Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

[ShadowGuy1]

Oh how I hate not getting notifications for this thread. I basically missed an entire voting session cause I forgot about it.


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[Frihetsanka]

Oh how I hate not getting notifications for this thread. I basically missed an entire voting session cause I forgot about it.


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Just watch it then?

I wonder if now is a good time to further downvote those three characters. It means that we might end up with an almost empty low tier (for the time being, at least, especially since Falco might move up, which would leave only King Dedede in Low tier, unless one of the Miis drops).

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Just watch it then?

I wonder if now is a good time to further downvote those three characters. It means that we might end up with an almost empty low tier (for the time being, at least, especially since Falco might move up, which would leave only King Dedede in Low tier, unless one of the Miis drops).

Smashboards always unwatches stuff for me randomly idk why.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Smashboards always unwatches stuff for me randomly idk why.

If you aren't active in a thread for a while, and ignore notifications from it, there comes a point when Smashboards essentially doesn't notify you anymore.

Sometimes, it's good just to click the notifications even if you don't outright read them. At least then you enter the thread and Smashboards knows you're still interested.

I wonder if now is a good time to further downvote those three characters. It means that we might end up with an almost empty low tier (for the time being, at least, especially since Falco might move up, which would leave only King Dedede in Low tier, unless one of the Miis drops).

It would be fine to end up with an almost empty tier. We're nowhere near done just yet, so we can always vote characters into that tier next round.

We don't have to have characters to fill empty gaps when characters move up or down. We can sort it out in time.

That's kind of the point of this whole kind of voting; to let it just flow naturally.

I could understand your concerns though, if perhaps I said the next voting round would be the last before we locked it and worked on individual tiers. Then, we would just have one round to vote on getting characters into an almost empty tier, but luckily that's not the case.

I shouldn't worry about it for now.

Besides, I personally think there should be a tier created near the top, not so much the bottom, but that's just my opinion anyway.

 

[Bigbomb2]

If you showed me that tier list I'm its current state and said it was done I'd probably not really disagree with it much :x. But anyhow, this hard yo. There's too many viable and semi-viable characters these days. Especially characters with high skill ceilings. A lot of those characters aren't nearly as used, and the ones that are already high/top tier are even scarier (Marth comes to mind). What if they had Diddy level rep? Or what else can labbers discover in their characters' metas? I always think of these things, which makes this game exciting
+ I feel like Lucas can only really climb at this point. He just feels solid
+ I still feel people will figure out how to fight him but Sonic is still nuts too. And awful to fight
- He's still aight but all the faults Mario has is amplified in Doc. But his frame data is still bonkers
+ I'm not sure Bayo actually has a truly bad MU? She has more troublesome ones (projectile users I heard are tougher), maybe a 55-45 MU but nothing crazy from what I can see. And screw Witch Time that move gets me saltier than any other move
+ I want to drop him lower, but I don't see him lower. I don't know how to explain it. He's just so wonky to fight. You could play a Pac main 1000 times and if they're great, there will always be something different each time that can catch you off guard. And maybe KO you. This is more of a counter vote though because he's still lacking some.

And I want to do something with Game and Watch but he's one of those I have no idea what to do with

 

[ShadowGuy1]

If you showed me that tier list I'm its current state and said it was done I'd probably not really disagree with it much :x. But anyhow, this hard yo. There's too many viable and semi-viable characters these days. Especially characters with high skill ceilings. A lot of those characters aren't nearly as used, and the ones that are already high/top tier are even scarier (Marth comes to mind). What if they had Diddy level rep? Or what else can labbers discover in their characters' metas? I always think of these things, which makes this game exciting
+ I feel like Lucas can only really climb at this point. He just feels solid
+ I still feel people will figure out how to fight him but Sonic is still nuts too. And awful to fight
- He's still aight but all the faults Mario has is amplified in Doc. But his frame data is still bonkers
+ I'm not sure Bayo actually has a truly bad MU? She has more troublesome ones (projectile users I heard are tougher), maybe a 55-45 MU but nothing crazy from what I can see. And screw Witch Time that move gets me saltier than any other move
+ I want to drop him lower, but I don't see him lower. I don't know how to explain it. He's just so wonky to fight. You could play a Pac main 1000 times and if they're great, there will always be something different each time that can catch you off guard. And maybe KO you. This is more of a counter vote though because he's still lacking some.

