Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

[Wintermelon43]

It's not like Little Mac should be so low to begin with.

...You do realize he's in low mid right now right?

 

[QualityQ]

+1
+1
+1
-1
-1

Still think there's a lot of separation to be done in the middle tiers, but again order isn't super important.

 

[FamilyTeam]

...You do realize he's in low mid right now right?

Yeah, that's about where he should be, really. It's not like he should be that much lower.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Yeah, that's about where he should be, really. It's not like he should be that much lower.

He's defitenly low tier. He has no air game at all and has an extremely crappy recovery.

 

[FamilyTeam]

He's defitenly low tier. He has no air game at all and has an extremely crappy recovery.

Cool. Now try challenging him on the ground.
Recovering with Little Mac is a pain, sure, because it's one mistake and you're done. But you can be smart and not let that happen. I've been playing Little Mac as of recently, and with good mixups of recovering low, high, with walljumps, countering obvious edgeguard attempts and just overall not being stupid you can come back.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Sheik and Bayonetta did move up to top tier, so anyone voting for either of them might want to reconsider changing their vote(s), unless you think Sheik and/or Bayonetta deserve to be in a tier above top tier (perhaps you believe top 5 and top 10 should be separated, and that Sheik and/or Bayonetta should be top 5). I will now tag those who voted for either Sheik or Bayonetta in order to get their attention. Do as you wish.

@lbrasz44
@Tizio Random
@Samuelwisebaggins
FamilyTeam
wedl!!
@←/feel.
Munomario777
TDK
Bowserboy3

 

[Wintermelon43]

Cool. Now try challenging him on the ground.
Recovering with Little Mac is a pain, sure, because it's one mistake and you're done. But you can be smart and not let that happen. I've been playing Little Mac as of recently, and with good mixups of recovering low, high, with walljumps, countering obvious edgeguard attempts and just overall not being stupid you can come back.

Rarely come back. Note:Rarely.

He IS hard to challenge on the ground, but once you do get in he's taking a lot of damage, if not outright dieing because he can't really land and can't prevent himself from getting gimped.

 

[apparently fuz]

Bayonetta in top tier? Now that's what I like to see.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Bayonetta in top tier? Now that's what I like to see.

Seeing how hyped she's been recently, I'd be surprised if she didn't end up at least top 7 at the end of this voting period.

 

[apparently fuz]

Seeing how hyped she's been recently, I'd be surprised if she didn't end up at least top 7 at the end of this voting period.

Results sway opinions, that's how it works. Glad now people are beginning to catch on how stupid Bayo still is because I've been saying it for months lmao.

 

[Munomario777]

+
+
+
+
+

Edited vote to account for Sheik actually being in top tier already.

 

[Ethan7]

+
+
-Should not be a tier above top tier.(Edited: was a down-vote to Samus)
-Same as Bayonetta (Edited: was a down-vote to Bowser Jr.)
-

 

[Deleted member]

+
+
-
-
-

What's the Shulk downvote for?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Results sway opinions, that's how it works.

In most cases, that is...

 

[Ethan7]

What's the Shulk downvote for?

Lol. Well, I'm considering the tier he's in mid tier. I will down-vote others as well.

Why did you up-vote him? Is he in the same tier as the characters above him?

 

[apparently fuz]

In most cases, that is...

Even then Marth has been consistently getting solid results as of late. When the last batch of Marth buffs arrived, people still thought he still needed some changes (be it ironically or unironically) to be a competent tournament threat. Now here we are, with him being perceived as a potential top tier.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Even then Marth has been consistently getting solid results as of late. When the last batch of Marth buffs arrived, people still thought he still needed some changes (be it ironically or unironically) to be a competent tournament threat. Now here we are, with him being perceived as a potential top tier.

BB3 was referring to the dispute within this topic where someone was repeatedly downvoting Marth while everyone else debated him on the topic of Marth's tier placement.

