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Smashacre - Gluttony - 64/Melee/Brawl! - August 10th, 2013

Shears

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
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disproving indeterminism
I dont think the problem lies within M2K or hyrule. I think its peoples misinterpretation of patience as stalling. Stalling is actively wasting time in a match with suggestions of cowardice and avoiding the inherit conflict in smash. M2K did none of that, his patience was perceived as stalling because he wasnt aggressive, but he wasnt a coward either. M2K would pursue his opponent off stage, if he was stalling he would just run to the other side of the map and let them waste time recovering and chasing. He played safe combos (utilt to nair/bair/fair which is really all kirby has) not because he was stalling but because he doesnt have the knowledge of the game that most 64 players have, so in order to not jeopardize his chance to win he did what he knew he wouldnt mess up. His move selection and method of approach were what he determined to be the highest reward with the lowest risk. None of this is stalling. His matches took long because he took his time to execute and exploit mistakes in his opponents game not because he hoped the clock would run out and he would be determined the winner based off remaining stock and damage percent, he didnt know the game very well so he didnt want to give into someone elses bait and get pummeled. If there was any stalling in a M2K match that i watched, it wouldve been Stranded in his 2nd game against M2K on hyrule, where in the beginning he dealt damage to M2K and ran away hoping the timer would run out, in which M2K chased him. I played M2K (or at least tried too, he kept rage quitting) in friendlies before the tournament started and later in doubles. He never once appeared to be stalling. He admitted before the tournament that he wasnt familiar with the game and thats what his strategy was, him not attempting something he didnt know to do and making a fool of himself, which was misinterpreted as stalling.

In regards to him pausing matches, he paused in the beginning of a match against me and my teammate during doubles, i believe he was about to die and paused because his hand slipped and hit the start button, we didnt complain because we didnt know the rules and frankly it probably wouldnt have changed the outcome too much (id have to watch the match again to confirm). But on to his match with han solo, i didnt watch the match so i didnt see what happened, i know solo was recording so maybe it can be reviewed later, however; if the rule states a stock should be taken for pausing a match and two stocks taken if the opponent dies from an event that occurs around the moment of the pause, then M2K should have lost two stocks. Whether or not han solo wouldve died with or without the pause, a pause happened and han solo died. Its like defensive holding in football, whether or not the player held would have been involved in the play, or the outcome could have been different, if a defensive player holds an offensive player, its defensive holding and the penalty is served. If a tight end is held at the line of scrimmage on a hail mary pass to the end zone its defensive holding even if the tight ends assignment was to stand at the line of scrimmage. Even if the pass sails way out of bounds and is uncatchable, its defensive holding and the penalty is served. When it comes to rules there cant be a gray area, if it happens its enforced whether or not the infraction was intentional or not, or a difference maker or not. The point of rules is to enforce them, and so M2K shouldve lost two stocks.
 

bloodpeach

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 30, 2012
Messages
346
Location
Philadelphia PA
M2K sets on stream were good solid smash. I think most people had an issue with his play earlier in the tournament when playing on hyrule. From what I watched, his strategy seemed to be to rack up a quick percent lead and then retreat to the corners and then spam utilts and none of his opponents could effectively challenge this strategy. I remember seeing play completely stop a couple of times; m2k would retreat or get hit to the bottom left of hyrule and would throw out an utilt every couple of seconds or so while his opponent (I think it was stranded's fox) was spamming SHDL that forced m2k to stay there. Eventually fox would approach and then die.

I don't think any of these matches were recorded (unfortunately) but it boils down to what sensei said: extremely campy play from both sides and bias against m2k and kirby. I don't think that this necessarily exposes a flaw in the ruleset; I personally think our community has a serious lack of experience against high level kirby because we brand everyone who uses kirby as 'cheap'. You can see this inexperience in action when anyone plays killer; otherewise great players get wrecked by (what seem to me at least) relatively simple strategies.

EDIT: When m2k was playing shears at the start of the tourney he mentioned to me that he had absolutely no tech skill at 64 (he couldn't even consistenly z cancel at that point) but that he thought he would have an advtange over 64 players in terms of decision making. He didn't even know about utilt's broken hitbox until halfway through the tourney, but still pretty well due to solid spacing and EXCELLENT stage control. His unwillingness to leave a stage position where he had an advantage for one where his opponent did should be commended as smart play, not shamed.

