, Bayonetta, Ryu, Marth and Mario are all MU's he is commonly cited to struggle with (this is before considering others like Luigi amd Kirby). The only top tier he legitimately has the advantage over is Sonic.

With all this in mind, one could argue that Fox is being overrated... but we don't, because we all know that despite these things, Fox is a very capable character. Larry has shown us how to play as Fox at top level, and that's why he's clearly a top tier.

So why is this different with Marth? Why do we seem to hate on the idea that "Leo carries Marth", when Larry does just the same with Fox? Why do we gloss over the fact that Marth's MU's are incredibly good overall when there are characters with arguably worse MU's than him? I just don't get it at all.

Now, I don't need you all to answer that question; clearly Fox isn't overrated - he's a darn good character and has proven his worth for a while now. The comparison is used to put into perspective how good Marth actually is doing right now

It's easy to make a character look overrated. It's only when you look at the data and the facts that you realise how good a character actually is.

 

[FamilyTeam]

If anyone needs to open their eyes, it's you my friend. You need to stop letting character hate, jealousy, whatever it is, flowing over into your posts like that. I like how you are passionate for Lucina; there aren't enough people out there willing to sing Lucina's praises (as you know I am one of them), but some of your posts about her from that past have pretty much implied that you simply don't like how Marth is considered the better character of the two, and will do anything to bring him down a peg.

None of this has anything to do with me liking Lucina or hating Marth or jealousy or whatever (me being "jealous" at a character is something I actually don't even know how it'd work. If I'd be jealous of anything, it'd be Diddy with all them results), especially when everytime I talk to other Lucina mains, I seem like one of the least optimistic of them about her MU chart/tier list placement, and I always acknowledged that for most Marth is a better overall pick. All of this has to do with me honestly being horrified by some of the stuff I've been reading about him.
If this sort of thing were happening with Lucina I would actually be saying the exact same things while still playing her. I just, honest to God, think some people are glorifying him way too much.
I could write a rant like this for at the very least 4 more characters if I wanted, but I don't. I don't think it's relevant.
I have nothing against Marth, nor have I ever had. I am just extremely vocal about things I personally do not agree with, which you probably have noticed out of these 14 or so months we have talked to each other.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Neither Fox or Marth are carried by one player lol.

There are many players for each character:

:

• MKLeo
• Pugwest
• Mr. E
• Fuwa
• False

:

• Larry Lurr
• Xzax
• Charliedaking
• Sodrek
• Megafox
• Dugan
• SH
• Shogun
• Nakat
• Ksev

Neither characters are carried by one player. In fact, I can't think of any that are. People need to serisualy stop saying this just because one player is better than the others. If we use that logic, than nearly every character is "carried" by their #1 player just because he's a little superior to the rest.

As for Marth (And Lucina) it just makes zero sense to put a character with such a bad matchup spread above upper mid. He goes -2 or even -3 with , as well as going -2 aganist and -1 aganist all of , maybe (That one might be even). And that's just for the characters that I know sure. Other characters such as could possibly beat him too, I just don't know as much about the matchup. Marth and Lucina do extremely poorly aganist zoning, and does bad aganist heavyweights too. He does very poorly aganist the top and high tiers in total too. Marth's role in the metagame is pretty much just being a counterpick to Mario and maybe Cloud and Lucario. The only reason why he gets such good results are because of the player's skill.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Winter, just because we reach the same end conclusion that we think Marth is overrated, that doesn't mean I agree with you.
I still think you don't even have an idea of what you're trying to talk about Marth, and not just me, but plenty of people have gone out of their way to say why you're misinformed/wrong.
Even I, someone that's thinking this site is overrating Marth way too much, am thinking that you're giving Marth way too little credit, and like I said before. I am actually one of the least optimistic Marcina mains about both of their placements and MU chart.
Current Marth definitely ain't losing any MUs -2.

• Bowser and DK are annoying, but Marcina either gets cheesed by them instantly or they dominate;
  
