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Elegant is doing crazy things with him, showing that his immense strengths are plenty enough to make him a valuable counterpick character against certain top tiers like Bayonetta, and generally a strong main in general.
in both my Swords-only run of Awakening, and in Smash 4, i feel a bit attacked. But i want my vote counted so whatever. 
This was actually a tough call, everyone from Luigi-Robin could make a compelling case to move up, gotta go with due to his niche matchups being fairly relevant as cp character in addition to not necessarily being invisible in the scene as well.
faces.Do you mind breaking this down/explaining this to me please?
Male Robin's voice doesn't fit his appearence, female Robin's does. I'm also not much of a fan of the Bishōnen (pretty boy) aesthetic that Japanese games and anime seem to enjoy. With that being said, if others prefer male Robin that's fine. People may use whichever skin they want.Tsk tsk, all these
I'm hurt...
1) Results of this MU being played out since 1.0.4. Ike started having a winning record against top level Sonics ever since this patch. And after that patch Ike got buffed several more times while Sonic got nerfed several more times which would further widen the gap. It wasn't a small margin either. It might be swinging back towards even as of a few months ago but it still is a long ways away. It was close to a 2:1 win ratio at one point in Ike's favour. (Should be noted that despite the heavily lopsided results a lot of Sonic mains have been heavily resistant to the idea that they lose to Ike)
I don't see any reason why Link should move down. I just want to know why you think Link isn't good enough for Mid-Tier-
In my head Link is an odd one out in this tier. He is part of the little group that are top 3 of Mid(-) to me.
Not theory when a 2:1 win ratio says its fact.
Now this feels straight up rude, dismissing it just like that without an argument.
Honestly, most people(Sonic and Marth Mains) call the matchup one of Marths worst. I am sure
Bowserboy3
can elaborate more than I can.
To be honest, the main reason why the Marth:Sonic MU is like sticking pins in your eyes is because Sonic's speed makes him hard to KO.Honestly, most people(Sonic and Marth Mains) call the matchup one of Marths worst. I am sure
faces; you are free to use whoever you like.
,,,,,,,, up a tier. Elegant has proved he is a little higher than this.
Yikes you have no clue what you're talking about when it comes to bowser jr. I don't disagree with your placement of the character within the tier list, but your reasoning is laughable. Oml what did I just read.. why not just say you don't know enough about the character?Low Tier:
No votes in any direction.
Explanations condensed for convenience:
Kirby: Kirby is likely best in this tier, and it can be argued Kirby should be moved up. You really need to watch Poyo or another great Kirby to see how powerful a kirby grab combo can be. I think Kirby has the best OOS options here as well, which single-handedly can win matchups against these characters. Good speed helps with poor range, which is irrelevant to OOS-play anyway. I decided not to move kirby up because of a weak recovery and very little use for special moves. Low-kill power paired with being easy to launch is also not a good combo.
WiiFit: Wii Fit is very unique and, frankly, underappreciated. In addition to having some of the best results in this tier, Wii Fit has access to tools such as burrow, self-healing, and deep breathing that can really cash in. Add-in (arguably) the safest spike in the game, and you have a decent character. Wii Fit struggles with very patient opponents or simply not getting the right hitbox on difficult-to-land moves. Also lacks damage to provide real kill-power, without deep breathing. One of the few characters in this tier that is, in my opinion, more likely to move up rather than down. Salute the Sun? Salute the Sun!
Samus: Samus has always fluctuated between bottom 10 and bottom 15, but has a lot of tools for close combat to make up for lackluster projectiles. The grab is awful, even if samus can get value out of it when it connects. Overall, you still need your opponent to give you an inch first; Samus struggles against shields. Upair strings keep her above other characters in this list more than anything else.
Mii Gunner: Gunner outside of for glory is nonexistent mainly because Gunner and Diddy Kong have similar playstyles. Which means a good gunner would simply move to a better character. However, Gunner is not bad at a trap game, and has remarkable range for projectiles. This is excellent against heavy characters, meaning gunner has good matchups within this tier and the tier below. No kill pressure is a weakness, but not as bad as other characters.
Dr. Mario: Dr. Mario feels very lackluster to play, even with dthrow dair. On top of that, there's barely any representation; it took me a long time to find just one example of his play. Being a worse version of Mario doesn't look good for Dr. Mario's future either given this already-low playerbase.
Roy: Countless players trying to make Roy good has only proven how awful he is, and SEVEN (more if you count robin, etc.) better sword characters means he really brings nothing to the table. A surprisingly good air and run speed keeps him above other characters, though. Lack of range and a bizarre lack of kill pressure keep him from succeeding.
B. Jr: A wide variety of unreliable tools prove to be unreliable. It's nearly impossible to use down special effectively against an opponent, which is key to him making use of otherwise sluggish moves. His recovery options are so poor it's often better to use them on-stage to make the cart a stage hazard. Poor grab data is also a plague.