P.S. I'm not a huge fan of m2k due to his conduct towards me, shears and others during the tourney. But his play, while campy and patient, was legit.
 

Shears

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
3,146
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disproving indeterminism
I remember seeing play completely stop a couple of times; m2k would retreat or get hit to the bottom left of hyrule and would throw out an utilt every couple of seconds or so while his opponent (I think it was stranded's fox) was spamming SHDL that didn't seem to serve any purpose but to force m2k to stay there. Eventually fox would approach and then die.
Im glad you pointed this out. If we flipped this around would there still be an argument of stalling? Nobody is saying a fox spamming SHDL until the opponent approaches is stalling, but a kirby spamming utilt is. How can this be? Oh i know, its campy when we do it but its stalling when someone we dont like does it to us. bullseye.
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
4,086
woah woah killer is a beast dude. I wouldn't call his strategies simple at all.

But yea people definitely need to learn how to fight kirby more. I dunno how I would've done vs m2k but based on teams against him (hard to tell in teams I know) and watching his friendlies with shears I left thinking he would get dispatched from the tourney pretty early. Guess he went super serious mode and he's a lot harder that way, idk, but overall a camping kirby shouldn't be something that automatically gets you a top placing. It happened here and it happened at impulse with revan. People need more kirby experience, and if you don't have friends who play kirby get online and play anybody because they all play kirby.
 

bloodpeach

Smash Journeyman
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Dec 30, 2012
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346
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Philadelphia PA
Watching Killers SSBL sets it seemed to me that his opponents were making really bizarre decisions. Battecow would edgegaurd nairs and eat fairs as a result, when he could have done a uair with no consequences and Star King's link would cede advantageous stage position on hyrule (plats, top of tent) to miss with a bomb and then get hit. I don't mean to downplay Killer's skill here; his punishes were on point. But i think the fact that he had so many opportunities is a result of matchup inexperience.

Then again, these players are all way better than me, so there could be ADVANCED MINDGAMES that I can't see yet, but thats what it looks like from down here.
 

Mew2King

King of the Mews
Joined
Jul 18, 2002
Messages
11,263
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Cinnaminson (southwest NJ 5 min drive from Philly)
you'll all haters lol. I don't practice 64 and i will not deny that i play super super lame/gay. I openly admit this and I only do it to win and because I'm not good enough to win while aggro with kirby. My tech skill is too terrible and I lack much knowledge of this game that many others have. If you want to ban me for playing like hbox, then just ban me from tourenys. It's fine, idc that much. I do like to enter all smash events. Also I only borrow controllers because I have none of my own, but I wanted to try to enter anyways.
 

Sedda

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
Messages
2,393
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Luigi sucks
I don't think anyone's going to ban you. People just get a bit 'rowdy' when the rules are being questioned. You should enter more tourneys
 

meowmeowrainbowkitty

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 23, 2011
Messages
147
Location
Naperville, Illinois
The robot speaks!

But yeah, like sedda said...I don't think it's anything against you--it just happened to be you and solo that the pausing situation happened to. Could've happened with anyone. And honestly, I think it's a good thing that this happened; just demonstrates that the rules need to be tested/strengthened.

As for the campy/stalling debate.. yeah, we'll probably need to get a good discussion going. my vote is for a timer for all matches.
meow.
 

Mew2King

King of the Mews
Joined
Jul 18, 2002
Messages
11,263
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Cinnaminson (southwest NJ 5 min drive from Philly)
i was at 2 stock 40% and already buffered an f smash while he was buffering a jump (i think?) so it wouldn't have made a difference, and he was at 1 stock 100%. Being an actual reasonable person I should have just won because I probably would have. I certainly should not have auto-lost. Even if I was fighting some random guy that I didn't like I would have just been like "you know what, I clearly lost that match anyway, I won't make you restart". We ended up agreeing to a redo, but realistically the match was over and it's extremely obvious too.

"rules should be enforced" - well automatically losing a stock or even worse, two stocks, is a dumb rule, especially with that exact situation. The way I hold the controller that always happens (like every hour it happens to me) when I'm mashing to smash DI (what is the best way to smash DI??? I actually don't know). I guess that's my fault obviously but honestly it's really stupid. But I guess there's no possible better rule. I'd rather just not have a start button as an option but I don't even have my own controller so nothing I can do there. The thing is that every situation is very different and the outcome of that situation was pretty obvious.

btw other people paused it against me and vex in teams and we didn't care and let them go. Unless I truely felt cheated out of a win, I won't say anything about it.
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
4,086
Yea nothing against you m2k at all, we just having a rules discussion now lol. Definitely enter in the future.

