Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

[Bowserboy3]

Just a little update.

I'm thinking in a month's time or so, I might start this list up for another round. It will be coming on a year since the last one first started, and I think that's a fair enough excuse to do another.

I'm personally more intrigued in seeing if there are any major differences, or whether characters more or less stay in similar spots. I want to see if the metagame has shifted much, or whether things are finally starting to settle.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Just a little update.

I'm thinking in a month's time or so, I might start this list up for another round. It will be coming on a year since the last one first started, and I think that's a fair enough excuse to do another.

I'm personally more intrigued in seeing if there are any major differences, or whether characters more or less stay in similar spots. I want to see if the metagame has shifted much, or whether things are finally starting to settle.

Sounds fair. I guess we could talk about some of the predicted changes in the meantime.

should be #1. should probably be a bit higher as well. is potentially top tier. should be closer to Marth, potentially right next to him. should be higher. should be higher. should be much higher. should be higher, most seem to agree that he's better than Donkey Kong now. should be much higher, probably high tier. and should be higher as well. is not Low tier. is not Low tier either.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Sounds fair. I guess we could talk about some of the predicted changes in the meantime.

should be #1. should probably be a bit higher as well. is potentially top tier. should be closer to Marth, potentially right next to him. should be higher. should be higher. should be much higher. should be higher, most seem to agree that he's better than Donkey Kong now. should be much higher, probably high tier. and should be higher as well. is not Low tier. is not Low tier either.

In my opinion, still isn't a complete shoe in for being number 1. She's one of the picks for being number one, but there is plenty to argue against her, such as results, and more commonly as of late, matchups, some of which are now starting to look a little more suspect than previously thought.

 

[Nah]

Bayo certainly has the potential to be the #1 in the game, but it's still a bit too early to state that she is indeed the definitive best in the game like pre-patch Sheik was. We'll see how things go in the coming months.

should be higher, most seem to agree that he's better than Donkey Kong now.

Who did you mean to say here?

pretty sure DK can't be better than himself

 

[Bowserboy3]

pretty sure DK can't be better than himself

When you expand dong, anything is possible.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Who did you mean to say here?

pretty sure DK can't be better than himself

I'm guessing he meant Bowser, since many people compare those two. But Bowserboy answered your question better.

 

[Wintermelon43]

When is this starting again?

 

[Bowserboy3]

When is this starting again?

Hmm...

I am thinking at least the start of August.

That is if people are up for it then?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Okay, just to try and revive some interest in this thread, let's talk about some general tier things.

Questions to you all:

• What is actually top tier to you now? - for example, I am now of the belief that there are 4-5 characters consistently doing better than the rest (Bayo, Diddy, Cloud, Sheik, potentially Fox or Rosalina), that ranking the likes of Mario, Mewtwo, Sonic etc as "top tier" seems a bit strange. Still amazingly better than the rest of the cast, but are they really top tier when you have the likes of Bayo and Cloud about?

Finally

• Of the Upper/Mid/Lower tiers, who do you think deserves to rise or fall the most? The top and high tiers at this point are pretty much established, but there is always room for newer characters to rise up. Personally, I think Peach well deserves a place in high tier at this point; very strong options in most cases, a combo game with bonkers damage output, and Samsora has proven she can be used at top level consistently. I also think Ike (sadly, because I still believe he is very solid and well rounded) deserves to drop, likely with characters like Pit(s) and Greninja, who have all been struggling to stand out as of late.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I was actually considering posting something similar (along the lines of "What does each tier mean" and "How many tiers should we have?"). I would like it if we determined tier names before actually voting this time, so that we don't end up in a situation like the one last time, where high tier characters (imo) ended up in mid+ tier and mid- characters ended up in low tier.

