Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

[Y2Kay]

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[Deleted member]

-1 Zard really just does not have the juice to be a mid tier. Little amount of notable results and his awful disadvantage state are always going to keep him from relevancy, along with a lack of reward compared to other heavies.
-1 Mid's a better place for him. He's annoying but not good.
-1 After Nasubi dropping him, I can safely say he's dropping slower to low tier as the meta progresses.
-1 Like R.O.B., annoying but not good.
+1 Too low for where she is rn.

 

[Bowserboy3]

For my final two votes though, I need some claification: Are the tiers right now Top Tier - High Tier - Mid Tier 1 - Mid Tier 2 - Low Tier - Bottom Tier, or Top Tier - High Tier - Upper Mid Tier - Mid Tier - Low Mid Tier - Low Tier?

Right now, nothing is confirmed in terms of tiers and tier names; you're free to see them as what you like.

Though if you really want some help on deciding, just go for the 2nd option you said because I feel we need another tier somewhere, be it near the top, or the bottom.

 

[Deleted member]

-1 Wait, when did this happen? "Tons of people play him!" And only a few people do well with him, which shows that he isn't a solid high tier at the moment. As weird as it may sound, high representation with few results proves that it's most likely the specific players being really good at the game instead of the character.
-1 Sorry if you agree with ZeRo, but she is not interchangeable with Marth. If she were, then we would see an equal amount of Marth and Lucina at top level, and that's simply not the case.

the misinformation here is delicious

Fatality continues to get excellent results with Falcon at top level, and other Falcons like Tearbear, Pichi and Gluttony continue to do well. Before you pull the "Fatality is carrying Falcon at majors" excuse, I guess we can say Mario isn't that good either since Ally is the only Mario getitng into top 16s at majors.

Lucina has been getting rep lately, Kogarasuma is a solo Lucina that is getting respectable results with her and Nairo used her to good success at Little Big House and even BH6.

 

[Wintermelon43]

the misinformation here is delicious

-1 Like R.O.B., annoying but not good.

You're right. It is.

Right now, nothing is confirmed in terms of tiers and tier names; you're free to see them as what you like.

Though if you really want some help on deciding, just go for the 2nd option you said because I feel we need another tier somewhere, be it near the top, or the bottom.

Alright then, I'll edit in my remaining votes. I agree we need another tier (I think 2 may be good)

 

[Frihetsanka]

Bowserboy3 I have a suggestion for a rule change regarding the Pits. What if they always remain at the same tier, but can end up at different parts in the tier? So, for instance, Pit might be #1 in high-mid tier and Dark Pit #4. Having to spend two votes to move the Pits is kind of annoying, and I think most will try to keep them within the same tier anyway.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Bowserboy3 I have a suggestion for a rule change regarding the Pits. What if they always remain at the same tier, but can end up at different parts in the tier? So, for instance, Pit might be #1 in high-mid tier and Dark Pit #4. Having to spend two votes to move the Pits is kind of annoying, and I think most will try to keep them within the same tier anyway.

The reason they are split is because it became quite common for people to split them up nowadays. I agree that it could be annoying to have to vote twice to move them up, so I might make a new rule, which would be as follows...

New Rule on /

• and can be joined together to count as one vote if you vote for one or the other. However, you can still vote on them individually if you so desire.

What's certain though, the part of Pit and Dark Pit being joined is going straight out of the window when we get around to voting on individual tier placements. This is when I feel not having them joined will mean most.

But for now, if you want to vote up Pit or Dark Pit, feel free to include them in the same vote.

So, for example, Routa and Y2Kay 's current votes on the Pits is what I would be considering "1 vote", because they are both up voting both Pits.