And yea that was me who paused vs you in teams. I kinda stopped play for a second because I wasn't sure if you guys wanted me to die or not. Thanks for letting it go, felt almost like a hypocrite making sensei/ceaser take a stock later.
 

Shears

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
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disproving indeterminism
its slightly an exaggeration. i believe the specific event was we were playing on peachs castle (you as kirby, me as pikachu), you paused after we were both at 2 or 3 stocks and ended the match because you said the game was too campy (this suggests frustration with the campyness and frustration was exaggerated to rage), then selected dreamland and after we were at 3 or 4 stocks someone asked you something in which you paused and quit to handle their request. the abruptness you displayed in ending the matches, walking away to handle the requests of others, and borrowing a controller were the things that irked people.
some advice:
-before ending a match for a certain (valid) reason, discuss with the person youre playing with the reason you would like to end the match. nobody will have a problem with it and will encourage you to then end the match and resolve whatever problem existed before (in this case the stage). it only takes a few seconds to ask someone a question and for them to answer, these few seconds make a impact on your reputation much larger than you know. its like if someone is in your way, moving them out of your way is the faster way to do it and you moving them would not harm them or interfere with what theyre doing, but the courtesy of saying excuse me and letting them move themselves is the socially favorable decision (at the cost of the seconds to say excuse me).
-when someone needs you for something and youre in the middle of the match. pause, say "hey sorry, im needed for X. please, excuse me." the extra seconds to excuse yourself shows the person that they are worth of your apology. whether you think they deserve your courtesy or not, you have already shown that peoples disinterest in you is something you dont agree with and are aware of, so presenting yourself as welcoming and appreciative would quell those opinions.
-how nice you are (or think you are) is overshadowed by the quickness in which you do things. youre behavior is great for work, smash, getting things done, but socially it is defensive and abrasive. you may not think youre being rude but people think your rude. if thats because youre misunderstood, its not a persons job to understand you correctly. you may think your behavior, lets call it A, yields understanding, lets call it B, but in reality your behavior A (you may not be aware of this and thats why you dont understand why people have problems with you), yields understanding C whether you like it or not, and in reality behavior D yields understanding B. so you have to make a decision; do you want to behave as A (the way you want) and be understood as C (the way you dont want) or do you want to behave as D (a different way then you do now) and be understood as B (they way you want)?

with all this aside. objectively watching M2K play and progress was truly remarkable. he started as a player that was basically clueless at the game and evolved so quickly into becoming the second best player at the tournament. his ability to read, interpret, and execute is unparalleled.
 

Han Solo

Banned via Warnings
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Midwest Corellia
i was at 2 stock 40% and already buffered an f smash while he was buffering a jump (i think?) so it wouldn't have made a difference, and he was at 1 stock 100%. Being an actual reasonable person I should have just won because I probably would have. I certainly should not have auto-lost. Even if I was fighting some random guy that I didn't like I would have just been like "you know what, I clearly lost that match anyway, I won't make you restart". We ended up agreeing to a redo, but realistically the match was over and it's extremely obvious too.

"rules should be enforced" - well automatically losing a stock or even worse, two stocks, is a dumb rule, especially with that exact situation. The way I hold the controller that always happens (like every hour it happens to me) when I'm mashing to smash DI (what is the best way to smash DI??? I actually don't know). I guess that's my fault obviously but honestly it's really stupid. But I guess there's no possible better rule. I'd rather just not have a start button as an option but I don't even have my own controller so nothing I can do there. The thing is that every situation is very different and the outcome of that situation was pretty obvious.

btw other people paused it against me and vex in teams and we didn't care and let them go. Unless I truely felt cheated out of a win, I won't say anything about it.
M2K, you deserved the set win obviously (and most likely the first game 2 as well), but this situation has never happened before. Usually when someone pauses, it's because of DI like you said. This means that the person pausing is the person getting hit. It's never happened before that the person pausing is the one that's doing the hitting. On top of that, you paused in the middle of an attack animation. And on top of all that, it happened on my last stock and your last two. That's what makes this a gray area. When a person pauses, is that stock done immediately at the pause? Do we take into account what happens afterwards like your already buffered fsmash?

