Smash4 has not done anything to deserve EVO

[Djent]

You guys are writing walls of text about an issue that's actually pretty simple, lol. I care very little about competitive Melee, but I lose literally nothing from the game being at EVO, and it makes a ton of people happy, so why would I oppose it? Same goes for the rest of you who don't care about Smash 4.

If there's one thing I would have expected Smashers to have learned right now, it's that game success isn't exactly zero-sum. It can be if one community publicly denigrates others, but it doesn't have to be that way. I won't go as far as to say that one community's success automatically benefits others (because if that were the case, Brawl would be alive ). But I think that just because we're not holding hands, that doesn't mean we have to start choking each other, right?

Nintendo is going to push for Smash 4 to be at Evo. Sadly I think the only two options that are possible is both Melee and Smash 4 or Smash 4 over Melee.

Which is a shame because they're both widely different games. I love them both but I think Melee is much more exciting to watch and would rather watch Melee over Smash 4.

Only the latter option "is a shame," because it involves a zero-sum tradeoff between subcommunity exposures. If they both get in, that's actually the best option, because they're "widely different games."

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yes I do think Japan is leaning towards a more defensive meta than NA. But again I feel this has a lot to do with every other NA player having Little Mac as a main or secondary.


Anyway right now even from US tournies this is the vibe I'm getting when Little Mac is excluded on 3 stocks:

Competitive match but with a decisive winner (last stock each but one at kill percent other at low percents). Average 4-4:30 mins.
Competitive match that goes to last hit. Average 5-6:30 mins.

This is inline with Brawl average times. Again do I personally think this is a bad thing? Not at all, I love Brawl and actually think there is some merit in longer sets. But will TOs share the same opinion? Probably not. Brawl was notorious for getting TOs to complain about it taking to long to finish and delaying tournaments. Of course to be fair this is a problem with Smash in general.

TOs can manage even Brawl if they make sure people play their matches instead of staling it out and not playing their sets. TOs were more often the issue, not Brawl.

4 minutes a game is around the average for 3 stock with or without lil'mac. Time outs are pretty rare or anyone going to that length of time. This isn't a feel either, this is just straight up evidence of what people have been reporting and posting in the US. Sometimes shorter sometimes longer. On average in the US even with 3 stocks it's still around 4 minutes.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

I'd rather have melee at Evo for the simple fact that I like watching Melee more than sm4sh, there is no deeper meaning or reason. And I play Smash 4 way more than I play melee haha

 

[JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines)]

I'm going to say from the get go that I am neutral on this.

First off, Smash 4 does deserve atleast some chance at EVO. The TO's won't repeat what happenedwith Brawl at

EVO. I think if Smash 4's rule sets are sensible for competitive play and the meta-game evolves quickly. The last point I made is in my opinion, especially important. I'm definitely not the only person, but I thought that it was boring to watch competitive Brawl. You could make the game competitive, but it looked ugly. Mostly it was because the meta-game wasn't developed enough. If Smash 4 turns out the same, it's essentially Brawl over again. But looking at some Smash 4 matches on the 3DS, they are reasonably fast and fun to watch. At the rate we are going right now, I think the meta-game will be good enough for viewing at EVO 2015 if we try hard. We also have Nintendo's support to push this game to EVO most likely.

Then again, I feel that Smash 4 isn't the best choice for EVO. Disregarding what I said above, Smash 4 is a very new game. There is always that "risk" that the game will flop in tournament play. Even though we may be certain of the theorized outcomes, the real outcome may be completely different. I feel as though Melee is the "safe" option. It's a game most people enjoy watching competitively and it's fast paced and it has a large player base. Another thing to consider is that Smash 4 may not initially have a huge player base at the time of EVO. We may not have less entrants which may lessen our chance of getting in at EVO 2016.

All of the stuff I said above, disregard that!

Does it really matter which game goes to EVO? I don't know if anybody thought about it like this, but we, the Smash Community, are/were given the opportunity to appear at EVO, one of the biggest fighting game tournaments. It draws in many attendees and essentially proves who are the best players. I feel we take it for granted that we get a whole bunch of regional/national tournaments. It's as though people don't remember a time when Melee or Brawl didn't have as many national tournaments or regional tournaments of this caliber in terms of attendees, payout and viewers. Instead of fighting over which game to choose, shouldn't we just work together as a community to send one game to the main stage? This is personally what I feel we should do.

