Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

[Browny]

Every time someone stands on the edge and does nothing except perfect shield his upb coming back down, which also achieves nothing, they deserve to lose.

I want people to remember this if they are watching Civil War this weekend. In doubles as Leo was cloud even against Zero and Nairo this just kept on happening.

You need to ask yourself, what is the point? In doubles there is a 1vs1 on one side of the stage when a cloud is offstage and even players like Zero just stand at the ledge, looking like an idiot doing nothing except shielding his upb. He could have used that time to do a 2vs1 with his team mate.

Either edgeguard cloud, or do something useful with the time he is offstage. If you are a character with a charge move, use that time to charge it up. Anything is better than standing still at the edge. It makes cloud seem better that he actually is.

 

[Frihetsanka]

ZeRo lost to a Fox that wasn't Larry Lurr. Some people have been putting Fox at the bottom of top tier, but is he really? Not only does Fox have great theory and a great MU chart, but he also has some pretty good results.

 

[jespoke]

Fox is a character is played by a lot of tier 3 players raking in points for his results.

He is also a character who "theory" says simultaneously he is so fast and threatening he is top tier, and that everyone can lol-combo him out of relevancy. I agree with neither point.

 

[Bowserboy3]

ZeRo lost to a Fox that wasn't Larry Lurr. Some people have been putting Fox at the bottom of top tier, but is he really? Not only does Fox have great theory and a great MU chart, but he also has some pretty good results.

So ZeRo got beat by a Fox, huh?

ZeRo just got eliminated by a completely unknown, unranked ZSS, too.

What do we do about her?

(don't answer this question btw; this whole post is sarcasm - I very much doubt these players will make it to top 8 anyway. These things don't mean a huge deal. Also that Fox player is a well known Brawl player, so he's got some reputation at least)

---
Apologies, but I'll be updating either tomorrow or the day after; I'm away from home as I have a tournament tomorrow.

 

[Nah]

this is just a reminder that someone has to be at the bottom of the tier, but it's not a huge deal who is since they're all ****ing monsters anyway

 

[Frihetsanka]

I moved Rosalina & Luma up two spots.

 

[Bigbomb2]

Well that Tournament was something. Not sure I would switch my votes around, because any one of these characters had a shot at winning. Stuff is nuts yo

 

[Bowserboy3]

It's finally time!

UPDATING... albeit rather slow and periodically.

 

[Bowserboy3]

UPDATED!

I am personally pleased with how this tier ended up looking. The only close characters were ZSS and Fox, the latter of whom averaged out at .08 less than ZSS. Everyone else slotted in in fairly normal manners.

The next round is the final round! Please read the rules before voting. If you have any questions, please ask and I'll try my best to answer.

Of note, this round will likely go on a little longer than usual to get the best slew of votes to draw from.

Spoiler: Rules

THE VOTING WITHIN TIERS HAS NOW CONCLUDED!...

... however, there is still one final round left; the wildcard round!

This round is simple. You can pick any character from this list; ANY at all, and choose to vote them up or down a tier.

You can only choose one character to vote on. The character (s; just clarifying this) with the bigger/more noticeable amount of votes will move.

Spoiler: Current List as of 4.22

Top Tier [LOCKED]: ,,,,,,,,,()
High Tier [LOCKED]: ,,/,,,()
Mid Tier (+) [LOCKED]: ,,,,,,,()
Mid Tier [LOCKED]:,,,,,,,
Mid Tier (-) [LOCKED]:,,,,,,
Low Tier [LOCKED]:,,,,/,,,
Bottom Tier [LOCKED]:,,,,,

My vote: +1
I'm not 100% sure who to move yet, but the biggest outlier in my opinion is definitely . Her usage in the current metagame has shown that she has counterpick potential more so than any other low tier character, with players like Salem and ESAM getting notable success with her.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Wild card, that's actually a really good idea.
I'm interested in seeing everyone else's opinions. (Expect a lot of Links)


