Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

[Frihetsanka]

I changed two of my votes. I no longer upvote Ness or Captain Falcon (the former because he likely won't move up this round, and the latter because he most likely will move up anyway). I added an upvote for Pikachu (he's at -3, so one more upvote and he can stay in high tier!), an upvote for Pit (because Dark Pit is in high tier, so Pit should also be in high tier, although if someone downvotes Dark Pit I'll change my vote), and a downvote each for Dr. Mario (he's at -2) and Samus (-1).

 

[TM Kind]

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[TDK]

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Do you really think Sheik and Bayonetta aren't among the best characters in the game?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Do you really think Sheik and Bayonetta aren't among the best characters in the game?

Are they good enough to create a tier above the rest of top tier, though?

The Olimar and Meta Knight downvotes make little sense, though. Not that it's likely to matter since I doubt many people would downvote those characters at this point in time.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Just posting this here for reference:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/577588/updated_using_results_since_116_i_made_a_100/

Notice how Pac-Man is above Corrin, Robin, Lucario, Villager, Ryu, Pit, Yoshi, and Ike among others, and almost at the level of Ness, Captain Falcon, and Donkey Kong? He's still showing up, people!

 

[Frihetsanka]

Notice how Pac-Man is above Corrin, Robin, Lucario, Villager, Ryu, Pit, Yoshi, and Ike among others, and almost at the level of Ness, Captain Falcon, and Donkey Kong? He's still showing up, people!

Using those tournaments and that methodology, yes. Olimar is # 13/14, together with Marth. Pikachu is #17. Seems Ryu really struggles using those rules. Overall, I think Das Koopa's system seems to produce more accurate results.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

You being total **** at the game doesn't mean that Palutena is a bad character. Hell, I can say doesn't feel like a low tier yet he's still pretty pants.

This is pretty assuming of you.

And remember the post where I counteracted all your points on Dedede and you swiftly ignored it? Good times.

I disagree with your points, but debating isn't something I came here to do. I'm usually reluctant to even explain my votes.

And to clarify, I think Dedede should stay in his current tier. I'm trying to keep him there.

 

[QualityQ]

I changed two of my votes. I no longer upvote Ness or Captain Falcon (the former because he likely won't move up this round, and the latter because he most likely will move up anyway). I added an upvote for Pikachu (he's at -3, so one more upvote and he can stay in high tier!), an upvote for Pit (because Dark Pit is in high tier, so Pit should also be in high tier, although if someone downvotes Dark Pit I'll change my vote), and a downvote each for Dr. Mario (he's at -2) and Samus (-1).

Changed my +1 to +1, I think there's enough justification for pikachu to stay high, between results and theory. It's a very difficult character to play and ESAM isn't the most consistent player, but he's shown the character can be really good. Also, the "no kill move" idea only applies to top tiers that are too fast for smash attacks, so high-mid seems unnecessary.

Updated my original post to reflect that.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Just posting this here for reference:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/577588/updated_using_results_since_116_i_made_a_100/

Notice how Pac-Man is above Corrin, Robin, Lucario, Villager, Ryu, Pit, Yoshi, and Ike among others, and almost at the level of Ness, Captain Falcon, and Donkey Kong? He's still showing up, people!

This is interesting to say the least.

My thoughts on this:

• is apparently the best character, by a noticeable amount.
• It seems we brush off too much; she's apparently doing overall better than AND .
• Characters from down to are characters that I expected to see.
• That said, is still doing much worse than expected, and I'd say is too.
• is improving rapidly. Maybe it's time we considered him a real high tier character now.
• Indeed, does seem to have done something to get that high up. Still notably absent from the final stages of most national tournaments this year, IIRC, unlike the majority above him.

 

[Frihetsanka]

• is apparently the best character, by a noticeable amount.

• Or is ZeRo the best player? I'm not convinced Diddy Kong is the best character right now (I think Sheik is), but he could be.

• It seems we brush off too much; she's apparently doing overall better than AND .[/quote]It's one of the reasons why I don't want a separate tier for Sheik, Bayonetta and Diddy Kong; they're not vastly superior to Zero Suit Samus. Or Mario. Or Fox, or Mewtwo, or Rosalina & Luma, or Cloud, or Sonic. All those 10 characters seem to be around a similar level (top level) right now. Perhaps one or two of them will have their meta developed to a point where they are obviously superior to the rest, but right now, I think they should all fit in the same tier.
  

• That said, is still doing much worse than expected, and I'd say is too.

  Ryu's results are better when using other tournaments and other rules, but yeah, he might not be a top tier.