 

[Accelerator]

Way to tell it like it is with the last part of your quote. And yes you are right melee elitists do get butthurt when a game that can be just as good as melee comes out.

Objectively, it is not as good as Melee. There are less options at any given moment, thus it is not as good as Melee.

I'm sure I'm going to get a warning for this, but let me tell you why that's bull****.

So a game has never "deserved" or "had to prove itself" to get into EVO. The norm is the new games always get into EVO. Hell, this year, Injustice was in the tournament. The new games always get added because EVO wants to give the game a chance to shine. For some reason, it's only the Melee fans that don't want that. The other problem Melee fans have to they all this "MINE MINE MINE," mentality. It's never the Smash Brothers community. It's the Melee community. It's always separate. And last I checked, that got people into trouble during Brawl because it was the same mentality. The Smash Community grew and that's what you and other fail to see. Riding off of Melee's new found success is a great thing for the community as a whole. You have an online competitive mode where people can practice easily, and you have new players who are starting on Smash 4 and want to jump in. But no, we have to play the 13 year old game AGAIN. Also, don't give me that "they are totally different." This just shows you're ignorance of other games. In fact, I'd argue Melee and Smash 4 are closer than many sequels. Street Fighter 3 and 4 are totally different. One has a parry and the other has a focus attack. That alone changes most of the game. There is an Ultra bar, and the games have widely different rosters. A game being a different was never an issue.......unless it's the special snow flake Melee.

What annoys me about these topics is that all they are is a new excuse. It was easy when Brawl was around because you had a clear scapegoat. It was slower, it had tripping, ect. But now you have a game that's addressed those issues and added a mode for you. There is no easy scapegoat. So we have to move the goal post to justify the Melee worship and so we don't have to learn a new game. It's far more obvious now than ever.

The reason people call you all Melee elitist because that's exactly what you are. Street Fighter 3 fans never tried to block 4. I know people who like 3 far more and will not go out of there way to spite every other game. Same for any game really. It's just Melee fans. This is a time to make the Smash community big and put it on the main stage, and you all want to throw it away because it wont be Melee there, it will be something different. Stop acting like selfish children and share the damn ball.

The practice of putting the new game on the headlines for EVO cannot be compared to Smash games because those games are made with a competitive setting in mind, and most importantly those games receive recognition and support from their developers.

When people call Melee a beautiful accident, that's exactly what it was, an accident. None of the smash iterations have been made to cater to competitive players in any aspect whatsoever. When you point out sf3 and sf4, there are engine differences between the two, but the potential for deep game play is there because that is one of the developers goals, to offer deep game play.

The smash franchise is a party game made for casuals. Whether or not Smash 4 can offer a variety of options is entirely luck dependent, because it relies on the possibility of advanced techs being found in the game.

What people don't understand is that what you see of Smash 4 right now could be the endgame for years to come. The available options might already be found, and that can only change when new tech is found. New tech being found depends on the physics of the game being exploitable, or the idiosyncrasies of characters being exploitable. It's not like when you find tech not listed in the official book, that you've found an Easter egg. You've found an exploit possible only because of the games engine.

 

[ChikoLad]

Let me say right off the bat that it should be understood that Smash4 will most likely be featured at EVO as the main event, and not Melee. The obvious reasons being that Nintendo was a sponsor of EVO last year, and will probably be a sponsor in 2015. Money is now involved, and Nintendo will be looking to benefit. Getting their new release some big press only makes sense.

OP rendered the entire thread redundant with this (though even if they didn't, someone would have said it).

The practice of putting the new game on the headlines for EVO cannot be compared to Smash games because those games are made with a competitive setting in mind, and most importantly those games receive recognition and support from their developers.

And Smash 4 broke this trend. Therefore, it being at EVO makes total sense.

 

[Accelerator]

OP rendered the entire thread redundant with this (though even if they didn't, someone would have said it).

Not at all. The point was to understand the "gimme" mentality of the Smash 4 scene.

And Smash 4 broke this trend. Therefore, it being at EVO makes total sense.

Not at all. There was been no conventional support in way of setups and pot bonuses. The tournaments they've held have been in the spirit of promoting the game, not competitive gaming.

