Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

[Deleted member]

#4665

Ouch. That's embarrassing.

None of those tournaments are supermajors.

Mr. R and MKLeo have legit Cloud secondaries, so lol

 

[Bowserboy3]

I'm happy with the amount of votes now. Just an extra day or so than planned can make a good difference.

UPDATING

i'll say slowly again...

 

[Bowserboy3]

UPDATED

IMPORTANT NOTE: The amount of votes has been lowered from 5 votes to 3 votes per voter.

Any votes after the 3rd will just be omitted (for example, last time there was a post with 6 votes; the 6th vote was just ignored. I'll be using this basis for if I see more than 3 votes, so please be aware).

And for those interested, I imagine that after 5 rounds of this kind of voting (maybe even less if things start to become really stable), we can start lock the list and move onto the next voting round, which would be focusing on individual tiers.

Spoiler: Rules

• You have 3 votes to play with. +1 and/or -1 up to 3 different characters.
• Characters are not ranked within tiers at this point. You are voting to establish their tiering position.
• Remember, it takes +/-3 to move a character 1 tier, and +/-10 to move them 2 tiers. No character can move more than 2 tiers during each phase.
• Please vote on the list at the time of voting. While you can vote based on what you like, things such as "X character will probably get votes later so I'm down voting now etc" isn't the best way to do it.
• and can be joined together to count as one vote if you vote for one or the other. However, you can still vote on them individually if you so desire.

An example vote:

+1
+1
-1

Spoiler: Current List - 4.11

Version 4.11 - Characters not ranked within tiers.

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My current votes:
+1
+1
-1

I might change Bowser Jr later. I'm not fully convinced I want to see tier 7 disappear yet. The other two I feel just deserve to be a tier higher. Lucario could be subject to change. Olimar is not.

 

[Deleted member]

+
-
-

Mostly trying to get Shulk into tier 4. His results are on par with some here.

 

[Wintermelon43]

+
-
-(Low tier has more than one character)

 

[Kirby Dragons]

+
+
+

 

[Y2Kay]

+
+
-

 

[MarioManTAW]

-
+
+ (Edited)

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

+1 To all the people who downvoted her in the previous rounds: Why? In my eyes she fits perfectly in tier 3, as she has:

• really good rep with five quite notable players (Samsora, SlayerZ, Ling Ling, Kie, Umeki) doing wonders for her meta,
• an extremely potent theory, with floating being very versatile for safe approaches and insane combos and chases, and
• an amazing moveset, with notable moves of jab, D-tilt, U-smash, three throws, all aerials, and three specials.

Sure, her air speed might be somewhat harmful to her potent theory and she has an awful matchup against Meta Knight (and even so, Samsora managed to outplay Abadango most of the time in their sets), but that's not nearly enough to outweigh her amazing strengths...I really hate that I have to use a vote on this again, she deserved to move up twice now...
Misinformed people are still ignorant and not wanting her to move up for some reason, so changing vote to:
+1 Tier 7.

+1 Dabuz has been relying on him more and more recently, using him in matchups that his best-in-the-world Rosalina can't beat. Shuton has been doing fantastic in Japanese tournaments, dominantly winning a few and placing really high in others, and placing 4th in the Japan Power Rankings. Myran and Angbad are still doing pretty well. And he has an insane theory, with tons of versatility and some moves with plain ridiculous frame data. Does he not deserve tier 3?

+1 Tier 7, and he deserves to be above and not below because he actually has okay results recently.
-1 Tier 7, and while I think he should move up and not down, I'd rather not counteract the sudden downward trend that has popped up.

EDIT: Changed Peach upvote to Charizard upvote andFalco upvote to downvote.

 

[Deleted member]

+1 To all the people who downvoted her in the previous rounds: Why? In my eyes she fits perfectly in tier 3, as she has:

• really good rep with five extremely notable players (Samsora, SlayerZ, Ling Ling, Kie, Umeki) doing wonders for her meta,
• an extremely potent theory, with floating being extremely versatile for safe approaches and insane combos and chases, and
• an amazing moveset, with notable moves of jab, D-tilt, U-smash, three throws, all aerials, and three specials.

