Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

[Dusk Pit]

+
+
-

 

[MarioManTAW]

-
+
+ (Edited)

Replaced my + with a + countervote.

 

[TDK]

I would argue that not all of them are obvious. Tons of good Pac-man videos on that account btw.

I'd argue quite a lot of those are extremely situational:
- The one that relies on Pikachu using Quick Attack from the ledge at you
- The one that relies on Sonic's Back Throw
- The one that relies on someone throwing a bell at you

And a few more.

 

[Zerp]

+1 Let me make it clear that I'm voting him up because I've always believed him to be roughly as good as I think he is now, nothing recent has changed my stance on him.
+1 Might change to -1 depending on if either direction gets any traction going, I just want Tier 7 gone.

I'll save my last vote for a while.
EDIT: +1 I'd rather he not move back down.

Added a +1 to this.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I'm pretty happy with the tier list overall, but there are a few characters I think could move a bit.

-1 (I could see Pikachu as a tier 2 character, but Pikachu's recent results are worse than Mr. Game & Watch's.)
-1 (The Pits are good characters and could potentially be at the bottom of high tier, but right now they seem more like top of high-mid tier to me.)
+1 (Counter-vote. I don't think Mii Gunner belongs in tier 7.)
Edit:
+1 (Counter-vote. Falco isn't very good, but I don't think he's tier 8.)

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

And as if he needed to, Samsora just further proved that Peach deserves tier 3, beating Dabuz as well as outplacing several other notable players in his impressive 5th place turnout with Peach at KTAR XIX. Seriously, what doesn't Peach have to be tier 3 at this point?

 

[Bowserboy3]

And as if he needed to, Samsora just further proved that Peach deserves tier 3, beating Dabuz as well as outplacing several other notable players in his impressive 5th place turnout with Peach at KTAR XIX. Seriously, what doesn't Peach have at this point?

With all due respect, don't over egg your pudding. MU's are still sketchy as a whole, so there's that.

However, I do agree with you that Peach could slot in quite nicely in tier 3, if only based on results alone.

 

[Munomario777]

+1Don't see how he's meant to be in the same tier as the Pits / a few other Tier 3s, or significantly below most of the characters in Tier 2. I don't really think that the lack-of-recent-representation argument holds a lot of water in this particular case. The point of results, the way I see it, is to prove a character's theoretical strengths, which I think Pikachu's previous match results have done. We've seen his combo game, solid tools in neutral, recovery, kill confirms, mobility, and all that stuff in action, and their effectiveness at winning matches and gaining an advantage. Furthermore, like Ryu (who is in Tier 2, I may add), I suspect that Pikachu's lack of representation is due to a relatively high learning curve, with things like Quick Attack, jab-locking, and RAR Thunder being tricky to master and an important part of optimal Pika play.

Anyway, now to address another important issue.

+1 -1Why does Falco have his own tier lol.

I'll save my last vote for now.

 

[TDK]

Why are people voting Falco up? I want him to not have his own tier as much as the next guy but I think he's absolute trash and should be bottom tier, so I'd like your reasoning to see if there's something I'm missing.

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

Why are people voting Falco up? I want him to not have his own tier as much as the next guy but I think he's absolute trash and should be bottom tier, so I'd like your reasoning to see if there's something I'm missing.

Falco has some things going for him. Solid recovery, great combo game, an insanely good backair, a projectile that is more usable than Din's Fire or Gordo. Barring his slightly worse horizontal mobility, he's almost strictly superior to Zelda in particular in a lot of ways. Comparing him to Melee falco or even Brawl falco gets you a character that feels heavily neutered, but this iteration has some things going for him.

That said, I still think that he needs more people to join him on Tier 7 than the other way around. Bowser Jr., Wii Fit Trainer, Charizard, and Mii Gunner are all prime candidates for bottom 10, though I'd personally advocate for Mii Gunner to stay higher.

Changing my countervote on to -1

 

[TDK]

a projectile that is more usable than Din's Fire or Gordo.

This means nothing when both those projectiles range from laughable to the worst move in the game?

 

[Routa]

Downvoting a character just for the sake of having more in low/bottom tier is just wrong.
As for Gunner I have yet to hear any reason why he should be lower in the tier list. I'm pretty sure that I did reason before why I think that he deserves to be in the same tier as Wario and Palutena or even higher (I might have not explained... If I have not... well tell mii). I guess the results is the only thing keeping him down.