And I want to do something with Game and Watch but he's one of those I have no idea what to do with

Link beats Bayonetta 6-4 - Radical Larry

 

[Bigbomb2]

We don't speak that name 'round these parts partner

 

[Tizio Random]

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[Nidtendofreak]

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Saving my other two for later

Adding a -to my list. He just doesn't have what it takes anymore.

Still holding onto my last vote. If you don't see anything else come up from me consider it a +

 

[Kirby Dragons]

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[L1N3R1D3R]

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You're starting to look like Wintermelon with these persistent votes that make hardly any sense. Could you explain your reasoning behind these? I'm not seeing it right now, but I'm willing to hear your opinion.

Also, to clarify my thoughts about Pac-Man: I don't care if he ends up bottom 15 or wherever. I don't care if he moves down a single tier right now. But he certainly doesn't deserve more than one tier drop. Again, Abadango has proven that Pac-Man can do extremely well at high levels even before buffs. Other characters have inevitably risen which has consequently moved him down, but he shouldn't be "low tier" because he can do a lot.

And some people seem to think that Pac-Man's results have disappeared at high level once Abadango dropped him, when in reality there are others such as Elexiao, Zage, Sinji, Ginko, and Tea who are still doing decently well (admittedly not amazing results, but at least worth considering). I also have more hope for the future in a character like Pac-Man (or Ryu) with a complicated theory that hasn't been fully fleshed out yet than a simpler, more honest character like Palutena (or Ness).

And also, Feelicks, mentioning the results of Zelda and Brawl Jigglypuff is honestly just snarky, as being pocketed by a top player for only a few notable matches and winning smaller regional tournaments don't come close to the numerous, consistent top 8 results at nationals and internationals that Abadango has boasted with Pac-Man. Also, there are a few notable players that still place highly in large tournaments who I've mentioned earlier that do much better than Zelda or Brawl Jiggs.

I honestly wish people would stop being so stubborn when their opinion is in the majority, because we can accomplish a lot more if we consider others' opinions instead of remaining stubborn.

 

[TDK]

Again, Abadango has proven that Pac-Man can do extremely well at high levels even before buffs.

Please don't count something as old as APEX 2015. The metagame has changed hugely since then, there's 7 new characters, a lot of characters are hugely different, and a lot of players have gotten better. Tier lists are a reflection of the current meta, not an outdated one, and Abadango's results with the character are anything but current.

And aba's current PAC-MAN is a shadow of its former self. The most it's done in months it take a singular game off of Zinoto before getting 2-stocked the next game.

 

[Wintermelon43]

You're starting to look like Wintermelon with these persistent votes that make hardly any sense.

I saw that..........

Also, I agree with you on Pac-Man. I actually think he deserves to go UP one tier. People don't understand him at all lol. Somebody needs to get really good with him and show the world why he's at least upper mid. Too bad he's hard to play and has low rep so that won't be for a while....

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Please don't count something as old as APEX 2015. The metagame has changed hugely since then, there's 7 new characters, a lot of characters are hugely different, and a lot of players have gotten better. Tier lists are a reflection of the current meta, not an outdated one, and Abadango's results with the character are anything but current.

And aba's current PAC-MAN is a shadow of its former self. The most it's done in months it take a singular game off of Zinoto before getting 2-stocked the next game.

I'm also counting EVO 2015, The Big House 5, and lots of large Japanese tournaments including Sumabato 6, which all happened after the Lucas, Roy, and Ryu patch and before he switched to maining Meta Knight.

And for current results he has, I'm not talking about Abadango's Pac-Man at all, because I realize it's quite out of practice and rusty. Instead, I gave some examples of other players who still play him and place pretty well, including Elexiao, Ginko, Sinji, Tea, and Zage. I know that isn't too impressive, but I just want to let people know that his representation still does exist because I've seen plenty of people who are ignorant and believe he has none, and that annoys me.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I honestly wish people would stop being so stubborn when their opinion is in the majority, because we can accomplish a lot more if we consider others' opinions instead of remaining stubborn.

Personally, I find it hard to take these community voting tier list seriously.
They honestly feel more like popularity contest rather then actual tier list, & I know people are disagree with me on this but I think rating a character just based on results is the wrong way to determine how good the character is.

