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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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Bionichute

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By your own logic, Captain Falcon is boring because all he does is punch and kick.
what. i didn't say anything like that, i like captain falcon because of the reasons that other guy doesn't. did you quote the wrong person

Carmack himself has stated nobody should really care what he's called. (Doom) Marine sounds more professional and marketable than Doomguy.

Although yeah it's weird that they supposedly didn't use Doom Slayer. Could have more to do with Doom 64 alt.
i might be wrong but i think the doom marine in all of the games is the same guy. there's like, a plot point in doom 2016 relating to it im pretty sure??
 

Shroob

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Doom Marine
Doom Guy
Doom Slayer


The guy has multiple names.



The only way for this leak to die besides the creator saying it's fake, is to see someone who's not one of the 3.
 
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Captain Shwampy

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The apparent gist is they're all equivalent characters in a sort of Alph situation, which is kinda sorta supported by the datamine referring to their class rather than their name (Brave being the literal translation of Yuusha.) Vergeben said he's almost always heard Luminary said alongside Erdrick.
Shouldnt the DQ1 and 2 hero be costumes too tho

or is this just marketing towards the recent DQ games in japan
 

praline

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Carmack himself has stated nobody should really care what he's called. (Doom) Marine sounds more professional and marketable than Doomguy.

Although yeah it's weird that they supposedly didn't use Doom Slayer. Could have more to do with Doom 64 alt.
Xander announcing him as “DOOMGUY” would be pretty ridiculous lol
 

Impa4Smash

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Another problem with the leak is DOOM itself. It's very very obscure and unpopular in Japan. At least with Dragon Quest, there are far more people familiar with the series in the west than DOOM in Japan. I'm pretty sure Nintendo wants characters that have familiarity with both regions. Like Minecraft which is also popular in Japan as it is in the west.
Maybe Doom sells well enough in the west to warrant DLC or Nintendo wants to continue their good relationship with Bethesda or maybe it’s about being iconic - Sakurai has called the creator of Doom the father of FPS so he at least likes/respects the series.

Or maybe all of the above.
 

Double K

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what. i didn't say anything like that, i like captain falcon because of the reasons that other guy doesn't. did you quote the wrong person
Hey, I never said I didn't like Captain Falcon. Just that he's a bad pick if you're trying to go for being unique lol
 

Pyr

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The feel when I'm a future DLC character and I see people arguing about who I am, but I'm just patiently waiting to join the fray:



Sorry that I don't have much else to contribute. I feel the DLC conversations get super heated for no reason what-so-ever and it's why I almost never come to the thread anymore.
 

Deoxys911

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The only criteria is that a third party should originate from a video game and carry history with them. Sakurai more recently mentioned having "worldwide popularity," but the inclusion of Erdrick extends our perception of that and shows that popularity in one market can make up for a supposed lack of popularity in another.
Did Bayonetta carry history with her? I thought she was purely a fan/promotional pick.
No **** the rabid Smash fanbase would be oogling over the trailer of a character wanted for over a decade, that doesn't prove anything.
I can't believe the official upload of Ridley's trailer only has 113,000 views! Talk about a character that fans were rabid over, not to mention that many ridiculed the mere idea of getting in, making his inclusion all the more shocking. How is his trailer not in the millions?! I can only imagine his fans were hospitalized for hype-othermia due to how cool they thought it was during the E3 broadcast.
 

Hydrualic Hydra

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If 'Joker-DQ Hero-Steve-Hayabusa-Doom' really is our DLC lineup-

Joker: I've never played any SMT or Persona games, but the legacy is definitely there, and one of my best friends love Persona 5 to death, so I'd call Joker a good pick for sure. And he's the closest I'll ever get to Jojo in Smash so I'll play him regardless.

DQ Hero: Leaning towards the idea that each skin is a different protagonist, which is actually pretty killer. Never played Dragon Quest, and don't have any real interest in it, but the legacy is absolutely there. It's deserved.

Steve: Sadly, another character and game I have no real interest in, but again, another character/game that deserves it. Lends itself to a lot of creativity.

Ryu Hayabusa: NINJA GAY-DEN? IN SMASH? YES

Doom Slayer:

Please

I just want a trailer to start with Samus fighting Ridley to a standstill, then for the classic E1M1 to start up as Doom Slayer drops in

It's all I need, Doom Slayer is my #2 most wanted western 3rd party (behind Battletoads)
 

P1ZZ4CHU

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i might be wrong but i think the doom marine in all of the games is the same guy. there's like, a plot point in doom 2016 relating to it im pretty sure??
Yeah you're right, I mistook 64's story for being noncanon.

