Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

[QualityQ]

I hope sometime in the near future to be less busy and add some commentary.

,,,,,,,,

-1

Lucario really shouldn't be in this tier, but Lucas is also in this tier. So Lucario is spared the downvote.

While I agree Corrin MUs are highly overrated, it's not because Corrin is bad. It's because people are trying to claim corrin is top 10, which is false. Corrin's pin can be very problematic for characters that don't have ground-based aerials to beat it. And although it hasn't been mentioned yet, bair is a nasty move with almost no risk, but very fast. I don't think Corrin's projectile stops camping effectively, but it punishes shields hard (usually when your opponent expects an aerial you can just fall on them with it). Corrin can approach with pretty good safety.

 

[Frihetsanka]

But a large number of those so called "even" MUs are actually "slight disdavantages". Just nobody wants to admit it.

Could you give some examples?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Nah's list was pretty spot on when including Toon Link, though I'd say minus Mewtwo. Mainly because I think Mewtwo is ever so slightly overrated. Sonic for me is always weird to peg for MUs due to so many different playing styles so I'll say that one is "depends on how the Sonic is playing". Greninja and Bowser I'd have to see played out a whole lot.

But simply put, if Corrin did that well against the top 20... 25 characters in the game, more people would use him. They wouldn't talk about Corrin possibly being good, they'd actually use Corrin. Because quite frankly there are some top 10 characters that don't do that well against other top/high tiers (looking at you Rosalina with your MK MU among others).

Its basic logic: Corirn can't be that good, if he was he would have been sweeping tournament by now because he would never run into a noticeably losing MU according to what a large chunk of you are claiming. It wouldn't be "wait to see if Ryuga ever does better than he did with Ike" or "wait until Cosmos is done school" it would be "man Corrin is everywhere". Instead, his results are overall slowly dropping. Its for a good reason. The claim that their worst MU in the top/highs is 45:55 doesn't hold water.

This isn't a case like Marth where its "maybe they're good now maybe they aren't" and then somebody picks them up and they start running away with it. Two great smashers already have picked up Corrin... and its not happening. Top players like ESAM have picked Corrin up... and then dropped him. He has been tried, tested, and found wanting. SSB4 is a game with an absolutely massive mid tier list (by that I mean true mid tier and not this silly "mid tier +" ) and all of those characters are good and can even make a lot of noise in internationals... just not consistently. People need to not be afraid of that fact.

I also don't think Corrin's metagame will significantly advance until people are willing to let go of the idea that he might be top 15, and actually seriously look at how he does, his weaknesses, and how to get around them. Too much star gazing, not enough down to earth thinking.

 

[Deleted member]

-

 

[Frihetsanka]

Its basic logic: Corirn can't be that good, if he was he would have been sweeping tournament by now because he would never run into a noticeably losing MU according to what a large chunk of you are claiming.

By this logic Greninja, Meta Knight, Toon Link, and Villager are not high tier either. They're not everywhere (they're not that common at all), yet they're still all high tier (right?). Corrin is around Greninja level, somewhere around #17-20 on the tier list (not top 15 imo). Still high tier, but at the lower end of high tier.

It's not really strange that Corrin isn't used much though. Cloud is better, so if you want to win, use Cloud instead. People who play Corrin generally aren't focused on winning at all cost, if they were they'd probably just play Cloud instead (or Diddy Kong, or Sonic, or Sheik, or Bayonetta, or Marth).

So yeah. Corrin is at the bottom of high tier. The thing is, the bottom of high tier is still high tier.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

No upvotes or downvotes, as I would ideally swap three of these characters with three of the tier below. (I'll add an upvote as a countervote to Lucas or the Pits later if need be.)

EDIT: +1 If he goes down, Ness and the Pits should, too. But since only one character can move, he should stay.

Don't understand why people are putting at the top. I admit she's good for mostly the same reasons as Marth, but the three characters I put above her have more consistent and good results than her.