+

I feel this character has more room to grow ever since Ryo pulled him out at Smash Con.
He's got great mobility for pressuring, amazing at racking up damage and a very strong punish game. As well as few kill confirms off of Nair 1 and Jab.
Seeing him in low tier just doesn't suit him. (Even more so then the Doctor IMO)

 

[Frihetsanka]

Potential characters to move up:

Bottom tier should be renamed to Low Tier -, in my opinion. 4BR no longer uses the term and I think that's the right decision. Trela showed that even 1111 Swordsfighter can do reasonably well. With that being said, aside from renaming I don't think anyone should move up.

Low tier: Samus should be somewhere in one of the mid tiers. Roy, Charizard, and Falco have some potential to move up as well. I'd probably only consider voting for Samus though, since there are so many options and I only get one vote.

Mid Tier (-): Wario, Shulk, and Duck Hunt could move up. Shulk is probably the only one I'd consider voting for at this point in time.

Mid Tier: Olimar is high tier. Bowser, Donkey Kong, and Link are Mid Tier (+). Robin, R.O.B., and Yoshi are potentially Mid Tier (+). Ike might be Mid Tier (-). I would consider voting for Olimar, Bowser, Donkey Kong, and Link.

Mid Tier (+): Corrin, Lucario, and Luigi are high tier. Captain Falcon and Peach might be high tier as well. Mother and Kid Icarus should stay in this tier. I would consider voting for Corrin, Lucario, and Luigi.

High Tier: Lucina might be top tier, but I won't vote for her since there are so many other options.

Top Tier: It's fine.
So, my potential candidates for moving up:

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Right now my vote goes to:
+1

After what's happened in the few months we've been arranging each tier separately, tons of characters have proven their worth more and more. However, in my eyes no character is currently farther deviated from where they should be than Link. T just showed the world that all the potential this character has is truly valuable by placing 3rd at the biggest Sm4sh tournament yet, so he should definitely be high mid tier at worst, not the bottom of regular mid tier.

 

[TDK]

+

Link can viably compete and win in smash 4.

 

[Routa]

There are couple of characters that I think should move around. These characters are: Samus (+), Gunner (+), Palutena (-) and Pac-Man (-). I don't think that Link, Shulk or Lucario should move up. These characters are not as great as they seem on these right hands. T is a great player and should be given all the credit from getting so far. We must remember that all of these characters have really bad disadvantage state which cannot be ignored. While these characters have been doing great lately we simply cannot ignore other factors like MU knowledge which is one of the reasons why these characters have been showing up. For example Lucario might end up being one hit wonder due to people learning the MU and finding out ways to abuse his poor mobility and bad disadvantage state. While I do think these characters are good I still would not vote them to be higher.

My vote goes to Samus in the end +. I'm simply voteing her higher due to her having better theory and data than others have in the same tier.

 

[Deleted member]

+ for him to be higher in his tier, or somewhere in solid mid.

 

[Nah]

Three's really not much point in re-naming Bottom Tier to "Low Tier-". It's still the same thing. Part of the reason why it's called bottom tier is because it's the tier that's physically at the bottom of the list, same as top tier being named top tier since it's at the top of the list. We can still call it bottom tier but understand that bottom tier in one game is not the same as bottom tier in another game.

But anyway, there's a handful of characters that have rights to moving up or down a tier, but we can only pick one so I think for now at least I'll go +. Not sure why a character like her should be in the same tier as crap like Kirby or Bowser Jr.

 

[Bigbomb2]

Just a note on Link, mained him since day 1. He still has a lot of issues of Sheik. That's his worst MU for sure and can't be ignored. Also, Link is surprisingly stupid hard to play at a high level. Try keeping all his tech in mind while actively playing; it's hard stuff.T didn't use a lot of this, so I can never count Link out. But, his flaws are still there, and Sheik still exists, so I think he's fine where he is. He still proved that if he has a little luck, he can potentially win even the big stuff. (Oh yeah ROB really blows for him too).