 

[Bowserboy3]

BB3 was referring to the dispute within this topic where someone was repeatedly downvoting Marth while everyone else debated him on the topic of Marth's tier placement.

But apparently fuz makes an incredibly relevant point; regardless of who it is, if a character is getting results consistently, they are clearly good in some way or another.

Even then Marth has been consistently getting solid results as of late. When the last batch of Marth buffs arrived, people still thought he still needed some changes (be it ironically or unironically) to be a competent tournament threat. Now here we are, with him being perceived as a potential top tier.

I will say however, that Marth still has some flaws in his moveset, that arguably still need fixing, as minor as they are; Fair is still incredibly laggy for one reason or another, and a simple boost to the AC frames (make it the same as Bair) would be fine, and an actual useful throw would not go a miss either, giving Marth a decent way to pressure shields (I'm not even saying give him something OP, but even Fthrow to combo into 1 aerial until around 50% would be nice). Fixing a couple of his obvious deadspots on his moves would also not go a miss (Fair and Uair getting 1 more active frame for example). Dash Attack also sucks, but i'd be fine with Dash Attack having no real use if the other things got fixed.

Marth's in a position where Mewtwo was in back in 1.1.3; Mewtwo received some more minor buffs in 1.1.5, that arguably helped him flow together better even better, despite him being perceived as a strong character before. They are in reality, fair changes, as were Mewtwo's from 1.1.5.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Okay, so, let's take a look at what the tier list looks like now, shall we?

Top tier-
High tier-
High-mid tier-
Mid tier-
Low-mid tier-

Top tier looks pretty good, although there are a few characters that obviously should be top tier and are still stuck in high tier. Diddy, Cloud, Rosaluma, and Zero Suit Samus are obvious examples. Ryo might be top tier as well. Once they leave high tier would be somewhat empty, and I think several high-mid tier characters should move up to high tier. High-mid tier looks pretty good. Donkey Kong should probably move up, and Ike should probably move down. Should R.O.B. be high-mid tier?

A lot of characters need to drop to low-mid tier, and a low tier should be created for characters like Jigglypuff, Ganondorf, and Zelda.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Really not gonna change my votes. I do believe the tier list is shaping up nicely, atleast.
But I doubt Bayo should be so high up.

 

[Frihetsanka]

But I doubt Bayo should be so high up.

It seems somewhat likely that we'll see a tier above top tier (Not sure what to call it, top tier+, über tier, top-top tier, smash tier?) with Bayonetta in it, and possibly Sheik as well (but no other characters right now). I'm against it. I think both Bayonetta and Sheik are really good characters, but not strong enough to warrant being a tier above these characters: Sonic, Mario, Diddy Kong, Cloud, Zero Suit Samus, Rosalina & Luma, Fox, and Mewtwo. I think these ten should all be the same tier (top tier). Ryu could potentially be top tier as well; I'm not sure whether he's at the bottom of top tier or at the top of high tier.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

+1
-1

 

[QualityQ]

(Not sure what to call it, top tier+, über tier, top-top tier, smash tier?)

Call it 'Greater top tier' and 'Lesser top tier.' (?) Although I would split it as Top Tier, Greater High Tier, High Tier and Lesser High Tier, in that order,

I would say I'm for it. There are some top tiers that have much better matchup spreads than others, and some that have very terrible matchups for other characters. This allows for organization in that some top tiers can be 'counterpicked' hard, while others have a gameplan that is pretty much independent of who their opponent is. I would say their is enough differential nowadays to warrant some top tiers as better than others, even though all the top tiers are solid picks.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Top tier-
High tier-
High-mid tier-
Mid tier-
Low-mid tier-

A lot of characters need to drop to low-mid tier, and a low tier should be created for characters like Jigglypuff, Ganondorf, and Zelda

Just a reminder to all that nothing is set in stone and more tiers can be created (in theory, some still need to be created; the two "mid" tiers are still far too large).