 

[JohnnyDelMidwest]

Objectively, it is not as good as Melee. There are less options at any given moment, thus it is not as good as Melee.

uuuuugh.

That's an opinion. I think that Smash 4 is much better than Melee because in my opinion the speed in Melee is way too fast and that makes it boring.

See? I can have an opinion too

 

[Accelerator]

uuuuugh.

That's an opinion. I think that Smash 4 is much better than Melee because in my opinion the speed in Melee is way too fast and that makes it boring.

See? I can have an opinion too

It's not an opinion. Checkers are an objectively worse competitive game than Chess, because the number of options and possibilities are significantly less when compared to Chess. The same holds true for Smash4 and Melee.

An opinion would be you saying that you find Smash4 more fun than Melee, which is fine.

 

[JohnnyDelMidwest]

It's not an opinion. Checkers are an objectively worse competitive game than Chess, because the number of options and possibilities are significantly less when compared to Chess. The same holds true for Smash4 and Melee.

An opinion would be you saying that you find Smash4 more fun than Melee, which is fine.

There is no objective way to say that one game is better than an another. Some people think that games with less options are better. That's their opinion and it's just as valid as yours.

 

[ChikoLad]

Not at all. The point was to understand the "gimme" mentality of the Smash 4 scene.





Not at all. There was been no conventional support in way of setups and pot bonuses. The tournaments they've held have been in the spirit of promoting the game, not competitive gaming.

You could say the exact same thing about the mentality of Melee extremists (note - it's bad to generalise - a few people saying "gimme" does not mean everyone is), and that this very thread is promoting such a mentality ("i dont want smish smash 4 at evo, doesnt deserve it, gimme melee").

Yeah, the tournaments obviously doubled as promoting the game, but to deny that they paid no mind to the competitive scene is stupid (and to assume that future tournaments by Nintendo won't change things up once the prime promotional period has ended, is also silly). They gave us the GC controller and are re-manufacturing it, despite it allegedly only being for this ONE game, they got well known professional Smashers at the Inivtational, talented Smashers old and new showed up for the 3DS tournament, etc. They've clearly been trying to slowly gear things towards us - perhaps building up to sponsoring us at EVO, and letting us make our own rules for Smash 4 tournaments (like they did with Melee last year)?

It's not an opinion. Checkers are an objectively worse competitive game than Chess, because the number of options and possibilities are significantly less when compared to Chess. The same holds true for Smash4 and Melee.

An opinion would be you saying that you find Smash4 more fun than Melee, which is fine.

False. Competitive Appeal is it's own subjective thing. Less options is actually sometimes better for people, as it makes sure people use the options they DO have to get straight to the action, rather than dilly-dallying. Some people have a preference for that, some people want more options and want to see how well people think things through and will enjoy the greater length of the competition.

 

[JohnnyDelMidwest]

Less options is actually sometimes better for people, as it makes sure people use the options they DO have to get straight to the action, rather than dilly-dallying.

Think of it this way- When you're playing The Sims (live mode) and you click on an object, would you rather have 100,000 options pop up or just a few?

Sometimes less options make a game feel more focused.

 

[Accelerator]

False. Competitive Appeal is it's own subjective thing.

I didn't say anything about competitive appeal. I was talking about depth of game play.

Less options is actually sometimes better for people, as it makes sure people use the options they DO have to get straight to the action, rather than dilly-dallying.

What? Options doesn't have anything to do with getting "straight to the action," and everything to do with forethought and potential depth of game play. Games with few options are solved, and become stagnant.

Think of it this way- When you're playing The Sims (live mode) and you click on an object, would you rather have 100,000 options pop up or just a few?

Sometimes less options make a game feel more focused.

Lol

 

[JohnnyDelMidwest]

Games with few options are solved, and become stagnant.

I think Melee is very stagnant because it's a 13 year old game that people have been playing the exact same way for years. I personally don't think that Melee should be featured in any tournament for that reason.

But that's just my opinion. It only applies to me- It has no impact on the way you think. No opinion is objective.

 

[Accelerator]

I think Melee is very stagnant because it's a 13 year old game that people have been playing the exact same way for years. I personally don't think that Melee should be featured in any tournament for that reason.

But that's just my opinion. It only applies to me- It has no impact on the way you think. No opinion is objective.

