Smash4 has not done anything to deserve EVO

[byebye]

Let me reverse the question.

What do you think Melee did / have
so that any future iteration of Smash needs to do something
in order to be deserving in being in Evo?

----------------------------------------------------------

I'll tell a story.
I consider my self very good in MK DS. with all that snaking stuff. knows the best lines. knows the best strategy per track.

In MK wii, they removed snaking. put in inner drifting bikes. then more changes on MK 7... then MK8...

I just can't help but miss the old MK DS where I'm very very good at.

 

[D-idara]

Objectively, it is not as good as Melee. There are less options at any given moment, thus it is not as good as Melee.



The practice of putting the new game on the headlines for EVO cannot be compared to Smash games because those games are made with a competitive setting in mind, and most importantly those games receive recognition and support from their developers.

When people call Melee a beautiful accident, that's exactly what it was, an accident. None of the smash iterations have been made to cater to competitive players in any aspect whatsoever. When you point out sf3 and sf4, there are engine differences between the two, but the potential for deep game play is there because that is one of the developers goals, to offer deep game play.

The smash franchise is a party game made for casuals. Whether or not Smash 4 can offer a variety of options is entirely luck dependent, because it relies on the possibility of advanced techs being found in the game.

What people don't understand is that what you see of Smash 4 right now could be the endgame for years to come. The available options might already be found, and that can only change when new tech is found. New tech being found depends on the physics of the game being exploitable, or the idiosyncrasies of characters being exploitable. It's not like when you find tech not listed in the official book, that you've found an Easter egg. You've found an exploit possible only because of the games engine.

Objectively, it's not as good as Melee.

You're almost funny.

Smash4 was designed thinking about deep, competitive play...also, you seem to the be the kind of people who thinks that if all the game's options are available to you without doing weird controller seizures, then the game's not deep, well that's not true, the game can be perfectly simple and easy to control and still be very deep because of good game design, which is the case with Smash4.

 

[Accelerator]

Objectively, it's not as good as Melee.

You're almost funny.

Smash4 was designed thinking about deep, competitive play

No. Every single smash iteration has been made with casual play in mind. A mode for battlefield only and removing tripping does not mean that Sakurai did a 360 and is now suddenly designing for competitive play.

 

[JohnnyDelMidwest]

That's not what I think. I think that Melee players are using the same tactics that they've been using for years.

No. Every single smash iteration has been made with casual play in mind. A mode for battlefield only and removing tripping does not mean that Sakurai did a 360 and is now suddenly designing for competitive play.

I know that this is probably not something I should say but you are being so abrasive and elitist and you need to stop. The best possible smash game IMO is the one that is designed for casuals AND Competitive play.

 

[Accelerator]

I know that this is probably not something I should say but you are being so abrasive and elitist and you need to stop. The best possible smash game IMO is the one that is designed for casuals AND Competitive play.

How am I being elitist? It's a fact that Smash is a franchise made with the casual player in mind.

 

[byebye]

Objectively, it is not as good as Melee. There are less options at any given moment, thus it is not as good as Melee.

Objectively?

Smash 4 is in HD
Smash 4 is in portables
Smash 4 supports online play
Smash 4 has a lot more modes of play
Smash 4 has more characters
Smash 4 has more stages
Smash 4 has customizations
Smash 4 has a lot more content
Smash 4 supports Amiibo
Smash 4 support a wide array of control options
Smash 4 is in eShop
Smash 4 have potential for future support (DLC / patches)
Smash 4 can potentially support 8 players XD

I can't see how Smash 4 is not as good as Melee.. "Objectively".

 

[JohnnyDelMidwest]

How am I being elitist? It's a fact that Smash is a franchise made with the casual player in mind.

You are being elitist because you are blindly attacking Smash 4 for no discernible reason. Well, I guess you have named some reasons, but they make absolutely no sense and they blow your cover as a melee fanboy.

 

[D-idara]

No. Every single smash iteration has been made with casual play in mind. A mode for battlefield only and removing tripping does not mean that Sakurai did a 360 and is now suddenly designing for competitive play.

- Final Destination versions of stages.
- Huge focus on balance.
- Solid fundamentals and testing, smooth gameplay.
- The game remembering certain options.
- For Glory.
- Custom moves.
Those all sound like things that were made with competitive players in mind.

 

[JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines)]

Does this really matter? Melee and Smash 4 are good in their own rights.

 

[SmashChu]

Objectively, it is not as good as Melee. There are less options at any given moment, thus it is not as good as Melee.

Oh boy. I bet you I know where this is going.