I think Kuroganehammer's tier list is pretty good. I'd personally prefer it if we skipped Bottom tier and just called it Low tier, and called the tier above Low tier+ or Upper Low tier or something. Even the worst characters in Smash 4 aren't that bad, we've seen King Dedede's, Zelda's, Ganondorf's, and Jigglypuff's get some pretty good results (CrazieCuban almost beat saj's Bayonetta with mostly Jigglypuff).

I think top tier could be split into two, perhaps High-Top tier/Low-Top tier, or Upper Top tier/Lower top tier, or Top tier+/Top tier-, or something. Bayonetta, Cloud, Diddy Kong, and Sheik would be in the upper part, while the rest would be lower.

Some characters that should move up: at 19 when Marth is at 11 is not reasonable. could probably move up a few spots too, 23 is too low for him. Oh, and at 28 is a joke. at 33 is also a joke. should probably be higher than 39, and higher than 44. is better than bottom 12 (bottom 9 without Miis), but he's lacking in results.

Some characters that should move down: at 6 is a bit too high. I think some other characters deserve that spot more. is a bit too high as well, I believe. I'd also move down a bit, as well as .

 

[MarioManTAW]

Or we could ignore the whole tier name problem altogether and just use lettered tiers.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Or we could ignore the whole tier name problem altogether and just use lettered tiers.

It's an option, though letters aren't clear either. Or we could just copy the 4BR system, that'd make it easier to compare the two tier lists too (inb4 they release a new tier list with a new system).

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I think there are eight characters who are just a notch higher than everyone else: , and they would be the true "Top Tier", with characters like (/) falling due to recent lack of results.

As for the other tiers:
, , and should fall at least 1 tier
, , , , , , , and should rise at least 1 tier


For the names of the tiers, I would actually prefer lettered tiers to numbers. Some people including me like to think that there is no true "bottom tier" in a game like this, though I can see why people would call the lowest tier "bottom tier". Lettered tiers instead of named tiers would help solve this problem, and then we can use + and - to denote higher or lower variations of that tier. And with the sheer number of characters doing well, I think there should be lots of variants of A Tier and B Tier. I think the order should be:

S
A+
A (or A-)
A- (or B+)
B+ (or B)
B-
C

 

[Nah]

Could split top tier into 2 divisions yeah. The current 4BR tier list has it like that too. While Cloud/Bayo/Diddy/Sheik are basically the clear 4 best right now, the others are still top tier material too, just to a slightly lesser degree--they're still ****ing monsters and calling them anything other than top tier is kind of wrong imo. They're still better and do better than anything in high tier really.

I don't see the need to go from words to letters for the tiers, or even to re-name bottom tier. But I'm probably gonna get out-voted on both accounts so whatever

As for characters moving up/down.....Lucina will move up. Her current placing on this list comes from the fact that she was upvoted there from Mid Tier+, back when she was still kind of thought by a fair few people to be significantly worse than Marth. General public perception of her has only gotten better since we did that vote, so she'll move up. How much, idk, but her going up is a certainty.

 

[Frihetsanka]

A simple solution: 4 main tiers (Top, High, Mid, Low), each split into two. So Top (+), Top (-), Mid (+), Mid (-), etc. No bottom tier; there is no character on the level of bottom tiers in Brawl or Melee, and few people say "I main a bottom tier". Furthermore, look at, say, Omni's videos and notice that he talks about low tiers, not bottom tiers. Low tier is a better term than bottom tier, at least for Smash 4, in my opinion.

So it might look something like this (rough tier list, not ordered within tiers):


Top Tier (+):
Top Tier (-):
High Tier (+):
High Tier (-):
Mid Tier (+):
Mid Tier (-):
Low Tier (+):
Low Tier (-):

Thoughts? It's not the only viable alternative, but it's a fairly good one, in my opinion. What's more important (in my opinion) is that we decide on tiers in advance this time, instead of throwing them together near the end with no real chance to fix them in case they end up being different from what we expected (Or else we might get Corrin, Captain Falcon, Luigi, and Peach in mid tier instead of high tier again. Also, three mid tiers but only one high tier?).

