Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

[Frihetsanka]

For this tier list, are we looking at 1v1s or a combination of 1v1 and 2v2?

I think that's pretty important information for voting. It might also explain why we just sent Ike down only to send him back up immediately after.

1v1s only. I personally don't think Ike is high-mid tier, though h

Will there not be more definition in the tiers such a low mid and high mid or is it still too early for that? Apologies if I mis-read anything.

I'd still put her in mid tier for the time being even so. I really think she's heavily slept on

We might not see any official tiers, but I'd say it's currently:

High (Diddy Kong, Cloud, etc)
High-mid (Mewtwo, Mario, etc)
Mid (Bowser, Donkey Kong, etc)
Low-mid (Zelda, Falco, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff)

For the time being, I recommend upvoting high-tiers to create a top tier, and low-mid tiers to create a low tier. More tiers might be created later on, though; perhaps a bottom tier, perhaps two top tiers, who knows? I personally prefer having 6-7 tiers.

Envoy of Chaos : I suggest you watch some Ranai Villager games. I think Ranai proves that Villager belongs in high tier.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Until Zelda can force approaches whatsoever and not have two Knees as her spacing aerials, she'll always be bottom 5.

There are a few characters that have trouble or can't force an approach, Zelda doesn't have a lot to force approaches aside Phantom and she doesn't have any spacing aerials. She's very slow and doesn't get around the stage well, She quite light and dies early, it's hard for her to escape pressure even with Naryu's, missing a sweet spot on her aerials is dangerous, especially on shield. Her cons outweigh her pros for sure but she does have some good things going for her. Unlike other bottom tiers she can get kills without relying heavily on reads with her strong grab game and great ledge guarding tools. Her tilts are great, her moves hit hard with sweetspots, she's not easy to ledge guard. My opinion on Zelda changed largely due to watching Purple Guy/Ed a Floridian Zelda main he fares very well with her in a good region. I should has read the current round's rules instead of assuming that tiers would get more defined so I was voting to place her in low rather than bottom I do apologize for the confusion.

Frihetsanka thank you I assumed the tiers would be split into Top, High, Mid-High and so on so I read Villager as a top tier by mistake. He's definitely a high tier for sure Ranai, MJG, and a few others whose names escape me do very well with him.

 

[Djmarcus44]

+1
+1
+1
+1
+1

Wanted to ask a ? that's probably been asked before but I could never strictly find it.

For this tier list, are we looking at 1v1s or a combination of 1v1 and 2v2?

I think that's pretty important information for voting. It might also explain why we just sent Ike down only to send him back up immediately after.

This tier list is only for 1v1. The main reason why Ike was voted down just to get voted up was because voters didn't realize how far Ike was voted down in the last voting period.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Votes thus far:

Moving up to top tier: [3][10(from high-mid)]
High tier: [1][0][-1]
Moving up to high tier: [4][3]
High-mid tier: [2][1][0][-1][-2]
Moving up to high-mid tier: [+4][+3]
Mid tier: [2][1][0][-1][-2]
Moving down to low-mid tier: [-6][-4][-3]
Low-mid tier: [2][1][0][-1]

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Explain to me how Dedede is the most underrated character in the game. I'd love to hear considering you upvote him yet downvote Palutena every round.

People consider him one of the worst because of his frame data, and they never even look at any of his good traits. I find several of his moves, such as back air, underrated. The hammer has huge hitboxes in basically all of his moves. He is one of the hardest to kill characters, if not the hardest to kill.

Frame data makes it hard to land hits, yes, yet this is balanced by sheer range and damage of just landing one hit. His grab is also massive. Honestly, you can do some pretty crazy things with Dedede. He's IMO higher low-tier.

Jdawg is the only main I can think of. People probably wouldn't be putting him so low if they had more good footage of him.

 

[Deleted member]

People consider him one of the worst because of his frame data, and they never even look at any of his good traits. I find several of his moves, such as back air, underrated. The hammer has huge hitboxes in basically all of his moves. He is one of the hardest to kill characters, if not the hardest to kill.