 

[Y2Kay]

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[valakmtnsmash4]

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[TDK]

I'm also counting EVO 2015,

You mean the tournament that allowed customs, thus being an entire different game than any other major tournament?

The Big House 5

and lots of large Japanese tournaments including Sumabato 6, which all happened after the Lucas, Roy, and Ryu patch and before he switched to maining Meta Knight.

Rule of thumb: When making a tier list, only count results within the current patch. From my perspective, it seems like you're including old tournaments to specifically bolster Pac-man's results, when in reality, these tournaments that you mentioned no longer reflect the current metagame and no longer count unless we wish to corrupt the data pool and in turn make an innaccurate tier list.

nstead, I gave some examples of other players who still play him and place pretty well, including Elexiao, Ginko, Sinji, Tea, and Zage. I know that isn't too impressive, but I just want to let people know that his representation still does exist because I've seen plenty of people who are ignorant and believe he has none, and that annoys me.

I will give you these, though none of them have performed well at the highest level (European continentals don't count because outside of Mr. R and iStudying, Europe is a weaker region than say, the US or Japan). While Ginko, Sinji, and Tea are great, do they do consistently well in the current patch at tournaments at a higher level than regional with multiple PGR ranked players in attendance? (Not sure if they do or not, would legitimately like an answer). Same with Zage, though he doesn't do well in his own region anymore at a local level, from what I've seen recently.


Reminder to everyone that tier lists are a reflection of the current metagame and as such, if you are to make a results argument, including tournaments older than the current metagame (1.1.6) harms your statement, not helping it, because even if your character hasn't been touched by patches since 1.0.0, other characters have, meaning the metagame is strictly different depending on which patch you look at and as such, results will be different.

Personally, I find it hard to take these community voting tier list seriously.
They honestly feel more like popularity contest rather then actual tier list, & I know people are disagree with me on this but I think rating a character just based on results is the wrong way to determine how good the character is.

Here's the thing. Not trying to be mean or anything

Unfortunately, results are everything. We could argue about a character's theory all we like, but if the character does not have the results to back up this theory, then the theory is flawed and we need to look at it again. Results are more than just "oh more people played this character so they're better" or "this character won a tournament they must be the best".

For example, let's say I made a comprehensive argument on how is the best character in the game because he only takes 4 or 5 good hits to kill you and can edge guard you really well with his strong attacks and spikes. However, if we are to look at tournament results, Ganon has failed to attain any noteworthy results beyond a local level. Now, let's look into this more. What is stopping Ganon mains from producing good results at a national (or stacked regional) or higher level?

Matchups. Let's say for argument's sake that 5 Ganons with skill equal to that of a top 25 player enter a major tournament and all went out in round 1 pools. Assuming they didn't SD or otherwise choke, why could they have lost to worse players than them? Because Ganon has some awful matchups to really common characters, such as Sheik, Rosalina, ZSS, and Bayonetta, and some other, less common characters like Olimar, Mega Man, and more. Now, instead of saying "oh they didn't play the matchup right" and try to theory my way through and say that Ganon beats Sheik (for example), I can analyze the sets to find out why the Ganon lost to a player they were worse than. In that, I would find that Sheik's combination of Needles and Frame Data can prevent Ganon from doing anything, thus making my theory irrelevant, as even though Ganon only takes 4 or 5 hits to kill you, against commonly played characters at a high level it can be next to impossible for you to get those hits in.

Theory isn't an excuse to ignore results, nor is results an excuse to ignore theory. Good, correct theory is proven by good, consistent, high-level results and good matchups. If a character is missing any one of these then the other two may not be correct either.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

You're starting to look like Wintermelon with these persistent votes that make hardly any sense. Could you explain your reasoning behind these? I'm not seeing it right now, but I'm willing to hear your opinion.

I've already talked about Dedede.

Palutena deserves to go down because she isn't better than the characters below her. I play Palutena, and she literally feels like low tier. Her specials are awful, and her ending lag makes it feel like she's temporarily disabled whenever she misses an attack. Results seem like the only reason she hasn't moved down yet.

 

[QualityQ]

Rule of thumb: When making a tier list, only count results within the current patch. From my perspective, it seems like you're including old tournaments to specifically bolster Pac-man's results, when in reality, these tournaments that you mentioned no longer reflect the current metagame and no longer count unless we wish to corrupt the data pool and in turn make an innaccurate tier list.