As for who I'd move, I think and are the best candidates. But I have to give the edge to , she is pretty rare but she showed she CAN be a threat at high level. Otherwise, this list is looking pretty reflective the tiers right now

 

[MarioManTAW]

Just a note on Link, mained him since day 1. He still has a lot of issues of Sheik. That's his worst MU for sure and can't be ignored. Also, Link is surprisingly stupid hard to play at a high level. Try keeping all his tech in mind while actively playing; it's hard stuff.T didn't use a lot of this, so I can never count Link out. But, his flaws are still there, and Sheik still exists, so I think he's fine where he is. He still proved that if he has a little luck, he can potentially win even the big stuff. (Oh yeah ROB really blows for him too).

As for who I'd move, I think and are the best candidates. But I have to give the edge to , she is pretty rare but she showed she CAN be a threat at high level. Otherwise, this list is looking pretty reflective the tiers right now

T beat k9sbruce, though, so Sheik's definitely not unwinnable.

Also, I don't know if anyone wants to see this, but here's a tier list based solely on Civil War Singles results (check spoiler for methods, parentheses indicate identical point values):

A:
B: ()
C: ()()()
D: ()
F: ()

Spoiler: Scoring Methods

I made the list using a points system as defined by smash.gg's Fantasy.
550 1st
520 2nd
490 3rd
460 4th
430 5th
390 7th
350 9th
310 13th
270 17th
220 25th
170 33rd
120 49th
60 65th
0 97th and lower

To determine each character's score, I basically envisioned what the score would be if I made a Fantasy team of all the players of that character.
For players who played more than one character, I placed them with whoever they played most in top 96 (NAKAT represents Fox, not Ness, and Tweek represents Cloud, not DK, for example). This was pretty clear-cut for most players, but for ESAM and SS, I placed their score with both of their primary characters (Pikachu and Samus for ESAM, Villager and Ness for SS), so that each gets the same amount of points they would have if their player only played one of the characters (basically no points were deducted for dual maining over single maining).

Letter-point correspondence:
A: >900 (actual range: 990-1350)
B: 400-900 (actual range: 430-840)
C: 150-400 (actual range: 180-340)
D: <150 (actual range: 60-120)
F: 0

Some interesting things to note:
The top 7 (A tier plus ) are the usual suspects, but 3 of the characters considered least relevant of the top tiers () were notably higher than 7th-10th.
's results identical to 's and equivalent to 's.
over and at only 30th.
failing to place (mostly due to their best players not attending).
, who has not been under much discussion, in the top 10, above
Despite the massive hype, at only 16th due to being carried by T.
Speaking of carrying, all the characters "carried" by one player (only 1 placed):

 

[JayZee1700]

+
I've stressed this so much that I'm basically repeating myself. All needed to become a high tier was results. He has the kill power, the zoning, the utilities, but had no player that could showcase him. Thankfully, T proved to the community how good Link is, scoring wins on Fatality, Abadango, Tsu, NAKAT, and K9, until Fatality got his loser's runback, ending T's run at Civil War at an incredible 3rd place. To the community, this was a miracle for a solo main to make even top 16, forget top 8 or top 3. He's always been looked down upon because he's never had the results to back up his potential, but now he has some. Not to mention he has debatably one of the best MUs against .

I also want to mention as a candidate. At Civil War, HIKARU secured wins on VoiD, Tsu, Mr. R, ESAM, and Konga. He fell to Abadango and Kirihara, but finishing 7th place as a (mostly) solo DK main is pretty impressive. Not to mention that DK has had plenty of results before Civil War, coming from players like DKWill, Larry Lurr and Tweek. DK had his break out at Civil War, which I think at least gives him an honorable mention.

