Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

[Wintermelon43]

You only get 3 votes.

Damn it. This list will never be fixed...

 

[Sleek Media]

Change mine, then.

+
-
-

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

+1
Can we finally get her into T3

 

[Frihetsanka]

So, I've decided to look at both results and MU chart information, and I have some thoughts about some placements (MU chart statistics https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...ltt6QpIaLk6er4KUcpHkYLe5EI/edit#gid=799454361):

Ness is placing really well, which supports him being high tier. His MU chart is not that great though, which supports him being high-mid tier.

Lucas, on the other hand, has worse results than Ness but a better MU chart. My impression is that Ness is better, though admittedly I've watched more top level Ness players than top level Lucas players. I think it's a bit too early to move him up to high tier though.

Ike is not placing well and his MU chart is not great. Mid tier (5) rather than high-mid (4)?

Same with Link, though his Japanese results might be noteworthy enough for high-mid tier. It's possible the MU charts underestimate him.

If Lucina's MU chart statistics are correct, then she shouldn't be high tier. I kind of suspect people underestimate her though, so just looking at these MU chart statistics is not enough.

Lastly, I'd like to talk about Mii Gunner. Sure, Gunner is lacking results, partly because of no For Glory, and partly because different rules when it comes to bans and such. I suggest people watch some games here and make a decision for themselves whether Mii Gunner is tier 6 or 7: https://smashvods.github.io/ssb4/MiiGunner.html

 

[Egghead]

+1
+1(I now regret this but I will keep this so that the countervotes don't pull Kirby down a tier)

 

[Frihetsanka]

Kirby has next to no results (12 points in top 16, less than Bowser Jr., and 5 points in top 8, less than King Dedede) and a pretty bad MU chart (10 winning, 38 losing, and 6 even). If anything, he's closer to tier 7 than tier 5, I'd argue (though I think he's decent enough to be tier 6). Could the people upvoting Kirby please explain why he should be tier 5?

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

+1 I feel like I shouldn't have to explain myself for this again. Isn't it obvious?
+1 Not quite as obvious as Peach, but evidently a big enough threat in the top level meta game to warrant tier 3. After all, Dabuz has used him a ton recently and Shuton is getting the 4th best results in Japan with him, not to mention that Myran, Angbad, and the other smaller players are still doing pretty well.
Not getting support for him, so replacing him with:
+1 I don't want to waste votes to get rid of tier 7 in the future, and I think he's good enough to be tier 6.
+1 Whoa, since when have people started downvoting Mega Man? Why should he go down?

EDIT: Added Mega Man upvote.
EDIT 2: Removed Olimar upvote, added Roy upvote.

 

[Wintermelon43]

+1 I feel like I shouldn't have to explain myself for this again. Isn't it obvious?
+1 Not quite as obvious as Peach, but evidently a big enough threat in the top level meta game to warrant tier 3. After all, Dabuz has used him a ton recently and Shuton is getting the 4th best results in Japan with him, not to mention that Myran, Angbad, and the other smaller players are still doing pretty well.

Saving my last vote, either to get Falco moving up/down or to countervote Lucas up.

I think it's very clearly obvious that Peach isn't tier 3 so....... don't think it's obvious.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I think it's very clearly obvious that Peach isn't tier 3 so....... don't think it's obvious.

Well, from where I stand, unless you can somehow come up with a solid counter-argument, you don't really have a right to say "it's clearly very obvious that Peach isn't tier 3". It might be better to not phrase your replies in such a way that belittles other user's votes, or makes your opinions sound like fact when they aren't.

You're allowed your own opinion of course, but it's an opinion all the same; remember that.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Well, from where I stand, unless you can somehow come up with a solid counter-argument, you don't really have a right to say "it's clearly very obvious that Peach isn't tier 3". It might be better to not phrase your replies in such a way that belittles other user's votes, or makes your opinions sound like fact when they aren't.

You're allowed your own opinion of course, but it's an opinion all the same; remember that.

That's what I mean. I have a drastictially differant opinion on it, so it's not exactly "obvious"

 

[MarioManTAW]

-
-
Saving my last vote.

 

[Bowserboy3]

That's what I mean. I have a drastictially differant opinion on it, so it's not exactly "obvious"

He wasn't saying it's obvious Peach should be tier 3, but more it's obvious what he would be explaining should he have explain himself for like the 5th time.

But hey, easy misinterpretation.