• is improving rapidly. Maybe it's time we considered him a real high tier character now.

  I think at the high end of high-mid fits him better.
  

• Indeed, does seem to have done something to get that high up.

  He's, at best, mid tier, I think.

Bowser having 11 points is actually not bad at all. Maybe he's high-mid after all? Who are the best Bowser players?

 

[Bigbomb2]

Bowser having 11 points is actually not bad at all. Maybe he's high-mid after all? Who are the best Bowser players?

Lordmix, KingKong, Cassius are the ones that come to mind for me. There's a few other good ones, and some players have good Bowser secondaries. Nick Riddle actually has a pretty good Bowser. Like many characters, he lacks rep and traveling of those who do play him

 

[Deleted member]

Dire is also a very good Bowser. Beat Nairo in a KTAR this year even and got top 16 there solo Bowser. HIKARU, the best DK in the world also has a Bowser secondary.

 

[QualityQ]

*tl;dr: skip to #5*

Just posting this here for reference:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/577588/updated_using_results_since_116_i_made_a_100/

Notice how Pac-Man is above Corrin, Robin, Lucario, Villager, Ryu, Pit, Yoshi, and Ike among others, and almost at the level of Ness, Captain Falcon, and Donkey Kong? He's still showing up, people!

I'm always skeptical about what comes off of Reddit, so I went through and looked at the numbers. I think my skepticism is justified here.

1. The "point system" is really odd, quote the creator, "Yeah, this is the best I could come up with, It's better than the last one but It's still really bad."

2. People tend to ignore size of the tournament; here a 300-person tournament is worth just as much as a 700-person or 1000+ tournament, which in my opinion is silly. 4th/700 is simply not the same as 4th/300, a place at a tournament with more people should be weighed more.

3. The tournaments chosen skew the data. Here's the tournament list, by area:

Texas – 2
Georgia – 1
New Jersey –2
Mexico –2
Illinois—2
Florida—2
Tennessee—1
California—3
Virginia—1
Japan—2
Massachusetts—1
Netherlands—1
Michigan—1

And here it is again by common US boundaries:

(US)
West --3
Mid-West --3
South--7
North-East--2
(Japan) 2
(Mexico) 2
(Europe) 1

This means some people's performance is weighed more heavily solely because they attend more tournaments, not necessarily performance. Overall, players from south US are drastically more determinant of the tier list than Japan and Europe.

4. A couple players travel really well (Dabuz plays in the US, Mexico, and Japan!), so their performance is weighed more heavily. Example: a player may take 1st in one tournament, but if they only play in that tournament, their character performance is worth less than someone who, say, takes 1st in three tournaments.

5. Finally, the factors above combine to skew some characters heavily. Usually because a player plays in too many tournaments so their vote is worth much more, or a sum of average-ish performances pushes the character higher. The biggest offenders here are:

(High outliers)
(Low outliers)

Basically, the way this list was constructed is skewed in such a way that it benefits/hurts these characters by a significant amount. The data is certainly useful, but some characters have a wide margin of error.

 

[Ethan7]

If you want data on results every character achives:
Data - Tournament Placing Database & Scoring Project | Smashboards
It is constantly updated, has a point system where tournaments with high attendance and numbers of top players yield more points, has several different categories and is very organized in general.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

(High outliers)
(Low outliers)

Just wondering, does "high outliers" mean that they were ranked higher than they should have been, or that they deserved to be ranked higher? (And likewise for low outliers.)

 

[TDK]

Just wondering, does "high outliers" mean that they were ranked higher than they should have been, or that they deserved to be ranked higher? (And likewise for low outliers.)

They were ranked higher than they should have been/lower than they should have been.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Question: Is the tier list ordered, right now?
But putting arguments and Youtube-comment level insults aside: I think the tier list basically looks as good as it's gonna get if we aren't trying to order it, by this point. Can't see Bayo and Fox as first and second but if they're not really supposed to be second and instead "around that area" then there is not much I can judge.

 

[Ethan7]

Characters are not ranked within tiers at this point. You are voting to establish their tiering position.

FamilyTeam

 

[FamilyTeam]

How long until we are trying to order them?
Again, it's not like we can keep on just doing "oh they're probably roughly around here" forever.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

How long until we are trying to order them?
Again, it's not like we can keep on just doing "oh they're probably roughly around here" forever.

I mean probably by the 15ish mark. This IS only the 5 round.

 

[Browny]

My issue with Greninja is that he has a lot of kill set ups, but nothing he has is reliable. Its all 50:50's and requiring specific moves to combo into kill moves. As long as you avoid the set ups, you'll avoid getting KOd.