Your logic is that it's stagnant because it's old? To stagnant means to halt in progress, it has nothing to do with age.

 

[JohnnyDelMidwest]

Your logic is that it's stagnant because it's old? To stagnant means to halt in progress, it has nothing to do with age.

In my opinion, Melee has absolutely halted in progress. Melee hasn't experienced any innovation in years.

 

[Accelerator]

In my opinion, Melee has absolutely halted in progress.

A game has halted when new strategies and new things are still being seen today? You can't really have an opinion on something when there are concrete facts that prove you wrong. That's called being in denial. I'm pretty sure you're a troll though so I'm gonna stop replying to you.

 

[_Magus_]

IMO, the metagame needs to develop wayyy more before we can even justify a claim to evo. We need to figure this new game out more before we put it up there with these other fighters whose metagames are as developed as the day is long. Just my opinion.

 

[JohnnyDelMidwest]

A game has halted when new strategies and new things are still being seen today? You can't really have an opinion on something when there are concrete facts that prove you wrong. That's called being in denial. I'm pretty sure you're a troll though so I'm gonna stop replying to you.

Your opinion is not a fact. Neither is mine.

If I'm such a troll, why haven't I said anything inflammatory? What I'm saying is simply my personal philosophy.

 

[ChikoLad]

I didn't say anything about competitive appeal. I was talking about depth of game play.


What? Options doesn't have anything to do with getting "straight to the action," and everything to do with forethought and potential depth of game play. Games with few options are solved, and become stagnant.


Lol

"It's not an opinion. Checkers are an objectively worse competitive game than Chess, because the number of options and possibilities are significantly less when compared to Chess. The same holds true for Smash4 and Melee."

Sounds like you're talking about it here if you ask me.

And options do have to do with getting "straight to the action".

Melee has the option to wavedash and dash-dance easily, for example. I like these. They can be great in linking combos together. However, they have a downside - I've watched many a match where it's literally only the two players doing these for like a whole minute, in order to play mind games or find a way to approach, even though they should have no problems approaching.

This is boring, and gets in the way of the real action spectators come for. If these options did not exist, then this would not be an issue that exists.

Hence, more options can be negative, and get in the way of the action.

Your logic is that it's stagnant because it's old? To stagnant means to halt in progress, it has nothing to do with age.

Right, but what has this got to do with this topic anyway? Why are you bringing up stagnancy here?

Because Smash 4 certainly isn't either.

Also, Melee doesn't have a plethora of new stuff being discovered every day. So it's arguably aged in this sense. Smash 4, is still fresh and has tons to discover, even at a basic level.

 

[_Magus_]

Your opinion is not a fact. Neither is mine.

If I'm such a troll, why haven't I said anything inflammatory? What I'm saying is simply my personal philosophy.

Whoa, can we chill out a little here? All that's happened is a misunderstanding. No need for any anger.

 

[JohnnyDelMidwest]

Whoa, can we chill out a little here? All that's happened is a misunderstanding. No need for any anger.

He was the one who called me a troll. I do get angry when people insult me.

 

[_Magus_]

He was the one who called me a troll. I do get angry when people insult me.

And now you have the opportunity to be the bigger man and look more mature than he does. The passive victory will be yours, my friend. Just let it slide lol

 

[JohnnyDelMidwest]

And now you have the opportunity to be the bigger man and look more mature than he does. The passive victory will be yours, my friend. Just let it slide lol

when you call me out for reacting in an understandable way, that does not make me want to be the "bigger man"

 

[ChikoLad]

Tbh I didn't even register anger from that post. At all.

Seemed like a very sensible statement, actually - someone falsely accuses you of trolling, you show them you've said nothing inflammatory or disrespectful.

 

[_Magus_]

Is it honestly worth anyone's time tho?

 

[_Magus_]

anyway, guess i read that wrong. My bad!

 

[JohnnyDelMidwest]

Yes. I put a lot of effort into my rhetorical arguments so when someone calls me a troll it's pretty insulting.

Back to the point, I think Smash 4 deserves to be featured because if we don't explore the possibilities of competitive play, we could miss out on a fantastic competitive fighter. Maybe the mechanics are better than what Melee offers. We'll never know unless we give it a chance.