Like I said, you got the win, and you deserved it. It's just that we also found a minor bug in our program.

Also, I firmly believe that if you can't adapt to a person's playstyle (M2K's in this instance), then it's your fault. I got outplayed. Stranded got outplayed. Everyone else got outplayed except Sensei.
 

The Star King

Smash Hero
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Nov 6, 2007
Messages
9,681
On a lighter note, people might want to know that late Friday night/early Saturday morning Stranded tried to claim to me and Fireblaster that he was Smasherx74x. When we told him he was too young, he said "Smasher has only been around since 2012." We laughed so hard at his youthful ignorance.
lol

I don't think he's too young though. Isn't he like 17? I think Smasher has been around since at least 2009, and I have been too, so if he's only one or two years younger than me, eh. Or has Smasher been around longer than that?

Maybe Stranded said the 2012 thing because he regretted telling you guys and decided to mindgame you with that quote ;O

Watching Killers SSBL sets it seemed to me that his opponents were making really bizarre decisions. Battecow would edgegaurd nairs and eat fairs as a result, when he could have done a uair with no consequences and Star King's link would cede advantageous stage position on hyrule (plats, top of tent) to miss with a bomb and then get hit. I don't mean to downplay Killer's skill here; his punishes were on point. But i think the fact that he had so many opportunities is a result of matchup inexperience.

Then again, these players are all way better than me, so there could be ADVANCED MINDGAMES that I can't see yet, but thats what it looks like from down here.
there was ultra lag (not seen in video cuz Killer used the krec system to record)

so I messed up a lot of things I wouldn't have

JUST SAYING

And yeah I think you're not giving Killer enough credit. He makes a lot of good reads that people might not notice. I actually have some trouble with his Fox (though not as much), and I'm definitely not inexperienced against THAT character. Fox is easily my best MU out of the top 4.
 

Florence

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
61
Location
Ottawa, Ontario
woah woah killer is a beast dude. I wouldn't call his strategies simple at all.

But yea people definitely need to learn how to fight kirby more. I dunno how I would've done vs m2k but based on teams against him (hard to tell in teams I know) and watching his friendlies with shears I left thinking he would get dispatched from the tourney pretty early. Guess he went super serious mode and he's a lot harder that way, idk, but overall a camping kirby shouldn't be something that automatically gets you a top placing. It happened here and it happened at impulse with revan. People need more kirby experience, and if you don't have friends who play kirby get online and play anybody because they all play kirby.

Kirby doesn't really have good aggressive spacing options without dash-pivot uptilt. Alternatively he has amazing defensive options even without it. If you play kirby and don't know about his tech you can still play an amazing defensive game, but an aggressive one would require insane reads.
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
4,086
o damn that is really tight han lol. At first I I would've thought your bair was gonna come out, but playing it frame by frame it looks like there was no way the bair was gonna come out only because you got hit so far from where kirby initially was. I think best case scenario for you the hits would've traded
 

bloodpeach

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 30, 2012
Messages
346
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Philadelphia PA
BTw I never rage quit in ANY friendlies UNLESS I was called for a TOURNEY MATCH in melee/brawl

so idk why you guys are saying that


You walked up to me and shears as we were playing friendlies at the very start of the tourney (before 64 doubles had started) and said "I'm playing". You grabbed my controller and asked if you could use. You played Shears' Pika on Peach's and when it you lost your second or third stock you quit abrubpt, said "This map is too campy" and started a new game on DL all without giving Shears a chance to speak. You quit that game abruptly as well when TO said you still needed to register. Like that coudn't have waited until the endof the match.

I don't care how antisocial you are, there is no way you can look at these events where you are not being incredibly rude and disrespectful. I knew a lot of melee/brawl people said you were disrespectful but I thought I'd give you the benefit of the doubt. I have never seen someone make so bad of a first impression so fast.
 

Karajan

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
519
I don't care how antisocial you are, there is no way you can look at these events where you are not being incredibly rude and disrespectful. I knew a lot of melee/brawl people said you were disrespectful but I thought I'd give you the benefit of the doubt. I have never seen someone make so bad of a first impression so fast.
Yeah I love how people defend his actions by saying he has assbergers.