EDIT: Added Lucas upvote, but moved him to the bottom.

Moved Lucas to the bottom of the tier after some reconsiderations, but countervoted him up because he's not the worst by enough to move down.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

-

 

[Frihetsanka]

Since many people here really like talking about results, let's take a look at the results for these characters, shall we? Source: https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

Corrin: 21, tied with Toon Link.
Peach: 14.
Lucario: 24.
Lucas: 36.
Captain Falcon: 15.
Lucina: Solo Lucina is 34, Marth is 10, Marcina is 8.
Pit: 34.
Dark Pit: 0 points.
Ness: 18.

If we're going purely by results, the list should look like this (NOT A VOTE):

Arguably all in the top 5 of that list should be high tier (and Greninja, Mega Man, and maybe Pikachu should not be), based on recent results alone. Personally I think results say less than MU charts, and Captain Falcon's MU chart is not good enough to make him the 15th best character in the game. Duck Hunt should be high tier as well, going purely by recent results.

It's kind of impressing that Corrin manages to get the 21st best results considering how rare she is.

 

[Nemesis561]

+1
Corrin is a really good character, yea his results are not amazing but I think Cloud and now Marth being in the spotlight somewhat contribute to the low amount of people that end up picking this character up. Also like has been stated before, corrins best player doesn't travel, if he did some may have a different opinion

 

[Nah]

It's probably best to look at theory, MU charts, results, and whatever else all together rather than just focus on one over the others. Gives you more information to work with that way which then should allow a more accurate conclusion to be reached.

Or so I think anyway.

Corrin is a really good character,

but why though?

 

[jsmoe]

doesn't have enough of a difference to to warrant a low placing on this teir. As far as being should be below has been doing way better in my area and just seems like the more viable pick however i don't think he should go down a teir

 

[Frihetsanka]

As far as being moved down has been doing way better and just seems like the more viable pick however i dont think he should go any lower than 1 teir

Actually Ness has much better results lately than Lucas does. Lucas' MU chart is arguably a bit better though.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Moved Lucas to the bottom of the tier after some reconsiderations, but countervoted him up because he's not the worst by enough to move down.

Counter votes don't work for tier movement.

 

[jsmoe]

Actually Ness has much better results lately than Lucas does. Lucas' MU chart is arguably a bit better though.

I guess its more from what ive personally seen, i didnt know that i didnt have to vote someone up or down so if i can recend my vote i would rather just have above

 

[Frihetsanka]

I guess its more from what ive personally seen, i didnt know that i didnt have to vote someone up or down so if i can recend my vote i would rather just have above

You can just edit your vote.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

No one needs to move up or down in this tier imo.

 

[Frihetsanka]

To the people who are not putting Lucina at the top (and not voting her up): Why aren't you? Lucina has nearly the same (perhaps even the same) MU chart as Marth does, and Marth is arguably a top 10 character (perhaps top 11). If Marth is, say, #10, should Lucina really be, say #20 or worse? I've seen some people put her at #25, meanwhile Marth is probably around #10. This is strange to me. You could say "results", but by that logic Dark Pit should be much, much lower. I'd argue Lucina actually adds more than Dark Pit does and Marth mains should consider picking her up as a secondary for some matchups where she's slightly better than Marth.

At this point, it seems unlikely that Lucina will move up (unless a lot of people edit in an upvote), but we can at least make sure she's #1 on this tier (and Corrin should be #2).

 

[jsmoe]

To the people who are not putting Lucina at the top (and not voting her up): Why aren't you? Lucina has nearly the same (perhaps even the same) MU chart as Marth does, and Marth is arguably a top 10 character (perhaps top 11). If Marth is, say, #10, should Lucina really be, say #20 or worse? I've seen some people put her at #25, meanwhile Marth is probably around #10. This is strange to me. You could say "results", but by that logic Dark Pit should be much, much lower. I'd argue Lucina actually adds more than Dark Pit does and Marth mains should consider picking her up as a secondary for some matchups where she's slightly better than Marth.