 

[Zerp]

Yes, although I don't think we should. My main issue with 7 tiers is that we might have to skip Bottom tier, Low tier, or end up with wacky tier names. Also, I think the difference between the characters currently in tier 6 and at least some of the characters currently in tier 8 are pretty significant, so having a tier between would be a good idea. I could see some characters in tier 8 moving up, and maybe a character or two in tier 6 moving down to tier 7.

With 8 tiers:
Top
Upper High
Lower High
High-Mid
Mid
Low-Mid
Low
Bottom

With 7 tiers, alternative 1:
Top
Upper High
Lower High
High-Mid
Mid
Low-Mid
Low

With 7 tiers, alternative 2:
Top
Upper High
Lower High
High-Mid
Mid
Low-Mid
Bottom

With 7 tiers, alternative 3:
Top
Upper High
Lower High
High-Mid
Mid
Low
Bottom

Of course, that would mean that some characters in tier 6 (which I currently regard as low-mid, but which would be Low in alternative 3) should move up. I think our best course of action, right now, is to simply get more characters into tier 7. Maybe get Zelda and/or King Dedede up, maybe get Bowser Jr. and/or Charizard down, and keep Falco in tier 7? That way we could get a tier between 6 and 8 and it'd be easier naming tiers too.

Alternative 1 works decently, but the issue is that many people like the term "bottom tier". We actually used to have 7 tiers, then people started voting characters like Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Brawler and Swordfighter down, which created an 8th tier. A lot of people seem to want 8 tiers, or else they wouldn't have downvoted those characters when we had 7 tiers.

I see what you're saying about the names, and you're kind of right, although I've always thought of the 7 tiers as Top Tier, High Tier, High-Mid Tier, Mid Tier, Low-Mid Tier, Low Tier, and Bottom Tier, which I think works, but eh, more likely than not most people wouldn't agree with the concept of having 7 tiers anyway because they'll either not see it that way or disagree on how big the gap of viablilty between the Bottom Tier characters and the characters above them are. I think I'll still push for it though, maybe.

Anyway,
-1 I do not believe Kirby deserves to move up, this guy's results are so utterly abysmal that you can argue Jigglypuff's are better (counting only 1.1.6 of course) and are on par with most Bottom Tier characters. Think about it, if a characters results are that bad, either Kirby's playerbase is so absolutely terrible that they can't even manage to outplace people playing at a massive disadvantage despite playing a "good" character, their luck is insanely bad, or maybe, just maybe, people are holding the character and it's playerbase to a completely unrealistic expectation. I'm going to assume it's the last option.

I'll save my other two votes for later. Thinking about upvoting Olimar, but I'm questioning whether I want to vote on him or use all my other votes on trying to get rid of Tier 7.
Edit: -1
+1

 

[Frihetsanka]

I see what you're saying about the names, and you're kind of right, although I've always thought of the 7 tiers as Top Tier, High Tier, High-Mid Tier, Mid Tier, Low-Mid Tier, Low Tier, and Bottom Tier, which I think works[...]

I think it used to work pretty well, but right now it looks like we'll have like 14-17 high tier characters, so splitting that tier in two (Upper and Lower) makes sense.

 

[TDK]

-1 /
-1
-1

Not giving up on these.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So, I've decided to look at both results and MU chart information, and I have some thoughts about some placements (MU chart statistics https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...ltt6QpIaLk6er4KUcpHkYLe5EI/edit#gid=799454361):

Ness is placing really well, which supports him being high tier. His MU chart is not that great though, which supports him being high-mid tier.

Lucas, on the other hand, has worse results than Ness but a better MU chart. My impression is that Ness is better, though admittedly I've watched more top level Ness players than top level Lucas players. I think it's a bit too early to move him up to high tier though.

Ike is not placing well and his MU chart is not great. Mid tier (5) rather than high-mid (4)?

Same with Link, though his Japanese results might be noteworthy enough for high-mid tier. It's possible the MU charts underestimate him.

If Lucina's MU chart statistics are correct, then she shouldn't be high tier. I kind of suspect people underestimate her though, so just looking at these MU chart statistics is not enough.

Lastly, I'd like to talk about Mii Gunner. Sure, Gunner is lacking results, partly because of no For Glory, and partly because different rules when it comes to bans and such. I suggest people watch some games here and make a decision for themselves whether Mii Gunner is tier 6 or 7: https://smashvods.github.io/ssb4/MiiGunner.html

Ike's MU chart on there is a complete joke. Ike still has a massively winning record against Sonic and they think he loses to Sonic still? There was minimal to no good Ike input over there judging by the numbers. Should just scratch out his row entirely, its garbo and has a pretty similar syndrome to Lucina's MU list: knows that they character is vaguely good but don't know them well so throw in a +1 against them.