The practice of putting the new game on the headlines for EVO cannot be compared to Smash games because those games are made with a competitive setting in mind, and most importantly those games receive recognition and support from their developers.

When people call Melee a beautiful accident, that's exactly what it was, an accident. None of the smash iterations have been made to cater to competitive players in any aspect whatsoever. When you point out sf3 and sf4, there are engine differences between the two, but the potential for deep game play is there because that is one of the developers goals, to offer deep game play.
The smash franchise is a party game made for casuals. Whether or not Smash 4 can offer a variety of options is entirely luck dependent, because it relies on the possibility of advanced techs being found in the game.

Doesn't the newest Smash Bros have an online mode made specifically for competitive play?

Again, it's moving the goal post. Because the games aren't made for competitive play, it means Melee has to be at EVO, because that the most logical conclusion you could draw from "The games are made for casuals." The fact is, most games that are played at that level aren't made specifically for tournament play. Street Fighter 2 wasn't. Same for a lot of shooters. What these games were designed for is competitive multiplayer, where you fight other players. That's the defining factor. There is no "more competitive." Melee, Brawl and 4 are all competitive multiplayer games and that alone justifies it being in tournaments.

What people don't understand is that what you see of Smash 4 right now could be the endgame for years to come. The available options might already be found, and that can only change when new tech is found. New tech being found depends on the physics of the game being exploitable, or the idiosyncrasies of characters being exploitable. It's not like when you find tech not listed in the official book, that you've found an Easter egg. You've found an exploit possible only because of the games engine.

[/QUOTE]
So we shouldn't have Smash at EVO 4 because of a far reaching assumption which could easily be false. This is moving the goal post if I ever saw one. And I don't think the competitive Smash should be entirely based on exploits. This is one of the biggest problems Melee has created. Because the game is based on wavedashing and L canceling, people think that ALL of the games have to be based on that. Again, Smash is a competitive multiplayer game and you can be better than the other guy so I don't see the problem.

I have yet to hear a good argument on why Smash 4 should not be at EVO. So far, it's been moving the goal post to justify more Melee for the next 6 years. I fail to see how that's good for the community.

 

[GreenFlame]

Remember, Nintendo's watchdogs are now keeping track of our community. They've openly admitted to having accounts on Smashboards. They've been observing us,...

Wait...they really have people observing us on Smashboards? When and where did they say this? Wow!

Heck, if we shoot for the stars enough.... Melee HD re-release???

Yes! We need this! And it's gotta have the exact same physics as Melee. This probably won't happen though, but I personally would love to see it, and I'm sure many other people would as well.



As for my opinion on what should be featured at EVO, obviously like everyone else I would like both. But that likely won't happen. I think that right now, we need Smash4. It's new, and nobody's completely sure of just how good it is compared to Melee yet (come on, it's only 10 days old for outside of Japan), but that's why we need it to be featured. We just need to give Smash4 a chance to show what it is, and perhaps the year after we can have both games featured.

If anyone is worried Melee will no longer be popular if it's not featured, think again. There are so many top-level players dedicated and it's currently the best Smash game competitively, so it will always have a place, hopefully alongside Smash4.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

No. Every single smash iteration has been made with casual play in mind. A mode for battlefield only and removing tripping does not mean that Sakurai did a 360 and is now suddenly designing for competitive play.

He's put more care for comp play this time around more than any other smash game.

 

[byebye]

Wait...they really have people observing us on Smashboards? When and where did they say this? Wow!

And thanks to this thread, EVO and Ninty now knows that people are more hyped for Smash4 being into Evo2015.

 

[JohnnyDelMidwest]

I have yet to hear a good argument on why Smash 4 should not be at EVO. So far, it's been moving the goal post to justify more Melee for the next 6 years. I fail to see how that's good for the community.

Owned.

 

[TunaAndBacon]

Though I love playing Melee more and I find it much more interesting to watch, I believe Sm4sh being the center game at Evo could possibly be beneficial for both. Even though Smash bros was and always will be a game intended for a casual audience, I've found that "For Glory" mode is still really popular, despite me being much better then everybody I've played on it. This means that even though these people are not quite really good yet ( because believe me when I say I'm far from ever being the best.) they still the take the game at least semi seriously, and might want to increase their skill at the game. Which ultimately leads to watching better players and seeing what they're doing, and copying their tactics.

So a lot of these players would more likely then not watch EVO in hopes of learning a couple of tricks or two as the character they want to improve at, which in tern leads to more views on streams and matches on Youtube. Hopefully this will interest them in to the competitive scene of the game, and eventually they could stumble across Melee. And after seeing the pace, combo system, and technical skill, they might eventually get into it, and have an appreciation for both games. Just don't show them wobbling.