Frame data makes it hard to land hits, yes, yet this is balanced by sheer range and damage of just landing one hit. His grab is also massive. Honestly, you can do some pretty crazy things with Dedede. He's IMO higher low-tier.

Jdawg is the only main I can think of. People probably wouldn't be putting him so low if they had more good footage of him.

You're talking to somebody who used to be the one of the best Dededes in Florida, so I have the need to correct your statements.
His grab range is actually pretty unimpressive, especially compared to the likes of & . He also has no kill throws and only a mediocre combo throw to loses to DI away. His hitboxes are for the most part absolute garbage, so I don't know what you mean by "huge hitboxes" on all of his moves. You can look at this thread to see what I mean.

Being hard to skill doesn't mean squat if you can't reliably approach or finish off your opponent yourself. This character loses hard as **** to shield. He only has two moves that have frame advantage on shield: bair and fsmash. One is easily predicted and can be played around and another is one of the worst moves in the entire game. His damage output is also underwhelming compared to other heavies especially with their reward off grab or converting off one weak hit of theirs. The only reason Dedede ever places well is because literally nobody knows the matchup and D3 can have some unusual aspects about him that first-timers don't know how to get past the first time around.

Even with his miserable frame data and heavily limited options in neutral, his matchup spread especially against most high/top tiers is awful. being the main culprits.

 

[QualityQ]

Alright then, for my vote:

+1
+1
-1
+1
-1

Most of these seem pretty straightforward. Can't say much about Dedede since I don't know/play him well, but I'd be happy to discuss my votes.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Just to point out, this Tier List is 1v1 mainly.

However, when it comes later down the line, for voting in tiers, lets say and are in the same tier. If, when ordering the tiers, you want to state that "Actually, Puff is better than Zelda in doubles, so she should be higher than her in the tier", then that's acceptable.

Just be aware that the list is almost 100% based on a 1v1 environment.

 

[Frihetsanka]

+1

[...]I'd be happy to discuss my votes.

Why do you think Dark Pit (and Pit as well?) is high tier?

 

[wedl!!]

+
+
+
-
-

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Boy that Marth sure ain't high tier. Ain't like he won Glitch 2 with noticeable names like Pink Flesh, Tweek, Seagull Joe, Mekos, False, 6WX and 8bitman there or anything like that.

And then a shared 2nd at Sumabato on top of that. Shared with a Villager that was only used for a handful of games.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Everyday that passes, Marth just seems to prove his worth more.

 

[Deleted member]

is bound to be a high tier or better in every Smash game he appears in. One way or the other.

 

[Wintermelon43]

is bound to be a high tier or better in every Smash game he appears in. One way or the other.

Odd, he's already not high tier in one smash game already (Smash 4). He was even bottom tier when the game first came out (Although he was buffed to upper mid)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Bowserboy3 Don't count Watermelon's votes. Dude doesn't even have a goal post where he'll admit Marth is high tier, let along the fact that his results have been high tier level consistently for months. Pretty much has to be trolling at this point, he got half tossed out of the Competitive Discussion topic by Shaya a while back for this.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Bowserboy3 Don't count Watermelon's votes. Dude doesn't even have a goal post where he'll admit Marth is high tier, let along the fact that his results have been high tier level consistently for months. Pretty much has to be trolling at this point, he got half tossed out of the Competitive Discussion topic by Shaya a while back for this.

Lol whut? I'm not trolling lol.

Marth isn't good enough to be high tier. His matchups are too poor and he isn't theortictially good enough.

Also it's Wintermelon not Watermelon

Edit:Also Shaya never banned me what are you talking about?

 

[wedl!!]

Marth isn't good enough to be high tier. His matchups are too poor and he isn't theortictially good enough.

Results support "theory".

Marth's results do not support your theoretical perspective on his viability. Therefore, the theory is incorrect.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Results support "theory".

Marth's results do not support your theoretical perspective on his viability.

Which is a big shock. But there are results better than expected based on viability, and worse as well. Marth's results are still not enough to support him being high tier based on matchup spread and theory

 

[FamilyTeam]

Come on, Winter... You should know better than this. You have me on Discord, you know I play Lucina and that I know a bunch of people who play Marcina, you don't need to say this kind of uninformed guff.

