Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

[MERPIS]

You all are insane

 

[FamilyTeam]

You all are insane

It'd be nice if you elaborated instead of just making a bold claim.

 

[MERPIS]

It'd be nice if you elaborated instead of just making a bold claim.

First of all, a lot of you are saying that sonic moves down, why would you move a character that is on the rise downwards? Also this list as a whole is just wack, Sheik above Cloud? Diddy above Bayonetta? ZSS anywhere near the top 10? What's with that?

Now I'm sure opinions have changed around since then, but if they are then why hasn't the tier list been changed accordingly? The last time it's been updated was April the 20th, what a good day to meme.

 

[Bowserboy3]

First of all, a lot of you are saying that sonic moves down, why would you move a character that is on the rise downwards? Also this list as a whole is just wack, Sheik above Cloud? Diddy above Bayonetta? ZSS anywhere near the top 10? What's with that?

Now I'm sure opinions have changed around since then, but if they are then why hasn't the tier list been changed accordingly? The last time it's been updated was April the 20th, what a good day to meme.

Firstly, one person posted his opinion; don't put everyone into this by calling everyone "insane".

Secondly, it's an opinion. His opinion is as subjective as your own.

Finally, the list hasn't been updated because we finalised the list months back.

Just try and keep things calm and normal, and actually add to discussion. I like discussion, but not when you're just coming to trigger people, whether that's the intention or not. I appreciate and value the opinions of every single voter here, but I don't want to have to make exceptions, okay?



As an aside, Sonic really hasn't been super active at top level as of late. KEN's performance over the weekend was enough to keep Sonic in people's minds, as he always should be (shock, he's a good character), but he isn't Diddy, Cloud, Bayo or Sheik, or even Fox and ZSS, all who appear pretty much every time at top 8, bar an occasional upset.

As such, does he really deserve to be 5th? I personally believe absolutely not. The characters I have mentioned, plus Rosalina, are all characters I would personally rank above him for various reasons, but namely the fact that they are all way more common than him. Attendance really does help prove how good a character is.

What Sonic does have though, despite not being as common, is still the ability to perform well (again, KEN only backed this up). He'll never be a bad character, and depending on how tier lists are separated, hell likely always be top or high tier. Just because he may not be top 5, it doesn't mean he's bad. Nobody is implying this.

---

Anywho, loosely ordered, but the best/current most notable characters in the game IMO are the following;








The first 3 are pretty much solidly the best 3 in the game. Diddy and Bayonetta are arguably still fighting for 1st place, and Cloud is solidly the 3rd best.

The next 4 can be placed in pretty much any order IMO, but right now I'm of the belief that Fox is the 4th best. Again, these 4 can be placed in pretty much any order; they're all pretty much as dumb as eachother. I feel like Fox has the most untapped potential of this bunch, or at least, realistic potential (perfect Sheik would be the best in the game). One of the most slept upon good characters, along with ZSS. Plus, one of my closest friends plays him so I get to see a lot of the stuff he does so I'm biased lol.

Sonic and Mario are the kind of characters that people seem to have been figuring out lately, but can absolutely still show up. Also have some of the highest general playerbases at lower to mid levels, due to their popularity which helps them gain the results.

The next 4 are incredible characters with strengths that heavily outbalance their weaknesses, and have MU spreads that prove they are good (aside from Lucina because they're all outdated when people just thought she was "worse Marth" kek). They just appear less commonly than Mario and Sonic in general, aside from maybe Marth and Ryu; the former part of Leo's posse, and Ryu when Locus shows up.

Meta Knight, Corrin and Luigi are the characters that can show up, and will f*** you up if you aren't ready. All have done so in the past couple of months as well.

And finally, Bowser and DK are two of the most notable counterpick characters at this time.

That's where I'm at with the list at this current point.

 

[MERPIS]

Anywho, loosely ordered, but the best/current most notable characters in the game IMO are the following;

oh man this is so subjective I don't think I can even call it an opinion, it's so subjective that it's art.