Or we could just copy the 4BR tier list format. That way it'd be easier to compare the two. Of course, if the 4th version ends up changing the format (it might) then that'd be somewhat of a bummer.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Hmm...

I am thinking at least the start of August.

That is if people are up for it then?

It's mid-september now.

 

[Bowserboy3]

It's mid-september now.

Indeed.

Though I thought to myself that, there wasn't much point starting the tier list just yet. It doesn't look like people have much of a problem with the actual tier list. Hence, why I kind of let this stay quiet for now (anyway, you can guarantee that if we start it, midway through a new official tier list will come out and throw a spanner in the works, smh).

However, if people are up for wanting to start up again, I am more than up for it. Who wants to start a new community tier list again?

 

[Frihetsanka]

However, if people are up for wanting to start up again, I am more than up for it. Who wants to start a new community tier list again?

First 4BR tier list: February 2016. Second tier list: August 2016. Third tier list: March 2017. I wonder if we'll get a 4BR tier list in September or October? It's fairly plausible. Then again, we might not see the next tier list until November or December, in which case we might as well start now.

The main advantage of waiting for the 4BR tier list is that then we can just copy the number of tiers and tier names they have and we'd thus save a great deal of time and we'd lessen confusion. The second 4BR tier list had 9 tiers, the latest had 7 tiers, how many tiers will the next one have? 7? 8? 9? I think it would be good if we could keep our tier list similar when it comes to tier names and number of tiers, since that would make it easier to draw comparisons between the two tier lists. If they use 8 tiers, we use 8 tiers. If they split top tier into two, we split top tier into two (and if they keep it as one tier, we do as well). If they don't use bottom tier, we don't either, but if they do, we do as well.

Then again, it's fairly likely that the 4BR tier list will drop before we've decided on the number of tiers, and in that case we could simply adapt to whatever they're using. So I'd be up for starting now if other people are up for it as well.

 

[Frihetsanka]

How inaccurate is the current community tier list? The following characters should move up or down a minimum 5 spots, in my opinion. I will note the current position and add what they minimally should move to:


: 15>20. Part of Villager's issues is that other characters have turned out to be stronger and have fewer 40-60 MUs, which is really bad for a high tier character. Villager is still a pretty good character and should probably end up around spot 20-22.
: 16>21. Toon Link is in a similar situation as Villager, with other characters being better with fewer 40-60 MUs.
: 17>22. Mega Man is still a good character, though perhaps not quite as good as people once thought.
: 20>15. Corrin is a character many people underrate. She has good theory and a really good MU chart, but she's not top tier, and Cloud is better. Still, now that Corrin players are starting to show up and get good results and MkLeo uses her as a secondary I think it's time to acknowledge that she might be top 15, or at the very least better than #20.
: 24>29. Ness is carried by good players, his MU chart is actually not that good and his theory is somewhat flawed. He's not a bad character but he's rated a bit too high on this tier list.
: 25>30. Pit is really, really overrated. He's solid, but unless his meta develops in some new way I don't see how he could be top 30. This applies to Dark Pit as well.
: 28>23. Why was Luigi placed in #28 again?
: 30>25. #30 is too low for Bowser.
: 31>26. Ding-dong.
: 33>28. Even 28 is way too low for Olimar.
: 36>41. It's not that Ike is bad, it's that other characters are better.
: 39>34. When played right Duck Hunt is actually pretty decent.
: 41>46. Pac-Man is more dysfunctional than most characters in the game. He benefits greatly from character unfamiliarity though.
: 44>39. Wow, people were really underrating Samus back then, eh?
: 45>50. Kirby is pretty bad in this game.
: 48>43. Charizard is not quite as bad as people seem to think.

And that's it. Other characters should move 1-4 spot (and some should not move at all), but all these characters should move 5 spots or more (in my opinion).