At this point, it seems unlikely that Lucina will move up (unless a lot of people edit in an upvote), but we can at least make sure she's #1 on this tier (and Corrin should be #2).

I think that while everyone agrees that Lucina can be as good as Marth she just dosent have the kind of representation to be on the same tier. I am no Lucina main but i do understand that their movesets are suuuper similar marth just having a bit more vertical range and thats where most people's general knowledge of her ends. I think until she picks up more reps and pulls some numbers that show she is just as good as marth people won't be comfortable putting them on the same tier and with how the tiers look now marth isnt as likely to move to top 10 just yet

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think that while everyone agrees that Lucina can be as good as Marth she just dosent have the kind of representation to be on the same tier. I am no Lucina main but i do understand that their movesets are suuuper similar marth just having a bit more vertical range and thats where most people's general knowledge of her ends. I think until she picks up more reps and pulls some numbers that show she is just as good as marth people won't be comfortable putting them on the same tier and with how the tiers look now marth isnt as likely to move to top 10 just yet

Dark Pit has close to 0 representation yet is generally placed around Pit. This makes sense to me, since Dark Pit has really similar theory and MU chart as Pit. The same is true for Lucina. Lucina is more similar to Marth than Dr. Mario is to Mario.

I don't think she is "just as good as Marth", not any more than Dark Pit is just as good as Pit. She's worse than Marth in general, but better than, say, Greninja or Villager.

Some people look too much at results. Results can show that a character is strong, but they generally struggle to show that a character is weak. Would Mario be placed in top 10 if Ally and ANTi didn't play him? I doubt him, though he should still be in top 10 since that's where he belongs to be as a character. Still, if people want to claim that Lucina is 10 or even 15 spots lower than Marth, they'll need some pretty strong arguments for it. "Lack of representation" is not good enough, since the same would apply to Dark Pit, and he's certainly not even 5 places lower than Pit (he's generally just one spot lower than Pit, or three at most). I think Lucina should be around 1-7 spots lower than Marth or so. More than 7 spots lower is somewhat hard to justify.

 

[Wintermelon43]

To the people who are not putting Lucina at the top (and not voting her up): Why aren't you? Lucina has nearly the same (perhaps even the same) MU chart as Marth does, and Marth is arguably a top 10 character (perhaps top 11). If Marth is, say, #10, should Lucina really be, say #20 or worse? I've seen some people put her at #25, meanwhile Marth is probably around #10. This is strange to me. You could say "results", but by that logic Dark Pit should be much, much lower. I'd argue Lucina actually adds more than Dark Pit does and Marth mains should consider picking her up as a secondary for some matchups where she's slightly better than Marth.

At this point, it seems unlikely that Lucina will move up (unless a lot of people edit in an upvote), but we can at least make sure she's #1 on this tier (and Corrin should be #2).

Because Marth doesn't deserve to be at the top of this tier either (Let alone the tier above) The place that I put Lucina is pretty much where I'd put Marth.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Because Marth doesn't deserve to be at the top of this tier either (Let alone the tier above) The place that I put Lucina is pretty much where I'd put Marth.

This makes some sense, I suppose. I think you're underrating Marth, but at least you're not underrating Lucina relative to Marth.

 

[JB333]

I don't feel like anybody should move up or down in this tier. Corrin is a very solid character, but I feel like the characters in high tier have better representation at the moment.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Bowserboy3 Question: If I don't want Lucas to move down (which he probably won't, since he got 5 downvotes out of 25 votes total), should I change my vote to a downvote for Dark Pit? Or could I do what L1N3R1D3R did and add an upvote for Lucas even though he's not at the top of my list? I think Lucas is fine in this tier, no need to move down.