 

[FamilyTeam]

First of all, a lot of you are saying that sonic moves down, why would you move a character that is on the rise downwards? Also this list as a whole is just wack, Sheik above Cloud? Diddy above Bayonetta? ZSS anywhere near the top 10? What's with that?

Now I'm sure opinions have changed around since then, but if they are then why hasn't the tier list been changed accordingly? The last time it's been updated was April the 20th, what a good day to meme.

Bowserboy qt already explained some of it, but Sonic (and Mario), being on a bit of a rise or not, are somewhat falling in favour of other characters. Fox has been doing particularly well and he has a lot of room to improve. KEN getting a good result is really great, but trying to justify Sonic's position with that alone is hard.

What's wrong with ZSS Top 10, seriously? She makes infinitely more sense there than basically anyone else. She has no place at all behind Marth, which in my honest opinion, to this day is riding on the shadow of ZeRo Saga/Genesis 4 MKLeo - two tournaments that happened almost a year ago and nothing similar has happened since (and what's funny is that even in Genesis 4 Leo went mostly Cloud) - and Leo occasionally pocketing him. I might not understand ZSS, but I do understand Marth and Lucina, and I do believe strongly they are not ahead of her.

With the way you word your posts, I have to wonder if you're not actually trolling? Like, we could have nice discussion here, but you opt for sarcasm and throwing shade, which is not very mature or productive.

 

[Bowserboy3]

this is so subjective I don't think I can even call it an opinion

Subjective - adjective
Based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.
‘his views are highly subjective’



And those replies are exactly the type we don't want here.

Either kindly add to discussion, or get out.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Anywho, loosely ordered, but the best/current most notable characters in the game IMO are the following;








The first 3 are pretty much solidly the best 3 in the game. Diddy and Bayonetta are arguably still fighting for 1st place, and Cloud is solidly the 3rd best.

The next 4 can be placed in pretty much any order IMO, but right now I'm of the belief that Fox is the 4th best. Again, these 4 can be placed in pretty much any order; they're all pretty much as dumb as eachother. I feel like Fox has the most untapped potential of this bunch, or at least, realistic potential (perfect Sheik would be the best in the game). One of the most slept upon good characters, along with ZSS. Plus, one of my closest friends plays him so I get to see a lot of the stuff he does so I'm biased lol.

Sonic and Mario are the kind of characters that people seem to have been figuring out lately, but can absolutely still show up. Also have some of the highest general playerbases at lower to mid levels, due to their popularity which helps them gain the results.

The next 4 are incredible characters with strengths that heavily outbalance their weaknesses, and have MU spreads that prove they are good (aside from Lucina because they're all outdated when people just thought she was "worse Marth" kek). They just appear less commonly than Mario and Sonic in general, aside from maybe Marth and Ryu; the former part of Leo's posse, and Ryu when Locus shows up.

Meta Knight, Corrin and Luigi are the characters that can show up, and will f*** you up if you aren't ready. All have done so in the past couple of months as well.

And finally, Bowser and DK are two of the most notable counterpick characters at this time.

That's where I'm at with the list at this current point.

Wow, the meta's really changed since I started following it, huh. Notably, not in high tier, and suddenly relevant.

Back on track, how many have seen this tier list? https://panda.gg/blogs/smash-bros/pgrv3-character-tier-list-1 What are the community's thoughts?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Wow, the meta's really changed since I started following it, huh. Notably, not in high tier, and suddenly relevant.

Bowserboy3 only listed the top 18 characters, and high tier might be larger than top 18, so those characters might still be high tier. At the very least Pikachu is.

I don't think Bowser or Donkey Kong are high tier because they're more like high-mid characters when you look at their MU charts. They're better as counter-pick characters, which makes them really relevant, but as solo characters? High-mid tier. High-mid tier characters can still do well though.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Back on track, how many have seen this tier list? https://panda.gg/blogs/smash-bros/pgrv3-character-tier-list-1 What are the community's thoughts?