• Pacman is even at worst, and probably +1 to them more realistically;
• Marcina losing to Toon Link is something we Brazilians end up saying a lot because one of our best players is a Toon Link main, so I'd atleast agree it's probably -1, but definitely not -2, and to be honest I could see points for it being Even;
• Having experience against both a few of my training partners who solo main Sonic and quite a few matches with one of the best players in my country that uses Sonic, I say with confidence this is -1, but a -1 is far from being hopeless. You just need to learn how to play the matchup completely differently and know how to keep your neutral state as much as possible, and with that, the matchup becomes far more doable. The problem is landing, losing the lead and being overwhelmed;
• Even though I'm pessimistic about Marcina's matchups, I am surprised to find I'm one of the only ones that say Bayo is even against her. Losing lead against Bayo is rough, and her catching your landings can be infernal, but Bayo's combo food for Marcina through and through, both of the characters can just breathe on her if they want to kill her, kill setups on her work very lineantly, escaping her combos is actually pretty alright if your SDI is on point and you know how and when to use either Fair, Uair or Dolphin Slash to escape what she does, and I think the biggest deal of all is that keeping her away is, while I'm not gonna say easy, is definitely very achievable, and that's where Marcina often tends to lose MUs. This might just come from my point of view, of a "fast-and-slow" keepaway type of player, but it's what I have personally analyzed;
• Fox is a matchup I believe is a loss (IIRC the Official Brazilian MU chart even has Fox as -2 for Marth), because of quite a few things: how strong and explosive his neutral can be, how fast he is, how good he is at catching landings and how his advantage state lets him capitalize a lot through that, and how Marcina is very good combo weight for him to combo into anything he needs, including kill setups (which Fox relies on a fair bit). I think this matchup is only -1, though, and back on that list, I actually voted for it to be -1, but I wasn't able to change it. Fox is almost as easy to combo as Captain Falcon and Bayonetta are for both Marth and Lucina, Fox is extremely light which means you can slap him out really early (such as one time I killed a Fox at 50 with Lucina's FSmash when he rolled out of ledge), Fox is the character where Marcina's kill setups work for approximately the second longest (behind Pikachu, in front of Sheik), and Fox's disadvantage against Marcina usually either ends with him having to guess something right at the ledge or dead at Late-Mid percents;
• You never even tried to argue how on Earth Duck Hunt and Villager wins against Marcina other than "projectiles";
• Cloud, imo, is even on every stage that's not Final Destination and Lylat;
• I have never seen anybody think Marcina loses to M2 before, that's new;
• Diddy and Sheik are two MUs I think are way too player dependant, so I guess that'd make them Even, but I do believe Diddy is more likely to be Even than Sheik is. When Sheik gets going on Marcina, she gets going. Void is the best one to show how this MU is played, since he always get a rather sadistic amount of damage off on any Marth he runs into out of whatever combo starter he can get, which Sheik has a lot of. Getting advantage on Marcina's tendency to get comboed and how their only real way of trying to get out of combos is Uair or Dolphin Slash (Dolphin Slash being something that can either work very well or go *extremely* wrong), and if she can manage to kill them before they get to Rage 3 (150%) then she can have a real advantage in this matchup. However, Ramin is a good point as to why this could be even, because all that damage is gonna matter little if in the end you just get them power to kill you as if you were a Jigglypuff. Sheik is good at winning the neutral and capitalizing on advantage, and she can both win Neutral a lot against Marcina and get many rewards from the advantage, but she needs to do something with the advantage with haste before she inevitably loses neutral and ends up just like I described Fox earlier: having to either guess something right and reset neutral or dead at 60-80%;
• Olimar is a matchup I have experience but can't opinate, ZSS is something I always considered Even (Neutral is good against her, advantage state is great, disadvantage state in this matchup makes me want to cry), and Link I have no experience, therefore I will not opinate. At Top Level, I could actually see this possibly being a win for Link, but this is speculation.

Again, will you actually try to listen to us atleast on this front?
I am the one that's getting labeled as a Marth hater currently and I think that you don't have a point. Please rethink. Atleast try to see what we're talking about.

 

[Bowserboy3]

As for Marth (And Lucina) it just makes zero sense to put a character with such a bad matchup spread above upper mid.

Now I know you're spouting nonsense.

1) You don't even use Marth (or Lucina), so you likely don't have any idea how any of the MU's actually play out.
2) Have you even done your research? Let me break down these ridiculous posts.

He goes -2 or even -3 with

This is a complete joke; if you seriously believe this then you need to quit playing Smash this instant. I imagine your basis for this is "Mega Man has lots of projectiles so he can wall Marth out", like it was a while back. Newsflash: Marth has a giant ass sword that beats out projectiles in their path with a simple sword swing. Mega Man cannot "out button" Marth up close because of how lackluster his up close buttons are compared to Marth's; Mega Man can attempt to hit Marth with his pellets up close but they are easily shielded and Mega Man takes a beating from Jab to Dancing Blade afterwards.

For what it's worth, Kameme lists Marth as one of Mega Man's worst MU's, being a -2 MU (FYI: Mario and Fox are -3, Marth, Pika, Shiek and Palutena are -2). On top of this, Pugwest also states that Marth's Mega Man MU is 55:45.

Don't try and tell me you know more about this MU than top players of both these characters.

as well as going -2 aganist

These are also ridiculous claims.

For Pac-Man, it's a similar thing with Mega Man; that huge hunk of metal he swings round beats all of Pac-Man's projectiles. But guess what?! Pac-Man's up close game is even worse than Mega Man's due to his grab being borderline unusable (this is before we consider that Marth's Ftilt even ourtanges Pac-Man's grab at max range...). Lack of disjoints also doesn't help Pac-Man either.

Want to know what's even more hilarious? Zage lists Marth as one of Pac-Man's utter WORST MU's. Not even 40:60, but 35:65 (I don't think it's quite that bad for Pac-Man, but it's definitely a bad MU). Players like False and Pugwest also list Pac-Man as a 60:40 MU for Marth. Don't know how you can possibly claim that Pac-Man even comes close to beating Marth.

Toon Link is debatable on who wins the MU, but it's most certainly not -2. Toon Link has good projectiles to force Marth into approaching, but like most characters, Marth "out button's" Toon Link up close. Pulling out a bomb at the wrong time also leaves Toon Link vulnerable which Marth can capitalise off of.