 

[NuzTheMonkey]

Could you describe in more detail why you think these characters should move. I don't think "Charizard is not quite as bad as people seem to think" is a substanial information. Besides, I'm a rookie and will find it interesting.

How inaccurate is the current community tier list? The following characters should move up or down a minimum 5 spots, in my opinion. I will note the current position and add what they minimally should move to:


: 15>20. Part of Villager's issues is that other characters have turned out to be stronger and have fewer 40-60 MUs, which is really bad for a high tier character. Villager is still a pretty good character and should probably end up around spot 20-22.
: 16>21. Toon Link is in a similar situation as Villager, with other characters being better with fewer 40-60 MUs.
: 17>22. Mega Man is still a good character, though perhaps not quite as good as people once thought.
: 20>15. Corrin is a character many people underrate. She has good theory and a really good MU chart, but she's not top tier, and Cloud is better. Still, now that Corrin players are starting to show up and get good results and MkLeo uses her as a secondary I think it's time to acknowledge that she might be top 15, or at the very least better than #20.
: 24>29. Ness is carried by good players, his MU chart is actually not that good and his theory is somewhat flawed. He's not a bad character but he's rated a bit too high on this tier list.
: 25>30. Pit is really, really overrated. He's solid, but unless his meta develops in some new way I don't see how he could be top 30. This applies to Dark Pit as well.
: 28>23. Why was Luigi placed in #28 again?
: 30>25. #30 is too low for Bowser.
: 31>26. Ding-dong.
: 33>28. Even 28 is way too low for Olimar.
: 36>41. It's not that Ike is bad, it's that other characters are better.
: 39>34. When played right Duck Hunt is actually pretty decent.
: 41>46. Pac-Man is more dysfunctional than most characters in the game. He benefits greatly from character unfamiliarity though.
: 44>39. Wow, people were really underrating Samus back then, eh?
: 45>50. Kirby is pretty bad in this game.
: 48>43. Charizard is not quite as bad as people seem to think.

And that's it. Other characters should move 1-4 spot (and some should not move at all), but all these characters should move 5 spots or more (in my opinion).

 

[Nah]

Could you describe in more detail why you think these characters should move.

That will come when discussion and voting of the individual tiers begins again.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Could you describe in more detail why you think these characters should move. I don't think "Charizard is not quite as bad as people seem to think" is a substanial information. Besides, I'm a rookie and will find it interesting.

It's not meant to be substantial information because I believe, at this point, most of these assessment are not very controversial. Corrin is probably the most controversial, and even then I find it hard to see her lower than 18 (and she's probably higher).

Check out Dabuz's recent tier list video for mid tiers and below. He agrees with all my assessment except Corrin (#17 instead of #15 or higher) and Charizard (#44 instead of #43 or higher).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdHfn8Ex-xY

 

[Bigbomb2]

I'm all for starting it up again too. It's always fun and gives me good stuff to peruse through during work.

 

[Ad3n]

What was everyone smoking when voting

 

[Zerp]

What was everyone smoking when voting

I'm pretty sure it was one of's fruit, dude probably spiked it with hallucinogens that made him seem more viable than he is./s

Really though, I didn't (and still don't) agree with a lot of the placements on the list, but most of the decisions made were reasonable ones to make half a year ago.

 

[Routa]

It is interesting to see how people's views on tier list has changed. For example my views on Olimar has changed quite a bit along with some other characters.

I think we could share our own views on the current list and see how they differ from each others. For example here is my view on current tier list:

Some characters may seem out off place like Pac-Man, but I have really hard time seeing him any good whit the toolkit and mobility specs he has.
Other character who may seem out of place is Ganondorf. I do agree he is bad character due to his mobility, but he has better results recently than any other character below him along with great moveset which is hindered by poor mobility.
Diddy is amazing don't get me wrong, but he does struggle to kill after certain %, he lacks "tr4sh factor" along with exploitable recovery.
I can explain some character placement more in depth later if people have questions about why I think which character deserves to be where in the tier list.
Also let's keep it civil, eh?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Good idea.