However on Melee's side, it has an established meta game, rivalries, very passionate players, and its already been at Evo twice. I mean c'mon, no matter what game you play you have to admit that Mang0 deserves a shot at defending his title, and donating 95 grand to Breast cancer for your game is something worth mentioning, regardless of rather it was Brawl or Smash 64 fans, that's a lot of dosh for a game never designed to be played at a comp level.

I want both more then anything in my heart for this series of games, but if Melee isn't their it will seem like all that donating was a waste.

 

[Deleted member]

It really doesn't matter to me. SM4SH or Melee.

Mango will win either way, right?

 

[TunaAndBacon]

It really doesn't matter to me. SM4SH or Melee.

Mango will win either way, right?

Though I believe just copy pasting Mango in to Sm4sh wouldn't make much difference, I don't think he cares about it too much

 

[byebye]

M2K / Armada / Zero for me. those 3 have more exposures in other games than Melee, compared to Mang0. They are more likely more adaptable and and used to the adjustments on playing totally different games on a high level.

 

[TunaAndBacon]

M2K / Armada / Zero for me. those 3 have more exposures in other games than Melee, compared to Mang0. They are more likely more adaptable and and used to the adjustments on playing totally different games on a high level.

Though that may be true this thread is about Melee deserving a spot at Evo over Sm4sh or not, we can argue about Waifus are favorite players on another day or thread.

 

[byebye]

Though that may be true this thread is about Melee deserving a spot at Evo over Sm4sh or not, we can argue about Waifus are favorite players on another day or thread.

agreed, so let's kill the mang0 talk and what he cares or not care about shall we?

 

[JohnnyDelMidwest]

Though that may be true this thread is about Melee deserving a spot at Evo over Sm4sh or not, we can argue about Waifus are favorite players on another day or thread.

I get that Melee is popular but change is good. If Sm4sh being included means Melee isn't, so be it.

 

[TunaAndBacon]

I get that Melee is popular but change is good. If Sm4sh being included means Melee isn't, so be it.

You kinda are ignoring the point I made their, it wasn't that Melee is popular, because obviously the newer game is just going to be more popular. It's that Melee has developed itself at Evo. I don't think the TO's would drop Melee after it donated so much back in 2013 to be at Evo then cut it out just because a new game in the franchise came out. It would be like buying yourself a car but then your younger sibling gets it from you for free because your parents ( in this scenario Nintendo or the TO's) said so.

 

[byebye]

You kinda are ignoring the point I made their, it wasn't that Melee is popular, because obviously the newer game is just going to be more popular. It's that Melee has developed itself at Evo. I don't think the TO's would drop Melee after it donated so much back in 2013 to be at Evo then cut it out just because a new game in the franchise came out. It would be like buying yourself a car but then your younger sibling gets it from you for free because your parents ( in this scenario Nintendo or the TO's) said so.

The donation thing was so EVO2013. We are talking about EVO2015 now. Stop living in the past people.

And who said only Melee players donated?

 

[Kuraudo]

Oh for the love of--

I can't believe I read through all of this.

The donation thing was so EVO2013. We are talking about EVO2015 now. Stop living in the past people.

And who said only Melee players donated?

Backing this up by saying I donated, and while I do compete in Melee, my primary game was Brawl. We all worked together to beat Skull Girls to obtain a spot and lo and behold the hype was real and we did something magical. We brought Super Smash Bros. to the main event and rocked it. We rocked it for 2 years in a row. And we had the entire community to thank for it.

At this point Melee is too big to be going anywhere in the competitive scene. Dropping off from EVO I don't see it dwindling either. Especially with the sponsors for players everywhere and how many tournaments there are outside of EVO.

So now that we have a brand new Smash Bros. game with some appealing new mechanics and fixes to the previous game that dwindled interest for some, even if it's not your cup of tea, suddenly the Melee community turns their back on it? Like it's some kind of territory they marked and no one else can touch it?

This is why I find myself detached from the community at times.

The Melee scene is hype and awesome, but good god... You guys ready for 6 more years of "THE NEW SMASH BROS. VS MELEE"!? I know I am!

Not.

**** this.

 

[TunaAndBacon]

The donation thing was so EVO2013. We are talking about EVO2015 now. Stop living in the past people.

And who said only Melee players donated?

I never said only Melee plays did, but sm4sh players certainly didn't And regardless of whether or not it was just Melee fans who donated, it was the community together that believed in Melee, ( the spirit bomb didn't take from just one race of people, but all of them, that's why its the spirit bomb.)