Zan lists this MU as even, as it should be. Pugwest and Fuwa believe the MU's to be slightly in the favour of Marth, however, so it's worth remembering that. Regardless of what it is, it is almost 100% crystal clear that Toon Link does not beat Marth.

Sonic is a bit of an enigma. Sonic used to do amazingly well against Marth, but it appears Marth's players have deciphered the MU quite well. Sonic's lack of disjoints is an issue for him, and Jab and Dtilt completely stop Spindash. Should Sonic mindlessly Spindash into Marth, that's a free Uair or Bair for him also.

Sonic is a character that probably does better against Marth at lower level of play. For example, I find Sonic annoying with Marth, but I am not a top player.

On that note, False and Fuwa have this MU as an even one, while Pugwest believes it to be a minor advantage for Marth. On the Sonic side, Komo has this MU listed as "even or slight advantage" for Sonic, while players like Wrath and KEN have it listed at a slight advantage for Sonic. Of all the MU's I've broken down so far, this is the first one that could even be considered somewhat troublesome for Marth, and even then, based on these opinions, it's likely only a minor disadvantage for Marth anyway.

and -1 aganist all of , maybe

Other characters such as could possibly beat him too

I won't break down all these MU's here because this will take too long and I don't have all year.

Of all of these MU's you have listed as being "-1" MU's (effectively 45:55), only a few of them are realistically plausible; if we take Pugwest, Fuwa, and False's MU charts and compare the characters that appear in at least two of them, we are left with Sheik, Diddy and Mewtwo. Even then, all three of these MU's are debatable in their own right. Marths as of late have been consistently beating Sheiks, and it appears the usage of perfect pivots and Jabs to confirm a Dancing Blade are key to this MU. Sheik gets "Smash 4'd" (KO'd by rage jank) by Marth extremely early due to her light weight and tipper. Mewtwo is in a similar boat here but has a strong set of up close options, and his Dtilt makes grounded spacing harder; in the air, Marth usually has the advantage. Diddy is a MU that I still believe is one of the true minor losses for Marth, as I explained in a previous post.

So, continuing on from this, some of the other characters you seem to claim are bad for Marth are hilarious too; notable ones include Bayonetta, Rosalina, Cloud and ZSS. It's well known that Marth has a better Rosalina MU than the majority of the cast; she has tools to make him squirm, but in the same vein, so does he to make her squirm. In no way is this losing for Marth; even is the most likely story, and Marth's mains back me up, such as Pugwest, Fuwa and False.

Bayonetta is also even, and again, the mains back this up. Marth has the tools to punish Bayonetta for making a mistake, and is one of the few characters that has options to edgeguard her (Counter), as well as prevent her from planking on the ledge.

Cloud is another MU that is currently even. Notice the word "currently". This is a MU that I feel could go either way as a minor advantage for either character at some point down the line. Cloud can keep up and even surpass Marth in some areas, but again, Marth has one of the best toolkits for punishing Cloud off stage.

ZSS is a little strange on the top player front; most of them agree that it is even, but Pugwest believes it could be a minor advantage for her. Both of these claims are strange, as all of Marth's players have consistent winning records over ZSS players. If anything, even speaks closer to the truth.

Family Team summed up the MU's with Bowser and DK 100%. To be honest, this can be applied to a lot of their MU's; ZSS, Sheik, Rosalina, are all MU's that they get dominated in but one mistake can turn around the match pretty quickly.

And the biggest of lies in this is stating that Duck Hunt has a winning MU over Marth. Before we even consider that Marth murders Duck Hunt off stage, no, Duck Hunt having projectiles does not mean it is a winning MU, not when they are as slow and streamlined as that. False, Pugwest and Fuwa all have this as a Marth advantage MU, and even Duck Hunt players like You3 have it listed as a minor disadvantage for Duck Hunt.

...

...

...

In short, Winter, all of these claims by you are complete and utter bulls**t. If you even attempted to back up your posts with some data or evidence, I've already invalidated it.

In future, please refrain from posting about Marth MU's; you have clearly shown here that you know absolutely nothing about Marth or any of his MU's. If you're gonna post, at least do some darn research about it first...

Geez...

 

[FamilyTeam]

I think the Diddy matchup is gonna play like an extreme ZSS matchup, and it's why I say it's even with uncertainty while believing that it's probably likely a -1 loss.
It's again, the same ordeal: Diddy wins neutral and Marcina is in for a ride until they do something to get out of a massive string or vortex, while at the same time being very good weigh to just be killed by his kill setups and absolutely suffering at the ledge, since it's not hard at all for Diddy to intercept everything they can try to do to get off it. Meanwhile, Marcina wins neutral, and Diddy can get hit from anywhere to 30 to even 50 damage per neutral win (ZeRo's Lucina punishing Diddy is a sight for sore eyes) and when realistic kill percent for Diddy starts at 70% for them, you kinda don't want to lose borderline half your stock per neutral loss.
So what is left is how both of them fare at Neutral so they can actually get to their punish game, and... really, to me, a smart Diddy should always win neutral more than Marcina should. Diddy's neutral is bonkers, as we all are aware of, and while Marcina's is far from lacking, Diddy has what it takes to beat them. ZeRo has figured this out and it's how he's been able to beat Leo's Marth consistently after getting 3-0'd by him months ago.
Then again, that 3-0 still happened, and it shows the other side of the coin in this matchup, "What if Marcina can win the neutral enough and capitalize on it just right", and then you get that set.
I personally think it's a loss for Marcina, but that set does give a good point as to it potentially being Even.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I have done research about it.