I can't post an image but here's my thought on the tier list right now:












==

Not placing Mii's; don't know enough about them in general, nor enough to draw from results wise.

I generally like to make more splits when I do tier lists. However, I will note that IMO, characters are all good, but start getting "more weaknesses/weaknesses more prevalent" at Kirby downwards.

Also can't decide who's worse out of Dedede, Zelda and Puff, as my opinion on that changes weekly, so for fairness, they're all as bad as eachother.

Diddy and Bayonetta might as well be equal too. Maybe it's because I use Bayonetta and can see her weaknesses, but I really don't think she's outright the best, but accept that others believe so. Interesting that there were no Bayo's in top 8 over the weekend too. Strange for the "best in the game", especially considering how many people used her. Being able to DI and avoid ALL potential followups from Witch Twist is a big deal. Limits her ability a huge deal, and I experienced this first hand at a tournament yesterday, so I may be more biased than normal.

Fox is also borked. In time I could honestly see him in top 4, even 3. I'm going to be controversial here, but I could see him above Sheik soon, and in time, if people develop and adapt around both Diddy and Bayonetta, I could see them drop below Cloud, and in turn, I could even see Fox above them. The only way is up for Fox, whereas I feel the only way is down for Diddy and Bayonetta (strange that, seeing as they're at the top, kek)

 

[Frihetsanka]

I can explain some character placement more in depth later if people have questions about why I think which character deserves to be where in the tier list.

Lucario () #43? Ganondorf () not bottom 10?

I can't post an image but here's my thought on the tier list right now:

Olimar () #34?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Lucario () #43? Ganondorf () not bottom 10?

Olimar () #34?

I really don't see how Olimar is as good as he used to be these days with the rise of all many other characters, so he's just dropped lower in my expectations.

Granted, I'd probably put him next to Greninja or something if I'm being nicer, which would be around #29.

A lot of my list is based on personal experience too. Here in the UK, we have no good Olimars, yet have multiple good Yoshi's, ROB's, one of the best Samus's, etc, hence why they're also higher than him.

This isn't to discredit Shuton's achievements though.

However, what MU's does Olimar actually win, or is a notable counterpick to? That's where I struggle to see him shine. This is an issue Greninja had up until recently when people realised he might be a solid pick vs Bayonetta.

I just feel he's very overrated. I accept others think he's good though, because to be fair to him, he's quite solid. Not bad by any stretch of the imagination.

It's also notable that Dabuz hardly ever counterpicks to Olimar anymore, and goes Rosalina for most things. This either says Olimar can't really cover MU's well, or just that Rosalina is good enough to deal with most/all MU's; I'm more inclined to believe the latter though.

 

[Zerp]

I'm willing to explain my reasoning on any character positions you want to hear about.

I made this a list a couple weeks ago for some friends but my opinion really hasn't changed much, the only things I'd really change now are R.O.B.'s and Ryu's, R.O.B.'s because that was a mistake, I mean't to put him a tier lower lol and for Ryu my opinion's changed and now I think he's at the bottom of the next Tier up, also have been thinking that Pac-Man should maybe go down a tier, but I'm not so sure about that one.

 

[Nah]

I mean ok if this is what we're doing rn, here's my tier list/the tier list no one ever wanted to see:

Spoiler

not ordered within tiers

Top:

not sure if bottom of top or top of high:

High:

Upper Mid:

Mid:

Lower Mid:

Low:

Bottom:

idk where these go:

not like everythin's 100% set in stone but it gets you the basic idea and I don't think that anyone would move more than up/down one level anyway

 

[Routa]

Lucario () #43? Ganondorf () not bottom 10?

