Smash4 has not done anything to deserve EVO

[TunaAndBacon]

Best thing you and other Melee fans can do is make arguments for why Melee AND Smash4 be in Evo.
That way even Smash4 fans will then not be against you, but they will be with you on that.
Then we can take it forward to the Evo TOs. Make a statement that Melee AND Smash4 in EVO2015 makes a lot of sense.

No really I want both at Evo, really and for truly. I feel both communities can gain from something like that, and cutting out one over the other is going to leave a large fan base of either upset, with Nintendo taking part in Evo now and Sm4sh being where all the money is gonna be at, it would make sense that Sm4sh is gonna be in and thats fine.

But Melee still had 1000 entrants in 2014 and what I believe to be around 100k streamers watching, those people aren't going anywhere. However its impossible to say that they were all "Melee" fans, they were more likely then not all just Smash fans, and a lot of them probably didn't understand right off the bat why it was Melee being played instead of Brawl, but hopefully after Grand finals and all those amazing sets, they got a better respect for Melee and maybe even got more interested into it.

The same could go for Melee fans towards Smash4, I didn't honestly think this game would have much room for any tech,combos,or rushing people down. Then I got styled all over by this Greninja, so this one guy I met on For Glory changed my entire perspective of Smash4, who's to say it can't happen for other Melee fans too.

I still believe that Melee is the most technical and most competitively viable, and I believe its community is very strong willed and passionate about the game that they play. But if its not at Evo because Smash4 has that new game hype, and was put in by Nintendo, I'll be pretty salty at first, but there is still tons of other very big tournaments for Melee I could watch instead. And hopefully Sm4sh at Evo would change my ideals of it even more then that one Greninja did, but again Melee could do the same for all the new blood and veterans playing Sm4sh.

So why not both?

 

[JohnnyDelMidwest]

No really I want both at Evo, really and for truly. I feel both communities can gain from something like that, and cutting out one over the other is going to leave a large fan base of either upset, with Nintendo taking part in Evo now and Sm4sh being where all the money is gonna be at, it would make sense that Sm4sh is gonna be in and thats fine.

But Melee still had 1000 entrants in 2014 and what I believe to be around 100k streamers watching, those people aren't going anywhere. However its impossible to say that they were all "Melee" fans, they were more likely then not all just Smash fans, and a lot of them probably didn't understand right off the bat why it was Melee being played instead of Brawl, but hopefully after Grand finals and all those amazing sets, they got a better respect for Melee and maybe even got more interested into it.

The same could go for Melee fans towards Smash4, I didn't honestly think this game would have much room for any tech,combos,or rushing people down. Then I got styled all over by this Greninja, so this one guy I met on For Glory changed my entire perspective of Smash4, who's to say it can't happen for other Melee fans too.

I still believe that Melee is the most technical and most competitively viable, and I believe its community is very strong willed and passionate about the game that they play. But if its not at Evo because Smash4 has that new game hype, and was put in by Nintendo, I'll be pretty salty at first, but there is still tons of other very big tournaments for Melee I could watch instead. And hopefully Sm4sh at Evo would change my ideals of it even more then that one Greninja did, but again Melee could do the same for all the new blood and veterans playing Sm4sh.

So why not both?

I agree. I do believe that Smash 4 should be the main event because it's new but Melee should be there as well.

 

[JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines)]

pls elaborate for me buddy

I was excited because you think this is all silly and that is my stance on this. People are just using this thread to mostly bash Smash 4.

 

[TheGoldMan]

Smash 4 has MK extremely nerfed and random tripping gone. Might as well give it a chance.

 

[SmashBro99]

So why not both?

/thread

While I don't play melee anymore (I play the newest game over the others) and I don't find it fun to watch at all, I can appreciate that people love the game and want to keep it going.

And I along with many others want Smash 4 to be played to see what players will bring so early in the game's life.