As for Falco... Well mobility and neutral are the things you need to be a good character. And as far as I know... Falco lacks in both apartment. I am aware his Bair and his combos, but when you have hard time in neutral... well... You will have a bad time. And his recovery is not that great. His air speed is just sad and recovery moves are just... way too predictable. Unlike some characters with projectiles he is unable to antiedgeguard. Only really notable thing about him is his reflector which is the fastest one in game. In majority of the MUs this does not matter due to majority of the projectile users are able to work around it.

Now to my votes:
+
-
-

 

[Frihetsanka]

Right now, assuming I've counted correctly, Pikachu is the only character moving (in this case, up). I guess we're almost done with this phase now?

 

[Zerp]

+1 Let me make it clear that I'm voting him up because I've always believed him to be roughly as good as I think he is now, nothing recent has changed my stance on him.
+1 Might change to -1 depending on if either direction gets any traction going, I just want Tier 7 gone.
-1
I'll save my last vote for a while.
EDIT: +1 I'd rather he not move back down.

Changed my Falco vote from a + to a -, although, I doubt he's going to move either way at this rate...

 

[Munomario777]

Changing my +1 to -1.

 

[Ethan7]

My third vote:
-counter-vote

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You can only have 3 votes, you're going to have to axe one @Dee-SmashinBoss

-
-

Plz stop overrating characters just because they're the latest trend. Peach will never ever belong in T3. Ever. Far too many losing MUs in high tier. Olimar is just hitting the "oh wait he's a character in this game" phase in NA. He'll drop back down accordingly. Lucas is in the same boat of being overrated because latest trend.

That's the real reason why the high tier range is looking bloated btw. People get hyped up way too fast. Remember when everyone was clambering over how Samus might be like very top of low tier/bottom of mid tier because Westside Johnny was getting results? Ain't happening so much anymore is it?

Also about T7: Falco, Samus, Mii Gunner, Bowser Jr, Dr.Mario all belong there. Kirby, Roy, and Charizard are noticeably better (Palutena should be in that range as well). Ganondorf, Zelda, Jigglypuff, D3 are noticeably worse. Far too many people only look at their favourite character in that range and go "no way they're as bad as those characters I know nothing about".

Adding + as T7 should exist and should have more characters in it

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

Since I'm being challenged in my idea that the tier list should be more evenly distributed, here's my ideas as to what it should look like with 8 tiers.

Spoiler: My adjusted list

Characters not ranked within tiers.

1:
2: ()
3:()
4:()
5: ()
6: ()
7:()
8:

I argue Mewtwo and ZSS aren't totally top tier, since they suffer in numerous matchups and have hit a plateau in results with nairo/marss and aba/wadi/rich brown and others. The other top tiers have either bulletproof theory or results going for them, though a case could be made for Rosa being placed a tier lower.

Pikachu is admittedly right on the border. Since his confirms are so specific and often rely on something like a missed tech/walltech, and his results/players are near nonexistant, I place him in tier 3.

The Pits are in a similar place, floating between 3 and 4 for me.

In an 8 tier system, Link, ROB, and Ike in particular feel more like high low-tiers than low high-tiers. Cases could be made for particularly shulk and/or bowser to flip between 4 and 5 but I won't make that judgement.

Similarly, wario and pac man feel like middling low tiers. Wario for his lukewarm matchup spread, and Pac for his very volatile (he can absolutely crush certain characters like Mac) but ultimately poor spread.

The four I moved down to tier 7 are almost uncontestedly in consideration for bottom 10, possibly with Gunner joining them and Doc/WFT leaving. They really aren't on the same level as Roy, Kirby, Samus, and the new Tier 6 characters.

Should we instead get rid of a tier, I would be satisfied pushing everyone in tier 8 back up a notch, but leaving a massive space in the tiering is unacceptable.

 

[MarioManTAW]

I think Tier 7 should stay, but with and possibly joining .

 

[Browny]

1:
2: ()
3:()
4:()
5: ()
6: ()
7:()
8:

I argue Mewtwo and ZSS aren't totally top tier, since they suffer in numerous matchups and have hit a plateau in results with nairo/marss and aba/wadi/rich brown and others. The other top tiers have either bulletproof theory or results going for them, though a case could be made for Rosa being placed a tier lower.

Which top tiers haven't hit a 'plateau'?

Sheik, Fox, Sonic and Cloud haven't performed as well as Abadango did since pound. The only characters with a solid, definable lead in results over Mewtwo and ZSS are Diddy and Mario.