 

[MarioManTAW]

I also want to mention as a candidate. At Civil War, HIKARU secured wins on VoiD, Tsu, Mr. R, ESAM, and Konga. He fell to Abadango and Kirihara, but finishing 7th place as a (mostly) solo DK main is pretty impressive. Not to mention that DK has had plenty of results before Civil War, coming from players like DKWill, Larry Lurr and Tweek. DK had his break out at Civil War, which I think at least gives him an honorable mention.

Not sure what to make of this, honestly. Yes, HIKARU was amazing at Civil War, and yes, this is probably DK's strongest showing yet, but I'm not convinced the trend will last, just because it's DK. Previous DK results ended up having short-lived hype trains. Ding Dong discovered, then a lull. Larry Lurr picks up DK, then a lull. Tweek picks up DK and wins an MSM, then a lull. HIKARU's amazing performance, possibly DK's best showing, but I think the hype here might be short-lived. Also compare Kameme's Mega Man at EVO and Tsu's Lucario at Frostbite.

 

[DarkAuraful]

+ vote for
I ALWAYS knew Link has the potentiality to be a mid-tier (somewhere between and in this case). It helped that he was well balanced in Sm4sh and that was also where he totally had his A-game in. His placement at 2GGT Civil War pretty much proved it and Link could be capable of even more if this keeps up!

 

[JayZee1700]

Not sure what to make of this, honestly. Yes, HIKARU was amazing at Civil War, and yes, this is probably DK's strongest showing yet, but I'm not convinced the trend will last, just because it's DK. Previous DK results ended up having short-lived hype trains. Ding Dong discovered, then a lull. Larry Lurr picks up DK, then a lull. Tweek picks up DK and wins an MSM, then a lull. HIKARU's amazing performance, possibly DK's best showing, but I think the hype here might be short-lived. Also compare Kameme's Mega Man at EVO and Tsu's Lucario at Frostbite.

That's why I didn't vote for him.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Votes thus far:

: 4
: 4
: 1
: 1

Bowserboy3 How many upvotes are needed in order to move up a tier? Ideally I'd like to see 3-4 characters move up (I'd like to see more but that's not realistic).

 

[Nah]

oh yeah one other thing, let's not all go and upvote or downvote a character because of their performance at whatever recent tourney

I don't care how stacked Civil War was or how hype some of the matches were, let's please not use it as the sole reason for any arguments please

this really shouldn't have to be said every single time but hey

 

[Frihetsanka]

I don't care how stacked Civil War was or how hype some of the matches were, let's please not use it as the sole reason for any arguments please

Before Civil War, I thought that every character that ended up doing surprisingly well in Civil War deserved to be higher, with the exception of Ryu. This tier list underrates so many characters.

To compare with the 4BR list: In the 4BR list, Peach, Captain Falcon, Lucario, and Corrin are high tier. In this list, they're just Mid+. In the 4BR list, Bowser, Olimar, Robin, R.O.B., and Yoshi are Mid+, here there are just mid.

There are some things this list does better, though. The 4BR list put decent characters like Little Mac, Palutena, and Pac-Man in Low tier, while this tier list put them in Mid-. Overall, both tier lists have some issues, but I think I prefer the 4BR a bit more than this one. I think part of the reason this tier list ended up as it did was because we decided on the tier names too late: For instance, I counter-voted Olimar since I didn't think he should be high tier*, but then it turned out that tier 3 was Mid tier+ rather than High-. For the next tier list we should decide on tier names earlier.

*I underrated Olimar at the time, he's actually high tier.

Anyway. At least we might be able to get 2-4 characters to move up a tier.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Bowserboy3 How many upvotes are needed in order to move up a tier? Ideally I'd like to see 3-4 characters move up (I'd like to see more but that's not realistic).

How many votes a character needs to move up, and how many characters that can move up will depend on how many votes come in.

However, if we're going off the record a little, around 5/7 votes to move is a good starting point (so in theory, Samus and Link are quite close to being able to move up).

