Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Arthur97]

Fire Emblem as evidenced by the sub's reaction to Chrom

A bit different as they were already repped and not a third party.

Plus, they can hardly agree on anything. I often consider them amongst the worst of fandoms.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Can I just be blunt and say:

It's been 17 years since Melee.


The era of "Smash is a Nintendo only game" is over.



3rd parties are here to stay, and the more the merrier. Outside of a VERY small handful of 1st party characters left out of this game, what does Nintendo really have left to offer for Ultimate that's not already an Assist Trophy?

Funny thing is, the whole "it's only Nintendo" is pretty much just the focus of the first game only. The Japanese title has Nintendo All-Stars Great Fray Smash Bros. They dropped the Nintendo All-Stars bit from every game after. It's just alternate versions of Great Fray Smash Bros. in some way.

It just happened to have all Nintendo content, but it wasn't really a true intention to be just about Nintendo anyway. There was no time to really go into ideas like 3rd parties in 64. Melee was rushed, and that's why he couldn't add Sonic and Snake, due to not enough development time. There's nothing to suggest among any of Sakurai's statements he even would care that Sonic had no Nintendo appearances at that point(this was before he went 3rd party, that Yuji Naka asked). A key point here is how little he cares about console wars, and even less about Nintendo important for 3rd parties in itself. Now some can absolutely get in due to the Nintendo factor(this is probably what made Bayonetta remotely possible. Besides a good moveset idea).

Pretty much, besides the 1st game, it was never meant to focus on Nintendo only. It was just kind of difficult to license stuff, so it worked out that way during Melee. It's not remotely surprising it shows tons of love for other 3rd party games where possible.

 

[fleshdude.gov]

Well, if you want to get into it...

Doom Slayer's personality has always been one of brutality and insanity. He's a borderline monster himself, but he has to be. The fact that he's all alone in literal Hell necessitates that. See that face in the bottom of the screen? That portrait there at the bottom of the screen conveys what you should be feeling. That murderous grin when you pick up a weapon, that animalistic snarl of holding down the trigger full auto, the deterioration of your status as you take more and more damage, it's an anchor to direct the player. Even the fact that you're glancing around warily tells you that you should be looking around for more things to shoot.

So yeah, by giving the player's avatar those touches and encouraging certain behaviours you're crafting a character that anyone who plays will come to identify with. Doomguy is literally Doom. He's every single second of gameplay. Run and gun, rip and tear, disregard for flowery prose, screw storytelling, let me hit stuff because they all deserve it and I should be enjoying it.

Personality isn't restricted to one liners and dialogue, it's conveyed through being. And Doomguy has quite an explosive personality. It's been pretty damn consistent throughout the entire series.

Doomguy is not completely without joy or mercy, though. There's quite a few moments in DOOM 2016 and what we've seen of DOOM Eternal which show this more than the original games - such as when he dies in lava and does the terminator 2 thumbs-up, or at one point where he finds a toy marine figure and plays with it.

Also, Doomguy has a bit of a code of honor - he won't hurt living people if he can avoid it. Dead/possessed people are fine though.

 

[TheCJBrine]

It's not a general crossover. Not yet anyway, and I severely hope it never is.

Even the gaming history point of view falls short since it is still so much Nintendo unless you think 80+% of gaming history is them.

If it's not general-gaming characters even if the leak is true, then I see no reason to complain, especially since if Nintendo cares, they'll just not re-negotiate some third-parties for the next game. They might just stick with Sonic, Mega Man and Pac-Man, and maybe replace a few of the cut ones. Some of these third-parties are even seen as Nintendo all-stars despite not being owned by Nintendo.

Honestly, since it's Nintendo we're talking about, then I'm pretty sure they're always going to make their franchises the focus, with just a few or so third-parties on the box and, of course, the ads for the third-party characters for their fans and the companies.

 

[Deleted member]

Damn

are you Mr. Fantastic? Because that sure is a stretch

Did somebody call me?

 

[P1ZZ4CHU]

Of course their fandoms would be excited. Which fandom wouldn't be to get a rep?

Yeah, but having the entire fighting pass be third party? Especially when selling it blind? Kind of presumptious to assume all those people wanted all third parties in their Nintendo fighting game DLC. Which it still is even if you and others try to tell yourself otherwise.

Reggie literally said on camera that Smash Bros is a celebration of gaming in general.

Guess who's opinion carries more weight.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

See, thing about this Brave situation is...

