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Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

Frihetsanka

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-:4diddy:
-:4marth:
-:4duckhunt:
+:4ryu:
-:4megaman:
Care to explain your votes? The only one that makes sense to me is the Ryu vote. I suppose I could see why people might think Duck Hunt would be low-mid tier, but I think their Japanese results are good enough to warrant mid tier.
 

Bigbomb2

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I suppose I could see why people might think Duck Hunt would be low-mid tier, but I think their Japanese results are good enough to warrant mid tier.
Them cheeky Japanese make everyone mid tier. Probably actual robots
 

QualityQ

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Thread seems a little quiet so let's start a new discussion. I've been busy but I've found time to post a good discussion.

Why do you think Dark Pit (and Pit as well?) is high tier?
First of all, let's talk about tier lists and potential vs. reliability and actual results. :4mario: is a really good example. Mario's got lots of good options, a solid gameplan, and pretty good tradeoffs in terms of strengths and weaknesses. He also has a lot of good representation because of Ally/Anti/Zenyou. But if you're a player in a tournament, it's obvious not every Mario you're playing against is going to be Ally/Anti/Zenyou levels of performance. The tier list ranking is *made* because of Mario's options and tools, and *agreed upon* based off of results.

An interesting thing happens when you have to rank characters without them having a lot of top-level performance. Again, you consider options and tradeoffs first, but then a weird thing called *potential* comes in. What is potential? Well, it's whatever you want it to be, honestly. You could paint a pretty picture and say, "if you do this-this-this, X character is really good!" Or, you could do the opposite and say, "X character is bad because this-this-this always happens!" Both of this put the game in a fixed box, are very situational, aren't very realistic, usually are very limited and should never be used in a tier list. *Potential* is not very useful, and I definitely think there are characters that get more from "potential" then they deserve.

Now Pit specifically. VoiD mentioned the gist on stream today: punishes are good, trapping is good, options are good, Up-B is really bad. Now with my experience I'm probably biased, but I think the recovery is much better simply because three jumps and side-B means you probably shouldn't need to go that low frequently. Also I think there is alot to be discovered in fair footstools for multihits; Fox has a famous one but Pikachu and Pit(s) have that option as well. I really think in a game like Smash 4 options that kill quickly will become higher-ranked over time, particularly off the side that very few players currently take full advantage of. Again, these are options, tradeoffs, and things you can do; there is risk to going offstage for a kill, and it can go badly, but the tradeoff is an instant stock and that's pretty good. (Notice I'm using options with tradeoffs and not "potential" here).

In short, I put the pits around 10-15; around Villager-Pikachu-Corrin level. I suppose that's high tier, but for this format tiers aren't individually-rated anyway. And, if no one agrees, it's only one vote.
 
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Frihetsanka

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Bowserboy3 Bowserboy3 : Update soon?

In my opinion, the thread should be updated a bit more often. Most people seem to vote during the first 2-3 days, so maybe update every 4 days for now?
 

Bowserboy3

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Bowserboy3 Bowserboy3 : Update soon?

In my opinion, the thread should be updated a bit more often. Most people seem to vote during the first 2-3 days, so maybe update every 4 days for now?
It's not a case of updating after every few days, but more a case of updating after enough votes have been cast.

Remember I am running this for Browny, and I was taught that it's often best to get around 30 different votes before updating. If that's not reached by around 6-7 days, then we update.

Essentially, if we got say, around 35-40 votes in 2 days, I might theoretically update then and there.

We'll give it another day or so first. The next update is imminent.
 
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D

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I'm bored, so I decided to post about how I feel about some characters and how they may progress in the future.

Has probability to rise into top tier (top 5 or 3):

:4mewtwo::4bayonetta::4fox:

Could rise even further:

:4marth::4megaman::4samus::4robinf::4tlink:

Metagame forces that will drop slightly once people figure out to work around their tools:

:4mario::4cloud::4diddy::4sonic::rosalina::4ryu:

Mid/low tiers that lack metagame longevity to be relevant for long:

:4bowser::4dk::4ness::4wario::4myfriends::4yoshi::4rob::4bowserjr::4pacman::4palutena::4wiifit:

These guys are already decent/good, and peeps will realize it overtime:

:4link::4littlemac::4lucas::4greninja::4duckhunt::4shulk:

Counterpick potential keeps them aloft:

:4drmario::4kirby::4olimar::4luigi::4corrinf:

PLEASE ACTUALLY BE CONSIDERED TO BE NEAR MARTH'S VIABILITY:

:4lucina:

Able to rise a few spots from their poor perception:

:4charizard::4feroy:

Eventual worst character in the game:

:4dedede:

Anyone I didn't list I either feel like will stay around the same spot they are in the meta right now or I don't know much about them.
 