And the past is important, because this games past leads to rivalries, a very strong and well developed meta, and incredibly hype combos and plays. Sm4sh deserves to have all of this, but it's too new for any of what I mentioned, I think this game should develop a bit more before hopping onto such a huge and important stage to the FGC.

 

[byebye]

I never said only Melee plays did, but sm4sh players certainly didn't And regardless of whether or not it was just Melee fans who donated, it was the community together that believed in Melee, ( the spirit bomb didn't take from just one race of people, but all of them, that's why its the spirit bomb.)

And the past is important, because this games past leads to rivalries, a very strong and well developed meta, and incredibly hype combos and plays. Sm4sh deserves to have all of this, but it's too new for any of what I mentioned, I think this game should develop a bit more before hopping onto such a huge and important stage to the FGC.

of course no smash4 players donated at that time. but guess what? who are playing smash4 now? is it not m2k and zero streaming a few weeks ago? You're giving melee too much credit. even if it was 64, PM or brawl is in the donation drive, I doubt skull girls will beat us for that last slot.

almost whole page gone by and nobody dared to answer my question.

What do you think Melee did / have
so that any future iteration of Smash needs to do something
in order to be deserving in being in Evo?

Why does some think Melee is entitled to that status, to the point that other games need to prove itself.

 

[Hana Na Tahou]

I *really, REALLY* shouldn't get involved in this discussion, but oh well: Here's a compromise (if such a thing can be accomplished) Let Smash 4 have EVO this one time (slow down now, i'm not finished yet). As was stated already, it's the new game, and Nintendo likes money. For the Melee players, get involved in the scene, and show some of the players Melee. Try it, don't be critical of the new game, but take the initiative, and expose them to your game. Then what happens is Melee gets a boost, while Smash 4 isn't being driven into the ground like a Ganon DownA Meteor Smash. Just try it once, we can do this people. Now you could say Melee obviously doesn't need said boost, which could be correct. But new blood is always good, and each Community can coexist without this little battle that's being waged here. I love Melee, it was my first Smash game, and i'll always love it, but there is a time where everyone as a community needs to help each other for the good of the game itself. After all, we're all playing Smash, no matter how different the engine or physics are.

 

[ShrekItRalph]

Smash 4 will draw the bigger numbers as the new game.
Smash 4 will likely be backed by Nintendo
So chances are no matter how much you think it doesn't deserve it, it will be there.
Smash 4 deserves at least one shot of being played, It's always good to bring in new blood every once in a while.

 

[TunaAndBacon]

of course no smash4 players donated at that time. but guess what? who are playing smash4 now? is it not m2k and zero streaming a few weeks ago? You're giving melee too much credit. even if it was 64, PM or brawl is in the donation drive, I doubt skull girls will beat us for that last slot.

almost whole page gone by and nobody dared to answer my question.

What do you think Melee did / have
so that any future iteration of Smash needs to do something
in order to be deserving in being in Evo?

Why does some think Melee is entitled to that status, to the point that other games need to prove itself.

Melee had a long bumpy ride in and out of Evo, its community and competitive scene have gone through quite a struggle to get where it is now. So Sm4sh just waltzing it's way on to the main stage of Evo with an underdeveloped meta and after melee has been there twice now would just seem unfair. I think the community should prove its passion before it gets a free pass to Evo.

 

[JohnnyDelMidwest]

Melee had a long bumpy ride in and out of Evo, its community and competitive scene have gone through quite a struggle to get where it is now. So Sm4sh just waltzing it's way on to the main stage of Evo with an underdeveloped meta and after melee has been there twice now would just seem unfair. I think the community should prove its passion before it gets a free pass to Evo.

It's completely fair to give priority to a brand new game. That's kind of how this stuff is supposed to work. There is no reason why Melee should continue to be promoted when it has already had such a long run. Change is good and we need to recognize that what we considered to be the best game 5 years ago may not be the best game now.

 

[byebye]

Melee had a long bu
mpy ride in and out of Evo, its community and competitive scene have gone through quite a struggle to get where it is now. So Sm4sh just waltzing it's way on to the main stage of Evo with an underdeveloped meta and after melee has been there twice now would just seem unfair. I think the community should prove its passion before it gets a free pass to Evo.

I agree that Melee had a long and bumpy ride in Evo. But that has got nothing to do with Smash4 being in Evo.
I think it's just silly that one game needs to prove something first before being in Evo.