 

[Frihetsanka]

Votes thus far (if you edit your vote, it would be nice if you showed who you edited out and who you edited in):

Top tier: [2][1][0]
Moving up to Top tier: [4][3]
High tier: [2][0][-1]
Moving up to High tier: [4][3]
High-mid tier: [2][1][0]
Moving up to High-mid tier: [6][3]
Mid tier: [2][1][0][-1][-2]
Mowing down to Low-mid tier: [-4]
Low-mid tier: [2][0][-1]
Moving down to Low tier: [-3]


After this round, it seems fairly likely that we might see a new Low tier created, which makes sense; characters like Jigglypuff and Ganondorf should not be in Low-mid tier. It's possible we might see two new overlords in a new Top tier category. Personally, I hope we won't, since I think the difference between, say, Bayonetta and Rosalina & Luma in power isn't that great, or Bayonetta and Fox.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I personally think more tiers is easier to rank and separate characters. I like how the 4BR seperates their lists.

While they technically only have 5 different tiers, they are broken into 9 different sub categories, broken down as follows:

S and A tiers: Top Tier
B and C tiers: High Tier
D and E tiers: Mid Tier
F and G tiers: Low Tier
H tier: Bottom Tier

You can see how they broke it down here: http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_SSB4_tier_lists_(NTSC)#Second_tier_list_.28August_22.2C_2016.29

Essentially, each row is a tier, so Diddy to Bayonetta is top tier, despite only ZSS to Bayonetta being A tier.

I'd be more than up for splitting characters within tiers like this. What I don't want to end up with is huge amounts of characters in one split, so to speak. As balanced as the game is, not every character is on the same power level, and things like results separate the gaps even more.

Essentially, we'll be able to account for things like this...

It's possible we might see two new overlords in a new Top tier category. Personally, I hope we won't, since I think the difference between, say, Bayonetta and Rosalina & Luma in power isn't that great, or Bayonetta and Fox.

... a whole lot easier.

What I'm saying is, we could even just have something like 5 tiers, but I'd like it if we can make splits, in a similar fashion to the 4BR's tier list.

But, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. For now, and for the foreseeable future, we'll be voting like this. In maybe a few more rounds, once we get something resembling a tier list with a few more tiers, I'll change the voting system to just 3 votes a piece to stop radical movements. For now, we need to see some movement, so it's fine.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I personally think more tiers is easier to rank and separate characters. I like how the 4BR seperates their lists.

While they technically only have 5 different tiers, they are broken into 9 different sub categories, broken down as follows:

S and A tiers: Top Tier
B and C tiers: High Tier
D and E tiers: Mid Tier
F and G tiers: Low Tier
H tier: Bottom Tier

You can see how they broke it down here: http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_SSB4_tier_lists_(NTSC)#Second_tier_list_.28August_22.2C_2016.29

Essentially, each row is a tier, so Diddy to Bayonetta is top tier, despite only ZSS to Bayonetta being A tier.

I'd be more than up for splitting characters within tiers like this. What I don't want to end up with is huge amounts of characters in one split, so to speak. As balanced as the game is, not every character is on the same power level, and things like results separate the gaps even more.

I think we need three tiers just to cover mid tiers, since around half of the cast fall into some sort of mid tier (in my opinion). I think around 10-11 characters fall in top tier, and around 10-11 in high. This leaves not that many characters for low tier or bottom tier, which is pretty good when you think about it. I think bottom tier would just be 2-5 characters and the rest would be in low tier, if we even need a bottom tier at all; after all, even Jigglypuff got some results lately.

I'm not a big fan of how 4BR does it. Zero Suit Samus and Bayonetta should be in the same tier as the rest of the S-tiers, which leaves just two characters in A tier. At that point, it might be better to just put Mewtwo in the same top tier (although perhaps at the bottom of it) and Ryu in high tier (or at the bottom of top tier). Since tiers will eventually be ordered it's fine.