 

[Warhawk]

I'm going to preface my comment with saying that I play melee far more than any other smash game. I enjoy both smash 64 and Project M, but do not play them near as much as melee. I do not play Brawl at all. I love melee and think it is the best smash game. I've watched smash 4 gameplay and from what I've seen I don't think I'll like it. I know what I like about the smash games I play and smash 4 appears as though it lacks the various elements I like from the 3 games I play or that they are not as defined as I'd like them to be. I'll probably play it at some point if given the opportunity but I don't know that I want to spend my money on it. I think that its really annoying that in threads about smash4 or smash4 videos this viewpoint can get I or others who have a similar view labeled as a meleelitist without us even tearing them or their game down. Like heaven forbid I support and play the game I like and am indifferent to the ones I don't like. I'm ok with you liking a game I don't, I don't understand why I'm the destroying the smash community because I don't enjoy it as well.

That being said the maker of this thread has deserves every bit of what has happened in this thread. A thread labeled "Smash4 has done nothing to deserve evo" is absolutely ridiculous and makes people that play melee like me look bad. If the game is featured and melee is still there with its massive attendance as usual who the hell cares. This energy would be better spent getting melee more recognition to try and get it into evo regardless of the other game. Obviously I want melee to get into evo, but at this point I don't think smash4's position has an effect on whether its in or not. if melee can still get 700 entrants or whatever again I think it will still get some kind of spot. This thread does nothing but divides the community, and smash4 will likely be at evo so long as Nintendo wishes it to be and no matter what anyone does.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

some people are saying smash 4 has little to no meta, while others are saying its just like brawl like its meta is already developed.
confusing the crap out of me. How old is this game? 3ds is days old, week's top. and the other version isnt even out yet.
i'm pretty sure melee played super boring when it first released, but it took time before its incredible gameplay kicked in.
brawl has the most dynamic tier list history of all smash games, and its still changing (even though its almost dead ).

 

[TurnUp]

Why does a game have to do something? Injustice came out literally a few months before Evo and it got in because it's a new fighting game to play. Maybe if you give it a chance maybe it CAN do something, but if you guys keep shutting it down because it's not Melee, no game will ever get the chance.

I'm willing to bet Nintendo's going to sponsor again to get it into EVO anyway, maybe even add prize money.
the Wii U version alone has 8 months to develop for EVO, I think we'll be good.

Also reminder that Mario Kart DS got into Evo 2006... MARIO KART. WITH ITEMS AND ALL, EVEN ON A HANDHELD.

 

[Macdaddy53156a]

How about this? Whichever game gets more entrants to actually go to EVO gets the spot? The lower one gets to be a side tournament. That seems completely fair.

 

[josh bones]

To the people saying smash for will have more entrants then melee, think about it. Smash is a primarily kids game, so flying to Vegas is out of the picture. Why do you think street fighter gets half the sales of smash, but twice the entrants? Melee doesn't have the kids game connotation, so it would get more. The people watching evo won't be the people playing smash four, they'll be the people waiting for marvel.
Just some food for thought

 

[Narpas_sword]

lol wut.

People who dont play melee think it's a kids game.

 

[BlackSmoke]

To the people saying smash for will have more entrants then melee, think about it. Smash is a primarily v kids game, so flying to Vegas is out of the picture. Why do v you think street fighter gets half v the sales of smash, but twice the v entrants? Melee doesn't have the kids game connotation, so it would get more. The people watching evo won't be the people playing smash four, they'll be the people waiting for marvel.
Just some food for thought

What is with the random v?

... Ugh.

 

[ToadsterOven]

To the people saying smash for will have more entrants then melee, think about it. Smash is a primarily kids game, so flying to Vegas is out of the picture. Why do you think street fighter gets half the sales of smash, but twice the entrants? Melee doesn't have the kids game connotation, so it would get more. The people watching evo won't be the people playing smash four, they'll be the people waiting for marvel.
Just some food for thought

Ummm dude last I checked, there are people in the under 18 demographic for all smash bros games when it comes to tournaments of all shapes and sizes, not just 4. #themoreyouknow

 

[josh bones]

Ummm dude last I checked, there are people in the under 18 demographic for all smash bros games when it comes to tournaments of all shapes and sizes, not just 4. #themoreyouknow

As the newest game, kids make up most of v the playerbase. Melee is old, so it isn't mostly kids.