San just won a tournament with solo Ike (don't think results got in in time to be accounted for the rankings). As I've been saying: we've lost a few mains, but the ones we still have are still placing just as consistently as before. The ones in EU that were consistently placing 9th-13th range at large regionals are still doing that (just did that a few weeks back). San is still winning locals and hitting the 7th-13th range at majors in Canada. Rango and a few others are still popping into their usual ranges when they go to tournaments. Ike's viability as a character hasn't dropped by any significant margin due to DLC.

 

[QualityQ]

+1 /
+1
-0 -1

Speaking of matchups, that Reddit post only applies seriously to the top 10 or so characters. Just look at any low tier character. Example: Dark Pit they have one data point from a player who hasn't been seen since January. Justifiable? I think not.

Pac is an interesting case. He has great recovery options, a solid gameplan, and some close-contact support. The main reason he was put in tier 5 over 4 was results; KTAR XIX has removed that gap w/ Sinji's remarkable performance. A 2-0 on False is no joke. I think his solid projectiles, control-based game plan, and opportunistic/adaptable playstyle put him in tier 4. Unless we move some of tier 4 into tier 5, which may happen.

I no longer think it is justifiable to have Little Mac's solid ground game as the sole reason for tier 5. I think Shulk/G&W/Pac solidly beat him unless someone can convince me otherwise. He should move down to 6 with characters more on his level.

 

[Samuelwisebaggins]

+
-
-

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

-1
-1
-1

 

[Deleted member]

-
-
-

 

[Dusk Pit]

+
-
-

 

[Bigbomb2]

+
+ Peach seems to be low key consistently decent for a while now. It helps her players can move around well too. (Least that's what I think :v)

Dunno what to do for last vote

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

+1 I feel like I shouldn't have to explain myself for this again. Isn't it obvious?
+1 Not quite as obvious as Peach, but evidently a big enough threat in the top level meta game to warrant tier 3. After all, Dabuz has used him a ton recently and Shuton is getting the 4th best results in Japan with him, not to mention that Myran, Angbad, and the other smaller players are still doing pretty well.
+1 Whoa, since when have people started downvoting Mega Man? Why should he go down?

EDIT: Added Mega Man upvote.

Added +1 as a countervote.

 

[MarioManTAW]

My (rough) ideas on what the tier list should look like: (some may be subject to change if questioned)

Spoiler

 

[TDK]

My (rough) ideas on what the tier list should look like: (some may be subject to change if questioned)

Spoiler

View attachment 121357

Why is there more than 10 characters between DK and Bowser and almost 20 between Marth and Lucina? Why is Link (and shulk) below Pac-Man, Bowser Jr, and Little Mac? Why is Palutena Bottom 10? Why is Bayo 9th? Why are Cloud and Rosa > Diddy?

 

[MarioManTAW]

Why is there more than 10 characters between DK and Bowser and almost 20 between Marth and Lucina? Why is Link (and shulk) below Pac-Man, Bowser Jr, and Little Mac? Why is Palutena Bottom 10? Why is Bayo 9th? Why are Cloud and Rosa > Diddy?

Sorry, I forgot to mention, characters are not necessarily ranked within tiers, but more at the same/very close level to others in their tier.
Therefore, exactly 10 characters between DK and Bowser and 15 between Marth and Lucina (in each case, fewer if some characters moved from ambiguous tiers). Link and Shulk are at the same level as Pac-Man, Bowser Jr. and Little Mac. Bayo may be higher than 9th and Cloud and Rosa may not be above Diddy.

Perhaps I underestimate Bowser, Lucina, and Palutena, but keep in mind that any apparent ordering within tiers may not be relevant.

 

[TDK]

Sorry, I forgot to mention, characters are not necessarily ranked within tiers, but more at the same/very close level to others in their tier.
Therefore, exactly 10 characters between DK and Bowser and 15 between Marth and Lucina (in each case, fewer if some characters moved from ambiguous tiers). Link and Shulk are at the same level as Pac-Man, Bowser Jr. and Little Mac. Bayo may be higher than 9th and Cloud and Rosa may not be above Diddy.