"Oh don't worry about that guy getting wasted over there; he is an alcoholic so he cant help it."
 

mixa

Banned via Warnings
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Jun 6, 2012
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Isle of ゆぅ
Mew2King is such a rockstar





And let's get some wise words up in this thread:
Sangoku said:
If a Kirby player who spam rolls and utilts beats my Fox on Dreamland more often than not in sets, then he's better than me. By definition. He might have no techskill, I might have sick techskill (which I don't, but that's an example), it doesn't matter. He wins, he's better. Of course, you can say he only wins because he uses Kirby and spams utilts or because he uses Pika and grabs&gimps on dreamland, etc. But these are all reasons as to why he's better. Instead of using a superiority in techskill and/or spacing, he's using a superiority in matchup, character and stage (both of which could be counterbalanced by your superiority in techskill/spacing by the way). Thing is it doesn't matter what strategy he uses (as long as it's legit, ie not unplugging your controller or other things) as long as he can beat you eventually, he is the better player. Then you could say "If I dedicated myself to Kirby/Pika as much as I did to Fox, I'd be better". Maybe it's true, but since you haven't done it, you're currently worse. I talked about this long time ago with someone else and we liked to talk about "experience" as opposed to "good". Someone might be more experienced (more knowledge, more techskill, etc.), but less good than a spamming Kirby/Pikachu.

I do understand your feeling as a spectator and it makes myself sad watching a Fox/Falcon get gimp ***** on Dreamland by a Pikachu, but that's how the game, at its competitive level is.
clapclapclap
 

Karajan

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
519
The brackets are up. Who came up with the team names?

2: I Love You Megavolt's GF (Clubbadubba, Han Solo)

RESULTS!

64 Doubles:



1: Sensei64 (Sensei :pikachu64:, Ceaser :luigi64:)
2: I Love You Megavolt's GF (Clubbadubba :pikachu64:, Han Solo :fox64:)
3: M2K64 (M2K :kirby64:, Vex :falcon64:)
4: Juggernauts of Destiny (John B :ness64:, Shears :pikachu64:)
5: Team Adventure of the Illicit Betas (gutxi :luigi64:, bukkha :kirby64:)
5: All Hail JOUSUKE (Isai Is Dead :luigi64:, Yunque :jigglypuff64:)
7: Fireblaster64 (Fireblaster, ILUWRMM)
7: Killer Has KB DI (Koro :yoshi64:, TBA)
9: Puff Shizzle (BleachMan!, Eliot)
9: Team Workers of Northern Destruction (bloodpeach, breakthrough)
9: HoodLawn (BigBabyBrent, Alex Mytelka)
13: The Raft of Prof. Oak (Maliki, Stranded)

64 Singles:



1: Sensei :kirby64: :dk64:
2: CT/EMP Mew2King :kirby64:
3: Fireblaster :yoshi64: :mario64:
4: Han Solo :fox64: :pikachu64: :samus64:
5: Maliki :pikachu64: :falcon64:
5: Stranded :falcon64: :fox64:
7: Shears :pikachu64:
7: Weedwack :ness64: :falcon64:
9: Ceasar :mario64:
9: Jimmy Joe :pikachu64:
9: KoRo :yoshi64: :falcon64:
9: Eliot :kirby64:
13: Breakthrough :kirby64:
13: Cobrevolution :samus64: :falcon64:
13: bloodpeach :yoshi64: :kirby64:
13: John B.
17: Gutxi
17: Isai Is Dead :link64:
17: Rapture :samus64:
17: BigBabyBrent
17: Yunque :jigglypuff64:
17: BleachMan!
17: DrinkWildTurkey :samus64:
25: CT Vex :kirby64: :fox64:
25: Brendan Stepladder
25: Erdos :fox64:
Edit: Added the characters myself correct me if im wrong

Dafuq sensei? stranded vs ceaser first round?

No love for luigi in singles?
 

Cobrevolution

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 8, 2012
Messages
3,178
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nj
i think chris went falcon/ness and i went samus/falcon. peach went yoshi. breakthrough i think went kirby/falcon. rapture is a samus player. vex i think is kirby/fox?
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
4,086
i went pika virtually all of teams, with 1 game of luigi/puff each vs those lil punk kids. Did not play falcon once in tourney
 

bloodpeach

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 30, 2012
Messages
346
Location
Philadelphia PA
Who came up with team names? Me and breakthrough held up doubles for a bit because neither of us knew we were named 'Team Workers'...
 
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