I don't want to continue this too much because it always gets too heated and causes problems. Anyway, Marth clearly loses to projectiles. Marth has virtually no options aganist most projectiles, espicially pellets. Marth almost can't ever get into Mega Man and Pac-Man at all unless the player makes a mistake. THAT's where Marth does good, however, if he DOES get in, he does really good.

I'm not gonna continue this on here any more because of how heated and how much problems it causes. If you want to continue this, do it in a conversation (I think that's what it's called on here) or somewhere else, I don't wanna derail this thread.

 

[Bigbomb2]

Link I have no experience, therefore I will not opinate. At Top Level, I could actually see this possibly being a win for Link, but this is speculation.

I gotchu. Talking in the Linkcord, among all levels from top Links to average Joe Links, is it is either even or a slight win for Marcina. Most of this is attributed to Link can get edge guarded super easy by a determined Marcina. However, Link and Marth go fairly back and forth on the ground. Link's grab is especially dangerous to Marth, especially down throw ->up air. You may get a couple that say Link wins by a little, but tbh it's just the better player wins for this MU. A lot of the same stuff applies to Tink as well.

Just my 2 cents and relaying some Link stuff

 

[FamilyTeam]

I can see that, thank you.

Again, don't see me as a Marth hater. I criticize and I defend characters as I see fit. I just defend my viewpoint, and not some weird agenda I'm bound to follow.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I have done research about it.

I don't want to continue this too much because it always gets too heated and causes problems. Anyway, Marth clearly loses to projectiles. Marth has virtually no options aganist most projectiles, espicially pellets. Marth almost can't ever get into Mega Man and Pac-Man at all unless the player makes a mistake. THAT's where Marth does good, however, if he DOES get in, he does really good.

I'm not gonna continue this on here any more because of how heated and how much problems it causes. If you want to continue this, do it in a conversation (I think that's what it's called on here) or somewhere else, I don't wanna derail this thread.

Yes, that's a good idea; please don't continue with your ridiculous claims.

I am going to continue on one point though, because I left a perfectly logical, well explained and backed up reply to counteract your points, with the backing of top player opinions.

Yet despite this, you are still sat on your high horse and in the face of all this, claim that "Marth clearly loses to projectiles".

How can you sit there, when you don't use Marth (and by extension, don't understand him and his tools), and state something almost as if it is fact, such as "Marth clearly loses to projectiles" when I have broken down to you on multiple occasions as to why he doesn't simply lose to projectiles? Marth doesn't clearly lose to projectiles at all; did you even read my post?

You are completely missing the ball here. Marth is a swordplay style zoner with anti-zoning tools.

So you don't miss it, I'll repeat it again - he has anti-zoning tools.

Characters with projectiles can use them to aid their neutral games, setups etc against Marth, but they cannot wall/zone him out indefinitely as you seem to make it out to be; this is due to him possessing that giant sword.

Now, simply possessing a giant sword doesn't mean you'll instantly be able to deal with projectiles. There are other characters in this game with giant swords, including (for the sake of argument, and not limited to) Ike and Cloud.

Let's take Ike as an example. Ike does indeed have that giant sword; even bigger than Marth's too. By my explanations, Ike should do well against them too, right? Wrong.

Marth possesses two important qualities that work hand in hand with his sword, and that allow him to deal safely with projectiles; speed and frame data.

Ike can attempt to use his sword to beat out projectiles, but it's a harder game for him because he is a lot more sluggish than Marth, and his frame data is noticeably slower, so it is not as practical to use his sword to beat projectiles out; that or it is a whole lot harder too. He might beat some out, but his movement speed (or lack thereof) only hinders it's effectiveness.

Marth on the other hand has very quick frame data which allows him to deal with projectiles a whole lot easier. Even if a projectile isn't out, Marth can use some of his quicker moves like Jab 1 to bait out projectiles because the almost sheer lack of endlag allows him to act almost instantly.

All of Marth's moves that are effective for stuffing projectiles are quick and quite safe to throw out, even if missed. Marth's good movement speed also allows him to close in on opponents after beating their projectiles much easier than most.

It's for this reason why Cloud can also deal with projectiles very well; he's quick, with good moves (like his Nair) that can beat out most projectiles.

With that in mind, Mega Man and Pac-Man especially cannot simply keep Marth out forever; Marth's Jab, Fair and Ftilt are more than enough to stuff all projectiles these characters can throw his way.

And what you seem to forget is, while Marth has the tools to get in on his projectile throwing opponents, what do most of them have to shake him off? Pac-Man's get off me tools are almost nonexistent. Mega Man has his pellets, but then you realise that the endlag after the three pellets have come out if enough for Marth to get an Ftilt, Jab or even Dancing Blade in; Mega Man is going to get punished for overuse of pellets. Pac-Man might have tools to attempt to keep Marth away, but seeing as Marth has ways to deal with this, when he gets in, what's he going to do to get Marth away?