I've seen it.
To me it served as a kind of "half update" to the main tier list? It's reasonably more accurate than the main one, now.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Yes, just a note, I simply just listed what I think are the most notable characters right now. There's a reason I didn't list tier names, because in that example it wasn't appropriate.
And again, it's just my opinion, so yours is likely to be different, but that's why we're here isn't it?


And yes, that PG Tier List is arguably better/more up to date than the current 4BR list, if just because it's more recent, but even then it's still a little outdated (looking at you ).

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Now that the PGR v4 season is over, should we start the new tier list soon? I bet many people now have lots of...strong opinions about...certain characters that would be fun to debate, and since only one big tournament (Umebura T.A.T.) will be happening for a month and a half, there shouldn't be any big waves of votes from recent results to screw up the early rounds of voting.

Also, while I'm here, should we start my defining how many tiers we'll have and what their names will be before we start voting? That would help clarify many things that made last round hectic near the end.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Voting right after big tounrmanets is always a bad idea because people are just gonna jump on the hype wagon and say whatever characters did well last tournament are Top 5.
How long until people say Marth is Top 5 again and MK and Luigi are Top 10. Oh wait, they already are.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

If a new tier list comes out . I honesty do not see the current top tiers changing all that much with the top 4 likely stating the same. Only major changes I see for top tier is Mario moving down and ZSS and Rosa moving a couple spots up. It will likey be the high to mid tiers experiecing the most drastic changes. Luigi and Lucina going up for example.

 

[MarioManTAW]

only one big tournament (Umebura T.A.T.) will be happening for a month and a half

Is S4BC not big?

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Is S4BC not big?

Sorry, I meant one big tournament that counts for rankings. I guess Smash 4 Boot Camp might change some opinions, but it won't count for any PGR points, so maybe there will be at least a bit more fun had at that tournament to entertain the viewers, if it's anything like the Melee Summits have been.

 

[Zerp]

The time's arrived, the 4th 4BR Tier List has come out.

Spoiler: Tier List

Official 4BR Wii U Tier List V4
S:
A:
B:
C:
D: ()
E:
F:
G:

The Miis were cut from the tier list, so there's no version with them in it.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Thanks for the post Zero Soul.
I think my biggest reservations are definitely Zelda Bottom 2 and Marcina separated once again.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Now that the 4BR list has been released we could start up this again, but it's also close to Christmas and New Year's and people tend to be fairly busy during mid and late December. Perhaps early January would be a good time to start?

As for number of tiers, I think we should just do what 4BR did: S, A, B, C, D, E, F, G. This would make it easier to directly compare the two tier lists.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Oh god I remmeber the memories of this thread. Especially the ones where wintermelon wanted Marth in mid tier /s

 

[Bowserboy3]

Okay, so the tier list is out.

I'm up for giving things a go again if people are ready for it - of which I can make out they are.

Frihetsanka makes a good point. Christmas and New Years is coming up so it will probably be best to start up again in January.

Come January when I've forgotten completely, if somebody wants to remind me again (lol), we'll start then.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Also keep in mind that , , , , and are considered to be practically in the same spot, despite being listed separately.

 

[Eekum_bokum]

A few quick thoughts (opinions) about the new tier list:

1. I'm glad Luigi made his well-deserved jump on the list (which I've been saying for a while now should have happened) but I still think he should be higher. Top 10 IMO.
2. Can somebody explain to me how Mewtwo is so highly rated? His representation is carried by one player who IMO underperforms a lot.
3. Sheik is too high. Definitely top 10 but in the current meta idk about number 4.
4. Fox should be higher. Top 5 IMO.
5. DDD is definitely low tier but bottom 4 is really rough. He's definitely not as bad as this tier list would suggest. I think Kirby should be in his spot, and DDD should be in the tier above last.
6. People are starting to realize now that Ness really isn't that good, but they should have put Lucas above him (who IMO is clearly better).

That's all I can think of for now. Otherwise I think this list is fairly accurate with the current meta.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Can somebody explain to me how Mewtwo is so highly rated? His representation is carried by one player who IMO underperforms a lot.