 

[wedl!!]

Which is a big shock. But there are results better than expected based on viability, and worse as well. Marth's results are still not enough to support him being high tier based on matchup spread and theory

You do not see a chemical reaction result in an explosion when you theorize it will just cause smoke and say "yeah, this is fine".

You change the theory to adapt to your current knowledge of the interaction.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Come on, Winter... You should know better than this. You have me on Discord, you know I play Lucina and that I know a bunch of people who play Marcina, you don't need to say this kind of uninformed guff.

"Uninformed" sounds like the entire community when it comes to Marth. Because people seem to not be able to accept that Marth may not be as good as he was before.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Problem here is that you somehow think you understand more about Marcina than we Marcina mains do, and then proceed to make such absolute statements like those when, in reality, you don't actually know what you're talking about. Try seeing things from our eyes: all we are seeing is someone speaking what to us sounds like a bunch of nonsense.

 

[Deleted member]

To trail off this subject, I made a document of Shulk's tournament results.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Wintermelon always brings up Marcina's Matchups when he talks about their viability.I decided to make my own MU chart for Lucina myself, and in it, I had only 6 losing matchups, all 45:55. They were of Top 15 characters and above, sure, but the matchups are in no way unmanageable, and, well, I still wonder about a few of them, such as...
Vs. Diddy: This sounds like a Bad matchup to lose against, considering most see him as the best in the game. But come on, we all watched Aba's saga yesterday. Nairo's average-at-best Lucina really made Zero's Diddy get a run for his money. You could argue that the game he got 2 stocked was just due to surprise factor, but Zero still had a hard time beating him even in the following games. This seriously started making me wonder if we cannot work to make this matchup become Even in the future.
By the way, you cannot use MU unfamiliarity as a reason, here. If you can play against Marth, you can play against Lucina.

 

[Deleted member]

Wintermelon always brings up Marcina's Matchups when he talks about their viability.I decided to make my own MU chart for Lucina myself, and in it, I had only 6 losing matchups, all 45:55. They were of Top 15 characters and above, sure, but the matchups are in no way unmanageable, and, well, I still wonder about a few of them, such as...
Vs. Diddy: This sounds like a Bad matchup to lose against, considering most see him as the best in the game. But come on, we all watched Aba's saga yesterday. Nairo's average-at-best Lucina really made Zero's Diddy get a run for his money. You could argue that the game he got 2 stocked was just due to surprise factor, but Zero still had a hard time beating him even in the following games. This seriously started making me wonder if we cannot work to make this matchup become Even in the future.
By the way, you cannot use MU unfamiliarity as a reason, here. If you can play against Marth, you can play against Lucina.

Shaya just made a post in CCI as to how Marth/Diddy could be even like it was in Brawl as time goes on. To be honest I can see his viewpoint.

Also, is slight disadvantage for Marth(cina) as well. He's outside the top 15. debatably isn't fun either.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Lol whut? I'm not trolling lol.

Marth isn't good enough to be high tier. His matchups are too poor and he isn't theortictially good enough.

Also it's Wintermelon not Watermelon

Edit:Also Shaya never banned me what are you talking about?

I said half-tossed you out. Threw up a wall explaining why you were wrong, told you to quit it, and then your posting over there significantly dropped.

But to add onto what others have said here: you keep acting like you know more about the character then the people who actually play them. And then vaguely go "the theory doesn't support it" when there is no evidence that the theory doesn't support it (and the few times you tried to explain your theory in the competitive topic, it got ripped apart). Theory does not ignore results, not consistent ones. A one off spike? Sure, that can happen by fluke. When a character gets months of results far above what your theory says? No, that proves the theory is wrong. MU inexperience no longer holds water. The back and forth of figuring out MUs has happened for several cycles at least. Research into the character has been done by opponents.

Theory has to have a way to be wrong, otherwise its not theory at all. Its stubborn opinion trying to be passed off as logical. If it can't be proven wrong, its not logical. Its irrelevant. Meaningless.