I think it's high time you and me played online again; I am confident that I can break down to you in a match scenario why Marth does not struggle, or as you put it, "clearly loses to projectiles".

Until you can back up your posts as thoroughly as I did, you stand corrected; Marth does instantly not lose to projectiles.

---

Back to some regular stuff...

I am thinking I'll give it until Monday and then we will see how the list looks finished!

Looking back at the list as a whole, I would have liked more voters to be in here on a regular basis; luckily there are a lot of you who have been in here since the beginning and I want to thank each and every one of you for continuing to support this list.

I've got some ideas to get more voters in by the next time we start voting again, so that's something to look forward to.

 

[TDK]

-2 or even -3 with , as well as going -2 aganist and -1 aganist all of , maybe (That one might be even). And that's just for the characters that I know sure. Other characters such as could possibly beat him too,

Okay, I'm really sorry, but if you honestly think his matchup spread looks like that, you're either an idiot or have just never played the character(s).

Let's start with :4duckhunk: . Yes, they have projectiles and Marth doesn't, but let me introduce you to something:

sword
sôrd
noun

1. a weapon with a long metal blade and a hilt with a hand guard, used for thrusting or striking.

Marth and Lucina have swords. Do you know what swords do? Beat out projectiles. If you're going to use terrible logic such as that, I'm going to say stuff like this.

"Oh, Link has projectiles and Cloud doesn't have good projectiles! instant +4 for Link!"

Do you realize how stupid that sounds? Do you realize how stupid your logic is? Do you realize how stupid you sound, ignoring both results and established theory in wave of your own, heavily flawed, biased, theory that lacks any sort of intelligence behind it?

If you've actually done your "research", stop watching videos from two years ago. Marth is a completely different character. And next time, try and make your posts sound intelligent.

 

[FamilyTeam]

And this is why I do not like people that don't play a character trying to opinate so loudly about them. It's part of why I've been visibly angry at some of the opinions I've been seeing floating around about Marth.
If you don't play a character, please stop trying to pretend that you know him as well as somebody you main, because you don't.
You do'nt end up proving a damn thing and it makes you look "not very bright".

 

[Nah]

I will just say that while I agree with the idea that Marcina does not auto-lose to projectiles or zoning and that Winter is kinda wrong, y'all can say it without the viciousness. Like I get that y'all are tired of it since he's been doing it since the Paleozoic Era, but still.

But anyway, for a change in subject:



He's at the top of high tier on the list here, and somewhere near the bottom of top tier on the 3rd official BR tier list. It's always seemed to me though that his placement on tier lists/how good he is has been mildly controversial though. Usually the two schools of thought on him are split somewhere between "his neutral is kind of meh and so that limits how high one can put him on a list" and "he has a bonkers advantage state so we should place/think highly of him". With the latter seeming to be the slightly more popular opinion given Locus's recent showings+the train of thought that advantage stage>>>>>>>>>>>>>everything else after Civil War.

Figured that maybe a person or two would've placed and upvote/downvote for him. Or maybe people were going to, but there was another character they really wanted to vote on (which is likely).

gogogo

 

[Bowserboy3]

I will just say that while I agree with the idea that Marcina does not auto-lose to projectiles or zoning and that Winter is kinda wrong, y'all can say it without the viciousness. Like I get that y'all are tired of it since he's been doing it since the Paleozoic Era, but still.

But anyway, for a change in subject:



He's at the top of high tier on the list here, and somewhere near the bottom of top tier on the 3rd official BR tier list. It's always seemed to me though that his placement on tier lists/how good he is has been mildly controversial though. Usually the two schools of thought on him are split somewhere between "his neutral is kind of meh and so that limits how high one can put him on a list" and "he has a bonkers advantage state so we should place/think highly of him". With the latter seeming to be the slightly more popular opinion given Locus's recent showings+the train of thought that advantage stage>>>>>>>>>>>>>everything else after Civil War.

Figured that maybe a person or two would've placed and upvote/downvote for him. Or maybe people were going to, but there was another character they really wanted to vote on (which is likely).

gogogo

Ryu's an interesting one.

I personally believe he deserves his top tier placement on the official list. He's got some solid top level results to his name now, and whether people like to admit it or not, his general results totals have always been high.

Add on to the fact that he's just got more general dumb sh*t than the rest of the high tiers (only really Lucario is a contender here in this situation) and you've got a character that IMO at leas deserves his spot in top tier.

Though I am happy with him being the best high tier character either way. He doesn't really outright beat anybody in top tier aside from Fox (then again, you can argue the same for Fox only really beating Sonic), but most other things about the character are pretty positive.

 

[Frihetsanka]

While I would like to see Shulk move up, it doesn't look super likely at this point, so that leaves me with three options: Upvote Samus, upvote Link, or upvote Marth (to reduce the risk of him falling to high tier). Since Samus is at 5 votes, Link at 4, and Marth at -3 currently, it makes most sense to upvote link.

So, my vote: +1

 

[Bowserboy3]

FINAL UPDATE...

 

[Bowserboy3]

FINAL UPDATE COMPLETE!

After tallying up the votes, the only characters that appeared commonly were Samus and Link for upvotes, and Marth for downvotes. I was going to move all three of these characters, but I stuck to my initial word of "around 5-ish votes to move", hence why Samus and Link were the only two to move (Samus had 5 votes, and Link scraped by on 4 votes).