Which player? Abadango may have been carrying Mewtwo previously, but as of right now, I'd say WaDi's pretty high up there too (especially since Aba's playing less Mewtwo these days).

 

[Browny]

Okay, so the tier list is out.

I'm up for giving things a go again if people are ready for it - of which I can make out they are.

Frihetsanka makes a good point. Christmas and New Years is coming up so it will probably be best to start up again in January.

Come January when I've forgotten completely, if somebody wants to remind me again (lol), we'll start then.

Honestly the new tier list is so agreeable, I wouldn't be surprised if this list ended up very similar.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Honestly the new tier list is so agreeable, I wouldn't be surprised if this list ended up very similar.

Agreed. It's a rarity, but honestly there is very little I can pick fault with.

Will be interesting to see how this one ends up for sure.

 

[Frihetsanka]

What if we used a different method this time? Something like this (Alternative 1):

Start with the 4BR list. People get a bunch of upvotes and downvotes and use them to move characters up and down the tiers. Update weekly. After a few months when things have settled down we move on to the next phase, which is ordering the characters within tiers (and perhaps allowing for moving 1 character up or down per tier). After that we're done (perhaps have a wild card round).

Potential advantages:
1. We'd get the same number of tiers as the 4BR list, which makes it easier to compare the two tier lists.
2. It'd be a faster process.
3. It'd be different from the usual process.

Potential disadvantages:
1. Some characters would likely benefit from their initial high placement (such as Marth) while others would likely be harmed by it (such as Samus, perhaps).
2. It'd be a faster process.
3. It'd be different from the usual process.

What do people think? Good idea? Bad idea? Another alternative is this (Alternative 2):

We have set tiers from the beginning (S to G, like the 4BR tier list), but aside from that we proceed as normal.

And there's Alternative 3, which is "Do it like we usually do". Although this time I think we shouldn't bother with the "high tier", "high-mid", etc, or else we might end up with Corrin in high-mid again after the tier is done (or something like that). If we do use high tier/high-mid etc we should decide on the tier names early rather than late.

 

[Zerp]

Come January when I've forgotten completely, if somebody wants to remind me again (lol), we'll start then.

What if we used a different method this time? Something like this (Alternative 1):

Start with the 4BR list. People get a bunch of upvotes and downvotes and use them to move characters up and down the tiers. Update weekly. After a few months when things have settled down we move on to the next phase, which is ordering the characters within tiers (and perhaps allowing for moving 1 character up or down per tier). After that we're done (perhaps have a wild card round).

Potential advantages:
1. We'd get the same number of tiers as the 4BR list, which makes it easier to compare the two tier lists.
2. It'd be a faster process.
3. It'd be different from the usual process.

Potential disadvantages:
1. Some characters would likely benefit from their initial high placement (such as Marth) while others would likely be harmed by it (such as Samus, perhaps).
2. It'd be a faster process.
3. It'd be different from the usual process.

What do people think? Good idea? Bad idea? Another alternative is this (Alternative 2):

We have set tiers from the beginning (S to G, like the 4BR tier list), but aside from that we proceed as normal.

And there's Alternative 3, which is "Do it like we usually do". Although this time I think we shouldn't bother with the "high tier", "high-mid", etc, or else we might end up with Corrin in high-mid again after the tier is done (or something like that). If we do use high tier/high-mid etc we should decide on the tier names early rather than late.

I'd prefer alternative 3 (and I do agree we should agree on Tier names as early as they're made) because I'd like the community tier list to reflect purely the community's opinions and not be shaped on anything else, official list or not, although I'll admit that alternative 1 does sounds like it could be interesting despite it not being what I want, it's a good idea.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Bowserboy3 I see you're back to Smashboards now, welcome back! So, what's the plan? One final Community Tier list before we move on to Ultimate, or do we just leave it as it? I see several issues with the current tier list (like Corrin in Mid tier +, Duck Hunt in Mid tier -, Kirby not in bottom 10, Villager/Toon Link/Mega Man top 20, Diddy Kong #1, etc) so it could be interesting to see if people have changed their mind. I'm up for it, anyway. Are other people up for it as well?