100% agree here. In terms of modern results, we can all agree Pac has not faired well. And L1N3R1D3R although it may be true that "in the future people may learn more about Pac" and he turns out good, why not save that for a future tier list? Base the tier list on what's happening now, and if it turns out we were wrong, it will be clear to us later.

Here's the thing. Not trying to be mean or anything

Unfortunately, results are everything. We could argue about a character's theory all we like, but if the character does not have the results to back up this theory, then the theory is flawed and we need to look at it again. Results are more than just "oh more people played this character so they're better" or "this character won a tournament they must be the best".

...

Theory isn't an excuse to ignore results, nor is results an excuse to ignore theory. Good, correct theory is proven by good, consistent, high-level results and good matchups. If a character is missing any one of these then the other two may not be correct either.

This I disagree with because

1. has his spot on the list almost exclusively from "potential" or "theory" without nearly as many results as the other characters in his tier. Combo videos as such are theory; yet Ryu remains high.

2. Every time Fatality does well with . "Fatality has great results, C. Fal is underrated!" Well, let's step back and remember Captain Falcon has the widest playerbase of anyone in smash 4, other than maybe cloud. Online and casual tournaments consistently have him as by far and above most popular character; I've seen charts with as much as 40% of participants playing C. Fal. That's pretty crazy in a 50-character list. You're telling me C. Fal has such a titanic playerbase and, out of all that, one good player justifies him as high tier? Would other characters have better results if they had even half as many players?

I propose a wild, crazy new idea: Fatality is just an outstandingly brilliant player, and C. Fal isn't really a high tier pick. Unless there's players other than Fatality that almost as well as he does with C. Fal I'm not aware of, which could be the case. I agree results play a big role, but they too have limitations just as theory does.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

About your "most recent patch only" thing TDK

Should probably include 1.1.5. The only different between it and 1.1.6 is Bayo. That's more than close enough to be valid I feel.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

For example, let's say I made a comprehensive argument on how is the best character in the game because he only takes 4 or 5 good hits to kill you and can edge guard you really well with his strong attacks and spikes. However, if we are to look at tournament results, Ganon has failed to attain any noteworthy results beyond a local level. Now, let's look into this more. What is stopping Ganon mains from producing good results at a national (or stacked regional) or higher level?

Matchups. Let's say for argument's sake that 5 Ganons with skill equal to that of a top 25 player enter a major tournament and all went out in round 1 pools. Assuming they didn't SD or otherwise choke, why could they have lost to worse players than them? Because Ganon has some awful matchups to really common characters, such as Sheik, Rosalina, ZSS, and Bayonetta, and some other, less common characters like Olimar, Mega Man, and more. Now, instead of saying "oh they didn't play the matchup right" and try to theory my way through and say that Ganon beats Sheik (for example), I can analyze the sets to find out why the Ganon lost to a player they were worse than. In that, I would find that Sheik's combination of Needles and Frame Data can prevent Ganon from doing anything, thus making my theory irrelevant, as even though Ganon only takes 4 or 5 hits to kill you, against commonly played characters at a high level it can be next to impossible for you to get those hits in.

I understand your point here & the tone you going for, but your argument has one fatal flaw.
Matchups don't equal results.

In your example of how good a character is in "theory", just because say Ganon loses badly against Sheik, it doesn't mean Ganon can't win or do well in a tournament. That situation is based on both the player's choices & there are so many other factors that can change the Ganon player's outcome in the tournament.

I failed to elaborate this my original post (so my bad) but results are more based on how good the player is, not the character or characters that were used.

I hope I can get my point across.

 

[TDK]

In your example of how good a character is in "theory", just because say Ganon loses badly against Sheik, it doesn't mean Ganon can't win or do well in a tournament. That situation is based on both the player's choices & there are so many other factors that can change the Ganon player's outcome in the tournament.

Agreed. However, if Ganon were to run into Sheik and both players were of similar skill (even if the Ganon was better) Sheik is more likely to win because of how badly Sheik bodies Ganon. This is proved by both theory and (hypothetical, since we're assuming hypothetical players) matches that have taken place in tournament that prove that Sheiks are beating Ganons almost 100% of the time, despite the Ganon's being more skilled.

Ganon can do well in a tournament, you're right, but I do feel that Ganon has too many losing matchups with popular characters to be able to do well at the top level.