This is character data. They're referring to the characters literally, sure it may be a nickname or shorthand but it would still have to make sense because nobody wants to have to sit there and go "I'm looking for Villager. Is he Cherry Tree or Town Hall?" Naming a character with such a deep, bizarre, irrelevant pull has no practical value.

It's 99% Erdrick/Luminary/DQ Heroes given what we know. It's not gonna be some super secret reference to anyone else, not with the way character names have been for the past two games.

I mean, when dataminers tried to find data for the final DLC characters for Injustice 2 they had Scooby Doo and that dude from Shadow of Mordor names. It's absolutely Erdrick but to say the codenames need to be a big clue for the actual character is false

 

[LetterO]

It's not a general crossover. Not yet anyway, and I severely hope it never is.

Even the gaming history point of view falls short since it is still so much Nintendo unless you think 80+% of gaming history is them.

No, that's just wrong.

A game with Mario, Sonic, Mega Man, Pac Man, Cloud, Snake, Bayonetta, Simon, Richter, Ryu, Ken, Joker, and possibly Steve, Doomguy, and Erdrick ISN'T a general crossover or still a big crossover?

 

[Double K]

Look if Smash goes "Gaming Hall of Fame" just imagine the possibilites

I can have Dante from Devil May Cry series against Hito-Shura

I can put Lucina against Artoria

I can have Sol Badguy against Cloud Strife

Belmont family vs Arcueid Brunested why not

Professor Layton solving a Mystery with Battler Ushiromiya on "How to dunk the hardest"

Dovahkiin and The Avatar from Ultima teaming up to face against Anduin Wrynn

LETS DO THIS

 

[culumon]

I totally get wanting Smash to first and foremost be a celebration of Nintendo's history, and I can understand being picky about the 3rd parties that make it in when it comes to, say, the wildcard picks who are emblematic of another console entirely (Cloud, Joker, Snake to a lesser extent)... but to my mind the likes of Mega Man and Simon unambiguously belong in a crossover of Nintendo All-Stars. A celebration of the history of Nintendo that begins and ends with its first party output only seeks to celebrate a history that never existed.

 

[P1ZZ4CHU]

I mean, when dataminers tried to find data for the final DLC characters for Injustice 2 they had Scooby Doo and that dude from Shadow of Mordor names. It's absolutely Erdrick but to say the codenames need to be a big clue for the actual character is false

Yeah fair point. I still say that given the general lack of that going on in past datamines, it's not likely to be too obscure a code, but I could be wrong and this could be the start of the trend.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Except they don't have to buy them if they're displeased with the DLC.

However, that's not going to change the course of the series' future. We've been getting more and more 3rd parties since Brawl, and I welcome it.

I've said this before, but:

All of the really good Nintendo characters are already in Smash. I'd rather be getting amazing, iconic 3P characters than scrape the bottom of the Nintendo barrel.

 

[Double K]

Yeah fair point. I still say that given the general lack of that going on in past datamines, it's not likely to be too obscure a code, but I could be wrong and this could be the start of the trend.

Code needs to be something that can't get mixed up for something else, so as long as everyone on the team knows who it is talking about it can be whatever.

You could code Mario as "TheGrinch" and so long as nothing else could be mistaken for it, it works

 

[Shroob]

I've said this before, but:

All of the really good Nintendo characters are already in Smash. I'd rather be getting amazing, iconic 3P characters than scrape the bottom of the Nintendo barrel.

What, you DON'T want such iconic characters like Birdo, Kiddy Kong or Pink Gold Peach?


Perish the thought.


/s

 

[Double K]

What, you DON'T want such iconic characters like Birdo, Kiddy Kong or Pink Gold Peach?


Perish the thought.


/s

CAPTAIN RAINBOW~

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I've said this before, but:

All of the really good Nintendo characters are already in Smash. I'd rather be getting amazing, iconic 3P characters than scrape the bottom of the Nintendo barrel.

That's a fact right there. Got to appeal to more than "HOLY **** I CAN GET NES GAMES I HAVE TO LOG IN ONLINE ONCE A WEEK WITH NINTENDO'S ONLINE SERVICE AND THEY'RE ADDING ICE CLIMBER? I'M GOING TO ****ING NUT" crowd

 

[Deleted member]

I've said this before, but:

All of the really good Nintendo characters are already in Smash. I'd rather be getting amazing, iconic 3P characters than scrape the bottom of the Nintendo barrel.