Another problem with the leak is DOOM itself. It's very very obscure and unpopular in Japan. At least with Dragon Quest, there are far more people familiar with the series in the west than DOOM in Japan. I'm pretty sure Nintendo wants characters that have familiarity with both regions. Like Minecraft which is also popular in Japan as it is in the west.
Potential counter-argument. The same argument could be made against Erdrick. Dragon Quests's lack of Western popularity could be seen as a risk that could be offset by a character that would most likely resonate stronger with the Western audience. It's all conjecture of course.
 

Arthur97

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Why? Because he's not someone you like? Or another reason?

1. What do I seem awfully confident about? "Brave" not being Agumon? Yeah I'm confident in that, especially when Erdrick and Yuri fit in with that better, as the word "Brave" is related to their characters in a similar way to how "Jack" is related to Joker. It's like an analogy or a word puzzle. Having one item with the word brave (one that's used by an evolution and not even the original character) is too far off to likely fit, unless you want to say someone like Finn from Fire Emblem could be "Brave" because he prominently uses a Brave Lance. Agumon would likely have a code like "Digi" or "Tama," not "Brave."

2. Veterans were a good thing for Sm4sh, yes. But in a game with every veteran already in, your point about falls apart.

3. So then do you want Snake and Cloud cut? Metal Gear hasn't had a prominent release on Nintendo consoles since 2012, and at the time of his inclusion in Brawl he was advertising Metal Gear Solid 4, which didn't release on the Wii alongside every other Metal Gear game. Cloud, one of the largest 3rd party additions, advertises Final Fantasy 7, one of the biggest middle fingers to Nintendo ever regardless of Nintendo's association with the franchise. Snake represents Metal Gear Solid, a prolific gaming series (he was also a favor for a friend), and Cloud and Joker, while not known for Nintendo appearances, represent Final Fantasy and Shin Megami Tensei, two series with historical ties to Nintendo. The point here is that **** like the "console wars" don't matter, it's what the characters represent and their legacy that does.

Word from the man himself. You may not like it, but that doesn't mean it's unlikely, nor is it a bad choice.
You just made it sound like veterans were a bad thing.

You seemed fairly confident about what first party DLC wouldn't be.

Honestly, yes I would, but at least Cloud represents something important. Snake was pretty much a personal favor, so, yeah cut him.
 

TMNTSSB4

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Just in Case, here's the category of the swordfighters in Smash (Not final since I don't know all of their playstyles):
Spacing: Marth, Lucina, Shulk
Comboing: Corrin, Meta Knight, Young Link
Spacing w/ some aggressive play: Lucina, Corrin
Rushdown/Going Ham: Roy, Chrom, Meta Knight, Young Link (I think)
Heavy Hitter: Ike, also Cloud, maybe Link
All-Round: Cloud(?), Mii Swordfighter, Pit, Dark Pit
Zoner: Mii Swordfighter (W/ the Gale, and chakram), Robin(?), Young Link, Toon Link
Set-ups: Robin, all of the Links
The Pits aren’t really swordsfighters (heck the dual blades are only half of a bow)...not sure if they even get to count compared to all the actual swordfighters
 

Shroob

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You just made it sound like veterans were a bad thing.

You seemed fairly confident about what first party DLC wouldn't be.

Honestly, yes I would, but at least Cloud represents something important. Snake was pretty much a personal favor, so, yeah cut him.
But, why.

Why would you 'want' to remove characters that bring with them completely unique movesets and IPs?


Smash hasn't been about being pure-Nintendo since Melee, and I hope it stays this way.
 

theromfather

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Am I the only one who wouldn't be particularly excited if we got Joker, Steve, Doom Marine, Ryu and Dragon Quest Rep? I mean I'm gonna buy the pass regardless because I want to have all characters but if it's those 5 characters, I'm not particularly thrilled though I understand that many people are. I just think Steve especially is a lame choice and Doom Marine might be cool but idk tbh.
 