I want to keep this round going a bit longer than usual too, so we get the best chance at getting as many votes as possible. I'll likely keep this up for around two weeks at minimum.

 

[FamilyTeam]

People that know me more personally will know that I am not in position to read much. (I am even typing this with my eyes closed and making slight corrections later)
But well, I assume it's time to vote:
-
Look, the sooner we realise he is not Top Tier, the better.
Controversial opinion: To me he is 12th place at absolute best and he has nowhere to go but back down to 15th or maybe even 20th later on.
"Tipper is scary!"
"But MKLeo!"
Let's start by saying that if at any point you are playing this game scared, you are doing something wrong. Be mindful of what the consequences are but don't be scared. If you ain't got the nerves of steel to handle this stuff, you're not going anywhere in the game with such weak guts. And I also see Leo using almost as much, if not more, than Marth, but every single win of his is attributed to Marth by default, which is just amazing, right?
But what is is this good for, anyway?

 

[Bowserboy3]

How can Marth not be top tier with one of the best results totals worldwide? It's not just Leo doing things with him (at top level play yes I'll give you that); the fact he garners fantastic results at all levels of play speaks of him not just being carried by one good player.

I mean, he also has the range and frame data to deal with arguably any MU in the game... there's not much else to say really.

And yes, before you mention it, this applies to Lucina too; range and frame data affect MU's more than "omg tipper" do, the two things of which Lucina also has.

To be honest, I was unsure whether to vote on , or in my vote. These three all deserve to be higher IMO.

Still went with Samus in the end, if just because I feel she is being mis-represented by her placement the most currently.

 

[Tizio Random]

+
I know you guys are all-in for and (and hopefully I think that they will go up anyway) but I want to use my vote to move Falcon to High Tier. What Fatality showed us at Civil War was amazing, yeah, but it's not just the placing that made me choose him. Other than his already known qualities like his amazing movement in general, dash grab, kill power and absurd disjoint (have you seen jab and fsmash?), I think he has great potential:

• His advantage state, which is becoming more and more prominent as the metagame progresses, looks terrifying boasting footstool true combos that can possibly end your stock as quick as you could imagine and other set-ups and 50-50s.
• Disadvantage is also way better than what people give him credit for. Fatality mixed up his recovery so well, I hardly saw him get gimped as much as everyone would expect. He also used Falcon amazing limbs of his aerials to escape pressure and juggles. When he used his own uair to clank with Luma uair I knew something was up.

I want to give him my trust because I think he has something to offer. He is top 20, at least. The moves have been shown.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Honestly, Falcon was one of my top priorities to move up, as well as Samus, Shulk, and to a lesser extent Lucario, Lucina, Olimar, and Roy. In the end, I chose to vote Link up because in my opinion he deserves to move more than a tier up, where the others should only move one tier up at most.

 

[Zerp]

+
When you're this far in denial nothing hurts!







For real though, I'd like to vote Olimar up. +

 

[Wintermelon43]

+

Shame you can't vote for 2 though, I wanna upvote Kirby too.

Edit:Also, what's with all the Link upvoting? tbh he seems fine in this spot, maybe a few spots higher. Although I also thought Link seemed a little high before Civil War anyway, I thought he was lower mid at that point rather than mid, I just never voted him down since it wasn't that big of a problem. But I think putting him in Upper Mid Tier already is a bit of an overreaction to T's run at Civil War. I wanna see T get more results and beat more of the international players and top tiers before putting him any higher than mid tier.

Now, I'm not saying Link can't be an upper mid tier, I think it COULD honestly happen at some point, I just feel like it's too quick to put him that high already.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Now, I'm not saying Link can't be an upper mid tier, I think it COULD honestly happen at some point, I just feel like it's too quick to put him that high already.

Called it!

 

[ShadowGuy1]

+


Would of upvotes Link but I think we need to see more of him in the west. Plus I feel that Shulk should be higher with his growing results.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Why was Bottom Tier dropped?