 

[King Donkey Kong]

lol wut.

People who dont play melee think it's a kids game.

They all see any Smash Bros as a kids game, ignorance on their part.

 

[BlackSmoke]

They all see any Smash Bros as a kids game, ignorance on their part.

Irony is some people see ALL video games as a recreational activity for kids....lol. That's why, we still have people blaming school shootings on violent videogames. ;/

 

[byebye]

To the people saying smash for will have more entrants then melee, think about it. Smash is a primarily kids game, so flying to Vegas is out of the picture. Why do you think street fighter gets half the sales of smash, but twice the entrants? Melee doesn't have the kids game connotation, so it would get more. The people watching evo won't be the people playing smash four, they'll be the people waiting for marvel.
Just some food for thought

I thought about it.
Smash4 will possibly have more entrants.

Assuming both Melee AND 4 will be on Evo:
- Melee players that are already going to Vegas might as well give their shot in winning 4 since they are already there
- Melee players that knew that they are just going to lose to Mang0 - Fox and any of the other 5 gods might as well enter a tourney that they can win
- 64 / Brawl / PM players that go to Vegas to watch and or have fun playing Melee might as well give 4 a shot
- New players thinks they have a good chance to win since 4 is a new game and most have just started to learn them too, even old timers
- Nintendo will most probably add to the winnings
- Has better media attention and hype
- Possible 4v4 crew battle setup that may interest more people, hence more entrants

 

[Thegopher]

I didn't read any of these comments so I'm throwing my opinion out there. Huge fan of melee. Not gonna say let it die but we gotta give smash 4 a chance. Melee has mostly been played to its full extent and we should give smash 4 a chance to pave the way for new players to a new game. Melee is pretty intimidating to a new player and honestly if smash 4 is at evo then we can have everyone starting smash 4 fresh instead of having new players try to battle with melee players with 10 years of experience under their belt. Lets allow some change and pave the way to a new smash game and not have it fall in the dust before it even takes off the ground.

 

[wmo_]

IMO there's only one thing that does the talking for EVO, and that's entrant numbers. Smash 4 will easily get more entrants, and it's only a matter of time before the gap between Sm4sh entrants and melee entrants becomes too large to justify keeping Melee.

 

[Cactusblah]

I supported Melee for EVO as a Brawl player. Now it's time for Smash 4 to be at EVO.

 

[Code Bread]

But guys, Smash 4 hasn't even done anything to deserve EVO

 

[Morbi]

I do not believe that a game has to earn its way to Evolution. Sure, Melee earned its way to EVO a couple of years ago; however, that is not entirely relevant at the current time either. I would assert that it is immaterial as to whether or not a game is "deserving" or "worthy." I am not even sure if the decision is merit based. Dare I say that I agree with one of the first posts in this thread. New and popular titles are usually featured except for the prominently advocated for main-stay titles. Smash 4 is new and popular; therefore, it is arguable that it has "earned" its way to Evolution.

Melee will probably be featured as well though. If I recall correctly, the stream numbers were favorable and surely there is going to be a demand.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

I didn't realize you had to earn being part of EVO when you're the newest, most robust game in a series that is heralded in the competitive community.

You'd expect Smash 4 to basically get a free ticket in, you know. Especially with a lot of the mechanics that made Brawl... noob-friendly and non-competitive, removed or dwindled in efficiency.

 

[JipC]

i'm pretty sure melee played super boring when it first released, but it took time before its incredible gameplay kicked in.

Thats completely wrong though. Wavedashing took a long time to discover but Melee started out great and only got better.

 

[lordvaati]

I'll just wait until the 21st before being a judge, thank you.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Thats completely wrong though. Wavedashing took a long time to discover but Melee started out great and only got better.

no, melee wasn't super incredible when it just released. Fox wasn't day 1 tyrant of the game, Capt. Falcon wasn't the combo machine day 1, or anything like that. gameplay was super casual (as in, very nooby like).