To put it another way: I freaking hate Corrin and think he's grossly overrated. I've still moved him up in my mental tier list because his results, while not what I consider high tier (largely due to having a very high bar for high tier as I believe there's a loooot of characters in upper mid tier that will have wildly varying results) he's right in the top section of mid tier and frankly probably not that far off from where most people consider him. Probably within 5 spots. I had him lower, but he's getting more frequent (but still not consistent) results at a top level. Thus, I've changed my theory accordingly. Because that's logical. You read the output data (results), look at the variables within it (secondary usage, strength of opponents at the location, any unusual factors like particularly bad management), and then compare it to your theory. If it doesn't line up, you must change your theory.

It doesn't perfectly match the results ranking of course, there is room for variance like say, not running into the character's one particularly horrible MU in a particular region. But when a character is consistently getting top 15 in top 8 weighted results for months, theory must change. If it doesn't, it was never theory to begin with and thus meaningless.

tl;dr: tier lists are a reflection of the current metagame. Currently, Marth is high tier. This is not refutable, opinions about the distant future has no value. Any opinion that thinks otherwise is not theory at all and is meaningless.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Even though many of you may know I am all for Marth discussion, let's put it to bed for now. Luckily, Wintermelon43 alone isn't going to prevent Marth from being in his rightful place.

A character that has overall good matchups, a decent neutral, strong representation, and the overall 15th best results total in 1.1.6, yet he's still mid tier?

To but it bluntly, it just does not add up.

But you mention matchups frequently... OK, so lets look at the actual confirmed bad matchups for Marth.

There's , a confirmed bad/tough matchup. Then there's , and , but even these MU's have all been shown by Marth's top players to be doable. Then there are some iffy ones that could be either-or, like and .

So, lets just consider them all bad. What's that, 5 bad matchups? Wow, not many huh?

Marth handles lots of the top tiers better than most characters in the game; he handles Mario and Cloud really well, much better than some of the other top tiers, for example. Other MU's are being figured out too; Shaya recently discussed how Diddy could theoretically be even too, which is better than a huge amount of the cast's MU's with Diddy.

But in short, in a metagame still in it's infancy, we can't use MU's as the biggest proving factor to determine viability. Most MU's in the game are still being figured out, with most of the above MU's being shown to be certainly not confirmed in the slightest, with most of them being much better than initially thought. As such, results are almost always the deciding factor right now. And even with this, Marth has one of the best results totals of this patch.

Once again, your "theory" and opinion don't add up.

To end...

Marth may not be as good as he was before.

That is 100% true. Marth in Melee and Brawl is among the top 5. Marth in Smash 4 is considered to be hovering around the 15th spot. That is not as good as before.

Diddy isn't as good as in Brawl, but he's still good. Fox was objectively nerfed from Brawl to Smash 4. Heck, look at Meta Knight; heavily nerfed, but still a very strong character.

Just because a character isn't as good as they were in another game, it doesn't mean they can't be a top/high tier pick.

Any more discussion on this topic of Marth until at least a couple more days have passed, and I will ignore your votes. It sometimes deters new voters from voting. If you want to discuss Marth, go to the Marth Boards where the Marth players there will explain what makes Marth tick, and why he's a strong pick in the current metagame.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Any more discussion on this topic until at least a couple more days have passed, and I will ignore your votes.

Just to clarify: Is "this topic" the topic of Marth, or "topic" as in "thread"? May we discuss other things, or is all discussion banned for two days?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Just to clarify: Is "this topic" the topic of Marth, or "topic" as in "thread"? May we discuss other things, or is all discussion banned for two days?

Just the topic of Marth; it's getting too heated.

 

[Routa]

Please vote on the list at the time of voting. While you can vote based on what you like, things such as "X character will probably get votes later so I'm down voting now etc" isn't the best way to do it.

I will just put this here again to remind people.

Also was "countervoting" allowed? Like for example if character has gained -3 points to get put into lower tier... Is it "ok" to person up vote that character to avoid it to be lower in the tier list?

And yeah my english sucks, but you get my point.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Also was "countervoting" allowed? Like for example if character has gained -3 points to get put into lower tier... Is it "ok" to person up vote that character to avoid it to be lower in the tier list?

Yes, it's allowed.