 

[MarioManTAW]

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[lbrasz44]

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Probably it for now. The tier list is looking pretty good as is so far, nothing else is really jumping out

 

[Nidtendofreak]

+ Once again: better than ever single character in the tier below him, better than a few in his current tier. San did just as well at TBH recently as he's always done a majors: proof that Ike as a character has not dropped in relative power from before. On top of that, Ryo announced he was going to go back to pure Ike for a while. He's in the correct tier.
-I'll maintain my position of "Corrin is at the top of the tier below". If Ryo's results spike back up after he goes pure Ike again however, I'll consider it fairly solid proof that Corrin is even lower than that. (As far as I have seen, Ryo's results have suffered since picking up Corrin seriously.)
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Holding onto the last vote again

 

[QualityQ]

the misinformation here is delicious

Before you pull the "Fatality is carrying Falcon at majors" excuse, I guess we can say Mario isn't that good either since Ally is the only Mario getitng into top 16s at majors.

*cough* ANTi exists *cough* Comparing Mario to Falcon is probably not a good comparison. And if he's truly in that tier, he's probably toward the bottom of it.

Time to make use of the fancy new rule

+1 [ + ]
-1
+1 , mainly to make another tier on the top side
-1
-1

 

[Deleted member]

*cough* ANTi exists *cough* Comparing Mario to Falcon is probably not a good comparison. And if he's truly in that tier, he's probably toward the bottom of it.

Time to make use of the fancy new rule

+1 [ + ]

ANTi has a ton of secondaries/pockets though. Ally is almost always pure Mario.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

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[L1N3R1D3R]

the misinformation here is delicious

Fatality continues to get excellent results with Falcon at top level, and other Falcons like Tearbear, Pichi and Gluttony continue to do well. Before you pull the "Fatality is carrying Falcon at majors" excuse, I guess we can say Mario isn't that good either since Ally is the only Mario getitng into top 16s at majors.

Lucina has been getting rep lately, Kogarasuma is a solo Lucina that is getting respectable results with her and Nairo used her to good success at Little Big House and even BH6.

ANTi got 2nd at TBH6 using Mario for most sets, only using ZSS for one matchup and losing with Cloud and Charizard. I'm pretty sure it's safe to say he proves Mario's worth, especially since he's beaten lots of top players including ZeRo with his Mario. It's entirely incorrect to assume that Ally is the "only Mario getting top 16 in majors anymore", because that's simply not the case.

And you also seem to overlook FILIP, Ron, and Zenyou, who also do well with Mario on the same level of Tearbear and Pichi's Falcon main and better than Gluttony's Falcon secondary. For comparison, Fatality to Ally and ANTi, and Tearbear, Pichi, and sometimes Gluttony compared to FILIP, Ron, and Zenyou. I think it's clear which character is far stronger. Not a fair comparison.

And your point about Lucina would stand if I said purely representation, but I didn't. Kogarasuma does well, for sure, but not to the same consistent top 16 level as Mr. E and usually MKLeo and Pugwest. And again, Nairo's Lucina is a secondary to his far superior and more used ZSS. Another comparison, Kogarasuma and occasionally Nairo to Mr. E, MKLeo, and Pugwest. Again, not a close competition, and a big enough gap to warrant a tier difference. She's better than Marth against a few select characters, but not nearly enough to make a difference in this issue.

Stop calling our arguments "misinformation", because that sounds like you know all the facts, which is pretty presumptuous.

 

[TDK]

What's will all the Lucina hate?

 

[Ethan7]

What's will all the Lucina hate?

Just because we don't think she is as effective in competitive play as the list displays does not mean we "hate" this fictional character.

 

[Wintermelon43]

What's will all the Lucina hate?