Lucario has 2 things that make him pretty "eh" in my eyes. Thous being his lack of threat at lower % and his lack of quick grounded options. While he has good damage output he does struggle against grounded opponents due to his slow options. His quickest grounded options are Utilt and Jab which both are frame 6. Not only are his moves slow they also lack range which hinders his neutral even more. Lucario in general has hard time keeping foes at bay along with approaching himself. Also he does get platform camped rather well due to slow aerials along with slowish aerial mobility. In general his disadvantage state isn't that great. He is one of the easiest characters to combo and pressure from the side. Then there is the Aura. I do think that people are "helping" Lucario players too much by doing more damage than they need. The whole fight against Lucario should work like 1. Get Lucario to kill % 2. Avoid any extra damage once Lucario is at kill % 3. Fish for the kill. Atm that is not happening, but perhaps in the future people get a hang of it.
In general I don't see him as good of a character as people claim him to be. Too flawed by the design if you ask me.

Ganondorf is a weird one. He does have overall better results than majority of the characters below and his moveset isn't a mess like Pac-Man's. Just like others in the low tier he is hindered by his mobility, but unlike others below him he does have fuctional moveset and strong reward from getting in. For example Kirby does have poor mobility like Ganondorf, but his damage output is worse along with his ability to end stocks. Also it is a bit harder to platform camp Ganondorf than Kirby due to his massive hitboxes. Unless you have top tier mobility you will most likely get hit from his Uair if you try to platform camp. Yes his disadvantage state is horrible, but that goes to every character below him (expect Doc).
I am indeed biased when it comes to rating Ganondorf, but I have hard time seeing him being lower than that when there are characters that are performing worse than him or are overall weaker in many areas.

Also sorry for my poorish english. It is really late where I live so there might be quite a bit of grammar errors etc due to being tired.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Lucario has 2 things that make him pretty "eh" in my eyes. Thous being his lack of threat at lower % and his lack of quick grounded options. While he has good damage output he does struggle against grounded opponents due to his slow options. His quickest grounded options are Utilt and Jab which both are frame 6. Not only are his moves slow they also lack range which hinders his neutral even more. Lucario in general has hard time keeping foes at bay along with approaching himself. Also he does get platform camped rather well due to slow aerials along with slowish aerial mobility. In general his disadvantage state isn't that great. He is one of the easiest characters to combo and pressure from the side. Then there is the Aura. I do think that people are "helping" Lucario players too much by doing more damage than they need. The whole fight against Lucario should work like 1. Get Lucario to kill % 2. Avoid any extra damage once Lucario is at kill % 3. Fish for the kill. Atm that is not happening, but perhaps in the future people get a hang of it.
In general I don't see him as good of a character as people claim him to be. Too flawed by the design if you ask me.

Ganondorf is a weird one. He does have overall better results than majority of the characters below and his moveset isn't a mess like Pac-Man's. Just like others in the low tier he is hindered by his mobility, but unlike others below him he does have fuctional moveset and strong reward from getting in. For example Kirby does have poor mobility like Ganondorf, but his damage output is worse along with his ability to end stocks. Also it is a bit harder to platform camp Ganondorf than Kirby due to his massive hitboxes. Unless you have top tier mobility you will most likely get hit from his Uair if you try to platform camp. Yes his disadvantage state is horrible, but that goes to every character below him (expect Doc).
I am indeed biased when it comes to rating Ganondorf, but I have hard time seeing him being lower than that when there are characters that are performing worse than him or are overall weaker in many areas.

Also sorry for my poorish english. It is really late where I live so there might be quite a bit of grammar errors etc due to being tired.

Your English is good dude, don't worry about it, we can all understand it. It's better than most native English speakers who don't even try to be correct most of the time (which low-key triggers me lmao).

But it's nice to know there are people that don't put Ganondorf bottom 3 by default. I think it takes a player to play an actual good Ganondorf main offline in tournament to realise that he isn't quite that bad. While he's likely still bottom 10 in my eyes, I could easily see him out of the bottom 5. His results are indeed far better than the other bottom tiers and most low tiers too.