I'm more okay with splitting high tier, since I think there's more of a difference between, say, Mega Man and Captain Falcon than between top tiers. Mid should be split into three tiers. I think, if we look at the 4BR list, that all of the F-tier characters should be low-mid and some of them even mid (Link might even be high-mid), and some of the G-tiers should be low-mid. I think, for instance, Wii Fit Trainer is decent enough to fall under "low-mid" rather than low.

We need a minimum of 6 tiers, 3 of which should be for mid. We could go with 7 or maybe even 8, but I think 6 might be the ideal number, given the current state of balance. Top tier characters are fairly balanced in relation to each others (and too strong when compared to the rest of the crew, but I digress). High tiers have a bit more flunctuation, so we could split high tier into two, I suppose. That way we could put characters like Ness and Corrin in low high tier, and characters like Mega Man and Meta Knight in high-high tier*.

*Some might argue that we should call it "upper high tier". I would say that choosing silly names is kind of a tradition. "Hoo-hah", "ding-dong", etc. High-high tier seems fitting.

TL;dr: Around 50% of the characters fall into some sort of "mid" tier, so it would be a good idea to have three mid tiers. Around 16% fall into top tier, around 16% into high tier, and around 18% into low/bottom.

 

[Munomario777]

Do we really need to avoid putting a lot of characters in a tier, though? This game is incredibly balanced compared to past entries, and spreading characters out across a lot of separate tiers is a misrepresentation of that – at least given the context of what a tier means in other games. In my opinion, the tiers should be:

Top tier – the best of the best. These characters see a lot of tournament results, have exceptionally solid theory, or are otherwise very notable. 10-15 characters.
High tier – the runners up. These fighters still see a good amount of tournament results, but are not as prevalent as top tier characters are. ~10 characters.
Mid tier – the middle of the pack. Characters in this tier see decent results and have good kits, but still fall behind high tier, and are very average. ~15 characters.
Low tier – the laggards. Fighters in this tier see low representation and are comparatively weak, but still have some tricks up their sleeve. 10-15 characters.
Bottom tier – the bottom of the barrel. This tier is for fighters like Ganon or Jiggs, who lack many tools at all and are the truly bad contenders. 5-8 characters.

This accounts for all general positions of characters within the current metagame, and shows how a lot of these characters are on equal footing with one another. Additional tiers would serve only to misrepresent the gaps between characters by putting them on entirely different levels, which is often inaccurate. If separation is necessary, it could be accomplished by a separation in the middle of a tier.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Do we really need to avoid putting a lot of characters in a tier, though? This game is incredibly balanced compared to past entries, and spreading characters out across a lot of separate tiers is a misrepresentation of that – at least given the context of what a tier means in other games.

I agree with this. A lot of character are viable and decent, many are good, even. There should be some limits, of course (having 20 characters in one tier would be messy, for instance).

In my opinion, the tiers should be:

Top tier

– the best of the best. These characters see a lot of tournament results, have exceptionally solid theory, or are otherwise very notable. 10-15 characters.

Agreed. I think they should be 10 right now, maybe 11 if Ryu qualifier.

High tier

– the runners up. These fighters still see a good amount of tournament results, but are not as prevalent as top tier characters are. ~10 characters.

High tier should be around 10-13 characters right now, I think, depending on who one thinks qualifies.

Mid tier

– the middle of the pack. Characters in this tier see decent results and have good kits, but still fall behind high tier, and are very average. ~15 characters.

I think mid tier is more like 25-30 characters or so, so it really needs to be divided into tiers. I suggest 3 tiers (high-mid, mid, and low-mid).

Low tier

– the laggards. Fighters in this tier see low representation and are comparatively weak, but still have some tricks up their sleeve. 10-15 characters.
Bottom tier – the bottom of the barrel. This tier is for fighters like Ganon or Jiggs, who lack many tools at all and are the truly bad contenders. 5-8 characters.

I don't think there need to be this many characters in low/bottom, and I'll explain why.