 

[_Magus_]

Yes. I put a lot of effort into my rhetorical arguments so when someone calls me a troll it's pretty insulting.

If someone has explained their point and not convinced the other person that they're right, they'll likely call them a troll regardless of how reasonable the other person has been. Not saying that that's what happened here, but this is the internet, so it happens all the time. Anyway, keep putting effort into your arguments, and hopefully someone will listen someday, buddy.

 

[ChikoLad]

Is it honestly worth anyone's time tho?

I have the very same feelings on this entire discussion thread, actually.

Both games are well liked. Ideally, both should be at EVO, if you ask me.

However, we know that Smash 4 at least, is definitely gonna be there, since Nintendo are supporting the community now.

Even if Melee doesn't show up next EVO, it's not so bad, as it just gives Smash 4 that first year to shine and we can see how it plays out. Melee will always be able to make a comeback after that, and possibly be at EVO alongside Smash 4.

This thread exists only to slam Smash 4 and give hypothetical reasons as to why it shouldn't be at EVO, even though we are all well aware it will be. It achieves nothing, as it will not change the inevitable future.

So really, is this entire discussion worth anyone's time?

 

[JohnnyDelMidwest]

Also, I think that we should be stoked that Nintendo is supporting the community. This means that there will be many more opportunities to be recognized as a player.

 

[ChikoLad]

Also, I think that we should be stoked that Nintendo is supporting the community. This means that there will be many more opportunities to be recognized as a player.

Not only that, but it takes an awful lot of weight off of us. It also may expand the reach of tournaments, region wise.

 

[JohnnyDelMidwest]

Not only that, but it takes an awful lot of weight off of us. It also may expand the reach of tournaments, region wise.

Yep. Places like Arkansas and Iowa that see almost no representation could get seen. And that's big.

 

[Ganreizu]

Back to the point, I think Smash 4 deserves to be featured because if we don't explore the possibilities of competitive play, we could miss out on a fantastic competitive fighter.

You act like smash4 not being at evo means no one has or will explore the possibilities of competitive play. What do you think melee players were doing for the half decade when it wasn't at evo? Oh right, i forgot you think melee has been played the same way for 13 years and hasn't seen any innovation lately.

 

[JohnnyDelMidwest]

You act like smash4 not being at evo means no one has or will explore the possibilities of competitive play. What do you think melee players were doing for the half decade when it wasn't at evo? Oh right, i forgot you think melee has been played the same way for 13 years and hasn't seen any innovation lately.

That's not what I think. I think that Melee players are using the same tactics that they've been using for years.

It might be helpful for you to understand my perspective. I see Melee the same way I see Windows XP. It's still in use, but it's outdated and has been replaced. Yet, some people continue to hold on to it. Sure, some people have made tweaks to it but the overall product remains the same.

 

[ChikoLad]

You act like smash4 not being at evo means no one has or will explore the possibilities of competitive play.

It's not that, it's just that being at EVO means the high level play is very exposed, for people to take pointers from. Especially if new techniques are outright discovered there and then by accident (or someone discovers one prior and exposes it to the public via EVO, which would make it exposed and well choreographed by the technique user, meaning it could come off as especially hype).

Not that it matters, since again, Smash 4 WILL be at EVO, whether we like it or not. Hopefully Melee makes it too.

 

[Ganreizu]

That's not what I think. I think that Melee players are using the same tactics that they've been using for years.

It might be helpful for you to understand my perspective. I see Melee the same way I see Windows XP. It's still in use, but it's outdated and has been replaced. Yet, some people continue to hold on to it. Sure, some people have made tweaks to it but the overall product remains the same.

Yes, you do. You said it earlier. Even if you wanted to change what you said or assert that it's an opinion, it's still not true.

There you go comparing apples to oranges again. At least you switched to a decent example instead of comparing it to the iPhone. I would have had some real fun replying to that one.

Melee hasn't been replaced, not even by P:M.

It's not that, it's just that being at EVO means the high level play is very exposed, for people to take pointers from. Especially if new techniques are outright discovered there and then by accident (or someone discovers one prior and exposes it to the public via EVO, which would make it exposed and well choreographed by the technique user, meaning it could come off as especially hype).

Sure not denying that. Fact is people think the game will legitimately never be played again if it isn't at evo, and that's just not true for either SSB4 or SSBM. The community argument doesn't even really work either, since having either game hosted will mean both scenes grow.