Sure, her air speed might be somewhat harmful to her potent theory and she has an awful matchup against Meta Knight (and even so, Samsora managed to outplay Abadango most of the time in their sets), but that's not nearly enough to outweigh her amazing strengths...I really hate that I have to use a vote on this again, she deserved to move up twice by now...

+1 Dabuz has been relying on him more and more recently, using him in matchups that his best-in-the-world Rosalina can't beat. Shuton has been doing fantastic in Japanese tournaments, dominantly winning a few and placing really high in others, and placing 4th in the Japan Power Rankings. Myran and Angbad are still doing pretty well. And he has an insane theory, with tons of versatility and some moves with plain ridiculous frame data. Does he not deserve tier 3?

+1 Tier 7, and he deserves to be above and not below because he actually has okay results recently.

Abadango isn't even a relevant MK anymore, so I don't know what you're trying to prove there.



Peach loses to all these characters, that's a pretty large chunk of high tier. Having MUs like being disadvantageous isn't a good look either.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

+1(Always with you L1N3R)
-1
Edited

 

[Bowserboy3]

+1(Always with you L1N3R)
-1

Just a reminder, 3 votes per person. You might want to remove one to suit you (otherwise I will be ignoring any vote past the 3rd vote, which in this case would be Palutena).

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You can only have 3 votes, you're going to have to axe one Dee-SmashinBoss

-
-
+

Plz stop overrating characters just because they're the latest trend. Peach will never ever belong in T3. Ever. Far too many losing MUs in high tier. Olimar is just hitting the "oh wait he's a character in this game" phase in NA. He'll drop back down accordingly. Lucas is in the same boat of being overrated because latest trend.

That's the real reason why the high tier range is looking bloated btw. People get hyped up way too fast. Remember when everyone was clambering over how Samus might be like very top of low tier/bottom of mid tier because Westside Johnny was getting results? Ain't happening so much anymore is it?

Also about T7: Falco, Samus, Mii Gunner, Bowser Jr, Dr.Mario all belong there. Kirby, Roy, and Charizard are noticeably better (Palutena should be in that range as well). Ganondorf, Zelda, Jigglypuff, D3 are noticeably worse. Far too many people only look at their favourite character in that range and go "no way they're as bad as those characters I know nothing about".

 

[Deleted member]

+
-
-

Mostly trying to get Shulk into tier 4. His results are on par with some here.

Changing - to -.

 

[TDK]

- / (Not giving up on this, but not going to make a fuss about it)
- (Bottom 5 material right here.)
- (Gutter Trash.)

 

[Bowserboy3]

Olimar is just hitting the "oh wait he's a character in this game" phase in NA. He'll drop back down accordingly.

Just as a friendly reminder, the list is based on the now; the present. Characters might drop off later down the line, but if they are currently doing well, or are doing things more notable than other characters, I recommend you don't use that as a reason to vote them down.

We can't predict the future. Who's to say that characters WILL drop or stay static?

Basically, what I am saying is, it's entirely possible Olimar might drop back down later down the line, but start voting that way when it actually happens please. Right now, he's got more than enough reason to be rising at this current moment in time.

 

[QualityQ]

+0 -1
+1
+1 / countervote

I'm still not convinced about Lucario's theory at this point. Yes, Lucario has access to a lot of powerful tools at high %, but how many opponents are actually going to let you get to such a high % without killing you? There's a number of characters that can just finish him off, or inhibit his approach. Plus a huge vulnerability to trumping; his up special is really bad without a ledge snap. Almost any character can punish that lag.

I can understand why people want pikachu to move down, but when you compare him to other characters to tier 3 it doesn't make sense for him to be there. Maybe bottom of tier 2?

 

[Ethan7]

-(counter-vote) why did we move it down just to move it back up the next round?
-counter-vote
The list is looking pretty good to me now. I will save my last vote.

