Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Tree Gelbman]

Why are Bowser Jr fans hung up on the paint brush?

Jr uses it in ONE canon non-spin-off game. And this point it's as dated as F.L.U.D.D. being in Mario's moveset is.

So why are people so hung up on him not using it save his Final Smash?

It's actually far more likely to connect the clown car to him than the paintbrush these days.

 

[osby]

I don't want Zelda to stray too far from what she has now.

If she gets revamped alongside her BoTW look just give her the Champions powers that Link uses.

Weirdly enough, Zelda has one of my favourite movesets. Most of her moves have weird frame data and hitboxes which makes her hard to use, but I really like the concept behind her. I think she's a blast to use in casual play. Like to know I'm not the only one.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Weirdly enough, Zelda has one of my favourite movesets. Most of her moves have weird frame data and hitboxes which makes her hard to use, but I really like the concept behind her. I think she's a blast to use in casual play. Like to know I'm not the only one.

I adore Zelda, but that's mainly because I stray away from the competitive side of Smash Brothers all together. So I legit don't give two craps if she's bottom tier. To me she's fun and a blast to use.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Metroid Other M received a lot of representation and it was also developed by team ninja.
Hyrule Warriors has by far the best Zelda design too

You know I was thinking about this today. A lot of stuff I see against Hyrule Warriors content (mainly Ganondorf and Impa's design) is that it's a "compilcated situation" copyright and trademark wise. But didn't the same situation apply for Other M and we got pretty much exclusively Other M content.

Is there really a difference with Hyrule Warriors I'm missing? Like maybe original characters like Lana and Linkle.

 

[CBO0tz]

Have we discussed the idea of all characters having unique victory themes? It really bothers me that characters such as Rosalina, Dark Pit and Meta Knight have completely different victory themes, while everyone else has their generic shared series victory themes. It's something that I've wanted since the Smash 4 speculation period, and it should definitely happen.

I def think villains deserve their own themes, but giving every character a unique victory theme doesn't sound -that- necessary. I'm fine with Luigi having the SMB victory theme.

 

[Gumzilla]

Ok just a random thing I noticed about the console wars. Mattel attempted to join the war at least TWICE! The Intellevision was meh from what I've heard but then there was.... the Hyperscan.

 

[SamuXCI]

Its funny to think we use to live in a world where Donkey Kong's dash attack was a useless stubby push kick.

 

[Icedragonadam]

I would love every character to get a unique Victory theme since that was originally planned in Brawl.

-Like something from Luigi's Mansion for Luigi
-Ness and Lucas getting a theme from Mother 2 and 3 respectively
-Lucario, Greninja, and the Gen7 newcomer getting something from their Gen debut.

 

[osby]

I adore Zelda, but that's mainly because I stray away from the competitive side of Smash Brothers all together. So I legit don't give two craps if she's bottom tier. To me she's fun and a blast to use.

Me too. Is it just me or it's hard to find people who only plays casually in Smash speculation?

 

[Spikeez]

I honestly hope some of the victory themes from Brawl get changed, I don't really like them as much as the ones Melee and the Smash 4 newcomers got.

 

[MrReyes96]

You know I was thinking about this today. A lot of stuff I see against Hyrule Warriors content (mainly Ganondorf and Impa's design) is that it's a "compilcated situation" copyright and trademark wise. But didn't the same situation apply for Other M and we got pretty much exclusively Other M content.

Is there really a difference with Hyrule Warriors I'm missing? Like maybe original characters like Lana and Linkle.

I think they can use stuff from the game no problem. I hope Zelda and Ganondorf get those outfits because they’re both sexy af

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Me too. Is it just me or it's hard to find people who only plays casually in Smash speculation?

As a competitive player, I think my gripe with focusing balance towards the casual crowd is that the casual crowd will play the game regardless. I played Melee and Brawl as a casual, and I never knew how ridiculous Fox or Meta Knight were. It just didn't matter. A good character can be completely stopped once you throw in items, stage hazards, etc. But the competitive community is largely impacted (or not impacted at all) by how good or bad a character is.

 

[LancerStaff]

Metroid Other M received a lot of representation and it was also developed by team ninja.
Hyrule Warriors has by far the best Zelda design too

It was still directed by Sakamoto, who works at Nintendo. They just outsourced the grunt work. OM is also a main game.