Let's look at the characters ZeRo thinks are low/bottom. Link, Samus, Little Mac, Bowser Jr., King Dedede, Miis, Ganondorf, Zelda, Jigglypuff. 11 characters. Link obviously shouldn't be low tier, so that's 10 characters. Sol would argue that Little Mac is around top 30 or so, and I think Little Mac is, at worst, low-mid. 9 characters. I'm personally inclined to believe that Samus and King Dedede are low-mid rather than low/bottom, but I'll leave them at low for now. 9 characters in low and bottom. I suppose we would have 4 in low and 5 in bottom. I suppose that's fine, though I'm not a fan of having such small tiers.

I kind of like ZeRo's way of doing tiers better than 4BR's. I disagree with some of the placements, but the amount of tiers look pretty good, and he's more optimistic than 4BR, which I think is more accurate (4BR's list is too pesimistic, Smash 4 is more balanced than they give it credit for). Maybe we should just use his model and have these tiers:

Top (~11)
High (~11)
Upper (~11)
Mid (~15)
Low (~4)
Bottom (~5)

I kind of like that model, actually. The downside is that terms like "high-mid" and "low-mid" would have to go. "Upper" would essentially be what high-mid is now, and mid would be a combination of mid and low-mid (So Kirby and Wii Fit Trainer would be mid rather than low-mid, for instance). For the time being, I will stick with high-mid, mid, and low-mid. If enough people want to use "Upper" I'll switch to that.

 

[Bigbomb2]

+ Personally find Falcon the low end of high tier
+ Still a great character despite some approaching issues. Also makes a nasty counter pick against floaties
+ Recovery blows, but a smart player isn't just going to let you throw them off. Just if he does fall he's boned
+ :> He's got the tools, missing the rep imo. Like, half the cast is like that.
+ Even if everyone is figuring out how to fight him with their mains, he's still fantastic. Plus he's a staple in doubles.

 

[wedl!!]

Really not gonna change my votes. I do believe the tier list is shaping up nicely, atleast.
But I doubt Bayo should be so high up.

Bayonetta has ****ing free options for pretty much every situation.

There is no reason she should be near the same tier as Ryu and Toon Link.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Top tier is starting to look pretty good. Maybe Ryu belongs there as well, although I'm not sure. I think I'll vote for some high tiers this round.

+1: Meta Knight is obviously high tier.
+1: Lucario should qualify for high tier as well, even if it's not obvious.
+1: I'm not sure about Greninja, but I'm leaning towards lower end of high tier.
+1: I think Captain Falcon should be low high tier, though I could see him in high high-mid tier as well.
+1: Corrin should be low high tier, I think.

Edit:
-1: Jigglypuff is low tier at best.
-1: Zelda can do some pretty cool stuff when played right, but she has some major flaws that makes me think she's still a low tier character.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Bayonetta has ****ing free options for pretty much every situation.

There is no reason she should be near the same tier as Ryu and Toon Link.

I was referring to her being both in her own tier and first place. That seems like a big stretch.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I was referring to her being both in her own tier and first place. That seems like a big stretch.

Tiers are not ordered right now, so she might've been in second place. Though some people downvoted her and Sheik so they're now "just" in top tier (which is probably for the best).

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Basing this off of Frihetsanka recent list of votes so far
- ( i dont think hes smack in the middle of mid tier)
-
-( grabs popcorn )
-
+

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Alright, I've decided my final vote and added it to my original post:

+1
Most of you have heard of iStudying and how well he does. He consistently either wins or loses only to Mr. R (which make sense) in regional tournaments, and against all odds he manages to do the same in national tournaments when there are others there, most notably getting 2nd at B.E.A.S.T. 6 over MVD and ESAM with pre-buff Greninja, as well as 3rd at Syndicate 2016 and several other top 32 placements including Pound 2016 and GOML 2016. But what a lot of people seem to forget is that there are tons of other players repping Greninja, most notably aMSa, Eddy, Elexiao, P2P with Gibus, Some, Techei and Venia, who all place top 8 pretty consistently around the globe and support his rep and results a lot. All of this proves that he has an amazing theory.