I failed to elaborate this my original post (so my bad) but results are more based on how good the player is, not the character or characters that were used.

While I do agree with this to some extent, if this was completely true than how did Prince Ramen beat ZeRo? How did Mr. II beat Nairo? How did Xaltis beat ANTi? How did Zenyou beat Ally? How did Jade beat Trela?

Player Skill + Character Skill / Consistency = Results.

I hope I've gotten my point across.

About your "most recent patch only" thing TDK

Should probably include 1.1.5. The only different between it and 1.1.6 is Bayo. That's more than close enough to be valid I feel.

I'm curious. Would you include 1.1.5 results? She's a vastly different character between patches.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I've already talked about Dedede.

Palutena deserves to go down because she isn't better than the characters below her. I play Palutena, and she literally feels like low tier. Her specials are awful, and her ending lag makes it feel like she's temporarily disabled whenever she misses an attack. Results seem like the only reason she hasn't moved down yet.

So, what you're saying is, you think Dedede is better than Palutena, even though Dedede is an offender of exactly the same problems as Palutena, with more problems overall, except actually worse than her in general?

So Palutena's special's are "awful". Yeah, they are pretty poor. As far as teleport recoveries go, Warp doesn't grant quite as much distance as Teleport or Farore's Wind, for example, but at least it still moves good distance and is decently quick to start up. Autoreticle is unfortunately quite bad; when it actually lands, it's overall decent, but as it fails to land most of the time, and it has surprisingly poor range, it makes it a relatively bad move overall. Counter is decent overall, but as far as counter moves go, it's certainly one of the worst, especially when you consider start up and endlag. Reflect Barrier is a legitimately decent move overall. While mostly useless in MU's against characters with no projectiles, the fact that it produces a hitbox, is unblockable, and stays active for a decent time make it at least usable. Reflect can catch roll getups quite easily, and set up into stuff quite reliably from there.

So, what about Dedede's specials? They aren't much better in general. Inhale has no real use what-so-ever; it's range is poor, is easily telegraphed, and has a fair amount of endlag. Sure, it's great for getting that off stage suicide KO (doesn't always have to be suicide, but you know what I mean), but it's for the same reason Ganondorf's Side B Ganoncide is overall situational; the opponent just won't stand near the ledge. Gordo Throw is also almost useless. It is pretty solid at forcing ledge reactions, and just having it bouncing around there makes it a threat, but it is almost irrelevant as a projectile due to the fact that it can backfire on Dedede. Jet Hammer is another almost useless move. Even when fully charged, it doesn't have as much KO power as his smash attacks, is once again, easily telegraphed, and slows down Dedede's abysmal movement even more. Especially against faster characters, this move gets no chance to shine at all. As a recovery move, Dedede's Up Special is arguably better than Palutena's in practice; it grants super armor, as well as a huge amount of height, and it's ability to spike makes it at least threatening in a sense. What it doesn't do is grant Dedede a much needed movement option. Palutena can use Warp as a bonus movement option, especially with the benefit of platforms.

So overall, both characters have their pros and cons with their special movesets. I think we can just agree that their default special movesets are equally as poor as one another, or at least I will consider them equally poor for the sake of argument.

In terms of lag, Palutena's moves do have a fair amount of lag, or at least a few of them do, namely forward and up tilts, and all smashes. This is a problem, but in comparison to Dedede, so do his moves, such as his smash attacks having just as much endlag and even more start up (which is arguably what makes his smashes worse in practice; power and endlag mean a lot yes, but what's the point of that if you can't reliably hit a smash attack due to them riding along on snailback before they strike?). What's more, Dedede's aerials have overall worse landing lag than Palutena, and Palutena can actually space with her aerials, due to having far better start up and better AC frames.

So, why is Palutena better than Dedede, or better than all the characters below her? I'll focus on comparing her to Dedede, but a lot of these apply for most everyone else too.

Palutena has one thing that makes her better and more viable than Dedede, and that that she can deal with the top tier characters much better than Dedede (and in general, most around her). Palutena isn't plagued with a huge hurtbox, or poor spacing ability like Dedede, and possessing these traits makes life against top tiers hard.