 

[Zerp]

+1 Let me make it clear that I'm voting him up because I've always believed him to be roughly as good as I think he is now, nothing recent has changed my stance on him.
+1 Might change to -1 depending on if either direction gets any traction going, I just want Tier 7 gone.
-1

I'll save my last vote for a while.
EDIT: +1 I'd rather he not move back down.

 

[Phuckyew]

-What I see here is a zoning character with no way to effectively pressure shields, a lackluster grabgame, a gimpable (although overall decent) recovery, and generally laggy attacks. Not tier 8 but hes out of place in tier 6 as well.

+How did he end up down here?

+Talked about this earlier, good showings as of late and versatility, I believe she deserves tier 3.

I'll go into more detail later but I have to go to class now.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Something worth discussing: Where does high tier end? If a character is top 25, is that character high tier? If you answer "No" to that question, then you might want to consider downvoting someone from tier 3.

It seems a bit much to me to have 25-26 characters in top and high tier, but perhaps the game is balanced enough to justify that? If both Peach and Olimar move up, then we'll have 17 characters in high tier. Good thing we split high tier in two (and that's assuming we count the Pits as one character)!

Intuitively it seems somewhat strange that a top 26 character might be high tier, but perhaps there truly are that many great characters in Smash 4? Another option is that some characters are being overrated for some reason.

 

[TDK]

in my personal tier list, I have 21 characters in top and high tier. So for me, Mid tier starts at 22.

 

[Bigbomb2]

+ As of current meta (where a lot aren't entirely sure how to fight him), he's pretty solid overall despite some unfortunate quirks.
+ Can't say I feel she's quite tier 6. 5 seems like a solid spot for her. Results seem rare for her though
+ Still really solid despite falling off a bit

I dunno, except for the random 7 tier this doesn't look all that bad

 

[Mega-Spider]

+ (I don't think he's quite Tier 6 material, but that's my optimistic side talking. I'd say Kirbster is low Tier 5 personally)
- (Anyone with common sense should be able to avoid Pac's telegraphed shield break set ups. Not to mention, his KO'ing ability and grab suck)

 

[Frihetsanka]

+ (I don't think he's quite Tier 6 material, but that's my optimistic side talking. I'd say Kirbster is low Tier 5 personally)

I'd argue that his MU chart has too many flaws to be tier 5. Low-mid tier at best, I'd say. He does have some pretty good matchups against some top tiers and high tiers though. Furthermore, his recent results are pretty lackluster.

 

[Mega-Spider]

I'd argue that his MU chart has too many flaws to be tier 5. Low-mid tier at best, I'd say. He does have some pretty good matchups against some top tiers and high tiers though. Furthermore, his recent results are pretty lackluster.

I'm not disagreeing with you on that. It's why I said it's my optimistic side talking. Besides, Kirby's results could be better if Kirby players actually tried to improve, but that's a discussion for another day.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Votes thus far (I tried a few rounds with just numbers, and now I'll go back to unofficial tier names and compare the results, if any):

Tier 1 (Top): [0]
Tier 2 (Upper High): [0][-1]
Moving up to tier 2 (Upper High): [4]
Tier 3 (Lower High): [1][0][-2]
Tier 4 (High-Mid): [2][1][0]
Tier 5 (Mid): [0][-1]
Tier 6 (Low-Mid): [1][0][-1][-2]
Tier 7 (Low): [∞]
Moving down to tier 8 (Bottom): [-3]
Tier 8 (Bottom): [0]

 

[Samuelwisebaggins]

-
-
-

 

[Y2Kay]

Olimar doesn't impress me much, if at all. Besides Dabuz's CP's with him and Shuton's rare appearances he doesn't seem that good. Dabuz himself even thinks he's a low tier character.

 

[Deleted member]

Olimar doesn't impress me much, if at all. Besides Dabuz's CP's with him and Shuton's rare appearances he doesn't seem that good. Dabuz himself even thinks he's a low tier character.