Overall, I am happy with how this list turned out. There were some heated discussions at times, but that's only because people are passionate about specific characters, and we all learned a lot about them along the way, so it's all been beneficial.

Voting will start again after a small break, of around 2 months or so (or if anything notable happens, like Smash Switch being announced etc).

Thank you to all who voted, and I hope you'll continue to vote in the next list!

With that, here is the final version 4 list:


Community Voted Tier List - Version 4 (23 voting periods, 7 months).

Top Tier: ,,,,,,,,,,
High Tier: ,,/,,,,
Mid Tier (+): ,,,,,,,,,
Mid Tier:,,,,,,
Mid Tier (-):,,,,,,,
Low Tier:,,,/,,,
Bottom Tier:,,,,,


Until we start up again, feel free to use the thread to talk about the list, character placements, placements in reference to the official 4BR tier list etc.

Until next time...

 

[Bigbomb2]

Hmmm interesting. In my mind I just end up lumping the entirety of mid tier into a big clump. Lots of solid characters in this game. Not a bad list

 

[Wintermelon43]

Personal thoughts on each character: (I'm gonna update this when I feel like, for now I only have top tier rated.

:Good candidate for first place. However, I think Bayonetta is more likely to be #1. This is because Diddy has a hard time with zoners, which we see more and more as the meta advances. This makes me think Diddy most likely isn't the true #1 in the game. However, he is still a good candidate.

:imo, Bayonetta is most likely #1 in the game atm. This is because I think Bayonetta has a more solid matchup spread and has even more very great strengths, such as her insane combos. Bayonetta loses to Diddy Kong, but that is most likely it (Unless I'm forgetting something) and destroys many characters. Additionally, it sounds like there is more things being discovered about her as the meta progresses.

:For a while, I'd been thinking that Sheik was the #2 or even #1 character in the game. That was due to a good neutral, good combos, great edgeguarding and recovery, good projectile, good aierals, etc as well as good results from Void and Mr. R and a good matchup spread. However, I'm not so sure anymore. By this point, you'd think that Sheik would have won a major tournament by this point, considering Void and Mr. R both play this character. But she hasn't. And recently, her killing issue has seemed to become even worse of a problem. So she defitenly isn't #1 anymore, and might not be #2. She only seems to be falling now.

:Correct spot for sure, nothing else to say.

:Same thing as Cloud, correct spot, nothing else to say (Well, Rosalina could very easily be higher than Sonic if she continues with this success)

Why is Mario #6????? Mario defitenly seems like he has been falling down lately and I think he is the worst top tier. Mario was grtting good results for a while last year with Ally winning GOML and EVO and Anti winning CEO. However, Mario hasn't been doing as good recently. Anti had been doing much worse than usual lately, and Ally isn't doing as good either. Additionally, Mario's matchup spread is poor for a top tier. He does very badly aganist Sonic, and also loses to Rosalina, Mewtwo, Marth, Lucina, Corrin, Samus, etc. And when he does win, it is rarely a significent advantage. Mario seems like he's at the end of top tier rather than the middle.

:Rosalina is better than Mario. Period. As for everything else, Rosalina last year was starting to look like she was at the end of top tier due to her bad matchups aganist Meta Knight and Cloud. However, more recently, Rosalina has been doing very great. Dabuz and Kirihara have each won a major with her, and Rosalina has been getting very solid results. Falln and UtopionRay have been doing good recently too. Rosalina's Cloud matchup has been looking better too. And this might not just be a trend too; Rosalina has been doing better ever since her players have changed playstyles to a more aggresive one. Rosalina might be top 5 now, and if she isn't, she's very close to it.

:Correct Spot.

:Correct Spot.

:Correct spot for the most part. Mewtwo might be better than Fox.

:You guys know what I think of Marth. The short version is that I think Marth has a terrible matchup spread and does extremely terrible aganist zoners, and as such, can't be higher than upper mid tier.

:This isn't THAT bad of a spot, but I don't think Ryu should be the highest in high tier. I would put him more in the middle due to his bad matchup chart (He beats Fox and Falcon but based on what I've heard, he doesn't beat anyone else notable). I don't think Ryu is better than some characters such as Meta Knight and Mega Man.

: Pretty much right.

: Pretty much right.

: Pretty much right.

retty Much right.

:I think Mega Man should be a little higher than this. Mega Man has been falling a little bit, but he still is good in theory and has a good matchup chart. He beats Diddy Kong, Cloud, Sonic, Rosalina, Zero Suit Samus, Marth, Lucina, Corrin, Meta Knight, Ryu, Luigi, Villager, and so on. He also only loses to Mario, Sheik, Fox, Pikachu, Bayonetta, and most likely Mewtwo.

: Pretty much right.

: Still too high but it's not as bad as Marth's placement is. I'll never understand why people put Marth and Lucina a tier apart.