Luckily, in my area, we have the best Ganon in the UK, FOB (who also happens to be my doubles partner; other topic, Ganon is amazing in dubs, we ended up 5th at the last big UK tournament. Bayo-Ganon is the future kek). Dying at 50% or less is a very real thing and not niche. If you're playing a Ganon who knows what he's doing it does happen. Average death percent is around 75%. Punishing Ganon's moves on shield is actually incredibly hard if not impossible when spaced, something other lower tiers lack (if they aren't safe, they're relatively easy to punish in general that is; Ganon's moves hitting like a truck makes them very hard to punish). Ganondorf's recovery is bad, but it's not Little Mac, nor Doc. Dark Dive gets extremely good distance and has some of the biggest magnet hands in the game. Ganondorf will always save his jump and go low, and he can almost always make it back. The way to stop him is somehow catch his jump before you launch him offstage. Then it's bad. His offstage game is actually very scary. All he needs to do is hold onto the ledge or stand on the ledge and he has all he needs. Dair of course kills you at 10%, but the sour hit of Uair that semi spikes backward is arguably his best gimping tool. Stays out for an eternity too.

Of course he still has his own problems, I'm not trying to hide that; still huge, slow and heavy, which causes problems, amongst other things, but my post is to just highlight that Ganondorf indeed has good options.

Get out there and challenge a real Ganondorf main people. You'll soon see what I'm on about.

 

[Frihetsanka]

But it's nice to know there are people that don't put Ganondorf bottom 3 by default. I think it takes a player to play an actual good Ganondorf main offline in tournament to realise that he isn't quite that bad. While he's likely still bottom 10 in my eyes, I could easily see him out of the bottom 5. His results are indeed far better than the other bottom tiers and most low tiers too.

It's possible, but I think the same thing applies to characters like King Dedede and Zelda (though Ganondorf might be better than those two). I could see him potentially getting out of bottom 5 (partly thanks to Kirby falling off pretty hard), but not by much.

Get out there and challenge a real Ganondorf main people. You'll soon see what I'm on about.

This applies to King Dedede, Bowser Jr., and Zelda as well. Potentially even Jigglypuff. Every non-custom character in this game can be scary. Good Pac-Man players can do really well (just look at Abadango), as can good Bowser Jr. players (just look at Tweek). Granted, patches + DLC characters exist, but I still believe those characters can do things if they get the opportunity. They're still worse than most characters, though.

This is the main reason why I don't like the term "Bottom tier" for Smash 4. Yeah, Ganondorf and King Dedede may be bottom tier if we're considering bottom 5 bottom tier, but these characters can still do quite a bit and win locals and maybe even nationals. How many nationals (or locals, for that matter) did Melee Pichu or Melee Kirby win (granted, Fonzo once won a Brawl tournament with mostly Ganondorf)? Big D in Canada has gotten pretty good results (although I don't know how much he uses King Dedede), even occasionally beating Locus!

 

[Bigbomb2]

Dang, this game has a lot of solid characters. At least the meta is sort of "settling" so people's lists don't seem drastically different from each other. At the end of the day, we got like 5 top tiers, like 10-12 high tiers, everyone else, then bottom 5 or so.

 

[FamilyTeam]

I command myself to rise from my grave and rescue Chrom's daughter.

I am mostly here because of BB3 and Routa qts.
I honestly stopped theorizing about the Tier List as soon as I basically stopped keeping up with tournaments. But since Smash 4's "meta" is in a weird position I think it might be relevant to talk about it again.
About and in our current meta: I don't think there's anybody in the Marcina Labbing Discord currently who believes either character is Top 10. I think most of us on average tend to place them together in the 11-13th place mark. I am a bit more extreme in this sense that I still firmly believe I'll see both falling top Top 20 somewhere along the 15-16th place mark sometime in the future. Marth is in no way better than Fox, Mario and Mewtwo as well, frankly.