But Palutena has one MAJOR thing about her that is pivotal to her matchups, and why she is better than Dedede, most below her, and arguably a fair amount still above her, and that is that she has great mobility. Not only does great mobility mean you can keep up the pace with the overall fast top tiers better, but it also means you have better movement options, and the ability to outpace characters, something that plagues a lot of characters, certainly Dedede, and something that harms their MU's with faster characters. Palutena does not have this worry.

And on top of this Palutena does have more results than Dedede, all below her, and once again, a fair few amount of characters above her. The comment of "Results seem like the only reason she hasn't moved down yet", regardless of all the things I said above, is exactly the reason she's better than those characters. A character simply just doesn't get results and is bad. Worse off characters get next to no results, where as better characters get more results. It's for this reason Diddy and Sheik can be universally considered top tier, because they get results. It's for this reason why Ganondorf and Jigglypuff are bottom tier, because they get no results. It's for this reason Wintermelon43's argument of "Marth isn't better than Upper Mid" tier is completely irrelevant, because he gets results. Results prove theory and MU's, and Palutena's results help prove her qualities and ability to perform better in MU's than characters below her (and once again, some characters above her). Even recently, Palutena got 7th in doubles at TBH6, courtesy Iceninja. This is something Dedede didn't/hasn't achieved, and all the characters below her.

So, disregarding all the Palutena talk, and the reasons why she really doesn't deserve to go down, please explain to me why Dedede deserves to move up. Counter my points, prove them wrong, and explain why Dedede should move up, because from my stance, I don't think Dedede has a leg to stand on.

 

[Deleted member]

I've already talked about Dedede.

Palutena deserves to go down because she isn't better than the characters below her. I play Palutena, and she literally feels like low tier. Her specials are awful, and her ending lag makes it feel like she's temporarily disabled whenever she misses an attack. Results seem like the only reason she hasn't moved down yet.

You being total **** at the game doesn't mean that Palutena is a bad character. Hell, I can say doesn't feel like a low tier yet he's still pretty pants.

And remember the post where I counteracted all your points on Dedede and you swiftly ignored it? Good times.

 

[Frihetsanka]

So, disregarding all the Palutena talk, and the reasons why she really doesn't deserve to go down, please explain to me why Dedede deserves to move up. Counter my points, prove them wrong, and explain why Dedede should move up, because from my stance, I don't think Dedede has a leg to stand on.

To be fair, Dedede has nearly no chance of moving up right now. Any upvotes will merely serve to prevent him from going down. In other words, any upvotes help him stay in low-mid tier. Maybe Kirby Dragons thinks that both Palutena and King Dedede belong in Low-mid tier (with Dedede near the bottom of Low-mid and Palutena at the top).

With that being said, I don't necessarily agree with Palutena moving down or Dedede staying. Both are borderline cases.

As for Pac-Man, Sinji got 17th at Apex 2016.

Let's look at Das Koopa's list of results, shall we? September results, top 16: Palutena and Pac-Man both at top 38/39 with 15 points. King Dedede at #46 with 7 points, more than Ike (6 points). What's also interesting is that Ness is #15 with 52.5 points, and Cloud #1 with 167 points. Ryu is #9 with 73 points, which is also interesting, since he's not top tier right now.

If we look at the top 8 list for September, things change a bit. Pac-Man is still #38, but Palutena is #34. Ness is #17, Ryu #10, and Cloud still #1.

If we instead look at top 16 Upper category (only larger tournaments), then things change a lot. Cloud is down to #3, Ryu #19, Ness #20, Pac-Man up to #31, Ike up to #33, Palutena #39, King Dedede #49.

Source: https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...tive-impressions.440784/page-80#post-21479255

These results seem to support both Palutena and Pac-Man in mid tier. Of course, one could easily criticise this data (Das Koopa himself has discussed some of the flaws in it, such as Cloud being overrepresented and thus getting better results than he should have), but it does show that both Palutena and Pac-Man has some results. Also, let's not forget the time when Prince Ramen (Palutena) beat ZeRo (arguably the best player in the world).