Crash Bandicoot would be a great 3rd Party Pick for Smash.

 

[Arthur97]

No, that's just wrong.

A game with Mario, Sonic, Mega Man, Pac Man, Cloud, Snake, Bayonetta, Simon, Richter, Ryu, Ken, Joker, and possibly Steve, Doomguy, and Erdrick ISN'T a general crossover or still a big crossover?

Tell that to the 60+ Nintendo characters.

I totally get wanting Smash to first and foremost be a celebration of Nintendo's history, and I can understand being picky about the 3rd parties that make it in when it comes to, say, the wildcard picks who are emblematic of another console entirely (Cloud, Joker, Snake to a lesser extent)... but to my mind the likes of Mega Man and Simon unambiguously belong in a crossover of Nintendo All-Stars. A celebration of the history of Nintendo that begins and ends with its first party output only seeks to celebrate a history that never existed.

I agree to an extent. I don't call for no third parties, I call for smart ones. Ones with ties to Nintendo. Mega Man is about as Nintendo as it gets. Even several spin offs were exclusive to Nintendo.

 

[P1ZZ4CHU]

Code needs to be something that can't get mixed up for something else, so as long as everyone on the team knows who it is talking about it can be whatever.

You could code Mario as "TheGrinch" and so long as nothing else could be mistaken for it, it works

I understand that, it's just not the MO so far. Sure, could be true, and it would be a good policy for DLC. I just don't think it is given the circumstances.

 

[N3ON]

If you've played DOOM, particularly the most recent one, you'll know that Doomguy does not interact with his environment as most genericFPSguys do. And therein lies his personality, of which the best way to describe it would be: real mad.

Also for anyone who can remember the western gaming landscape in the 90s, I'd hope you'd agree that DOOM has earned its stripes as a landmark, iconic title. Very seminal for the fledging genre, and for 3D gaming in general.

And yeah, he wouldn't much cater to Japan. Much like Erdrick would cater mostly to them. So everything is still perfectly balanced. As all things should be.

 

[LetterO]

Tell that to the 60+ Nintendo characters.

That doesn't invalidate the fact that the 3rd party lineup is great.

 

[Arcanir]

Well, if you want to get into it...

Doom Slayer's personality has always been one of brutality and insanity. He's a borderline monster himself, but he has to be. The fact that he's all alone in literal Hell necessitates that. See that face in the bottom of the screen? That portrait there at the bottom of the screen conveys what you should be feeling. That murderous grin when you pick up a weapon, that animalistic snarl of holding down the trigger full auto, the deterioration of your status as you take more and more damage, it's an anchor to direct the player. Even the fact that you're glancing around warily tells you that you should be looking around for more things to shoot.

So yeah, by giving the player's avatar those touches and encouraging certain behaviours you're crafting a character that anyone who plays will come to identify with. Doomguy is literally Doom. He's every single second of gameplay. Run and gun, rip and tear, disregard for flowery prose, screw storytelling, let me hit stuff because they all deserve it and I should be enjoying it.

Personality isn't restricted to one liners and dialogue, it's conveyed through being. And Doomguy has quite an explosive personality. It's been pretty damn consistent throughout the entire series.

This is something I feel people really miss when they say 'well character x has no personality' in games, actions and details can help convey the character of someone so much more then dialogue can at times. Doomguy may not be the most developed guy on the block, but you still get the gist of who he is through those little details that the game inserts, and as you said that's all he needs to tell you who he is without the game throwing pointless dialogue at you. Those little bits and pieces do go a long way, and not having someone's personality thrown at you doesn't mean they're a complete blank slate.

 

[Arthur97]

That doesn't invalidate the fact that the 3rd party lineup is great.

It still means it's by and large a Nintendo event.

 

[Bionichute]

I totally get wanting Smash to first and foremost be a celebration of Nintendo's history, and I can understand being picky about the 3rd parties that make it in when it comes to, say, the wildcard picks who are emblematic of another console entirely (Cloud, Joker, Snake to a lesser extent)... but to my mind the likes of Mega Man and Simon unambiguously belong in a crossover of Nintendo All-Stars. A celebration of the history of Nintendo that begins and ends with its first party output only seeks to celebrate a history that never existed.

yes, absolutely. third party characters are fine BUT they need to have some major connections to nintendo. pac-man and sonic are arguably the only ones that get a pass because they're pac-man and sonic, but characters like ryu, snake, and bayo really stretch it, and characters like cloud and joker absolutely do not need to be here, even if i actually like joker

that's my problem with this leak, out of all these characters, only two fit into being part of nintendo's history, hayabusa (even if i really don't like him) and erdrick, while the other two are, frankly, pretty nonsense inclusions. steve and doomguyslayerman are far more associated with pc gaming than they are with consoles at all, especially nintendo consoles.