Because even the character she is a clone of is too high. So naturally, she is too high. Plus most people think that Tippers make her tiers below Marth for some reason

 

[Samuelwisebaggins]

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[Bigbomb2]

Y'all get spicy with these discussions. At this point you could walk away with what list we have now and I'd be fine with it.
+ I thought she was in mid tier until I looked at the list again. Yeah half her toolkit blows but the rest of it is pretty great. Some weird hybrid. I think mid is a good spot for her because the bad moves still hurt her in some ways.
- I know he still has hella good frame data and damage output, but he is simply too outclassed by Mario with all Mario's (few) faults still intact plus his own new ones. (I feel like I did this exact vote and description before. I'm getting old :V)
- I think the lizard is still underrated, but he's still nothing fantastic. And he got a few neato results actually. But his bair is dope to land though
+ Fair the character. But seriously, at top level this guy has so many tricks and a pretty high skill ceiling so he's not going anywhere. Remember when he was actually straight booty? Mmmm buffs

I'll just save my last vote. I want to raise ,, and maaaaaybe but their lack of high level traveling reps hurts them. Except Lucas is getting that limelight finally

 

[TDK]

I've edited my +1 to be a +1 .

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Time to vote for the same 4 characters again...
You can tell I agree with the popular opinions:

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I'll type down my reasons later...

 

[Frihetsanka]

Votes thus far:

Moving up to Top tier: [3]
Upper High tier: [2][1][0]
Lower High tier: [0][-1][-2]
Moving up to Lower High tier: [6][5][3]
Hid-mid tier: [2][1][0]
Mid tier: [1][0][-1][-2]
Moving down to Low-mid tier: [-4][-3]
Moving up to Mid tier: [3]
Low-mid tier: [2][1][-1][-2]
Moving down to Low tier: [-3]
Low tier: [0]

Edit: After some discussion, I've decided to rename a few of the unofficial tier names. A lot of people wanted more tiers, so High tier was split into two, and a new Top tier was created. If this doesn't work I'll switch back to the old tier names. This is unofficial.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

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Saving a vote.

 

[AlphaSSB]

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[Frihetsanka]

Some things worth noting right now:

Corrin is moving down to high-mid tier (-3 right now). Do we want that to happen?

Palutena and Kirby are moving back to Mid tier.

Charizard is moving down to Low-mid tier, by a wide marging. Wario might be (he's currently at -3).

Mii Gunner is currently at -2... In Low-mid tier. But Mii Gunner is actually pretty decent and probably shouldn't move down any further at all, so I suggest an up-vote or two to reduce the risk of them falling down (Mii Brawler should move down though).

Roy is at +2 and is close to moving up to Mid tier. Olimar is at +2 and is close to moving up to High tier. That's interesting.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

+ Once again: better than ever single character in the tier below him, better than a few in his current tier. San did just as well at TBH recently as he's always done a majors: proof that Ike as a character has not dropped in relative power from before. On top of that, Ryo announced he was going to go back to pure Ike for a while. He's in the correct tier.
-I'll maintain my position of "Corrin is at the top of the tier below". If Ryo's results spike back up after he goes pure Ike again however, I'll consider it fairly solid proof that Corrin is even lower than that. (As far as I have seen, Ryo's results have suffered since picking up Corrin seriously.)
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Holding onto the last vote again

Since when was Ryo the only notable Corrin? Ryuga, Frozen, Yoc, and Cosmos are all very notable Corrins with more notable wins then Ryo. Personally I fealt Ryo could of made it to top 8 if he swapped to corrin when Aba pulled out Rosa. Also, I think Ryo went Ike for the sets he lost at CEO(don't quote me on that though) and getting 9th at such a hard tournament like SSC is amazing.


Anywho, my votes
+
+1 this is really just a counter vote. While I think PAC man is not upper mid like someone else thinks(cause he's not and I won't be convinced until proper evidence is released by said person, however by looking at the tiers listed I do NOT believe he is with people such as Falco.
-1 I think she is s good character, but not high tier


Saving other votes for later.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Mii Gunner is currently at -2... In Low-mid tier. But Mii Gunner is actually pretty decent and probably shouldn't move down any further at all, so I suggest an up-vote or two to reduce the risk of them falling down (Mii Brawler should move down though).

I think you miscounted the Mii votes. Gunner is at +/- 0. One of the 2 votes was an upvote.