At the end of the day, money matters.
Melee got into Evo2013 again because of money.
Melee got into Evo2014 because of money (number of entrants, number of people watching on stream, backing from Nintendo)
Smash4 will get into Evo2015 because of money
Seriously, if you pay a few million bucks to Evo just to get Melee in Evo2015, I'm sure they would.

Doesn't matter if the game had such work needed to be done just to continue with the competitive scene.
it just money, and Smash4 has that money now.
1.) For sure Nintendo will back it up.
2.) Theoretically it can pull in a lot of entrants - game is new, EVERYONE is back to square one, meaning there are equal chances for anyone to compete, 64 players, melee, brawl, PM, and new smash4 player have a good chance to win.
3.) And it has the potential to pull in viewership too since new players are interested to see how pros play the game and eager to learn new things, and see how the game develops.

Edit: And life is unfair. Deal with it.

 

[Code Bread]

Oh, hey, I forgot about this thread. Probably because I'm not subscribed to it, and I don't know how to do that without posting. Sorry to raid all of your alerts, but I want to watch this because it's all pretty silly.

 

[JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines)]

Oh, hey, I forgot about this thread. Probably because I'm not subscribed to it, and I don't know how to do that without posting. Sorry to raid all of your alerts, but I want to watch this because it's all pretty silly.

FINALLY

 

[Code Bread]

FINALLY

pls elaborate for me buddy

 

[JohnnyDelMidwest]

seriously tho, every time you get melee fanboys riled up it's gonna be silly

 

[TunaAndBacon]

seriously tho, every time you get melee fanboys riled up it's gonna be silly

see now you're trolling
I'm not riled up but I'm just salty a game can get in for free after Melee fought a lot to get to where it is now. I'm fine with passing the batton but it doesn't mean I'm gonna be behind it all the way, again it can lead to potential growth for both communities, but as a big time melee fan it would pain me to see it go, and it would be like that for a lot of people. I mean BH4 certainly isn't as big as evo but 37K viewers aren't going anywhere.

 

[JohnnyDelMidwest]

see now you're trolling
I'm not riled up but I'm just salty a game can get in for free after Melee fought a lot to get to where it is now.

I wasn't talking about you. You've been perfectly reasonable. Yes, I fundamentally disagree with your perspective but you've never been abrasive about it.

 

[GreenFlame]

see now you're trolling
I'm not riled up but I'm just salty a game can get in for free after Melee fought a lot to get to where it is now. I'm fine with passing the batton but it doesn't mean I'm gonna be behind it all the way, again it can lead to potential growth for both communities, but as a big time melee fan it would pain me to see it go, and it would be like that for a lot of people. I mean BH4 certainly isn't as big as evo but 37K viewers aren't going anywhere.

Melee won't go. Even when Smash 4 makes an appearance at EVO, a year later if nobody liked Smash 4 then Melee will be there. Melee won't die from not being featured at EVO. It's the biggest and currently best Smash competitively, people aren't just gonna let it die like that.

It will continue to thrive; unless Smash 4 is better in every way, which I doubt it is - each Smash game is different from the others for different reasons.

 

[byebye]

I'm not riled up but I'm just salty a game can get in for free after Melee fought a lot to get to where it is now.

Look, it's really unfortunate that Melee has to do so much effort to be what it is now. But that has nothing to do with Smash4 and its chances on beign in Evo2015.

But bottom line is new games get included in Evo. Period.

Are you also salty that Killer Instinct got into Evo for free because it got invited into Evo just because it is new?
Are you going to be that salty again if Tekken7 goes into Evo in the future?

Why don't you just accept the fact that Smash4 will get into Evo, regardless of how Melee's scene did. Just like any other FG game out there. Like Injustice, like PSABR. Melee's success / failure has nothing to do with it.



I know you feel bad because Smash4's chances in Evo2015 is big. and the one going to be affected most is Melee.

I get that. But really, instead of challenging Smash4's "deservability", if ever there's such a word, why don't you just make arguments on Melee replacing other old and unpopular FG that gets a slot in Evo? Why attack Smash4?

Best thing you and other Melee fans can do is make arguments for why Melee AND Smash4 be in Evo.
That way even Smash4 fans will then not be against you, but they will be with you on that.
Then we can take it forward to the Evo TOs. Make a statement that Melee AND Smash4 in EVO2015 makes a lot of sense.

 

[Teshie U]

If Melee "deserved" EVO, it wouldn't have been something the community needed to jump through hoops for. The FGC still sees it as a 2nd rate game in a "pity" slot on the lineup.

If Melee "deserves" it, there will be no question about it coming back, like any other game that gets consecutive years without having to beg for it.