This is distinctively different to characters like Mario, Cloud, Mewtwo, Diddy and Ness who all posses raw, spammable KO moves or simple true combos into them.

FamilyTeam this period of voting generally goes for months, as the above poster said I think 15 or so rounds is good. You want the process to span numerous tournaments and nationals to give people enough time to see recent developments with characters. Just think, before Evo everyone thought Ryu was top tier, even as high as #2. If you completed the list the week before Evo it would be so skewed. Given a few months though people realise that it was all hype and no substance.

Diddy is seeing a new resurgence to claim the #1 spot in the game with Zero winning more often now and even Bayonetta climbing again. You need this process to last months to account for all of these changes.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Just a note (mainly to bump the thread, and maybe pull in a few extra votes in doing so), I'll update again tomorrow.

 

[Y2Kay]

My issue with Greninja is that he has a lot of kill set ups, but nothing he has is reliable. Its all 50:50's and requiring specific moves to combo into kill moves. As long as you avoid the set ups, you'll avoid getting KOd.

This is distinctively different to characters like Mario, Cloud, Mewtwo, Diddy and Ness who all posses raw, spammable KO moves or simple true combos into them.

FamilyTeam this period of voting generally goes for months, as the above poster said I think 15 or so rounds is good. You want the process to span numerous tournaments and nationals to give people enough time to see recent developments with characters. Just think, before Evo everyone thought Ryu was top tier, even as high as #2. If you completed the list the week before Evo it would be so skewed. Given a few months though people realise that it was all hype and no substance.

Diddy is seeing a new resurgence to claim the #1 spot in the game with Zero winning more often now and even Bayonetta climbing again. You need this process to last months to account for all of these changes.

Nair up smash, nair fair, bair down tilt up smash, Down tilt up smash and down tilt Forward Air are true combos. The set ups require getting closer to your opponent than you may like, but having "true" kill confirms is not his problem.

Greninja also has akill throw to fall back on. Rage up throw kills really well. He's got one of the best - if not the best - dash grab in the game, and moves really fast on the ground as well.

 

[Browny]

Greninja's nair is the most telegraphed combo starting move in the entire game, you can see it coming from a mile away. As far as I'm concerned you're more likely to land a random shadow sneak than you are a nair on an enemy who is watching out for it when at high %.

 

[Y2Kay]

That's what the all say, until they get hit by it.

But down tilt confirms are easier to land though, I just made sure to name ALL the true kill confirms.

 

[Kofu]

Greninja also has ...one of the best - if not the best - dash grab in the game, and moves really fast on the ground as well.

 

[Y2Kay]

Falcon and Greninja's dash grab have identical frame data. Greninja's grab range is pretty big for a non tether character. I'm not sure if Falcon's range is better.

My point still stands.

 

[itsmeMOB]

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[Frihetsanka]

I changed my vote. My Pit up-vote (which put him at +2) is now a Dark Pit down-vote (which puts him at +2). This way, Dark Pit and Pit will be in the same tier. If more people believe that the Pits should be high tier, you could up-vote Pit and I could change down-vote for Dark Pit to an up-vote for Pit. I personally think they're high-mid tier though.

I also removed my Samus down-vote since I was the only one down-voting her this round, and I added a Mii Swordfighter down-vote to bring them down to low tier. I admit I don't have the best knowledge of the 1111 Miis, so if someone disagrees you could make a case for Swordfighter being 1111 and, if the case is strong enough, I'll remove my down-vote.

 

[Tizio Random]

I just added an upvote to ZSS on my post. For reference:

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[Frihetsanka]

I just added an upvote to ZSS on my post.

May I ask: Why? She's good, but she doesn't strike me as top 5 material.

 

[Tizio Random]

May I ask: Why? She's good, but she doesn't strike me as top 5 material.

Neither do I. But I think she's roughly around 7th place, still a bit higher than where she's now. I also think the tier list is basically good now so I threw this vote just because I couldn't find any better. I could have searched for a countervote among the many messages posted in this thread but, sincerely, I am too lazy.

 

[Bowserboy3]

UPDATING NOW...

 

[Bowserboy3]

UPDATED!

Spoiler: Rules

• You have 5 votes to play with. +1 and/or -1 up to 5 different characters.
• Characters are not ranked within tiers at this point. You are voting to establish their tiering position.
• Remember, it takes +/-3 to move a character 1 tier, and +/-10 to move them 2 tiers. No character can move more than 2 tiers during each phase.
• Please vote on the list at the time of voting. While you can vote based on what you like, things such as "X character will probably get votes later so I'm down voting now etc" isn't the best way to do it.
• and can be joined together to count as one vote if you vote for one or the other. However, you can still vote on them individually if you so desire.