Bionichute

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Potential counter-argument. The same argument could be made against Erdrick. Dragon Quests's lack of Western popularity could be seen as a risk that could be offset by a character that would most likely resonate stronger with the Western audience. It's all conjecture of course.
i think that smash bros tends to have a hierarchy of importance based on where characters are popular

japan supersedes all other areas in the world due to internal biases, western appeal characters are much lower down the rung by like a lot, and then there's characters that are popular in other places which probably don't even exist in the game

basically if a game is popular/well remembered in japan, its more likely to pop up in smash bros than anywhere else due to the devs mainly being japanese. there's a handful of characters that appeal specifically to the western demographic, but otherwise the game is mostly based around japanese popularity
 

LetterO

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Honestly, yes I would, but at least Cloud represents something important. Snake was pretty much a personal favor, so, yeah cut him.
No, Snake's cool. Who gives a damn about what company owns who, what a character represents, or why the character got in? They're cool. Sakurai thought they were cool to add. That's what matters.
 

N3ON

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To be fair, it's not like Piranha Plant was an Assist character in any of the previous games. False equivalency.

Other than that, I am politely letting others down in case their hopes are crushed again. I'm the sort who doesn't want to see another repeat of Isaac returning as an Assist. Besides, it's not like I'm 100% against Assist Trophy promotions. It's why I listed other examples that have seemingly-good chances of becoming playable in the sequel. Who knows? Maybe Waluigi will get his chance after all (just an example)
Having good intentions doesn't make it sound logic. If you stacked up the amount of fan rules built on the premise of "it hasn't happened yet so it won't happen" which have crumbled away, versus those people still believe, you'd see why this perspective is ultimately doomed to fail, eventually.

Especially since this seems to be predicated solely on the fact that it hasn't happened yet, and no real reasoning past that.
Even though it has already happened with Pokeballs and bosses, which is the closest equivalency you'll get.
 

Graizen

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Now imagine this trailer at E3:

Steve is inside the Nether ( Hell in Minecraft ), he finds his Smash Invitation inside a Chest.

But he is surounded by Nether Monsters , than Doomguy explodes a Wall and apears to help Steve in Hell.
 
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fleshdude.gov

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My only problem with this is that we'll probably get Erdrick revealed relatively soon if his statistics are already in the game files.


Revealing two characters at E3 would mean that there'd only be 1 left, and the DLC is supposed to run until Feb 2020.
Feb 2020 was likely a tentative listing at the time. It could all be released before that point.

Steve and Doomguy have the personality of a rock.
Steve has no predefined personality, yeah. Doomguy, on the other hand, has always had quite a bit of personality.

On the other hand however, Smash has been known for giving characters personalities when they didn't really have any before - see Captain Falcon or Incineroar, for instance.

Maybe Doom sells well enough in the west to warrant DLC or Nintendo wants to continue their good relationship with Bethesda or maybe it’s about being iconic - Sakurai has called the creator of Doom the father of FPS so he at least likes/respects the series.

Or maybe all of the above.
Alternatively, it could be an inverse of the Dragon Quest inclusion - help market DOOM to a Japanese audience.


All that being said, I am inclined to believe this leak, if only because it matches what Reggie said at the Game Awards - all of these 5 fighters are surprising (to the average viewer) and are completely new to Smash.
Still find the complete lack of content relating to Porky or Giygas rather glaringly odd though.
 

Shroob

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Can I just be blunt and say:

It's been 17 years since Melee.


The era of "Smash is a Nintendo only game" is over.



3rd parties are here to stay, and the more the merrier. Outside of a VERY small handful of 1st party characters left out of this game, what does Nintendo really have left to offer for Ultimate that's not already an Assist Trophy?
 

N3ON

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are people really trying to argue K. Rool is a Smash Bubble character? lmaooooooo
I know sometimes it's hard to make it to the end of the sentence but the Smash bubble was invoked for the perspective of K. Rool being more well known than Ryu Hayabusa. Not for calling K. Rool a bubble character.
 

TMNTSSB4

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Can I just be blunt and say:

It's been 17 years since Melee.


The era of "Smash is a Nintendo only game" is over.



3rd parties are here to stay, and the more the merrier. Outside of a VERY small handful of 1st party characters left out of this game, what does Nintendo really have left to offer for Ultimate that's not already an Assist Trophy?
Goomba for Smash...duh...and there’s no such thing as a “small handful of 1st party characters outside of AT characters”...otherwise we wouldn’t have gotten :ultpiranha: of all characters
 
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are people really trying to argue K. Rool is a Smash Bubble character? lmaooooooo
I used to think that, but seeing how big a deal the reveal was outside our bubble after it happened, I have to admit I was super wrong on that, lol.