Bayonetta and Rosalina continue to do well with Bayo showing considerably more potentia;

IMO it would look like this

1:
2:
3:etc

There is just no way Fox is above Mewtwo since if you removed larry lurr and abadango as potential outliers, richbrown and wadi are doing way more than the next best fox mains.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I think Tier 7 should stay, but with and possibly joining .

The others I can see, but not Samus. She just has too much going for her both in results and theory, including a 2-hit death combo with rage on floaties that IcyMist was able to land twice on Dabuz (the Olimar and the Rosalina).

 

[TDK]

The others I can see, but not Samus. She just has too much going for her both in results and theory, including a 2-hit death combo with rage on floaties that IcyNinja was able to land twice on Dabuz (the Olimar and the Rosalina).

IcyMist.

IceNinja plays

 

[Bowserboy3]

IcyNinja must be some secret lovechild of IcyMist and IceNinja...

---

I'd ideally like to see a few more votes, but I'll probably update tomorrow anyway because I'll likely be a bit busy in the coming week, and might forget (Sun/Moon - isn't it great being in Europe and getting them late?).

I was going to change one of my votes to a Peach upvote, but there's not much point this round. I feel Peach deserves to go up a tier at this point. It's not just random things she's doing now; she's getting pretty consistent results at all levels of play. While people can argue all day about MU's being bad, if a character is getting consistent results, their MU's, or roadblocks, can't be that bad, otherwise they'd not be able to get that far on a consistent basis. I'd say that if Peach is getting these much more consistent results, it could be that we (as a collective term) are blowing up her losing MU's a fair bit. Some I can understand; Marth, Corrin and Cloud can legitimately give Peach some issues due to their swords, but other MU's, like Fox, Mario, Sonic, Rosalina etc, may not be as bad as we make them out to be.

While I also believe Olimar should go up to tier 3, I can at least somewhat sympathise with people who don't, as Olimar still isn't super active in any level of play; his top level results are good overall, but he's still not getting consistent results everywhere else.

But Peach I feel should really be going up now. She's done enough overall to prove her place in there.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

IcyMist.

IceNinja plays

I always get those two confused. They both involve ice and something mysterious, and they both play underplayed characters, you can see how I would forget. xD

 

[QualityQ]

I edited in a -1 to facilitate a bit of movement. Charizard isn't bad, but I think a number of tier 6's could move to 7.

I wouldn't be surprised if the massive amount of countervotes this round slowed voting down. It's discouraging to vote if the next person will simply negate it, and it tends to narrow discussion to very specific characters ( come to mind) rather than looking at all the characters. Although countervoting is just so effective it's hard to solve this problem.

It's also much easier to say a character is good then to say a character is bad. This is why some group tier lists use a weighted system of +1's, where each character gets a certain amount of +1's and tiers are determined afterward by amount of +1's.

I've personally been tempted to wait until the last second to vote to prevent countervotes, but this is not a good technique to facilitate discussion.

Maybe we could improve discussion by agreeing to not vote on characters we voted on in a previous round? That might prevent stale discussions.

 

[Zerp]

Now that I'm thinking of it, I probably should have asked this earlier, but, Bowserboy3 sorry to pester you, but what actually happens when a Tier becomes empty? Does the Tier cease to exist like I'm hoping it does, or does it just keep existing but as a empty gap like suggested? Edit: Is there an option in the bonus round to simply get rid of the Tier entirely? Sorry if I'm being annoying.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Now that I'm thinking of it, I probably should have asked this earlier, but, Bowserboy3 sorry to pester you, but what actually happens when a Tier becomes empty? Does the Tier cease to exist like I'm hoping it does, or does it just keep existing but as a empty gap like suggested?

We'll just have an empty tier for a while.

In regards to people worrying about tiers being empty, don't worry about it. If for example, in a few more rounds when we lock the tiers, we have an empty tier, or a tier with just one character in for example, I'll do a bonus round beforehand.

 

[Egghead]

+1
+1

Kirby has a very good combo game and has a small hurt box, also, back air can kill pretty well. Also 6 jumps allows for insane aerial pressure.
Wii fit is pretty good, you can go for nair's when desperately behind, the sun is very useful honestly, the only thing she lacks is a kill move.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

+1 To all the people who downvoted her in the previous rounds: Why? In my eyes she fits perfectly in tier 3, as she has:

• really good rep with five quite notable players (Samsora, SlayerZ, Ling Ling, Kie, Umeki) doing wonders for her meta,
• an extremely potent theory, with floating being very versatile for safe approaches and insane combos and chases, and
• an amazing moveset, with notable moves of jab, D-tilt, U-smash, three throws, all aerials, and three specials.