 

[SSS]

lol @ this thread tho

 

[Chimera]

Is there any solid rationale to include Smash4 in EVO 2015 that can be offered?

It's awesome.

 

[Wiley]

This thread was just made to whine. Pretty much pointless to get involved and yet,

The people with money don't care. You didn't create the series, or the games they came from, pretty selfish to think you have a monopoly on the creative minds that made these games and the ones who worked hours finding the best outlets for both enjoyment and profit. You're just a shmoe with a controller, and because you got a few more shmoes with controllers to play even more you think you have the right to steer the ship?

I hope this is Sakurai's last game of Smash as he has predicted it might be. Many of you don't deserve another. Just sit and play Melee and stop whining about it, if you're so Grassroots this shouldn't matter, go find a friend or make your own venue like you have in the past. Or you could just be happy your series is getting a light shed on it, and stop being so damn selfish and entitled.

 

[Macdaddy53156a]

This thread was just made to whine. Pretty much pointless to get involved and yet,

The people with money don't care. You didn't create the series, or the games they came from, pretty selfish to think you have a monopoly on the creative minds that made these games and the ones who worked hours finding the best outlets for both enjoyment and profit. You're just a shmoe with a controller, and because you got a few more shmoes with controllers to play even more you think you have the right to steer the ship?

I hope this is Sakurai's last game of Smash as he has predicted it might be. Many of you don't deserve another. Just sit and play Melee and stop whining about it, if you're so Grassroots this shouldn't matter, go find a friend or make your own venue like you have in the past. Or you could just be happy your series is getting a light shed on it, and stop being so damn selfish and entitled.

No one should be saying melee should get to steer the ship. Most should be saying that letting the better bet get center stage should be more important than 'trying something new'. I'm pretty sure everyone ideally wants smash 4 to be good enough to trump melee. Or at least add something new to the formula that warrants it's own community like 64 and PM do. And the shmoe tidbit is wrong. People naturally played the game, than sought out more people who also enjoy playing the game. They didn't 'convert' people to play melee. They noticed there were others like them, and decided to play together. Same like anything.
The melee community being selfish? Not particularly. At least a majority of the community. Melee TOs also host brawl, PM, and Smash 4 games even if they may not particularly enjoy that game. They know enough people want it, so they oblige. And thats what the rule should be. If more people want to play a particular game, it should get the spotlight. The other game should not get grandfathered in.

 

[Lukingordex]

I hope this is Sakurai's last game of Smash as he has predicted it might be.

Totally off topic but, Is this really true? I have never heard anything about this before.

 

[John12346]

Sakurai recently stated in an interview that he develops games with the mindset that it will be the last game he ever makes, so he can really jam pack it with as much material as he can manage.

 

[kancon1]

Totally off topic but, Is this really true? I have never heard anything about this before.

This is not true, Sakurai has stated he isn't done with smash yet. I can cite if you need me to.

But honestly, you guys think For Glory and Omega stages are making the game competitve? For Glory is a nice attempt but only having Omega stages makes some characters more/less viable than normal on For Glory (Little Mac is more viable since there are no platforms, Ganondorf is less viable since he can't use platforms to avoid projectiles, etc.), and playing on a single stage with very few variations isn't as fun or exciting as it could have been. Just goes to show Sakurai doesn't know jack about making another competitive game, pretty much lost hope for a truly competitive smash after L-Canceling was removed. I'm not saying L-Canceling alone made smash competitive, but if they really wanted smash to have a chance at being as competitive as most fighting games, they wouldn't take away options like that, especially since landing lag was increased. This game has more punishes and reads than combos and mixups, which isn't really fun to watch. I think a good competitive fighting game would have a balance between the two. The beauty of smash to me is being able to link a move into a variety of other moves. With reduced time in tumble and not as many frames between sidesteps/airdodges, it is very diffucult to get a combo over 2 hits. Why does a fighting game need combos to be good? To promote aggressive play, and be more spectator friendly. Defensive games are not fun to watch unless you know the mechanics well. Do you even need to know what a wavedash is to enjoy watching Melee? With more combos and aggressive play, I think Melee is more spectator friendly than Smash 4. (That was unbiased enough, yes?). If I had a say, I would keep Smash 4 out of Evo simply because it was not made for competitive play. For Glory shows that they attempted it, but they either don't know how or don't really care. No amount of patches can fix this. One could argue that Melee wasn't made to be competitive either, but since then L-canceling was removed, and glitches that made Melee competitive have been removed.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Mad about Project M, Im guessing? it seems eveyone that is mad about project M not being at APEX hates smash 4 for whatever reason.