 

[Routa]

-

 

[Bowserboy3]

Bowserboy3 Question: If I don't want Lucas to move down (which he probably won't, since he got 5 downvotes out of 25 votes total), should I change my vote to a downvote for Dark Pit? Or could I do what L1N3R1D3R did and add an upvote for Lucas even though he's not at the top of my list? I think Lucas is fine in this tier, no need to move down.

Just a note to all, countervotes do get invalidated in this round. I meant to mention this before to L1N3R1D3R when I saw how he'd voted, but I forgot.

If you vote a character at the bottom of a tier and + vote them as a "countervote" to stop them going down, it will just be ignored, because I am interested only in the highest percentage of the votes.

Hard to explain properly, but Lucas probably won't go down unless a mass of voters change their votes anyway.

(which they totally should be doing anyway, Lucas has no reason to be in this tier)

 

[Frihetsanka]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PQ7wEaBFxo

ZeRo thinks Lucina is top tier. Most people in the Marcina Discord seem to think she's top 15 at least. Can we vote her up already? She's really similar to Marth and her MU chart is pretty similar. I don't think she necessarily has to be right next to Marth, but I don't think she should be more than, say, 7 spots lower than Marth at worst.

 

[Bowserboy3]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PQ7wEaBFxo

ZeRo thinks Lucina is top tier. Most people in the Marcina Discord seem to think she's top 15 at least. Can we vote her up already? She's really similar to Marth and her MU chart is pretty similar. I don't think she necessarily has to be right next to Marth, but I don't think she should be more than, say, 7 spots lower than Marth at worst.

This. This. This. This. This.

This.

 

[Tizio Random]

Mid Tier (+):

+

I edited my post, the order is unchanged, I just added the vote for Lucina. I would have done it yesterday but I forgot. It makes sense for her to be in high tier.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

+1
Edited
Alright, even though I haven't seen the video, I'll help with the Lucina push

Edited this, hope it helps and won't cause too much issue

 

[jespoke]

+

I think the first 3 are pretty solidly ahead of the rest of this tier. I understand that Corrin is controversial, but that doesn't matter here. I would sooner vote Lucina up than Pits down, but won't do so.

Edit: Made the jump to +

Since people were making their last minute Lucina upvotes, i took another look at how that would affect the list. I decided that having Marth and Lucina in the same tier, but as the top and bottom spot respectively, is a good representation of how i see them. So i jumped on the bandwagon.

 

[Frihetsanka]

If Lucina moves up, she'll be #19 (or #18 if people downvote one character from high tier, for some reason). Marth will likely either end up near the top of high tier or at the bottom of top tier. Even if Lucina moves up she'd probably be 7-9 spots lower than Marth. At least make it so she'll be in bottom of high tier while Marth is in the top of high tier or bottom of top tier. Having Marth in the bottom of top tier while Lucina is at the top (or near the top) of mid (+) is really strange, isn't it?

Do what's best for the list. Lucina for high tier 2017!

 

[TDK]

The pits can wait, I guess.

+

 

[MrGameguycolor]

+

I don't get why people feel the need to piss on her so much.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

No upvotes or downvotes, as I would ideally swap three of these characters with three of the tier below. (I'll add an upvote as a countervote to Lucas or the Pits later if need be.)
EDIT: +1 If he moves down, Ness and the Pits should, too. But since only one character can move, he shouldn't go down.
Don't understand why people are putting at the top. I admit she's good for mostly the same reasons as Marth, but the three characters I put above her have more consistent and good results than her.


EDIT 1: Moved Lucas to the bottom.
EDIT 2: +1 Alright, I've been convinced.

After more reconsiderations, I've moved Lucina to the top and added an upvote for her, removing the Lucas upvote that was against the rules.

For clarification, I do believe Lucina is good enough for high tier, but not too high within it. In my personal tier list, there is no bottom tier and tier 3 is the lower half of high tier, which is why I kept her there at first, but if we're defining tier 2 as the only high tier (which I disagree with, but I digress), then she should indeed be in it.