 

[TDK]

(Marth) does extremely terrible aganist zoners,

I don't know why I waste so much time on you, but I looked through the best players of the zoning character's matchup charts and found some... interesting things. Things you might want to see before you spread this lie any more.

vs 55-45 Marth favour, according to Kameme
vs 50-50, according to T, generally accepted to be even or Marth favour
vs 55-45 Marth favour, according to Sigma (To my knowledge, Hyuga hasn't made a matchup chart, so I went to the second best)
vs 50-50, according to Shuton
vs 55-45 Duck Hunt favour, according to Yusan (45:55 according to Dandy Penguin's more recent one)
vs 60-40 Marth favour, according to Sinji (Tea doesn't seem to have made one)

As you can see, your "matchups" for marth are grossly innacurrate, where the actual mains of these characters think the matchups are even to marth favour.

Good day, make sure to do your research before you post anything else on Marth's matchups. Facts exist if you bothered looking for them before spreading these absurd ratios.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

He goes -2 or even -3 with , as well as going -2 aganist and -1 aganist all of , maybe (That one might be even). And that's just for the characters that I know sure. Other characters such as could possibly beat him too, I just don't know as much about the matchup. Marth and Lucina do extremely poorly aganist zoning, and does bad aganist heavyweights too. He does very poorly aganist the top and high tiers in total too. Marth's role in the metagame is pretty much just being a counterpick to Mario and maybe Cloud and Lucario. The only reason why he gets such good results are because of the player's skill.

Let's start from the top.

- Just, how. How on earth does Marth lose this MU potentially 35-75. That MU Ratio is either worse or even with Ness vs Rosa(I think it's worse). I am typing this out of order, and it is mentioned in the other post, but this game is not played from a stage apart. If it was, Mega Man/PAC would be top tier. Characters like Marth and others are able to allows zoners to play in a feasible area with approach options etc. Using matches, one of the only ones I can think of is Mr.E vs Kameme at Civil War. While Mr.E won with Lucina, does that mean Lucina is even while Marth loses so badly? No. Top players including Kameme and Marth mains have this MU as even or winning for Marth.

- You STILL think this? Marths aerials(unless my information is mistake) and various tilts are able to deal with PacMans barrage of projectiles notably his Neutral Special ones. How on Earth does pacman beat Marth 60-40. An MU is not played in one position. The only matchup that is sorta defined because of Pacs zoning is PAC vs Mac. Marth is not Mac. Marth has tools to combat Marths projectiles. What does PAC do once Marth gets in? Please, inform me of that. How can a 60-40 MU in where the one with the advtange only kinda wins in one area(far distance, campings, zoning) but lose in every other area?

Personal thoughts on each character: (I'm gonna update this when I feel like, for now I only have top tier rated.

:Good candidate for first place. However, I think Bayonetta is more likely to be #1. This is because Diddy has a hard time with zoners, which we see more and more as the meta advances. This makes me think Diddy most likely isn't the true #1 in the game. However, he is still a good candidate.

:imo, Bayonetta is most likely #1 in the game atm. This is because I think Bayonetta has a more solid matchup spread and has even more very great strengths, such as her insane combos. Bayonetta loses to Diddy Kong, but that is most likely it (Unless I'm forgetting something) and destroys many characters. Additionally, it sounds like there is more things being discovered about her as the meta progresses.

:For a while, I'd been thinking that Sheik was the #2 or even #1 character in the game. That was due to a good neutral, good combos, great edgeguarding and recovery, good projectile, good aierals, etc as well as good results from Void and Mr. R and a good matchup spread. However, I'm not so sure anymore. By this point, you'd think that Sheik would have won a major tournament by this point, considering Void and Mr. R both play this character. But she hasn't. And recently, her killing issue has seemed to become even worse of a problem. So she defitenly isn't #1 anymore, and might not be #2. She only seems to be falling now.

:Correct spot for sure, nothing else to say.

:Same thing as Cloud, correct spot, nothing else to say (Well, Rosalina could very easily be higher than Sonic if she continues with this success)

Why is Mario #6????? Mario defitenly seems like he has been falling down lately and I think he is the worst top tier. Mario was grtting good results for a while last year with Ally winning GOML and EVO and Anti winning CEO. However, Mario hasn't been doing as good recently. Anti had been doing much worse than usual lately, and Ally isn't doing as good either. Additionally, Mario's matchup spread is poor for a top tier. He does very badly aganist Sonic, and also loses to Rosalina, Mewtwo, Marth, Lucina, Corrin, Samus, etc. And when he does win, it is rarely a significent advantage. Mario seems like he's at the end of top tier rather than the middle.

:Rosalina is better than Mario. Period. As for everything else, Rosalina last year was starting to look like she was at the end of top tier due to her bad matchups aganist Meta Knight and Cloud. However, more recently, Rosalina has been doing very great. Dabuz and Kirihara have each won a major with her, and Rosalina has been getting very solid results. Falln and UtopionRay have been doing good recently too. Rosalina's Cloud matchup has been looking better too. And this might not just be a trend too; Rosalina has been doing better ever since her players have changed playstyles to a more aggresive one. Rosalina might be top 5 now, and if she isn't, she's very close to it.

:Correct Spot.

:Correct Spot.

:Correct spot for the most part. Mewtwo might be better than Fox.

:You guys know what I think of Marth. The short version is that I think Marth has a terrible matchup spread and does extremely terrible aganist zoners, and as such, can't be higher than upper mid tier.