 

[Routa]

I'm a person who kinda likes to ignore results when making a tier list mainly due to there being a lot of factors you must look at. For example in Palutena's case the unfamiliar MU is a big factor. Like it or not Palutena is far from common character. Palutena's situation reminds mii (höhöö) from Melee Yoshi from some time ago (is it already over a year? I don't remember) where Yoshi was able to beat many top lvl players even tho Yoshi isn't that amazing in Melee. What was the reason? People weren't prepared for the MU. Main reason why I don't think that Palutena belongs to mid tier is her moveset. Same thing with Pac-Man. Both do have some very good moves, but when you compare their tools to tools of other character in mid tier... Well their tools seem rather lacking.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm a person who kinda likes to ignore results when making a tier list mainly due to there being a lot of factors you must look at. For example in Palutena's case the unfamiliar MU is a big factor. Like it or not Palutena is far from common character. Palutena's situation reminds mii (höhöö) from Melee Yoshi from some time ago (is it already over a year? I don't remember) where Yoshi was able to beat many top lvl players even tho Yoshi isn't that amazing in Melee. What was the reason? People weren't prepared for the MU. Main reason why I don't think that Palutena belongs to mid tier is her moveset. Same thing with Pac-Man. Both do have some very good moves, but when you compare their tools to tools of other character in mid tier... Well their tools seem rather lacking.

Not really, Palutena has players worldwide that have been doing well with her for several months. That's not MU inexperience. Comparing her to Melee Yoshi is a bad comparison because he literally has only one player that's doing well at high level, and that's aMSa. I've also seen people compare her to Pokemon Trainer in this regard and it's just like.. what?

I'm not gonna deny that Palutena has a wonky moveset, but her good tools are really damn good and abusable. Having unblockable/invincible moves is a mechanic you can't **** with, and in tangent with her great mobility, spacing and reward off grab it makes her threatening to fight in spite of her having a good amount of unviable moves.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

There's more than one person using Palutena well... but SSB4 has a larger user base than Brawl did.

Palutena has 2-3 people using her well. The comparison to Pokemon Trainer is not really off base. In fact its pretty accurate. Palutena is not a good character. She's a bad character with a few good moves and can kinda string things together leaning heavily on them. In fact she can use them to take games and sets off of very good players who aren't used to her because there's only 2-3 of her out there... just like what Reflex used to do with PT in Brawl. Its almost the exact same song and dance I'm afraid.

TDK : I don't know for sure. It was a reasonably small window of time, but she was a whole lot stronger. Probably not, but the other characters should be fine for 1.1.5. Very small * next to their results saying "Bayonetta wasn't nerfed yet, results for other characters in 1.1.5. slightly dampened

 

[Deleted member]

Never said Palutena was a good character. She's merely an okay one.

She has more than just 2-3 people doing well with her, these are some notable Palus:

TLTC
Prince Ramen
MM
El_Pitikla (secondary)
IceNinja

All these people tend to perform well in stacked regions and usually make it on PR. The PT comparison is off-base because PT was much more unrewarding than Palu is. It doesn't matter that Brawl had a smaller playerbase or whatever, Palutena is a better built character.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Only heard of three of those before. You can probably guess which three.

PT was plenty rewarding in the right hands. Hence why Reflex was able to do so well with him for so long during Brawl's life cycle. Squirtle as a solo character was freaking high tier and a giant list of tools with shell shenanigans. That's beyond what Palutena can reach.

Palutena ain't even "okay". She's subpar. When you have giant parts of your moveset labeled "never touch in 90% of MUs" and other parts labeled "occasionally use only because we literally have no other option", that's not "okay." She's a subpar character with a few good moves tied onto her that luckily enough flow into each other.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Never said Palutena was a good character. She's merely an okay one.

Interesting. I take it you consider mid tier okay and low-mid tier below okay, and thus consider Palutena mid tier. I'm personally inclined to call many/all Low-mid tier characters okay as well (but with serious flaws).

Let's talk about Pikachu a bit. High tier or high-mid tier? I think Pikachu is underrated by the Smashboards community and overrated by the 4BR. I do think Pikachu is top 20 though, so high tier. It's matchup spread is supposedly pretty good, with wins against Cloud and Captain Falcon (amongst many), and not too many 40-60 matchups (only Mario, according to ESAM). Pikachu's results are not too bad, with 2nd at Shine and 17th at EVO, though the lack of Pikachu players hurts Pikachu's results.

If we look at the older Community tier lists: Version 3, #15. Version 2, #3. Version 1, #3. Pikachu has been either top tier (too high, in my opinion) or high tier for a long time. Moving Pikachu down to high-mid from high tier would need some good arguments, I think.