Way to underplay Olimar.

Shuton is ranked top 5 in Japan, which is no small feat. and afaik Dabuz comains Olimar and his opinion on him tends to fluctuate. Did you watch the interview he had after Aftershock?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Just as a friendly reminder, the list is based on the now; the present. Characters might drop off later down the line, but if they are currently doing well, or are doing things more notable than other characters, I recommend you don't use that as a reason to vote them down.

We can't predict the future. Who's to say that characters WILL drop or stay static?

Basically, what I am saying is, it's entirely possible Olimar might drop back down later down the line, but start voting that way when it actually happens please. Right now, he's got more than enough reason to be rising at this current moment in time.

The present needs to be more than a 2-4 week window, otherwise you'll have characters pinballing all over the place.

"Present" is more like "last 3 months or so". Having the window be smaller is that is why we constantly have characters being shoved higher and higher based off of a 2 week spike and then not coming down when that spike dies (Samus). Its getting silly. Its causing inflation of character value because people aren't willing to wait for a true consistent present: they want their character in upper high tier or w/e you want to call it and they want it now.

In the present, there is nothing seriously sustained to suggest Olimar is that high. Have Dabuz consistently pull out Olimar in large tournaments (not just specific counter picks or "welp Rosalina isn't working today I guess I'll give it a shot") for a 3 month window and we'll have room to talk.

 

[Bowserboy3]

The present needs to be more than a 2-4 week window, otherwise you'll have characters pinballing all over the place.

"Present" is more like "last 3 months or so". Having the window be smaller is that is why we constantly have characters being shoved higher and higher based off of a 2 week spike and then not coming down when that spike dies (Samus). Its getting silly. Its causing inflation of character value because people aren't willing to wait for a true consistent present: they want their character in upper high tier or w/e you want to call it and they want it now.

In the present, there is nothing seriously sustained to suggest Olimar is that high. Have Dabuz consistently pull out Olimar in large tournaments (not just specific counter picks or "welp Rosalina isn't working today I guess I'll give it a shot") for a 3 month window and we'll have room to talk.

Olimar has been doing things for people such as the likes of Dabuz and Shutton for much longer than 3 months now. Whether you see "consistently pull[ing] out Olimar" as the most important thing or not, but he's still been able to compete consistently when pulled out by Dabuz, and has worked wonders for Shutton (not that this matters to you, I know for some reason you ignore the Japanese metagame and results).

The fact of the matter is, Olimar still gets used at the highest of top level play more than a lot of characters around AND above him. So what if "oh he's a character in this game"? Even if he is just that, he's done arguably better things recently than than Pit, Yoshi, R.O.B., Ness, Falcon, and Ike, just to name a few). That alone is of notable merit.

But hey, I have my own opinion, you have yours. I'm not telling you who to vote for.

Olimar isn't a clear cut anything (not clearly top tier like Sheik, and not clearly bottom tier like Puff, for example), so your opinion is just as subjective as everybody else's. Just as you have your opinions (such as not valuing the Japanese metagame), others are going to have different opinions (such as valuing recent happenings).

Whatever happens, the majority vote will win out in the end anyway, so all's fair in either side.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Apparently I need to explain myself more because people are still living in the past, so here I go:

For Peach, if she "loses so many high tier matchups", then why has she gotten high places at so many tournaments recently? I view her as a slightly worse Ryu, with somewhat less room to grow but more to show for herself now.

As for Olimar, if he's only tier 4, then why does Japan's fourth best player use him (with their top three using tier 1 or 2 characters), and why has Dabuz been able to achieve big success with him when his best-in-the-world Rosalina fails?

Compare their results to those of characters like Ness, Dark Pit, and Lucina who have done considerably less yet somehow reside in tier 3, and you should find yourself confused.

Also, high tier is not "bloated". If anything, high tier is too small for how many viable characters there have been proven to be.

 

[Deleted member]

What high placements has Peach gotten recently?