Perhaps I underestimate Bowser, Lucina, and Palutena, but keep in mind that any apparent ordering within tiers may not be relevant.

That didn't really answer my question.

Why do you think so low of those characters?

 

[Frihetsanka]

I updated my votes: Replaced Lucas and King Dedede votes with a Mii Gunner upvote and Little Mac upvote (counter-votes).

 

[QualityQ]

Grumble, Grumble Countervotes..

I'll change -1 to -1 appropriately.

 

[Routa]

-
-
+

 

[Phuckyew]

I know my post is a mess; I will edit it later.

+COUNTER-VOTE: Guys hear me out; I'm not going to deny that Charizard has significant problems. He's combo food, lacks decent landing/get-up options (making it difficult to come out of a disadvantage state and reestablish neutral) and has an exploitable recovery, but nobody seems to pay any mind to his positive attributes.

First off, he has a solid grabgame. He possesses the 9th fastest running speed and one of the longest non-tether grabs out of the entire cast. These two tools alone allow Charizard to capitalize on misplaced attacks from the opponent with a (pivot/dash)grab. He posses a combo starter in dthrow, a solid kill confirm in uthrow (especially when he utilizes platforms) and potential kill throws/edge-guard setups with his forward and back throws.

He also has access to some solid ariels, all of which possess surprisingly little lag for a super-heavyweight. Bair is perhaps the most notable, as it possesses amazing kill power, a huge range and is safe on shield (due to its range and relatively low landing lag). Fair and Nair both autocancel out of shorthop, and provide charizard with a decent combo game (both can be followed up from dthrow). His other ariels are not as noteworthy but are nonetheless respectable: uair is approximately as strong as a dingdong (but lacks the ability to consistently set up into it) and his dair is a powerful sweetspot meteor.

His specials are decent enough, with none of them bring particularly useless (see ,
,). His flamethrower is a superior version of's, as it causes the opponent to flinch more often and has less startup/ending lag. It can be used to rack up damage, gimp recoveries, and prevent approaches. It's not a particularly great move but it does compliment his kit. His down special Rock Smash functions as one of his few landing options due to it's super armor. It also possesses both high damage and knockback, making learning this multipurpose move essential to playing him properly. His up special Fly has super armor, making it an effective oos option as well as a decent vertical recovery tool. Flare Blitz, while fun to use, is not very good due to it's immense endlag and recoil damage. Its best use would be for recovery, whether it be a mix-up or necessary for getting back to the stage. It also possesses 15% armor and solid kill power so there's that.

Finally, it's time to talk about perhaps his greatest strength, his killpower. As the 4th heaviest character in the game, He can abuse the rage mechanic to boost the knockback of his already excellent finishers, including but its smash attacks, its sweetspotted forward tilt, its forward, up, back, and down aerials, flare blitz, fly, rock smash, and up throw. His decent frame data and fast run speed often allows for openings to trade with or grab the opponent.

In summary, I do not believe Charizard to be tier 7 material. Charizard is a character who rewards good fundamentals, possessing a toolkit with enough flexibility to allow for both defensive and offensive play. Charizard's excellent grab game enables him to secure stocks much earlier and with more consistently than most other characters, even some fellow superheavies (Hello ) and his decent frame data, alongside a fast runspeed also allow Charizard to put up a fight against characters who are not . I understand that he lacks results but so do the rest of the characters he shares the tiers with... And MKLeo believes hes top 15 (lol mkleo) so there's that.

+ Jesus guys calm down with these Roy downvotes; he's fine where he is.

Saving my remaining vote because has enough upvotes. Might put in a upvote later; tier 7 seems kind of pointless with only one character in it.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I want to update this soon, but the voting seems quite slow. I'll give it almost another day, and if voting doesn't pick up, I'll update anyway. Might be a sign that the list is looking good.

 

[Ethan7]

-not tier 3 but looks like she's rising anyways
-not tier 2
+why not?

 

[TDK]

Please never vote anything because "why not".

 

[Frihetsanka]

I suppose it might be a good idea to have some discussion about what each tier means, since I suspect different people might have different criteria for the tiers.

Tier 1: The best of the best. These characters have proven themselves time and time again. In order to qualify, a character must have really good results by at least two top 30 players (or one top 10 player), a really good MU charts and really good results overall. Right now, I think 10 character qualifies for tier 1.