Sure, her air speed might be somewhat harmful to her potent theory and she has an awful matchup against Meta Knight (and even so, Samsora managed to outplay Abadango most of the time in their sets), but that's not nearly enough to outweigh her amazing strengths...I really hate that I have to use a vote on this again, she deserved to move up twice now...
Misinformed people are still ignorant and not wanting her to move up for some reason, so changing vote to:
+1 Tier 7.

+1 Dabuz has been relying on him more and more recently, using him in matchups that his best-in-the-world Rosalina can't beat. Shuton has been doing fantastic in Japanese tournaments, dominantly winning a few and placing really high in others, and placing 4th in the Japan Power Rankings. Myran and Angbad are still doing pretty well. And he has an insane theory, with tons of versatility and some moves with plain ridiculous frame data. Does he not deserve tier 3?

+1 Tier 7, and he deserves to be above and not below because he actually has okay results recently.
-1 Tier 7, and while I think he should move up and not down, I'd rather not counteract the sudden downward trend that has popped up.

EDIT: Changed Peach upvote to Charizard upvote and Falco upvote to downvote.

Changed +1 (for which I'm not getting support, for some reason) to +1 , and +1 to -1 .

 

[Frihetsanka]

Is there an option in the bonus round to simply get rid of the Tier entirely?

Yes, although I don't think we should. My main issue with 7 tiers is that we might have to skip Bottom tier, Low tier, or end up with wacky tier names. Also, I think the difference between the characters currently in tier 6 and at least some of the characters currently in tier 8 are pretty significant, so having a tier between would be a good idea. I could see some characters in tier 8 moving up, and maybe a character or two in tier 6 moving down to tier 7.

With 8 tiers:
Top
Upper High
Lower High
High-Mid
Mid
Low-Mid
Low
Bottom

With 7 tiers, alternative 1:
Top
Upper High
Lower High
High-Mid
Mid
Low-Mid
Low

With 7 tiers, alternative 2:
Top
Upper High
Lower High
High-Mid
Mid
Low-Mid
Bottom

With 7 tiers, alternative 3:
Top
Upper High
Lower High
High-Mid
Mid
Low
Bottom

Of course, that would mean that some characters in tier 6 (which I currently regard as low-mid, but which would be Low in alternative 3) should move up. I think our best course of action, right now, is to simply get more characters into tier 7. Maybe get Zelda and/or King Dedede up, maybe get Bowser Jr. and/or Charizard down, and keep Falco in tier 7? That way we could get a tier between 6 and 8 and it'd be easier naming tiers too.

Alternative 1 works decently, but the issue is that many people like the term "bottom tier". We actually used to have 7 tiers, then people started voting characters like Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Brawler and Swordfighter down, which created an 8th tier. A lot of people seem to want 8 tiers, or else they wouldn't have downvoted those characters when we had 7 tiers.

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

Op needs to hurry up and update so a new round of voting can begin.

Which top tiers haven't hit a 'plateau'?

Sheik, Fox, Sonic and Cloud haven't performed as well as Abadango did since pound. The only characters with a solid, definable lead in results over Mewtwo and ZSS are Diddy and Mario.

Bayonetta and Rosalina continue to do well with Bayo showing considerably more potentia;

IMO it would look like this

1:
2:
3:etc

There is just no way Fox is above Mewtwo since if you removed larry lurr and abadango as potential outliers, richbrown and wadi are doing way more than the next best fox mains.

Actually inaccurate. October results were just posted on the Character Competitive Impressions thread and fox's results are sixth best. Trailing behind him are mario, then Mewtwo and ZSS, followed by Ryu and Rosa. Going back a few months shows similar trends.

I still stand by Rosa's theory, even if Dabuz relies on Oli and Kirihara's the only other Rosalina pulling weight, but mewtwo and zss just aren't seeing as much top 8 and finals play as they used to. They both should be suspect to vacating top tier.

Giving Falco a +1 back, I don't know why we can't agree on an 8 tier format.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

+

 

[Bowserboy3]

UPDATED

Easy round, as only one character moved this time.

If we get about this much movement in the next two rounds or so, I might just lock it and move onto the individual tiers. There's not much point dragging something on if movement is slow.