With a few rare exceptions, many characters in the game are capable of performing well at the regional level, and can sometimes break out at national or higher levels. While the game definitely has tiers, 4BR members seemed to agree; even though there are a few characters that have tended to struggle quite a bit in the meta, there isn't anything that would be worthy of being considered "Bottom Tier" and, thus, the label was dropped.

This can also be extended as to why there has been less individual tiers (7 tiers, coming down from 9) and Top Tier as a whole having grown larger; with more characters being developed and their potential being put to work at the highest levels of play, many characters have shot up in viability, even without a patch.

https://smashboards.com/threads/4br-tier-list-v3-followup.446782/

I agree. Aside from maybe Brawler 1111, Smash 4 seems to lack a bottom tier. Characters like King Dedede, Ganondorf, Zelda, and Jigglypuff (who, I'd argue, is slightly underrated) can still get some decent results, especially at locals. Almost half of the cast is in high tier or top tier (23 in the 4BR, I add Luigi and Olimar and thus have 25 for my personal tier list). Smash 4 is significantly more balanced than previous games and thus there doesn't need to be a bottom tier.

Let's look at Melee, shall we? Zelda and Ness were in Low tier, not bottom. Melee Ness is arguably worse than the worst characters in Smash 4 (going 35-65 with all top tiers, according to the most recent MU chart, and even 40-60 with many mid tiers). Meanwhile, a character like Jigglypuff actually wins a few MUs and goes even with about ten or so, and many of the losses are just 45-55. Melee had 3 bottom tiers: Pichu, Bowser, and Kirby. Those characters have MU charts that are absolutely terrible. Kirby wins two MUs (Bowser and Roy), goes even with two (Link and Pichu), and loses the rest (mostly by -2 and -3). Bowser doesn't win a single MU, and neither does Pichu. These characters are truly Bottom tier. Smash 4 characters like Ganondorf, Zelda, and JIgglypuff? They're not nearly as bad.

What about Brawl? Well... Brawl didn't have a Bottom tier. Ganondorf, Zelda, and Jigglypuff were all Low tier in Brawl. With all this in mind, I think it's reasonable to not have a bottom tier in Smash 4 either.

 

[Deleted member]

Brawl utmost definitely had a bottom tier.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Brawl utmost definitely had a bottom tier.

No, it didn't.

https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_SSB...ighth_tier_list_.28April_25.2C_2013.29.5B8.5D

This is the current Brawl tier list. Like the previous list, the tiers are in groups: Top (SS, S, A+, A-), High (B), Upper Mid (C+, C, C-), Mid (D), Lower Mid (E), and Low (F).]/quote]

 

[Nah]

Again: regardless of what they wanna call it, it's still the same thing.

I'm also not sure how a balancing mess of a game like Brawl couldn't have a bottom tier. But we're here to talk about Smash 4 and not its predecessor, so I'll get back to that.

I think I said before that there's a handful of characters that could certainly stand to move up....but not necessarily a whole tier up. Like for example I do think that Link has been a bit underrated for a while and he should move up, but I think it's more that he should move up within his current tier and not ascend to the next one. I was going to say Shulk too, but he's like 2 spots from the next tier so him moving up to the bottom of the next would be fine lol.

But we only get one vote is has to move them up a whole tier so...

 

[Samuelwisebaggins]

+
I think Shulk and Link should go up as well

 

[Zerp]

I understand why people would want it to be called Low Tier and not Bottom but I just look at the physical placements, if it's at the bottom it's the bottom tier in my eyes. Doesn't matter if it's a relatively minuscule difference in viability between the two tiers to me, if only the Top 15 characters were in game, then I'd be fine with calling Bayonetta Top Tier and Meta Knight Bottom Tier, because she's close to the top and he's close to the bottom. Maybe I'm taking it too literally.

Also, if we're naming the tiers, can we call it "Give buffs to these characters pretty please Tier"?