Tier 2: Amazing characters that fall short of tier 1, for some reason. Perhaps they have some MU flaws or perhaps their results are not good enough, or perhaps they simply do not have good enough theory. Even then, a character in tier 2 will be at the upper end of high tier and a really powerful character. I think right now, we have 6-8 character qualifying for tier 2.

Tier 3: Great characters that will generally work really well, but they have some flaws. Perhaps their results are not that impressive at a top level, or perhaps they have some flaws in their MU charts. Still, these characters are really strong and should not be underestimated, high tier for sure. I think right now we have some characters in tier 3 that aren't quite good enough to qualify, so I could see some dropping down to tier 4.

Tier 4: Good characters that see some use, yet they are unlikely to make a large splash as main characters. These characters can do really well in smaller tournaments, but are not good enough to be worth maining when thousands of dollars are on the line. Some of them can make really strong secondaries though. At this point, results matter less than in tier 1-3 and a decent theory and decent MU chart can go a long way. This characters are what I would consider "Upper Mid" or "High-Mid".

Tier 5: Decent characters that can make occasional splashes in tournaments but generally do not get great results. They're generally used more in smaller tournaments where there's not much money on the line. They can do great at locals too, and if you want to main one of these characters for fun, go for it! These characters are not bad and you might see, say, a Palutena make an upset against a top player, but it won't happen often. I consider this "Mid tier".

Tier 6, 7, and 8: Flawed characters that still might have some use as secondaries or pockets. They're not that bad, but you'd be better off picking someone else as a main if you want to win. That being said, the game is balanced enough that you can main these characters and still do well in smaller tournaments (and occasionally even regionals and nationals, I suppose). These characters generally do not get good results, and their MU charts and theory tend to be below average.

Maybe we should get rid of tier 7. My main argument for keeping it is that it makes it easier to name tiers, but if only 1 or 2 characters are in it it's hard to justify keeping it, especially since Falco isn't significantly worse than other tier 6 characters. I also don't think the bottom tiers (aside from maybe Miis) are that much worse than other tier 6s, and does it really matter that much when it comes to the lower tiers? They're all fairly niche anyway.

 

[Ethan7]

Please never vote anything because "why not".

You're right. But Diddy isn't going anywhere anyways.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Is Olimar high tier? Perhaps, although I think we should wait a bit until we decide. Let's put him near the top of high-mid for now and wait a month or two for some more results. I updated my vote and added an Olimar downvote and removed my Little Mac upvote.

 

[QualityQ]

I want to update this soon, but the voting seems quite slow. I'll give it almost another day, and if voting doesn't pick up, I'll update anyway. Might be a sign that the list is looking good.

I'd agree with updating now. There's still parts of this list I'm not sold on, but overall it's not bad.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

+1 I feel like I shouldn't have to explain myself for this again. Isn't it obvious?
+1 Not quite as obvious as Peach, but evidently a big enough threat in the top level meta game to warrant tier 3. After all, Dabuz has used him a ton recently and Shuton is getting the 4th best results in Japan with him, not to mention that Myran, Angbad, and the other smaller players are still doing pretty well.
Not getting support for him, so replacing him with:
+1 I don't want to waste votes to get rid of tier 7 in the future, and I think he's good enough to be tier 6.
+1 Whoa, since when have people started downvoting Mega Man? Why should he go down?

EDIT: Added Mega Man upvote.
EDIT 2: Removed Olimar upvote, added Roy upvote.

Removed +1 (not getting much support), added +1 (tier 7, and he's decent enough to go up rather than down).

Why are people still insistent on having eight tiers? Are there really that many levels of viability? Seven seems much more fitting for how the meta game has shaped itself to be.

 

[Zerp]

Anyway,
-1 I do not believe Kirby deserves to move up, this guy's results are so utterly abysmal that you can argue Jigglypuff's are better (counting only 1.1.6 of course) and are on par with most Bottom Tier characters. Think about it, if a characters results are that bad, either Kirby's playerbase is so absolutely terrible that they can't even manage to outplace people playing at a massive disadvantage despite playing a "good" character, their luck is insanely bad, or maybe, just maybe, people are holding the character and it's playerbase to a completely unrealistic expectation. I'm going to assume it's the last option.

I'll save my other two votes for later. Thinking about upvoting Olimar, but I'm questioning whether I want to vote on him or use all my other votes on trying to get rid of Tier 7.
Edit: -1
+1

Edited my votes, added a +1 Mii Gunner and a -1 Falco.