Really his only theoretical problem is that he falls fast, making him susceptible to certain combos, but he can always escape combos with Shadow Sneak, so that isn't too bad. His neutral is impressive, with quite high mobility, an amazing projectile in Water Shuriken, a fast walk speed to allow for safer grounded approaches, and a F-air that is very safe on shield. His landing game is pretty good, with a fast fall speed as well as F-air and mixups with D-air, Hydro Pump, and Substitute. His disadvantage state is good, too, with the aforementioned Shadow Sneak to escape combos or multi-hit moves as well as his quick Shuriken and excellent Hydro Pump, which is very fast and can change direction to be unpredictable.

And, of course, his punish game is lethal, with tons of combos that do lots of damage due to him having so many moves that have very little lag, and he can take advantage of footstools to start/extend combos and/or kill. Speaking of killing, he has plenty of ways to do so, including N-air or D-tilt into U-smash, footstool jab lock into forward smash, U-throw 50-50 into U-air (or true combo on platform), U-throw on its own at very high percent, D-throw 50-50 into F-air or a smash, using Shadow Sneak to escape a combo or multi-hit and punish, gimping with Shuriken or Hydro Pump, and occasionally upward Substitute on its own or into U-air.

Is he any higher than the lower part of high tier? Probably not, because it takes an immense grasp of the character and your opponent to take full advantage of all of this. But lower high tier is where he should reside at the moment especially after buffs, and right now I feel like he should be above most of the characters in his tier and alongside some of the ones in the tier above him.

 

[TDK]

-

you're going to need to explain this one. Link has much better results than any low-tier (and some mid-tiers), and I'm really not following you here.

Examples of results:
T - Second at Umebura 24
T - 9th at Umebura SAT
T - 5th at Sumabato for THE BIG HOUSE
T - Beat Ranai (2-0)
Cat - 13th at Syndicate 2016
Scizor - 3rd at Key to the PG house

And that's just the past few months and only the top 3 Links. Add on a lot of regional-level top 8 and 16s and Link has More results than any character in the mid tier section.

 

[Deleted member]

you're going to need to explain this one. Link has much better results than any low-tier (and some mid-tiers), and I'm really not following you here.

Examples of results:
T - Second at Umebura 24
T - 9th at Umebura SAT
T - 5th at Sumabato for THE BIG HOUSE
T - Beat Ranai (2-0)
Cat - 13th at Syndicate 2016
Scizor - 3rd at Key to the PG house

And that's just the past few months and only the top 3 Links. Add on a lot of regional-level top 8 and 16s and Link has More results than any character in the mid tier section.

>>>>counting a wifi tournament

also I mean, it's his vote. I'm not disagreeing with you here but yeah

 

[TDK]

>>>>counting a wifi tournament

also I mean, it's his vote. I'm not disagreeing with you here but yeah

Said Wifi tournament had people like Wrath, Zan, the wall, and Raffi-X in it but I get your point. Link also has this stigma of "lol link arrow spammer" still so I want to see if people have any actual reasoning beyond that and "just use toon link" to vote him down.

 

[Wintermelon43]

you're going to need to explain this one. Link has much better results than any low-tier (and some mid-tiers), and I'm really not following you here.

Examples of results:
T - Second at Umebura 24
T - 9th at Umebura SAT
T - 5th at Sumabato for THE BIG HOUSE
T - Beat Ranai (2-0)
Cat - 13th at Syndicate 2016
Scizor - 3rd at Key to the PG house

And that's just the past few months and only the top 3 Links. Add on a lot of regional-level top 8 and 16s and Link has More results than any character in the mid tier section.

Yes, he does get good results, but would you call him upper mid tier? I don't think anyone excpet Radicial Larry thinks that.