 

[Nah]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PQ7wEaBFxo

ZeRo thinks Lucina is top tier. Most people in the Marcina Discord seem to think she's top 15 at least. Can we vote her up already?

"all these people think Lucina is super good, therefore she must be super good and must be upvoted" is kinda basically argumentum ad populum, and so not really a valid point

Buuuuuut it's not like I disagree either, Lucy is almost certainly a high tier character

 

[Frihetsanka]

"all these people think Lucina is super good, therefore she must be super good and must be upvoted" is kinda basically argumentum ad populum, and so not really a valid poin

Actually "argumentum ad populum" is basically like saying "Most people believe it to be true, so it is true". That's not what I'm saying. It is, however, pretty relevant to bring up what people who are invested into the character think (like people on the Marcina Discord). If most of those believe that Lucina is high tier, then that gives us a good reason ponder whether she actually is high tier or not.

Also, it's not like I (and others) haven't used other arguments before. We've spent a great deal of time arguing that Lucina is pretty close to Marth.

Oh, and me bringing up ZeRo was more like stating a fact. ZeRo believes that a lot of characters are top/high tier, after all. With that being said, his opinions are not automatically wrong, and he, too, can make good arguments for his case. I'm not convinced Lucina is top tier, and she can't end up in top tier anyway, but she almost certainly is high tier (at least).

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Lucina isn't that great tbh, there are hardly any solo Lucina mains for a reason. She's a counterpick character that when combined with Marth does well. If you leave marth completely out of the equation she drops down fast. To all people that claim Zero thinks Lucina is top-tier stop being delusional. He didn't say that, he puts them together because if you can play marth you can play Lucina and in certain specific match-ups Lucina does out-preform Marth. Imo Lucina and especially Dark pit shouldn't be on the list at all but instead should be grouped.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Lucina isn't that great tbh, there are hardly any solo Lucina mains for a reason.

There are actually quite a few Lucina mains at non-top level. I agree that a top level Marth has more kill options than a top level Lucina, and is also more likely to get early kills. With that being said, it's not like Lucina should be 10 places lower than Marth or anything like that. She's a few places lower than Marth, which is enough to put her in high tier in my opinion.

Try making a Lucina MU chart and then try making a Marth MU chart. Assuming you did it properly you'll see that their MU charts are almost identical. Let's say Marth is #10 and Lucina is #13. Marth is stronger, yet Lucina isn't too far behind. Do you think it's like, Marth #10, Lucina #25?

 

[MrWhYYZ]

There are actually quite a few Lucina mains at non-top level. I agree that a top level Marth has more kill options than a top level Lucina, and is also more likely to get early kills. With that being said, it's not like Lucina should be 10 places lower than Marth or anything like that. She's a few places lower than Marth, which is enough to put her in high tier in my opinion.

Try making a Lucina MU chart and then try making a Marth MU chart. Assuming you did it properly you'll see that their MU charts are almost identical. Let's say Marth is #10 and Lucina is #13. Marth is stronger, yet Lucina isn't too far behind. Do you think it's like, Marth #10, Lucina #25?

I would put Marth even higher than 10, but Lucina around 25 seems about correct. There aren't a lot of match-ups lucina does better than marth, the other way around however...
Tier-list should reflect top level play, not CloudMaster2000 vs Furrymaniac.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I would put Marth even higher than 10, but Lucina around 25 seems about correct. There aren't a lot of match-ups lucina does better than marth, the other way around however...

There are quite a few MUs where Lucina does slightly better than Marth, and a bunch where Marth does slightly better than Lucina. We're talking like 57-43 instead of 55-45 here though, the difference is generally not that big. If Lucina does that well, why shouldn't she be at the bottom of high tier (which is where she'd end up if she's moved up)? Imagine if Marth were not in the game, where would Lucina be then? High tier? Almost certainly.

Tier-list should reflect top level play, not CloudMaster2000 vs Furrymaniac.

How do you define "top" level play? Top 50? Top 100? Top 200? Top 500?