 

[Nah]

Are other people up for it as well?

yeah sure, I'd be up for participating in this again

 

[Zerp]

Bowserboy3 I see you're back to Smashboards now, welcome back! So, what's the plan? One final Community Tier list before we move on to Ultimate, or do we just leave it as it? I see several issues with the current tier list (like Corrin in Mid tier +, Duck Hunt in Mid tier -, Kirby not in bottom 10, Villager/Toon Link/Mega Man top 20, Diddy Kong #1, etc) so it could be interesting to see if people have changed their mind. I'm up for it, anyway. Are other people up for it as well?

Absolutely up for it, it'd be fun to see how everyone's opinions have changed. Oh and I remember mentioning this in our PM but again, Bowserboy3 , if you still want to and need any help with this I will be more than glad to help you with everything.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Nowadays I honestly don't really care about opinions of smash 4 tier lists and matchups and stuff (not even with Marth). I still keep up with how everything is in the competitive scene and watch some tournaments, but I don't actually bother with having my own opinions anymore. Because of this, I'm not interested in doing this again....

However, I admit I am curious to see what the results would be with another one of these, and as I have a history with this tier list game and it's been a year and a half since the last one and multiple people have mentioned wanting to do this again... idk whether Bowserboy even goes on this site anymore, or if he wants to continue doing this, but if he's either inactive or doesn't feel like doing another round of this, I'd be willing to host it this time; I already planned on reviving this game for smash ultimate anyway some time after smash ultimate came out.

If Bowserboy still wants to do this, then that's fine, and he can host it; but if he doesn't feel like it, I'd be willing to do it for him.

(Also, if no one recongizes me, I'm Wintermelon43. The guy who kept saying Marth isn't high tier for so long. I stay pretty much opinionless on this stuff now, however, so I won't cause drama again over it).

 

[Frihetsanka]

I'm cool with someone else hosting it. Browny and Bowserboy3 should be first in line, but if they don't feel like doing it then someone else (like Wintermelon43) is fine with with me. I'm a bit worried that the number of active voters will be much lower this time, but should we start and only, say, 7 people vote each round, we could just abandon the project.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I'm cool with someone else hosting it. Browny and Bowserboy3 should be first in line, but if they don't feel like doing it then someone else (like Wintermelon43) is fine with with me. I'm a bit worried that the number of active voters will be much lower this time, but should we start and only, say, 7 people vote each round, we could just abandon the project.

Yeah, possibly. I'm hoping if I host this, that since it's been so long, there'll be more people doing this. If not, then I'll see if I can do this for smash ultimate in early 2019.

Of course if this can get moved to competitive discussion like it should've been in the first place, that would help. But that probably won't happen of no one else was able to after all this time.

 

[Zerp]

I think interest will be generated once this is active again, it's always quiet here until we start voting then suddenly it becomes popular and active, it's like a cycle, I don't think we have to worry too much about the amount of voters.

Nowadays I honestly don't really care about opinions of smash 4 tier lists and matchups and stuff (not even with Marth). I still keep up with how everything is in the competitive scene and watch some tournaments, but I don't actually bother with having my own opinions anymore. Because of this, I'm not interested in doing this again....

However, I admit I am curious to see what the results would be with another one of these, and as I have a history with this tier list game and it's been a year and a half since the last one and multiple people have mentioned wanting to do this again... idk whether Bowserboy even goes on this site anymore, or if he wants to continue doing this, but if he's either inactive or doesn't feel like doing another round of this, I'd be willing to host it this time; I already planned on reviving this game for smash ultimate anyway some time after smash ultimate came out.

If Bowserboy still wants to do this, then that's fine, and he can host it; but if he doesn't feel like it, I'd be willing to do it for him.