 

[Zerp]

+1 While I don't think his results are all that impressive on their own, when you consider how little people actually play him and what his rate of success must be, it's pretty impressive.
-1 Honestly think he's the worst character in the game without custom sizes and moves.
-1 Waaaaaaaaaaaaaa...
-1 I personally believe Roy's in the right tier and shouldn't move upwards.


Saving my last vote.

 

[Deleted member]

-1 Zard really just does not have the juice to be a mid tier. Little amount of notable results and his awful disadvantage state are always going to keep him from relevancy, along with a lack of reward compared to other heavies.
-1 Mid's a better place for him. He's annoying but not good.
-1 After Nasubi dropping him, I can safely say he's dropping slower to low tier as the meta progresses.
-1 Like R.O.B., annoying but not good.
+1 Too low for where she is rn.

Changing my Zard downvote to this:

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[valakmtnsmash4]

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-(me thinks lower mid)
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[Routa]

I see that people are still too focused on the numbers.

+ I'm pretty sure that everyone here who knows mii (höhöö good one Routa) knew that I would upvote Gunner. I have gave my reasoning before and I don't want to sound like a broken record. I can accept him being in the list he currently is if wii only look at results and relevance to the meta, but from the toolkit side and how he works as a character I have hard time not seeing him somewhere around characters like Link, Bowser and Samus.
+ It is really hard to explain why I voted there guys. It might have to do with chatting with a local Dark Pit main and looking more into his theory and data.
- What do you have when you completely remove characters strong advantage state and make his disadvantage state worse? Guest 1111 Brawler.

I'm not sure about the other votes so I will look into them later. Other than thous the tier list seems rather solid atm.

-Many of the Pac-Man's moves are kinda underwhelming/undertuned. He kinda suffers from the same thing as Wario which is being centralized around a gimmick, in Pac-Man's case it is the Fruit, while rest of his moveset is bad (Wario doesn't have it as bad as Pac-Man tho).

- Yeah he is getting results, but in majority of the situation he is being used as a counterpick character. Also he has next to 0 results in Europe. Also his tools are nothing to brag about.

I think that is mainly considered to be bottom/low tier 'cause he was almost always put there without reasoning since the beginning of Sm4sh.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think you miscounted the Mii votes. Gunner is at +/- 0. One of the 2 votes was an upvote.

I counted 3 down-votes and 1 up-vote.

 

[Ethan7]

Using my other two votes.
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[Nidtendofreak]

Since when was Ryo the only notable Corrin? Ryuga, Frozen, Yoc, and Cosmos are all very notable Corrins with more notable wins then Ryo. Personally I fealt Ryo could of made it to top 8 if he swapped to corrin when Aba pulled out Rosa. Also, I think Ryo went Ike for the sets he lost at CEO(don't quote me on that though) and getting 9th at such a hard tournament like SSC is amazing.

He's far from the only one, never claimed he was.

However, he's one of two Ike mains that went from Ike to Corrin. He's the one who's overall results have dropped since then (want to stress as far as I know, I don't know if like he took an extended break during that period as well or what not. But he has not been showing up as much as he used to, which is different from not showing up at all). If when he goes back to pure Ike his results jump back up, that's at a minimum very interesting data particularly since he doesn't travel as much/as far as some larger names do, so his opponents are more consistent in terms of who he's facing.

Data is data, and this is frankly one of the few times where we can potentially compare two characters with very minimal difference in outside variables (Ryo is very familiar with both characters and has proven to have the ability to place well with both at at least some point in the past, minimal travel range means he's facing the same opponents so that's less of a variable on his results). If there's no real different when he makes the switch, then there's no real difference (thus Ike and Corrin are possibly closer to the same level in terms of characters strength). If his results go up, that potentially says something. (Evidence to support that the gap between the two is even smaller than in the case of no real difference, would need further evidence to draw greater conclusions than that). If his results drop, that also potentially says something. (Gap between Ike and Corrin is large than expected). I'm expecting either roughly the same, or slightly improved results.

Really, any time this situation happens with two particular characters (Player goes back to his old main after an extended break and isn't traveling much beyond their usual scope), its worth particularly watching.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

He's far from the only one, never claimed he was.