Spoiler: Rules

• You have 3 votes to play with. +1 and/or -1 up to 3 different characters.
• Characters are not ranked within tiers at this point. You are voting to establish their tiering position.
• Remember, it takes +/-3 to move a character 1 tier, and +/-10 to move them 2 tiers. No character can move more than 2 tiers during each phase.
• Please vote on the list at the time of voting. While you can vote based on what you like, things such as "X character will probably get votes later so I'm down voting now etc" isn't the best way to do it.
• and can be joined together to count as one vote if you vote for one or the other. However, you can still vote on them individually if you so desire.

An example vote:

+1
+1
-1

Spoiler: Current List - 4.12

Version 4.12 - Characters not ranked within tiers.

1:
2:
3:
4:
5:
6:
7:
8:

+1
-1
-1 (countervote: Bayonetta doesn't need her own tier lol)

I just want to explain my Mii Gunner downvote...

For me, the Mii's really don't get used enough to warrant being ranked higher than a fair bunch of the cast. I respect that Mii Gunner is arguably the best default Mii, but they are collectively almost never used, much less than almost all the 6 below her in her current tier. That, and I don't want Falco in a tier on his own really. I'd say perhaps Bowser Jr could go down there with them... maaaaaybe Roy, I'm not sure, but I feel Mii Gunner more than deserves to be in there.

And don't get me wrong, I love Mii Gunner (my favourite Mii variant), and I want to stress that I don't think she's totally bottom tier, but I do feel that she's the first character that deserves to go down there with Falco.

Might change my 3rd vote later (looking at you Olimar).

 

[Sleek Media]

+
+
-

Pika a tier below Mega makes my head hurt. Still putting in that "Bayo #1" vote until have their own tier.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Welp, that didn't take long for me to find a use for my 3rd vote...

Added a downvote as a countervote.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Wow wow wow, hang on a moment...

+
+
-

Pika a tier below Mega makes my head hurt. Still putting in that "Bayo #1" vote until have their own tier.

Pikachu is already in the same tier as Mega Man. The list was updated a short time ago. Are you a little late posting and thought it was last round?

 

[Frihetsanka]

The tier list looks really good to me overall, though I'd still like to see a few changes.

Das Koopa's results thread has been updated. If we look at top 16 weighted, we'll see some interesting things: Captain Falcon at #14, Corrin #15, R.O.B #16, Ness #17, Peach #19, Pikachu #20, Olimar #27, Lucas #30, Pit #37.

If we look at top 8 weighted, Ness is #15, Captain Falcon #16, Pikachu #17, R.O.B. #18, Corrin #19, Olimar #22, Peach #23, Lucas #32, Pit #34/35,

-1 (Lucas is a pretty good character, but his results have been lacking and his theory doesn't make him seem like a high tier character.
-1 (I'm not convinced Pit is a high tier character. His overall results are lacking and his theory seems weaker than other tier 3 characters.)
+1 (King Dedede currently has 16 points in top 16 and 8 points in top 8, making his results significantly better than other bottom tiers. Looking at this collection of MU chart data, his MU charts are bad, but closer to Charizard than Zelda, Jigglypuff, and Ganondorf, and presumably 1111 Swordsfighter and Brawler.)

I might change some of my votes later.

Edit: It doesn't seem like I'll be getting any help with getting Lucas out of high tier and King Dedede up to low tier this round, so I'll counter-vote instead.
+1 (Going by results alone, Little Mac should be high-mid tier. I don't believe that we should go by results alone, so I'd put him in mid tier. He has some issues that prevents him from being high-mid, but I don't think he's low-mid.)
+1 (We don't have too much to go on, though the Gunner mains seem to think Gunner deserves to be higher, and the games I've seen make Gunner seem like a low-mid tier character rather than a low tier character. I'm not sure about this vote though.)
-1 (Olimar might very well be a high tier character. I think we should wait a month or two before deciding, though. I'm worried we'll send too many characters into high tier that don't actually belong in there, such as Lucas. Olimar should be high-mid for now, and once we get more info we'll move him up, assuming the results support it. Is Olimar a good character or a great character? I'm currently leaning towards "good", but we'll see.)

 

[Frihetsanka]

Votes thus far (tier names are unofficial):

Tier 1 (Top): [0]
Tier 2 (Upper High): [0][-1]
Tier 3 (Lower High): [0][-1][-2]
Moving up to tier 3 (Lower High): [4]
Tier 4 (High-Mid): [1][0]
Tier 5 (Mid): [0][-1]
Tier 6 (Low-Mid): [0][-1][-2]
Moving down to tier 7 (Low): [-3]
Tier 7 (Low): [-1]
Tier 8 (Bottom): [0]

 

[Wintermelon43]

-
-
-

 

[Frihetsanka]

You only get 3 votes.