Whether or not SSB4 deserves to be at evo will depend on how well it does (entrants, viewers, satisfaction levels of both parties, that kind of stuff) at other big tournaments though, but it won't affect SSB4's inclusion at evo regardless.

 

[chipndip]

A game has halted when new strategies and new things are still being seen today? You can't really have an opinion on something when there are concrete facts that prove you wrong. That's called being in denial. I'm pretty sure you're a troll though so I'm gonna stop replying to you.

You're such a Melee-elitist it kind of hurts.

1) More options =/= better game, or Tekken > all 2D fighters. Since the latter is obviously not true, the former isn't either. Rather than making a saint out of a happy accident (which is the best way to describe Melee), can we PLEASE MOVE ON? The franchise isn't going to go further when half the fan-base keeps playing the role of "cancer" to those trying to push the newer entries, especially now that they're actually trying to cater to the competitive players of the franchise.

2) Between a decade old game and a brand new game, I'd rather have the brand new game at EVO. That's just how I personally do things. The point is to move forward with the series, not stay stagnated in 2001 and use that entry to define what makes a good Smash game: A bunch of bugs, exploits, and coding imperfections.

3) The only other franchise that turned out well via the "happy accident" route is MvC. Despite how broken it got as the vs. series moved on, people liked the Marvel characters, and the game became a classic. If MvC2 was "Jimmy's Super Punch Time!!!" and UMvC3 was "Jimmy and Timmy's Super Duper Punch Time!!!", everyone would call those games out for how objectively buggy and/or imbalanced they are. Same with Melee...just less so. The Nintendo characters and the "classic" status keeps people from realizing that if it weren't for that, we wouldn't really appreciate a game that evolved into something almost entirely dependent on movement exploits and glitches with a heavily imbalanced roster.

Short version: Really wouldn't want to shoot part of the community in the foot, but why on Earth are there Melee players that are so adamant and vocal about putting down this game for not having Melee's imperfect engine? Guys...STOP IT. I know for a dang fact that I would never play a game that old competitively. I appreciate classics, but I like to move on with the times too. That's what sequels are for, so stop tearing down this one.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

When people call Melee a beautiful accident, that's exactly what it was, an accident. None of the smash iterations have been made to cater to competitive players in any aspect whatsoever. When you point out sf3 and sf4, there are engine differences between the two, but the potential for deep game play is there because that is one of the developers goals, to offer deep game play.

The smash franchise is a party game made for casuals. Whether or not Smash 4 can offer a variety of options is entirely luck dependent, because it relies on the possibility of advanced techs being found in the game.

What people don't understand is that what you see of Smash 4 right now could be the endgame for years to come. The available options might already be found, and that can only change when new tech is found. New tech being found depends on the physics of the game being exploitable, or the idiosyncrasies of characters being exploitable. It's not like when you find tech not listed in the official book, that you've found an Easter egg. You've found an exploit possible only because of the games engine.

There is a mode literally made for competitive players and they added an adapter just for game cubes. They removed problems that comp players of Brawl had issues with.

How is this not being made for a compeditive crowd?

 

[byebye]

Melee had its share of the spot light in its time. And it doesn't help that Mang0 and Fox wins almost every major and minor tournaments out there.

Smash 4 is new, exciting, there's a lot to be discovered, lot to be developed, a lot to learn. fresh start on all smashers.

Let's all just move on. It's just a game. there'll be new smash games in a few years, we'll argue about it again.

sooner or later, games get outdated by newer versions of games. See broodwar -> SC2. DotA -> Lol / DotA2. SF2 -> SF3 -> SF4. It's difficult to have good stats, and it's difficult to transition smoothly on these games. since every game is different from another.

This is the difference of e-sports vs sports. traditional sports have a clear and set standard rules for years, and that foundation doesn't change ever. In basketball, players have been playing for all their life and the game never changes. You can teach your kid the game and the game never changes.

for us gamers, we don't have that. we just need to adapt and move on. old games will fade sooner or later. no matter the craze people have for SF2 or broodwar, it got replaced one way or another. Melee won't be untouchable and it won't be on top always.

But all this negativity to Smash4 by Melee are.... not sure what word to say here. but it's not good. and we need to stop. it's just a game.