 

[Double K]

I understand that, it's just not the MO so far. Sure, could be true, and it would be a good policy for DLC. I just don't think it is given the circumstances.

I'm more reaffirming you. The "Brave is referencing the statue" is too much of a stretch because it doesn't make sense as a shorthand for code

 

[KarneraMythos]

Look if Smash goes "Gaming Hall of Fame" just imagine the possibilites

I can have Dante from Devil May Cry series against Hito-Shura

I can put Lucina against Artoria

I can have Sol Badguy against Cloud Strife

Belmont family vs Arcueid Brunested why not

Professor Layton solving a Mystery with Battler Ushiromiya on "How to dunk the hardest"

Dovahkiin and The Avatar from Ultima teaming up to face against Anduin Wrynn

LETS DO THIS

That list is way too good to be true, even in a long span of time. Good to see another Arcueid fan here.

I've said this before, but:

All of the really good Nintendo characters are already in Smash. I'd rather be getting amazing, iconic 3P characters than scrape the bottom of the Nintendo barrel.

There's at least one I really want that may or may not be doomed to fade into obscurity within his own company, sadly.

 

[Noipoi]

PPlant, Joker, Steve and Erdrick seem alright, but Doom Guy and Hayabusa are just really bleh to me.

I guess that's what I get for not being born in 1980

 

[P1ZZ4CHU]

Tell that to the 60+ Nintendo characters.

1) Gee willikers, you mean to tell me a company uses its own properties in videogames it owns? Stop the presses.
2) We have word from the high ups that it's not considered a Nintendo crossover anymore. They brag about it being the most ambitious and far-reaching crossover in history. Reggie said he considers it a celebration of gaming history in general. Sakurai himself told an interviewer that being on a Nintendo platform was a courtesy and not a requirement.
3) Third parties obviously get added in lower numbers because it's more legal waters to navigate. If you own something, you use it. If you don't, you negotiate for it. That takes time and money, so it can't be done willy nilly.

I agree to an extent. I don't call for no third parties, I call for smart ones. Ones with ties to Nintendo. Mega Man is about as Nintendo as it gets. Even several spin offs were exclusive to Nintendo.

So your highly specific vision of what makes a "smart" third party pick should override anything else? Who died and made you Nintendo?

 

[Deleted member]

PPlant, Joker, Steve and Erdrick seem alright, but Doom Guy and Hayabusa are just really bleh to me.

I guess that's what I get for not being born in 1980

I only know Hayabusa because of the AVGN, tbh.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I mean, when dataminers tried to find data for the final DLC characters for Injustice 2 they had Scooby Doo and that dude from Shadow of Mordor names. It's absolutely Erdrick but to say the codenames need to be a big clue for the actual character is false

It is bizarre to me that Nintendo isn't smart enough to realize they should just be labeling these characters as character71, character72, etc.

 

[Shroob]

It is bizarre to me that Nintendo isn't Smart enough to realize they should just be naming these characters as character71, character72, etc.

If they haven't learned by now, they never will.

 

[Zinith]

Huh, I'm sensing a "[insert fan of game company] is dumb" vibe brewing.

I should reiterate that I used to be a PlayStation kid

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Smash became a massive gaming crossover event ages ago. It hasn't actually had the official title of Nintendo in its name as a game besides literally the first game. The "Super" part in the international versions doesn't even exist in the original. It was a marketing play to guarantee sales, as they weren't sure it would do well outside of Japan, where it was lucky to have went overseas.

Smash is no longer really a Nintendo Fighting Game. It's a Massive Fighting Game Crossover that has a reasonable focus on Nintendo, where it started from.

They aren't the same thing. Both Reggie and Sakurai pretty much already have confirmed it's not literally "Nintendo: The Fighting Game". They have actual knowledge of its purpose and the intent behind the series. At some point one just needs to accept it isn't what you thought it was. That said, expect more 3rd parties, and they'll keep coming because the narrative is actually "fighting game crossover" instead.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

It's been 99% about Nintendo until 4's DLC. People seem to forget this is a Nintendo game and that will never not be true. Why should series that have little to nothing to do with Nintendo be in it? Besides, the statement was more of I'd be fine with cutting him and I would if I were in charge, but I'm not actively calling for him to be cut (though he probably will be). I'm moreso about stemming the flow of third parties and giving priority to first parties. You know, the company whose game this is.