 

[BananaBolts]

Mad about Project M, Im guessing? it seems eveyone that is mad about project M not being at APEX hates smash 4 for whatever reason.

Not really. The majority of the PM community is highly understanding and most of them are still being respectful. The people you are seeing are either nasty/hateful people or people using this info as a weapon. You see, a lot of people HATE PM because it's not an official release and they feel the need to put an end to it. Some players are making themselves out to be PM players just to make the PM community look bad. (hence the death threats, flaming, trolls etc.) It's all just a way for people to make PM look bad and get it shut down.

Yes, I realize that some PM players are complaining about Smash 4 but the numbers aren't all too significant.

 

[Code Bread]

This is not true, Sakurai has stated he isn't done with smash yet. I can cite if you need me to.

But honestly, you guys think For Glory and Omega stages are making the game competitve? For Glory is a nice attempt but only having Omega stages makes some characters more/less viable than normal on For Glory (Little Mac is more viable since there are no platforms, Ganondorf is less viable since he can't use platforms to avoid projectiles, etc.), and playing on a single stage with very few variations isn't as fun or exciting as it could have been. Just goes to show Sakurai doesn't know jack about making another competitive game, pretty much lost hope for a truly competitive smash after L-Canceling was removed. I'm not saying L-Canceling alone made smash competitive, but if they really wanted smash to have a chance at being as competitive as most fighting games, they wouldn't take away options like that, especially since landing lag was increased. This game has more punishes and reads than combos and mixups, which isn't really fun to watch. I think a good competitive fighting game would have a balance between the two. The beauty of smash to me is being able to link a move into a variety of other moves. With reduced time in tumble and not as many frames between sidesteps/airdodges, it is very diffucult to get a combo over 2 hits. Why does a fighting game need combos to be good? To promote aggressive play, and be more spectator friendly. Defensive games are not fun to watch unless you know the mechanics well. Do you even need to know what a wavedash is to enjoy watching Melee? With more combos and aggressive play, I think Melee is more spectator friendly than Smash 4. (That was unbiased enough, yes?). If I had a say, I would keep Smash 4 out of Evo simply because it was not made for competitive play. For Glory shows that they attempted it, but they either don't know how or don't really care. No amount of patches can fix this. One could argue that Melee wasn't made to be competitive either, but since then L-canceling was removed, and glitches that made Melee competitive have been removed.

I didn't realize that the creation of For Glory meant that For Glory was the competitive mode of Smash 4.
Or that it's impossible to create a combo stringing more than two hits.
Or that it's so hard to punish someone's sidesteps or rolls.
Real talk, you must be terrible at Smash 4.

Melee not having been made for competitive play is an argument?
I'm legitimately confused.

 

[kancon1]

I didn't realize that the creation of For Glory meant that For Glory was the competitive mode of Smash 4.
Or that it's impossible to create a combo stringing more than two hits.
Or that it's so hard to punish someone's sidesteps or rolls.
Real talk, you must be terrible at Smash 4.

Melee not having been made for competitive play is an argument?
I'm legitimately confused.