 

[Samuelwisebaggins]

+
-
-
-
+

 

[Ethan7]

-
-
-
-
-

+ (Can't believe I have to waste a vote on this, but I don't have anything better for a 5th vote)

Marth cannot move down at all unless 3 people vote for him to move down.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Assuming I've counted correctly and no one has edited their vote without me noticing, the following characters are currently moving:

Pikachu from High tier to High-mid tier. Captain Falcon, Lucario, and Dark Pit from High-mid tier to High tier. Kirby, Roy, Palutena, and Mii Gunner from Mid tier to Low-Mid tier. Little Mac from Low-Mid tier to Mid tier. King Dedede from Low-Mid tier to Low tier. Falco from Low tier to Low-Mid tier.

Toon Link is one vote away from moving up to Top tier (which he probably shouldn't, so please don't upvote him anymore), and Mii Swordsfighter is one downvote away from Low tier (sounds reasonable to me).

I think that either Pit should get some upvotes (to High tier) or Dark Pit some downvotes (to High-mid tier). Having Dark Pit in a tier above Pit doesn't strike me as very accurate.

 

[Ethan7]

High tier: [2]

+

I think Toon Link already has enough votes to make it to top tier.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think Toon Link already has enough votes to make it to top tier.

Your comment made me go back and check Toon Link's upvotes, and now I could only find one. Either someone edited away one of the upvotes (which means it's possible I've missed some other character as well) or I accidentally counted Toon Link twice.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Adding a -to my list. He just doesn't have what it takes anymore.

Still holding onto my last vote. If you don't see anything else come up from me consider it a +

Scratch the Sonic bit, make it -

 

[Browny]

- Greninga
- Lucina

... I seriously can't think of anything else right now, its really good already O_o

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Bowserboy3 I'm changing one of my votes, so you know.

I've decided to remove my Charizard downvote because no one was helping me with it, and in its place I've put a countervote:

+

Most of you have heard of iStudying and how well he does. He consistently either wins or loses only to Mr. R (which make sense) in regional tournaments, and against all odds he manages to do the same in national tournaments when there are others there, most notably getting 2nd at B.E.A.S.T. 6 over MVD and ESAM with pre-buff Greninja, as well as 3rd at Syndicate 2016 and several other top 32 placements including Pound 2016 and GOML 2016. But what a lot of people seem to forget is that there are tons of other players repping Greninja, most notably aMSa, Eddy, Elexiao, P2P with Gibus, Some, Techei and Venia, who all place top 8 pretty consistently around the globe and support his rep and results a lot. All of this proves that he has an amazing theory.

Really his only theoretical problem is that he falls fast, making him susceptible to certain combos, but he can always escape combos with Shadow Sneak, so that isn't too bad. His neutral is impressive, with quite high mobility, an amazing projectile in Water Shuriken, a fast walk speed to allow for safer grounded approaches, and a F-air that is very safe on shield. His landing game is pretty good, with a fast fall speed as well as F-air and mixups with D-air, Hydro Pump, and Substitute. His disadvantage state is good, too, with the aforementioned Shadow Sneak to escape combos or multi-hit moves as well as his quick Shuriken and excellent Hydro Pump, which is very fast and can change direction to be unpredictable.

And, of course, his punish game is lethal, with tons of combos that do lots of damage due to him having so many moves that have very little lag, and he can take advantage of footstools to start/extend combos and/or kill. Speaking of killing, he has plenty of ways to do so, including N-air or D-tilt into U-smash, footstool jab lock into forward smash, U-throw 50-50 into U-air (or true combo on platform), U-throw on its own at very high percent, D-throw 50-50 into F-air or a smash, using Shadow Sneak to escape a combo or multi-hit and punish, gimping with Shuriken or Hydro Pump, and occasionally upward Substitute on its own or into U-air.

Is he any higher than the lower part of high tier? Probably not, because it takes an immense grasp of the character and your opponent to take full advantage of all of this. But lower high tier is where he should reside at the moment especially after buffs, and right now I feel like he should be above most of the characters in his tier and alongside some of the ones in the tier above him.

TL;DR Amazing theory with lots of potential, as most of you know. But iStudying isn't the only one doing well with him as some people are led to believe, there are several other players all around the world doing consistently well with him. He deserves high tier, even if only the lower part of it, especially now that some characters might be moving two tiers above him.