HW was directed by TK, and is just a spin-off. Not even sure if Nintendo owns the designs, though I feel like they do.

 

[Arcanir]

While that's true, it also has to do with the fact that the Zelda is the mortal incarnation of the goddess Hylia. Also it was her duty in Breath of the Wild to pray to the Goddesses to grant her the strength to seal away Ganon. The Champions just protected her along the way.

The thing is, the Hylia connection wasn't established (at least not properly) until over a decade later with Skyward Sword, which came after Melee and Brawl. At the time, the only thing the three spells had going for them was Zelda having the Triforce (and thus being connected to the goddesses through that), otherwise they're not really more associated with her anymore then they would be Ganondorf or Link.

That's not to say they should remove the spells and replace them with the Champion's abilities, but I do think there's a bit of hindsight bias in saying the spells fit Zelda more when back in Melee they had a pretty weak connection to the character as well.

 

[Sonic Poke]

As far as I know Hyrule Warriors is a spin-off title made by a third party. I seriously doubt next game will include anything from it aside from some trophies and maybe music.

Why? Doctor Mario is a spins off character. He got in. Twice.
BTW, Zelda uses a sword in some titles. Twilight Princess is one of them. That is not HW exclusive. Some inspiration can definitely be drawn from there. Just like some Megaman move are inpired in Marvel vs Capcon.

 

[Roberk]

Buff Ike was appreciated for RD representation, but we need PoR Ike back.

 

[Deleted member]

What revamps do you wanna see. Do you wanna see Ganondorf get Ancient armor? Or possibly see Olimar get Rock & Winged Pikmin like in "Hey! Pikmin"?

-Ganondorf using actual magical powers and maybe a weapon (the Gamecube Tech Demo Sword, the Sword of Six Sages, the Trident, whatever) instead of punching and kicking.
-Kirby having a moveset that is less generic (the specials are fine, just change the Smash Attacks, tilts, and aerials)
-Samus using her arm cannon much more instead of punches and kicks (think Mii Gunner for example)
-Wario using his Shoulder Bash as a special move (like in Project M or SSF2) and references to his "statuses" from the Wario Land series (like in the Mod "Smash 2" in which Wario becomes "Dizzy" for his Dash Attack)
-Roy becoming more unique by using Fire-Sword based attacks (for example, shooting fire projectiles from his Sword)
-Dr Mario becoming a full-on Deadly Doctor.

 

[Ura]

It's a travesty that we never got Master Foot yet as a boss. Such as wasted opportunity.

Buff Ike was appreciated for RD representation, but we need PoR Ike back.

^

 

[osby]

As a competitive player, I think my gripe with focusing balance towards the casual crowd is that the casual crowd will play the game regardless. I played Melee and Brawl as a casual, and I never knew how ridiculous Fox or Meta Knight were. It just didn't matter. A good character can be completely stopped once you throw in items, stage hazards, etc. But the competitive community is largely impacted (or not impacted at all) by how good or bad a character is.

I mostly agree (though I think it's a good thing how telegraphed some hard hitting moves are fore casual players, like Falcon Punch). I just don't like how people calls characters like Dedede or Wii Fit Trainer trash just because they are low on tier lists. Like, they are characters, not just hitboxes and frame data.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Buff Ike stays.

PoR Ike is a wimp. Does he even lift bro?

 

[Deleted member]

Buff Ike isn't going anywhere. Ike's whole thing is that he's a burly swordsman, so the buff design is definitely going to remain since it fits the concept better. I could see skinny Ike being an alternate though.

 

[osby]

For people who wants newcomers: Does anyone wants them to interact with the veterans in a spesific way? Like how Marth and Link challenged with Shulk.

 

[LancerStaff]

Why? Doctor Mario is a spins off character. He got in. Twice.
BTW, Zelda uses a sword in some titles. Twilight Princess is one of them. That is not HW exclusive. Some inspiration can definitely be drawn from there. Just like some Megaman move are inpired in Marvel vs Capcon.

As a simple clone and not core inspiration, yes.

Zelda never actually uses the sword, though.

One move based on a spin-off is completely different from basing most of all of the character on it.

 

[Gumzilla]

So I learned how broken Peach is in Smash Flash 2. You can just trap someone in a corner or near the walk off and repeatedly throw and catch the same turnip over and over.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Ok just a random thing I noticed about the console wars. Mattel attempted to join the war at least TWICE! The Intellevision was meh from what I've heard but then there was.... the Hyperscan.