However, he's one of two Ike mains that went from Ike to Corrin. He's the one who's overall results have dropped since then (want to stress as far as I know, I don't know if like he took an extended break during that period as well or what not. But he has not been showing up as much as he used to, which is different from not showing up at all). If when he goes back to pure Ike his results jump back up, that's at a minimum very interesting data particularly since he doesn't travel as much/as far as some larger names do, so his opponents are more consistent in terms of who he's facing.

Data is data, and this is frankly one of the few times where we can potentially compare two characters with very minimal difference in outside variables (Ryo is very familiar with both characters and has proven to have the ability to place well with both at at least some point in the past, minimal travel range means he's facing the same opponents so that's less of a variable on his results). If there's no real different when he makes the switch, then there's no real difference (thus Ike and Corrin are possibly closer to the same level in terms of characters strength). If his results go up, that potentially says something. (Evidence to support that the gap between the two is even smaller than in the case of no real difference, would need further evidence to draw greater conclusions than that). If his results drop, that also potentially says something. (Gap between Ike and Corrin is large than expected). I'm expecting either roughly the same, or slightly improved results.

Really, any time this situation happens with two particular characters (Player goes back to his old main after an extended break and isn't traveling much beyond their usual scope), its worth particularly watching.

Well, I am subscribed to MVG Gaming(smash conference tournament series that Ryo used to attend basically daily however they moved south and now he can't go as often) and he actually used Ike quite often in that, however he has lost to people clearly worse than him multiple times like Rogue Penguin. Smash Con was his best placing in awhile, and that was mainly corrin. I am still doing a bit of looking, but he did use Ike in one of th sets he lost in CEO. He best placing at a big tournament with Ike was MLG where he got 7th and with corrin he got 9th at SSC. While the numbers say he got better results with Ike, tournament wise SSC was on a new level when compared to MLG. Honestly I don't know where this went, but i was trying to show that his results didn't worsen at all, and many would consider it better.

 

[Deleted member]

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[Dee-SmashinBoss]

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Saving the last vote.

 

[Deleted member]

-1 Zard really just does not have the juice to be a mid tier. Little amount of notable results and his awful disadvantage state are always going to keep him from relevancy, along with a lack of reward compared to other heavies.
-1 Mid's a better place for him. He's annoying but not good.
-1 After Nasubi dropping him, I can safely say he's dropping slower to low tier as the meta progresses.
-1 Like R.O.B., annoying but not good.
+1 Too low for where she is rn.

Changing my Zard downvote to this:

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Gonna change up my votes overall.

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[Nidtendofreak]

+ Once again: better than ever single character in the tier below him, better than a few in his current tier. San did just as well at TBH recently as he's always done a majors: proof that Ike as a character has not dropped in relative power from before. On top of that, Ryo announced he was going to go back to pure Ike for a while. He's in the correct tier.
-I'll maintain my position of "Corrin is at the top of the tier below". If Ryo's results spike back up after he goes pure Ike again however, I'll consider it fairly solid proof that Corrin is even lower than that. (As far as I have seen, Ryo's results have suffered since picking up Corrin seriously.)
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Holding onto the last vote again

Making my last vote: -

 

[Frihetsanka]

I updated the "votes thus far"-list. Assuming it's accurate, Sheik is close to creating a tier of her own, and Pikachu and Corrin are close to falling down to High-mid tier. Lucina is currently falling down to High-mid tier, and the Pits and Ness are moving up to High tier. Olimar is close to moving up to High tier (should he?), and Pac-Man, Dr. Mario, Samus, and Wii Fit Trainer are close to falling down to Low-mid tier (Charizard and Wario are falling). It seems like Palutena and Kirby might make a return to Mid tier. Falco is pretty close to Mid tier as well. Mii Gunner is almost moving down to Low tier, which is a bit much, in my opinion; Mii Gunner is somewhat decent. Mii Brawler is moving down to Low tier.