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FamilyTeam

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Mario?... Sonic?...
I thought those two were characters people can only see rising up from here. I know Sonic mains have definitely been putting the work on making him even better.
Also, Ness, Wario, Yoshi, BJr. and Pacman have dropped in positive opinion a long time ago already.
 
D

Deleted member

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Mario?... Sonic?...
I thought those two were characters people can only see rising up from here. I know Sonic mains have definitely been putting the work on making him even better.
Also, Ness, Wario, Yoshi, BJr. and Pacman have dropped in positive opinion a long time ago already.
Once people know how to properly counterplay to Spin Dash and Sonic's options in neutral in general then he'll probably drop from top 5. He's still a very good character though no doubt. Mario is more or less peaking now too.

I put characters like Ness and Bowser Jr because many still rank the former as a high tier character, and Jr. still not being considered gutter trash at this point confuses me.
 
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Frihetsanka

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So far, assuming I've counted correctly, 14 characters are moving up and 4 are moving down.
 

Bowserboy3

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UPDATED :)

Yay, we finally got another tier.

Just as a reminder, more tiers can be created (eg: you don't need to vote Mewtwo down, just vote Diddy, Sheik etc up for example).

The list is starting to see some movement! The same rules as before apply.
  • You have 5 votes to play with. +1 and/or -1 up to 5 different characters.
  • Characters are not ranked within tiers at this point. You are voting to establish their tiering position.
  • Remember, it takes +/-3 to move a character 1 tier, and +/-10 to move them 2 tiers. No character can move more than 2 tiers during each phase.
  • Please vote on the list at the time of voting. While you can vote based on what you like, things such as "X character will probably get votes later so I'm down voting now etc" isn't the best way to do it.
An example vote:

+1:4bayonetta:
+1:4bowser:
-1:4bowserjr:
+1:4falcon:
-1:4charizard:

Version 4.0.4 - Characters not ranked within tiers.

-:4bayonetta::4fox::4mario::4mewtwo::4sonic::4sheik:
-:4diddy::4cloud::rosalina::4zss::4villager::4marth::4pikachu::4ryu::4tlink:
-:4megaman::4corrin::4lucas::4ness::4yoshi::4lucario::4darkpit::4metaknight::4pit::4falcon::4greninja::4lucina::4peach::4robinm::4myfriends::4luigi::4olimar:
- :4bowser::4bowserjr::4charizard::4dk::4drmario::4duckhunt::4kirby::4link::4gaw::4pacman::4palutena::4rob::4feroy::4samus::4shulk::4wario2::4wiifit::4miigun:

-:4falco::4jigglypuff::4ganondorf::4zelda::4dedede::4littlemac::4miibrawl::4miisword:

My votes for now:

+1:rosalina:
+1:4bayonetta:
+1:4zss:
-1:4jigglypuff:
-1:4miibrawl:

My last two votes are to try and get another tier included.
 
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Wintermelon43

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+:4megaman:Definite high tier
+:4diddy:Defitenly top 4
-:4marth:You guys already know what I think about this.
-:4myfriends:Ike isn't upper mid.
-:4ganondorf:Definite bottom tier. IMO he's the worse non-Mii character in the game
 
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Bowserboy3

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-:4marth:You guys already know what I think about this.
I just want to point out that last round, Marth was pretty stagnant until you voted him down, then lots of people voted him up in response.

If anything, you're bringing it on yourself.

Just sayin'.
 

FamilyTeam

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I just want to point out that last round, Marth was pretty stagnant until you voted him down, then lots of people voted him up in response.

If anything, you're bringing it on yourself.

Just sayin'.
That's what we in the trade call reverse psychology. He does that trying to maybe encourage others to take that train of thought and all that happens is that Marth grows because of it...
Anyway:
:4lucina:+
:4megaman:+
:4corrinf:+
:4sheik:+
:4luigi:+
 
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Routa

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-:4olimar:
-:4falco:
-:4palutena:
+:4link:
+:4dk:

I want to remind that the 2nd lowest of thous tier is the mid tier/the tier from which characters started to move around. Also without agreed descriptions of each tier this will be one hell hole due to everyone thinking ther tiers differently. For example my view of Mid tier may be different from that of a Wedl's mid tier.
 

Wintermelon43

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I just want to point out that last round, Marth was pretty stagnant until you voted him down, then lots of people voted him up in response.

If anything, you're bringing it on yourself.

Just sayin'.
I highly doubt that impacted Marth's results in the end
 

Frihetsanka

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Bowserboy3 Bowserboy3 I recounted some votes and I believe you miscounted a few votes.