(Also, if no one recongizes me, I'm Wintermelon43. The guy who kept saying Marth isn't high tier for so long. I stay pretty much opinionless on this stuff now, however, so I won't cause drama again over it).

I sent a PM to Bowserboy awhile back asking if he wanted to continue hosting the thing and he was active at that point of time and never responded, so I'm taking that as a no, I think it's fair game for you to host a new one since there's no sign of interest, I'd just make sure to ask a admin/moderator and/or Browny (he was the original owner) first before opening a new thread and I think you'd probably be golden and good to go.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Okay, I'll ask both of them soon and if they both decline, I'll host it

 

[Tizio Random]

I'm down for one last tier list round before Smash 4 takes the way out, it will be one last ride to celebrate this messy metagame!

 

[Frihetsanka]

Should we name tiers this time? If we do, I think it would be better to name them early rather than late, or else we risk people thinking they're voting for one tier when actually voting for another. If we do name tiers, should we have a Bottom tier? Every character that is supposedly "Bottom" tier in Smash 4 seems to have some decent results, after all. Some examples: Zaki has been doing work with King Dedede, ven, Fairess, and Purple Guy have some results with Zelda, Adom, Gungnir, and Pon have some results with Ganondorf, and Captain L and LeeT have some results with JIgglypuff. The third 4BR Smash 4 tier list skipped Bottom tier (the fourth didn't name the tiers). I think it's reasonable to say that no character in Smash 4 is truly so awful that they belong in Bottom tier, so perhaps we should skip Bottom tier. Or we could just skip naming tiers, that would work too.

 

[Zerp]

It's true that they're nowhere near as bad (in the meta) as the Bottom Tier's in the other games, but I still think it should be called Bottom Tier because it's at the bottom, some people might conflate that with meaning they're as bad as Melee or Brawl's Bottom Tier characters but I feel like that's kind of their own fault for assuming every game is balanced as well as each other. Although, the name really is the least important part, it doesn't matter that much what we go with, I'd just prefer if we called it Bottom Tier.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think it depends a bit on whether you consider tiers to be relative or not. I think that tiers should have some criteria, and if a character reaches those criteria then that character belongs to a certain tier. Imagine if the worst character in the game goes even with every character but two, who that character slightly loses to. I would be okay with calling that character "Mid tier" instead of "Low tier" or "Bottom tier", even if it's the worst character in the game.

Take a game like Rivals of Aether, for instance. That game has 13 characters and is considered fairly balanced, and the community seems split on a tier list. Should the bottom 2 or 3 or so be considered "Bottom tier" or even "Low tier" if they're not considered to be much worse than most other characters?

Another issue I have with the term "Bottom tier" is that it's not wildely used. "Low tier" is commonly used and people talk about Low tier tournament (not Bottom tier tournaments), they make videos on "Why you should main a low tier" (not "Why you should main a bottom tier"), and many people call characters like Jigglypuff and King Dedede "Low tier".

TV Tropes has a page for Character Tiers, and here's what that page says about Low Tier and Bottom Tier:

• "Low Tier: You probably don't want to choose these. They could theoretically be useful, but choosing such a character is a suboptimal choice; take only if you need to fill space. Sometimes, these characters find a niche for their shock value, or because they work well against unprepared or surprised opponents. This sort of usage stops working once your opponents get wise, at which point you should return to a higher tier.
• Bottom Tier: Joke Characters, and those who are just bad. They may have an advantage over someone in top tier, but outside of that specific situation, be prepared to have extreme difficulty using a Bottom Tier character in high-level play."

The worst characters in Smash 4 seem to fit "Low Tier" better than "Bottom Tier". It's also worth noting that in the Reddit tier lists, the worst characters in the game are generally ranked C- instead of D-tier (even though D-tier is an option).

On another subject, I think we should skip rating Miis this time. It's pretty clear that most people tend to underestimate Miis a bit (at least with all sizes allowed and customs on), and 1111 Miis are pretty bad anyway and hard to rank since almost no one plays them.