The only one I feel is truly in a speculation bubble is probably Geno (Please don't hurt me, I have nothing against the puppet. Just my thoughts on him.). Bandana Dee is also a little exaggerated sometimes, NGL.
 
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P1ZZ4CHU

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Alternatively, it could be an inverse of the Dragon Quest inclusion - help market DOOM to a Japanese audience.
My only issue with this explanation is that, if we're assuming this rumor is true, then Nintendo has an active stake in Dragon Quest seeing as how they'll be publishing it (presumably in the West at least.) They don't really have any involvement with DOOM Eternal beyond "hey this game is on our system buy it."
 
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Can I just be blunt and say:

It's been 17 years since Melee.


The era of "Smash is a Nintendo only game" is over.



3rd parties are here to stay, and the more the merrier. Outside of a VERY small handful of 1st party characters left out of this game, what does Nintendo really have left to offer for Ultimate that's not already an Assist Trophy?
Tons of those ATs would be dope as playable characters, just sayin'.
 

N3ON

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Can I just be blunt and say:

It's been 17 years since Melee.


The era of "Smash is a Nintendo only game" is over.



3rd parties are here to stay, and the more the merrier. Outside of a VERY small handful of 1st party characters left out of this game, what does Nintendo really have left to offer for Ultimate that's not already an Assist Trophy?
poke floats
 

TheCJBrine

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Steve does have personality, he's a hard-working survival guy/creative guy/giant death skeleton-fighter guy/dragon-fighter guy/brave guy/cowardly guy/crap he's whatever you want help what do I say.
 

Zinith

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Can I just be blunt and say:

It's been 17 years since Melee.


The era of "Smash is a Nintendo only game" is over.



3rd parties are here to stay, and the more the merrier. Outside of a VERY small handful of 1st party characters left out of this game, what does Nintendo really have left to offer for Ultimate that's not already an Assist Trophy?
Do I even need to elaborate?

:yoshi:
 

Arthur97

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But, why.

Why would you 'want' to remove characters that bring with them completely unique movesets and IPs?


Smash hasn't been about being pure-Nintendo since Melee, and I hope it stays this way.
It's been 99% about Nintendo until 4's DLC. People seem to forget this is a Nintendo game and that will never not be true. Why should series that have little to nothing to do with Nintendo be in it? Besides, the statement was more of I'd be fine with cutting him and I would if I were in charge, but I'm not actively calling for him to be cut (though he probably will be). I'm moreso about stemming the flow of third parties and giving priority to first parties. You know, the company whose game this is.

Meanwhile there are people like you who seem fine if they outnumbered the first parties.
 
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P1ZZ4CHU

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I don't really think lack of personality has anything to do with character viability. Personality can be given very easily just by mechanics. It's a basic concept of composition. You can make a bunch of squares look whimsical by slightly tilting them. Steve could very well get an emergent personality from a playstyle and a few flourishes. In fact that's kinda Minecraft's whole schtick. You get back what you put in.

It's been 99% about Nintendo until 4's DLC. People seem to forget this is a Nintendo game and that will never not be true. Why should series that have little to nothing to do with Nintendo be in it? Besides, the statement was more of I'd be fine with cutting him and I would if I were in charge, but I'm not actively calling for him to be cut (though he probably will be). I'm moreso about stemming the flow of third parties and giving priority to first parties. You know, the company whose game this is.
People seem to think companies actually care about this kind of stuff. They aren't jealous anime schoolgirls. They're corporations with a bottom line. If Nintendo feels it's more profitable to wrangle up some third party all stars for a fighting game full of all stars, that's what they'll do. They've probably decided they're running out of bombshells until new games come out. That's the only "priority" they care about: money.
 
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Deoxys911

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Tons of those ATs would be dope as playable characters, just sayin'.
I wouldn't be shocked if at some point we get the ability to play as bosses and Assist Trophies in a special mode patched into the game. Between the Master Hand fight in WoL and the nuclear reaction to Waluigi being an AT, it really seems like the time for it to happen. Honestly, that's what I thought the Piranha Plant trailer was revealing at first! But if not in Ultimate, I imagine it will at least come with the next installment à la Squad Strike after that mechanic's debut in Smash Tour. I'm definitely looking forward to it, personally!
 

Bionichute

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i am in the camp of liking some third parties but really just wanting more actual first party characters even if they're very obscure choices
 
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