Meanwhile there are people like you who seem fine if they outnumbered the first parties.

I mean, based on this game there’s hardly any compelling first party characters left.

No offense to fans of the characters, but what’s more compelling...a small round guy with a bandanna and spear from Kirby that brings stuff from a series already in Smash, or a character that brings an entire game universe, brand new music, and a new stage to play on? For the most part the answer is obvious.

In addition, no offense to you but Smash wouldn’t be nearly as successful as it is now if it weren’t for 3rd parties. Believe it or not, Nintendo isn’t the only good gaming company...there’s several other characters from other companies that would drive up sales that Bandanna Waddle Dee wouldn’t.

I used to be an “Only Nintendo” type of guy. But i’ve far outgrown that. The argument that characters that “don’t have Nintendo history shouldn’t be in Smash” is silly and easily moves goalposts.

Even if you don’t like Snake, he was the first 3rd party in Smash. That’s historic for the trend of the franchise as a whole. He was popular enough among the fans of Smash to bring him back.

This, folks, is why I hate the concept of “reps” and “connection to Nintendo”. It’s basically, “If it’s not Nintendo, it isn’t worthy”. It’s just...weird. Venture outside of the Nintendo bubble, and you’ll find some really great games.

Who knows? Maybe you’ll want them in Smash!

Basically, this is like the character select screen argument. Snake, Cloud, Ryu and Bayo are fun to play, you know, because it’s a video game.

Unless of course, you stare at the screen all day and just enjoy the images of the characters.

 

[Double K]

but characters like ryu, snake, and bayo really stretch it, and characters like cloud and joker absolutely do not need to be here, even if i actually like joker

Street Fight 2's most iconic port was the SNES port, Metal Gear while starting on iirc the Commodore was more accessible on the NES, Bayo is now basically owned by Nintendo

 

[Deleted member]

It is bizarre to me that Nintendo isn't Smart enough to realize they should just be naming these characters as character71, character72, etc.

This post right here.

DarthEnderX outsmarted all of us.

 

[Arthur97]

yes, absolutely. third party characters are fine BUT they need to have some major connections to nintendo. pac-man and sonic are arguably the only ones that get a pass because they're pac-man and sonic, but characters like ryu, snake, and bayo really stretch it, and characters like cloud and joker absolutely do not need to be here, even if i actually like joker

that's my problem with this leak, out of all these characters, only two fit into being part of nintendo's history, hayabusa (even if i really don't like him) and erdrick, while the other two are, frankly, pretty nonsense inclusions. steve and doomguyslayerman are far more associated with pc gaming than they are with consoles at all, especially nintendo consoles.

Sonic is very tied to Nintendo's history.

Cloud, I'm more okay with now since FFVII is coming to Switch.

Ryu...maybe since SF2 was so big on SNES, but the lack of modern support definitely doesn't warrent it's current treatment.

Simon is an NES icon. Richter at least had an appearance on SNES.

Mega Man needs no introduction.

Bayonetta is at least practically a second party at this point.

Joker though...the main thing going for him without Persona 5 coming to Switch is that Sega owns him.

Doomguy is just bizarre as he is hyper violence and demonic imagery. At least the new one got on Switch.

 

[Darkbeard]

I totally get wanting Smash to first and foremost be a celebration of Nintendo's history, and I can understand being picky about the 3rd parties that make it in when it comes to, say, the wildcard picks who are emblematic of another console entirely (Cloud, Joker, Snake to a lesser extent)... but to my mind the likes of Mega Man and Simon unambiguously belong in a crossover of Nintendo All-Stars. A celebration of the history of Nintendo that begins and ends with its first party output only seeks to celebrate a history that never existed.

Which is exactly why Banjo-Kazooie should be in. I don't think you can adequately represent the N64 Era without them. RARE and the N64 were like peas and carrots.

 

[Double K]

This post right here.

DarthEnderX outsmarted all of us.

protip; try not to avoid characters as numbers in code because typos could cause astronomical bugs that are hard to find

 

[Deleted member]

Ok, now that Ryu Hayabusa is the topic, i want all of you to see this video.

protip; try not to avoid characters as numbers in code because typos could cause astronomical bugs that are hard to find

Ok.