I meant that after Melee the glitches were destroyed, which were what unintentionally made Melee competitive. And I haven't been able to land any combos... Or should I say strings, without some hard reads and/or fake outs. Its even harder when they air dodge right after tumble, when I go to hit them... And uh, I guess I must be bad at punishing rolls xD. I contantly fight rollers who do nothing but roll, and I can't hit them, and is risky to try when you don't have many lagless moves. High risk low reward for me. I must be doing something wrong. But on the For Glory thing, I was seeing comments that it was making Smash 4 more competitve, its not, but its better than nothing. You're absolutely right.

 

[ghastmine]

Dear God here we go again...First I've played all smash bros games (gonna get smash wii u with the Fox amiibo) but look yes melee is very competitive but sakurai has tryed his ****ing hardest to please the competitive side and what do you guys do "IT ISN'T MELEE!" Or "THERE'S NO WAVE DASHING!" Jesus shut up be happy he included for glory, the GameCube controller adapter, brought back mewto and even brought back dr mario for the melee community.....now on a competitive note I feel like the wii u will be the second best competitive game in the series.....(project m is a mod so can't count it) thank you for reading.

 

[byebye]

^ lots of claps for you.
what we see here is human nature at it's finest. never satisfied. hahahaha.

seriously, if smash 4 has less lag and have more hitstun, battlefield no items in for glory, people will still have something to complain about. I'm sure. as long as it's a different game. there'll be something.

last time it's just get rid of tripping and nerf metaknight.
now we got that and many more, people still complain.

 

[BananaBolts]

last time it's just get rid of tripping and nerf metaknight.
now we got that and many more, people still complain.

Smash 4 has its own set of jank just like Brawl. In fact, every Smash game has a few bad qualities

seriously, if smash 4 has less lag and have more hitstun, battlefield no items in for glory, people will still have something to complain about. I'm sure. as long as it's a different game. there'll be something.

It's not necessarily that it's a different game, it's the fact that it doesn't quite play like a smash game should. I suppose you could say, "But Sakurai can make the game however he wants." From a marketing point-of-view, that's a stupid argument. I also realize that the game should be targeted around the main audience/consumers A.K.A the more casual players. I might be wrong but I think that more sales will come from casuals. More time spent playing the game will come from the competitive side. After all, it's all about that net profit.

I meant that after Melee the glitches were destroyed, which were what unintentionally made Melee competitive.

Glitches? No. L-canceling was introduced in the original Smash 64 as a legitimate way to improve your speed. It said so in an online, Japanese beginners guide of sorts. I think it was originally named "smooth landing" and it was deemed an advanced technique. As for wavedashing, Sakurai was worried that players would airdodge through platforms and fall to their deaths so he implemented a way to collide with the stage elements. This caused a sliding effect due to the physics engine. Sakurai was aware of the sliding motion and he left it in the game. Was wavedashing multiple times in a row as a means of transportation unintentional? Yes, but that doesn't mean it's a glitch. It's simply a physics exploit.

Sure, there are glitches in the game but l-cancelling and wavedashing aren't in the list of glitches. Phantom hits, the black hole, and Samus' super wavedash are proper examples of glitches in Melee.

Dear God here we go again...First I've played all smash bros games (gonna get smash wii u with the Fox amiibo) but look yes melee is very competitive but sakurai has tryed his ****ing hardest to please the competitive side and what do you guys do "IT ISN'T MELEE!" Or "THERE'S NO WAVE DASHING!" Jesus shut up be happy he included for glory, the GameCube controller adapter, brought back mewto and even brought back dr mario for the melee community.....now on a competitive note I feel like the wii u will be the second best competitive game in the series.....(project m is a mod so can't count it) thank you for reading.

It's not all yelling and screaming like you make it out to be. My problem with Smash 4 and Brawl is not that they're "mechanically inferior". I dislike that they both don't uphold what the Smash series started out to be. It began as a sandbox fighting game wherein you could do custom combos with all of your favorite Nintendo characters. Now, with Brawl and Smash 4, it's "a sandbox fighting game wherein you could do custom combos with all of your favorite Nintendo characters." The core mechanic (in my opinion) was combo creativity. In the new Smash Bros, there's a lot of customize-able material but the original customization, combos, is essentially gone. It's not completely gone but it's pretty dang close.