Q) Should I vote depending on what other people are voting on?
A) As @Browny put it - "I used to care about this and say no, but then that would go against my idea of being able to vote on literally whatever you want. So go ahead and vote on whatever you feel like, even if that means counter votes."

 

[Deleted member]

I don't understand why is falling down to low tier when her results have been improving for a good chunk of this year.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I don't understand why is falling down to low tier when her results have been improving for a good chunk of this year.

She's falling down to low-mid tier. She's currently mid tier.

Frihetsanka thank you I assumed the tiers would be split into Top, High, Mid-High and so on so I read Villager as a top tier by mistake. He's definitely a high tier for sure Ranai, MJG, and a few others whose names escape me do very well with him.

There's still time to edit your vote. While doing so, you might want to reconsider your Zelda up-vote as well, since she's currently low-mid.

 

[Deleted member]

She's falling down to low-mid tier. She's currently mid tier.

There's still time to edit your vote. While doing so, you might want to reconsider your Zelda up-vote as well, since she's currently low-mid.

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

Kinda wish the list was more in shape, but that will take time.

 

[Bigbomb2]

+ Hate him but he's so good. He might even out when people figure out ways to fight his speed or camping game
+ Mewtwo is an awesome character. Great definition of glass cannon
+ Simply amazing character as well. But Larry really
+ Has great theory AND results. He might iron out a bit since his skill ceiling is probably a bit lower but what do I know
- As ehhh as he generally is, some of his best mains are still pretty dangerous. But for the most part, he's booty

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

hey feel I helped with that results doc as well

Also I agree with Bigbomb2 votes, Mario and sonic are very centralizing characters in the metagame as of late.

 

[TDK]

+1
+1
-1
-1
+1 She's a stable mid tier. How she's going to low tier when trash characters like Charizard and Bowser Jr. aren't astounds me.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I don't think we should we should be trashing winter melon like some of us are. I know the topic has passed but I think the behavior of some people is uncalled for. I don't agree with Winters opinions either, and while I'm not a Marth main I do plan on posting something about him, but that does not make all his opinions invalidated and shouldn't be able to vote. He was up voting puff from bottom tier in like the 2nd tier list and no one called him out for that!(I'm joking btw). One the subject of Marth, Mr.E has beat some of Marths worst matchups in tournament(6WX, Seagull, ZeRo, etc.) To add on to the matchup point thing, if that was the main thing involved then ness would probably be middle of mid, but that's not the case because of theory! I'll write more later, but I only just wrote this to call out some bad behavior.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't think we should we should be trashing winter melon like some of us are. I know the topic has passed but I think the behavior of some people is uncalled for. I don't agree with Winters opinions either, and while I'm not a Marth main I do plan on posting something about him, but that does not make all his opinions invalidated and shouldn't be able to vote. He was up voting puff from bottom tier in like the 2nd tier list and no one called him out for that!(I'm joking btw). One the subject of Marth, Mr.E has beat some of Marths worst matchups in tournament(6WX, Seagull, ZeRo, etc.) To add on to the matchup point thing, if that was the main thing involved then ness would probably be middle of mid, but that's not the case because of theory! I'll write more later, but I only just wrote this to call out some bad behavior.

Winter has been doing this for over a year now. There's only an amount of time before your patience is completely worn. I fully support Winter not being able to vote until he shapes up.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Just before moving on: People mentioned to be a bad matchup for Marcina, but, well... I talked to the Marcina mains I know, looked at a bunch of MU charts of other players and it seemed to be a mix of 45:55 to Even. Then sadly it had to boil down to my own experience, which ended up being that as long as you don't let him get that close to you and avoid getting grabbed, it seemed pretty doable, so in my opinion it was an Even-ish matchup.
Also: No, don't ban Winter. That's uncalled for. We weren't saying that he couldn't opinate about Marcina, the problem is the way he speaks about them implies that he is putting himself in a position where he understands the character more than us, which is not true, and in the past he has ignored things we more experienced players of the character have pointed out about his arguments.
In the end, Winter is just stating his beliefs, and if we don't agree, we simply point out what we think instead. His point of view may or may not be incorrect, but to me, he did nothing wrong.