Honestly, I am tired of his bs you present about Marth loser to projectiles. While I don't extensively play Marth or a projectile character, I actually do something called research. Marth, in my reasearch and discussion with various Marth mains, has multiple options to deal with projectile characters. Even if that were the case, how would characters like Cloud, how while not doing a ton of research on for this, have a large advantage vs Pacman. It's because they force zoners to play in a range they want. An entirely game is not played with the characters half a stage apart. If that were the case, this game would be entirely different.


You also said he can't be anything above upper mid? Let's take a look at high tier

:Locus has been the main driving force for this character and has had amazing placings and wins over top players. He also has many other players such as Darkshad keeping up. However, when you compare Ryus game to Marth vs various MUs, Marth jsut does better in the overall scheme. As Emblem Lord has said many times, Ryu struggles in various areas(don't remember all at the top of my head, but mobility, range(?), and various mus such as the being a roadblock. Not gonna really go indepth on Locus's MU chart because he believe Ryu is top 3, and it would not fit this scenario as we know he is not top 3.
- He has been falling off a lot. His best placer, being AC at this point, has had great success, but this success with not as great as marths. His highest placing where he outplaced Marth was at MWM Saga where he placed 7th.

-I agree Pikachu can be higher than Marth

-Lone reps being Ranai, Aarvark, and SS(does he compete anymore?) Best placing above Marth was I believe Civil War, but he has had more success than Marth. However, I am not too knowledgeable on Villager, but Ik Aarvark had quite a few negative mus for Villager.

-Low top level rep because his best player has been on hiatus so not much I can say.
I am not going to go on as I feel this is more than enough. Do Research.


I am gonna post my personal tier list soon

 

[Wintermelon43]

My "research" honestly makes me just agree more with my personal opinions, including Marth. What "research" exactly should I be doing then to see why Marth is supposdly top tier and doesn't lose to zoning?

 

[ShadowGuy1]

My "research" honestly makes me just agree more with my personal opinions, including Marth. What "research" exactly should I be doing then to see why Marth is supposdly top tier and doesn't lose to zoning?

Never said Marth was top tier. Even said in my post pika was better. Name me what your "research" has shown in how Marth loses to zoning.

 

[Linkip]

I'm not sure about Link's placement, just because T's a really good player who recently had an amazing tournament doesn't mean Link should be in high mid tier.

 

[lbrasz44]

I did this the last time the community tier list finished so I may as well continue this.
Here are the jumps and falls that characters have taken between their numerical placing in the last tier list to this one (and I still don't know how to spoiler kek)

2 (+8) 29 (+12)
48 (+3) 22 (-3)
47 (+5) (-10) 4(+1)
19 (-1) 51 (+3)
24 (-4) 26 (-6)
1 (Still the best) 30 (-1)
46 (-2) 38 (+9)
50 (-2) 9 (-1)
53 (+1) 17 (-1)
35 (-11) 54 (+3)
44 (-5) 41 (+9)
28 (+14) 21 (+1)
25 (+1) 18 (+17)
27 (-2) 6 (same)
11 (+16) 16 (+12)
13 (same) 10 (+1)
39 (+6) 23 (-9)
32 (+2) 40 (-8)
42 (+7) 20 (+11)
14 (+1) (-2) 33 (-12)
31 (+5) 7 (-4)
45 (+8) 12 (-3)
43 (-5) 3 (-1)
37 (+9) 5 (+2)
15 (+2) 36 (-3)
34 (-11) 52 (+4)
8 (-4) 56 (-26. This is due to how miis were voted on their 111 guest build as opposed to last time)
49 (-9) 55 (-12)


Biggest winners:
Biggest losers (aside from miis):

 

[Wintermelon43]

Never said Marth was top tier. Even said in my post pika was better. Name me what your "research" has shown in how Marth loses to zoning.

I've seen muitiple matches of Marth vs zoning characters (With projectiles). Marth seems to do very badly.

And this is seen in top level play too. For example, MKLeo lost to Kameme.

 

[Tizio Random]

I've seen muitiple matches of Marth vs zoning characters (With projectiles). Marth seems to do very badly.

And this is seen in top level play too. For example, MKLeo lost to Kameme.

Tbf MKLeo loses ti characters is not familiari with. Ryu seems ti be his kryptonite for example.

I also don't see where Marth does badly against zoners. He can have some problems getting in, not even that much cause his sword is a giant disjointed hitbox that covers in front of him and his mobility is not bad, but he definitely has the reward for putting his opponent in range.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I've seen muitiple matches of Marth vs zoning characters (With projectiles). Marth seems to do very badly.

And this is seen in top level play too. For example, MKLeo lost to Kameme.

And yet Mr.E beat Kameme (granted with Lucina but an MU ratio shouldn't be that different) Hasn't Sinji faced Mr.E many of times? What's the result of there? I searched and they face quite often at XenoSaga and I looked at the most recent PAC vs Marth set (the most recent is Mewtwo vs Lucina)
Marth was legit all up in Pacmans space and it seemed very hard for Sinji to break out of it. Pasts sets are there and I watched them, but you must remember that both these players have leveled up in the transition and you should use sets from this season. These two also have experience in the MU, something MKLeo might not of had vs Kameme which would explain how he lost and Mr.E won.