I honestly always believed was better than most people and I have no shame in admitting I hold the unpopular opinion she has the potential to be better than Marth and Lucina. I'm happy to see she's finally getting nice results.

I've hung around long enough now to say that I think in no way she deserves to be labelled as the worst character in the game. Yes we all had this conversation before, "someone needs to be at the bottom", but I believe that someone isn't Zelda. She has what it takes to at least not be instantly Bottom 5 - if you ever saw the good Zeldas play, you could see how dangerous she is in action. Her recovery goes super far and she can mix up where she goes very well with Teleport (+ Edge Cancels with Teleport). Teleport is pretty safe as well so it's not a good idea to challenge it when she's recovering. Her recovery going super far means she has a really good edgeguarding game as well and moves like Dair and Nair really help her in this regard. From the Ledge she has Phantom and Din's Fire to force people to take more linear paths to the ledge. On stage, she has a pretty okay EDD to help her mobility, quite good grab game that allows her to get quite a lot of damage per grab (though it can be hard for her to get grabs on some characters) and a lot of her moveset combos into Up Air for an early KO.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I am a bit more extreme in this sense that I still firmly believe I'll see both falling top Top 20 somewhere along the 15-16th place mark sometime in the future.

You know what? I'm actually inclined to agree with this. They probably sit around 14-17 depending on a few other characters, but I believe Marth in particular was overhyped because of MkLeo.

I honestly always believed was better than most people and I have no shame in admitting I hold the unpopular opinion she has the potential to be better than Marth and Lucina.

I used to think that Marth and Lucina were clearly better than Corrin, but now I'm not so sure anymore. Corrin could very well be better than both of them. She'll probably never be top tier, but she could be around Pikachu level of high tier.

Yes we all had this conversation before, "someone needs to be at the bottom", but I believe that someone isn't Zelda.

Zelda is certainly a flawed character, but at least she has better frame data than King Dedede and better ways to deal with defensive play than Jigglypuff. I don't think she's going to get out of low tier anytime soon, but she's not super terrible.

Jigglypuff is probably the worst non-Mii character. Sure, Jigglypuff has a lot of good stuff going for her, but her inability to play around defensive play means she really struggles to take stock against careful players. If only she had a good kill throw... But no, she can't have that, and Pound is not safe on shield. I think it's also telling that characters like Ganondorf, Zelda, and King Dedede sometimes do well at regional levels but you almost never see a good Jigglypuff. The same could probably be said about Kirby, who might very well be a bottom 5 character in Smash 4.

 

[Zerp]

So, now that we know the next 4BR Tier List is in the works and is coming out soonish (no dates were given), how long after the next Tier List should we expect to wait before the next community tier list's voting starts up? An day, two days, an week, two weeks, an month, two months, etc?

 

[Bowserboy3]

So, now that we know the next 4BR Tier List is in the works and is coming out soonish (no dates were given), how long after the next Tier List should we expect to wait before the next community tier list's voting starts up? An day, two days, an week, two weeks, an month, two months, etc?

I have been stalling this for a while if I'm honest.

I generally like it when there's a new official tier list out. That way, people are very interested and willing to share opinions. That way, we generally get a very rich list full of opinion. If there are common discrepancies in the tier list, people will come and talk about it for example.

Hopefully a new tier list will be out in a months time; that'd be ideal.

 

[FamilyTeam]

My honest opinions about what may or may not happen in the next tier list:

• Top 4 stays the same
• Mario and Sonic drop a bit, Fox rises a bit
• Marth drops, ZSS in front of him (like it literally should've always been)
• Corrin keeps placement or rises one and people can now stop complaining this isn't justified
• Lucina very close if not right besides Marth
• Megaman drops, Peach, Luigi and Falcon rise drastically
• Olimar rises
• Link and Duck Hunt rise considerably
• Roy rises a fair bit

I'd love to see Zelda outside Bottom 3 but that'd imply anybody besides me cares.