Charizard: Charizard can feel like a better character if you manage to stay grounded; and there, his range and down special receive good use. But anyone who's played charizard extensively knows once you get knocked in the air, charizard is very, very easy to juggle. Your opponent must make a mistake to land again; which is a very bad trait to have, especially in FD/TaC/DH/Sville stage selection. Generally slow smashes and direct inferiority to Bowser and DK leaves charizard here.
Falco: Falco is the bottom here due to a very weak projectile (the lag is bad enough to make it near-worthless), no grab game, surprisingly weak smashes, and 46th in air speed AND 41st in run speed (see Kurogane). To top it off, he has no weight making him relatively easy to kill. Although down air into 2nd down air *technically* exists, it requires a lot from your opponent and has no real use. He stays in this tier only because dair is an offstage threat, should you ever find your opponent in a bad position.
Other than Samus, Kirby, and Falco, there seems to be no agreement whatsoever among the votes, which is interesting.
That's a fair enough comment (albeit very late and pointless at this stage).
Sure I'll leave a vote. I'm not gonna really write about how he's wrong because ive done that in the past and it's usually ignored. I understand because not many people care about the character since he isn't meta relevant, but it sucks to write a ton and not have it really be noticed. All I ask is if you don't know enough about the character, don't put out misinformation.
+1
"Tier placement is not based on whether the character can beat other characters in the same tier, but rather overall MU chart and results. Little Mac has pretty good results" This. This is what I always tell people to convince them that Mac isn't low tier.
,,,,,,,,
Mods are fantastic aren't they?
,,,,,,,
Please explain whyMid tier:
and below and . I don't see how that makes sense.
My b rob isn't supossed to be there, but I think olimar has what it takes to do decent in the metagame. Olimar has decent representation in the form of shuton, dabuz, myran, and imhip. His matchup spread isn't bad either, as he does good against some of the best characters like diddy kong, which is an important matchup in todays metagame. Bowser and DK are decent heavyweights and are pulling in some good results lately but I feel like there is very simple counter play to them. Don't get me wrong they are characters to look out for but I think olimar edges them out slightly.Please explain why
is a candidate for moving up to high tier. Her MU chart is good, she's in high tier in most top player's tier lists (some even place her in top tier, which I disagree with), and her results are somewhat decent. She does have some flaws, however, so maybe she's just a mid tier character after all? is a slightly weaker version (with some advantages) of a high/top tier character, Marth. This puts her in either high tier or high-mid tier. hits hard, is really fast, has a good combo game, and has some pretty good results. Unfortunately for him, he's somewhat easy to combo and is easily gimped, thus making his MU chart very volatile. His MU chart is not strong enough to make him high tier, although he might be one day if his meta advances enough (probably not) or if certain characters are nerfed (more likely). is top tier, according to ZeRo. I think his MU chart is too weak to even be high tier. He might be high tier if his current MU charts turn out to be incorrect. I personally don't think he is, though. once a candidate for top tier, Ness is now sitting solidly in the upper parts of mid tier. This is not surprising, since his MU chart was never spectacular, and the character was carried by good players such as NAKAT and FOW. NAKAT has since dropped him and FOW is not as active as he used to me. are pretty similar and should be next to each other, though Pit is generally slightly better. The character is pretty versatile but doesn't really win that many important MUs. He's fine, but probably pretty low in this tier. A lack of results aside from Earth doesn't help his case. used to be hyped, but now the hype has fallen off a bit. We're left with a pretty good character with a pretty decent MU chart, and solo Lucas' players can do pretty well. He's not high tier though. could be high tier if Meta Knight and Cloud didn't exist. She's pretty good.
moving to high tier.
I update the list at the end of each round in the original post; I also add it in my "Updated" post too.Alright, I guess I'll do my High-Mid tier list too:
Don't think anyone should move up YET, but I could easily see
Also could we get an updated list posted? It's difficult to make a tier when you can't base it off of other tiers...
---Top Tier:
High Tier:
Mid Tier (+):
Mid Tier:
Mid Tier (-) [LOCKED]:
Low Tier [LOCKED]:
Bottom Tier [LOCKED]:
Interesting. I actually think that most of Mid Tier should move up to Mid Tier+.
I agree with moving
, and maybe and/or up, but I don't really agree with moving more than half of the Upper Mid Tier down. Perhaps , and don't compare to the other Upper Mid Tiers, but they are a lot better than the Mid Tiers, so they wouldn't really fit there. and should move down. The former is DEFINITELY out of place if they were in Mid Tier, and the latter has been getting pretty good results lately. Many players such as Cosmos and Ryuga have proved that this character has what it takes to compete against the top tiers. has many reliable kill setups and a good combo game to lead into those setups. I may be wrong on this, but I think is one of a few characters that have 2 kill throws. is so much better than the Mid Tiers, and I think they have a chance in Lower High tier. players like Samsora and Kie have been playing out of their minds! ESAM said himself that the one player he did not want to play in tournament was Samsora. He ended up losing to Samsora anyway. Also has crazy infinites, which is enough to keep her in Upper Mid Tier if not Lower High Tier.