Sheik and Bayonetta got +3 votes each and should move up. Falco got 3 upvotes but 1 downvote and should thus stay in "low-mid" tier. Little Mac got 3 downvotes and should move down.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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+ :4diddy: At this point, him being in the top 5 should be a no-brainer, with lots of representation, huge results, and a theory that only suffers in gimpable recovery (which goes far if you're clever).
+ :4megaman: If Kamemushi is anything to go by, Mega Man has all the tools needed to do really well and be in high tier, with an insane neutral, good damage racking, and plenty of clever ways to trap and kill.
+ :4dk: At first I thought mid tier was perfect for him, but now that HIKARU did really well at two recent Japanese tournaments in a row, only losing to Shuton (bad matchup, probably) in one and winning the other, he's certainly mid-high right now.
- :4jigglypuff: Come on, people. Why has she only moved down one tier?

EDIT: My final vote:
+1 :4greninja:
Most of you have heard of iStudying and how well he does. He consistently either wins or loses only to Mr. R (which make sense) in regional tournaments, and against all odds he manages to do the same in national tournaments when there are others there, most notably getting 2nd at B.E.A.S.T. 6 over MVD and ESAM with pre-buff Greninja, as well as 3rd at Syndicate 2016 and several other top 32 placements including Pound 2016 and GOML 2016. But what a lot of people seem to forget is that there are tons of other players repping Greninja, most notably aMSa, Eddy, Elexiao, P2P with Gibus, Some, Techei, and Venia, who all place top 8 pretty consistently around the globe and support his rep and results a lot. All of this proves that he has an amazing theory.

Really his only theoretical problem is that he falls fast, making him susceptible to certain combos, but he can always escape combos with Shadow Sneak, so that isn't too bad. His neutral is impressive, with quite high mobility, an amazing projectile in Water Shuriken, a fast walk speed to allow for safer grounded approaches, and a F-air that is very safe on shield. His landing game is pretty good, with a fast fall speed as well as F-air and mixups with D-air, Hydro Pump, and Substitute. His disadvantage state is good, too, with the aforementioned Shadow Sneak to escape combos or multi-hit moves as well as his quick Shuriken and excellent Hydro Pump, which is very fast and can change direction to be unpredictable.

And, of course, his punish game is lethal, with tons of combos that do lots of damage due to him having so many moves that have very little lag, and he can take advantage of footstools to start/extend combos and/or kill. Speaking of killing, he has plenty of ways to do so, including N-air or D-tilt into U-smash, footstool jab lock into forward smash, U-throw 50-50 into U-air (or true combo on platform), U-throw on its own at very high percent, D-throw 50-50 into F-air or a smash, using Shadow Sneak to escape a combo or multi-hit and punish, gimping with Shuriken or Hydro Pump, and occasionally upward Substitute on its own or into U-air.

Is he any higher than the lower part of high tier? Probably not, because it takes an immense grasp of the character and your opponent to take full advantage of all of this. But lower high tier is where he should reside at the moment especially after buffs, and right now I feel like he should be above most of the characters in his tier and alongside some of the ones in the tier above him.
 
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Zerp

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-1 :4zelda: Should go downwards alongside Puff.
-1 :4ganondorf: Should also go downwards.
-1 :4dedede:The Great King ain't so great, unfortunately.
+ 1:4cloud2: Kind of surprised nobody's up-voted him yet. I don't think he's as good as Diddy but I do think he should be up at the top tier along with Diddy and a few others.
+ 1 :pichumelee: He's literally so good that nobody has beat the level 3 AI to unlock him yet, even with mods, so while he has no tourney results, it's probably safe to say he's no.1. Only character that might be better is :popo:, but even that's a long shot.

(I'm saving my actual final vote)
 
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Frihetsanka

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As I mentioned earlier, Bayonetta and Sheik should have moved up (and Falco shouldn't have and Little Mac should have moved down last round. Since a lot of people have voted for Bayonetta and Sheik, I decided to go back and recount those votes.

People who voted for Bayonetta: Bowserboy3, Frihetsanka, and wedl.
People who voted for Sheik: Munomario777, Djmarcus44, and wedl.

Thus, Bayonetta and Sheik should've moved up last round (to top tier). Unless wedl's vote got disqualified, I suppose. That would also explain why Falco moved up, but it doesn't explain why Little Mac didn't move down.
 

Bowserboy3

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Wintermelon43

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+:4megaman:Definite high tier
+:4diddy:Defitenly top 4
-:4marth:You guys already know what I think about this.
-:4myfriends:Ike isn't upper mid.
-:4littlemac:His great ground game doesn't make up for his destructive flaws.
I'm gonna replace my Little Mac down vote with a Ganondorf down vote, since apprantatly Little Mac did go down last round.
 
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