An example vote:

+1
+1
-1
+1
-1

Spoiler: Current List

Version 4.0.6 - Characters not ranked within tiers.

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I would have updated this earlier than now. I meant to update it yesterday, but I was playing games with friends (Mario Kart and Mario Party are fun you know?!), and today I spent far too long playing Bayonetta

Just a reminder to all that characters are not ordered within tiers yet.

Votes for now:
-1
+1
+1 Bayonetta (no help rip)
+1
-1
+1

 

[Wintermelon43]

-lol (I would also down vote Lucina, but there isn't enough votes)
-^
-How is it not obvious that Ike is only mid tier or even low mid, not upper mid???
-lol wut how is he not low tier?
+Extremely underrated character that is upper mid tier and not the low tier garbage that people treat him like. He lacks results and has trouble killing but he has solid projectiles, as well as trampoline which is also good, pretty good aierals, good recovery, has good damage espicially with hydrant setups, a good matchup chart, etc. People act like he's useless because "people can catch fruit" when that isn't even remotly close to accurate.



For my final two votes though, I need some claification: Are the tiers right now Top Tier - High Tier - Mid Tier 1 - Mid Tier 2 - Low Tier - Bottom Tier, or Top Tier - High Tier - Upper Mid Tier - Mid Tier - Low Mid Tier - Low Tier?

 

[TDK]

+1
-1
-1
-1
+1

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

EDIT: Removed -1 because no one's helping me with that, and replaced it with:

-1 He used to do good, but since FOW dropped significantly, Ness has greatly dropped off in the meta game. I don't see him as nearly as big of an active threat as most of the characters on high tier, and rather on par with his current tier.
-1 So people don't want Palutena to move up, yet they're fine with Kirby moving up? Something doesn't seem right here, considering how much better Palutena has done much more than Kirby everywhere.

(back to old votes)

-1 Sorry if you agree with ZeRo, but she is not interchangeable with Marth. If she were, then we would see an equal amount of Marth and Lucina at top level, and that's simply not the case.
-1 Yeah, not seeing what keeps him this high. ANTi only took one stock and then got destroyed the next one.
+1 I can accept low-mid tier, but bottom 12 is too far. She's led a few players to very good results consistently!


This tier list is shaping up pretty nicely! These are my biggest critiques with it right now, with close calls being Captain Falcon -1, Peach +1, Ike -1, Olimar +1, and Dr. Mario -1.

For my final two votes though, I need some claification: Are the tiers right now Top Tier - High Tier - Mid Tier 1 - Mid Tier 2 - Low Tier - Bottom Tier, or Top Tier - High Tier - Upper Mid Tier - Mid Tier - Low Mid Tier - Low Tier?

It's the latter. The fourth tier is where all the characters started, so it is the middlest of mid tier, and from there each tier is like a plus or minus instead of an entire letter difference (that's how I think of it anyway, judge it how you like).

 

[Ethan7]

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Saving other two for later.

 

[Routa]

I see that people are still too focused on the numbers.

+ I'm pretty sure that everyone here who knows mii (höhöö good one Routa) knew that I would upvote Gunner. I have gave my reasoning before and I don't want to sound like a broken record. I can accept him being in the list he currently is if wii only look at results and relevance to the meta, but from the toolkit side and how he works as a character I have hard time not seeing him somewhere around characters like Link, Bowser and Samus.
+ It is really hard to explain why I voted there guys. It might have to do with chatting with a local Dark Pit main and looking more into his theory and data.
- What do you have when you completely remove characters strong advantage state and make his disadvantage state worse? Guest 1111 Brawler.

I'm not sure about the other votes so I will look into them later. Other than thous the tier list seems rather solid atm.

 

[Frihetsanka]

My thoughts on the current tier list:

Top tier: Don't change anything.
High tier: Don't change anything.
High-mid tier: Ike should maybe move down, Ness should maybe move up.
Mid tier: Okay, this tier still needs a lot of changes. Several characters should move down, and Link and/or Bowser could potentially move up (although I think we should wait and see if they get some more noteworthy results first).
Low-mid tier: Mii Brawler should probably drop. Aside from that it looks pretty good (I could see Palutena being regular mid tier, although she might need some more results first). More characters should drop from mid tier. Maybe Bowser Jr. should drop as well?
Low tier: Looks pretty good to me.

So I'll probably downvote some characters to low-mid tier and maybe spend some votes as counter-votes (people still underestimate Lucina, it seems).