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

What high placements has Peach gotten recently?

Since you seem to so kindly refer us to Das Koopa's results thread when we're misinformed about results, I'll do the same to you:

https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/#post-21234528

Notice how she's top 20 at worst in all ways of ordering, and even top 15 in some. Would this not lead to a solid tier 3 placement?

Samsora has double-eliminated Ally (they both SD'ed in the last game, don't give me that excuse) and had close games with her worst matchup by a top 15 player in the world (doesn't matter if he's a "relevant Meta Knight", he used to be, and he's an amazing player anyway) at Midwest Mayhem. Ling Ling got top 64 in several tournaments that are very notable in the US, SlayerZ has gotten top 48 whenever he does play, Umeki has coined most Peach tech and still does quite well in tournaments around the world, and Kie is doing even better in Japan now and of course made an insane crews comeback at TBH6. Her results are far from lacking!

 

[Dusk Pit]

"B--b-but results" doesn't cut it. Players have too much influence over results at this stage of the meta for it to be the main consideration. That's how you get tier lists where characters end up shuffling all over the place. If you want something accurate and lasting, you have to do some analysis.

If only more people understood this...

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

If we want to keep 8 tiers (and yes, emptying tier 7 is still basically saying that we have 8 tiers with 1 tier serving as placeholder), we need to desaturate the top tiers so that tier 7 isn't considered as much of a demotion for those tier 6ers.

Countervote +1 (changed from-1)
-1
-1

 

[Y2Kay]

Apparently I need to explain myself more because people are still living in the past, so here I go:

For Peach, if she "loses so many high tier matchups", then why has she gotten high places at so many tournaments recently? I view her as a slightly worse Ryu, with somewhat less room to grow but more to show for herself now.

As for Olimar, if he's only tier 4, then why does Japan's fourth best player use him (with their top three using tier 1 or 2 characters), and why has Dabuz been able to achieve big success with him when his best-in-the-world Rosalina fails?

Compare their results to those of characters like Ness, Dark Pit, and Lucina who have done considerably less yet somehow reside in tier 3, and you should find yourself confused.

Also, high tier is not "bloated". If anything, high tier is too small for how many viable characters there have been proven to be.

Using Dark Pit's and Lucina's lack of results to support your Olimar opinion is misleading, and you know it.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Using Dark Pit's and Lucina's lack of results to support your Olimar opinion is misleading, and you know it.

Okay, and they're staying in tier 3 because of their "comparable theory to their source character". You know who else has a theory that good if not better, on top of having results to back it up? Peach, with a fantastic overall moveset that allows for great potential, chasing, comboing, and killing; and Olimar, with amazing versatility, great zoning, comboing, and killing, and some great moves with plain ridiculous frame data (U-air, neutral-B, and side-B)

And I honestly think Dark Pit and Lucina are on the border of being in tier 4 (Ness is down there, too). Regardless, no matter who the characters are, if they're all worse than Peach, then Peach should be in the same tier as if not higher than them.

 

[QualityQ]

I'll leave to other people since I haven't much experience with that character.

Back to :

- (Anyone with common sense should be able to avoid Pac's telegraphed shield break set ups. Not to mention, his KO'ing ability and grab suck)

I would argue that not all of them are obvious. Tons of good Pac-man videos on that account btw.

His KOing ability is pretty bad but he has a variety of ledge traps and other setups that can get the job done. Dtilt and upsmash aren't that bad either.

The interesting thing about pac's grab is that it's not as required for him as other characters. A lot of characters look for a grab to start a combo, but pac's looking more for projectiles, hydrant and trampoline.

Other positives to note:

+Insanely high value projectile
+Good recovery with hitbox (stealing trampoline is about as difficult as sniping villager balloons, imo)
+side-B ledge grabbles at correct distances
+hydrant jump and hydrant dash (basically a well-timed dash w/ hydrant goes twice as fast. It's kinda bonkers)
+very diverse options

I think that's enough to bring him to 4.