Trying TTL before the tech was ready.

 

[Ura]

For people who wants newcomers: Does anyone wants them to interact with the veterans in a spesific way? Like how Marth and Link challenged with Shulk.

I want Andy to interact with Marth. Like maybe a confrontation between the two who hail from TBS games made by Intelligent Systems.

Both being the faces of their franchises (first main characters) is another reason why it would be cool.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

It's not newcomers and veterans.

But if by some chance Pauline does make it in to represent Odyssey? Pair her with Isabelle in her trailer. Famous Nintendo Mayor and famous Nintendo assistant. It writes itself.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Ganondorf with a moveset that makes sense, dark magic.
Samus with Ice attacks and Melee Counter.
Pikachu with Iron Tail.
Kirby with a moveset that is not incredibly generic and bad competitively.
Lucina being unique.
Dark Pit using other KI weapons.
Dr. Mario using viruses or something.
Lucario actually using a cool fighting style instead of just shooting blue smoke with his palms.

I don't see why Ganondorf's move set doesn't make sense. He uses dark magic combined with brute strength.

-Ganondorf using actual magical powers and maybe a weapon (the Gamecube Tech Demo Sword, the Sword of Six Sages, the Trident, whatever) instead of punching and kicking.
-Kirby having a moveset that is less generic (the specials are fine, just change the Smash Attacks, tilts, and aerials)
-Samus using her arm cannon much more instead of punches and kicks (think Mii Gunner for example)
-Wario using his Shoulder Bash as a special move (like in Project M or SSF2) and references to his "statuses" from the Wario Land series (like in the Mod "Smash 2" in which Wario becomes "Dizzy" for his Dash Attack)
-Roy becoming more unique by using Fire-Sword based attacks (for example, shooting fire projectiles from his Sword)
-Dr Mario becoming a full-on Deadly Doctor.

It's kind of ironic how generic and bland the use of the words "generic and bland" is. I hear them thrown around constantly without any elaboration and so they've just become totally meaningless words.

 

[Luminario]

Metroid Other M received a lot of representation and it was also developed by team ninja.
Hyrule Warriors has by far the best Zelda design too

What did Other M actually give Smash though? Pyrosphere and ZSS' horrible heels are all I can actually think of that weren't just redesigns, songs, or trophies.

Talking about revamps, I think Zelda with a sword based moveset slightely inspired in Hyrule Warriors would be great. The specials should be kept but the normals are in desperate need of revamp. She is one of my favourites and seeing her suck is sad lol.

I was thinking of a moveset for her. I think she should levitate the sword to have more range.
For example, her smash attacks:
Forward: Zelda levitates the sword forwards, turns around and attack with magic backwards. She turns aound again and returns her sword. The tip of the sword on the maximum range is a sweet spot, and the magic attack is a powerful explosion just like his current Uair.
The same mechanic applies to Up and Down smashes, but with U-smash the sword goes up and the explosions are on the ground and with D-smash the sword spins around her and the explosion is upwards.
She could also have this mechanic in the aerials but having sour-spots in the tip of the sword instead, connecting the front to the stronger back hit.
What do you guys think?

Does she need a sword though? She can swipe with her hand to create a light slash disjoint or sparkles if she needs range and she's one of the few pure mage characters in the game, I'd rather they stick with that concept. Besides, Robin's the best choice for telekinetic sword swipes. If they make the sword float for a taunt they can do it for an attack.

I still think the Goddess Spells suit Zelda the most. If she also gets the Power of Sealing as a special then Zelda channels all 4 goddesses in her moveset. Giving her the champion abilities poses problems too. Mipha's Grace isn't exactly suited to a balanced special and giving her Revali's Gale means she loses her long range teleport for something that's likely just for recovery and not nearly as safe.

 

[Sonic Poke]

-Dr Mario becoming a full-on Deadly Doctor.

I want a giant syringe for his final smash lol.

For people who wants newcomers: Does anyone wants them to interact with the veterans in a spesific way? Like how Marth and Link challenged with Shulk.

If Pauline gets in, I want her and Peach to tease each other in their victory lines. As if they are fighting for Mario.
If Pokemon Trainer returns, we need a trailer of him recapturing Charizard.
If King K. Rool gets in, we need a "Three Troubled Kings" event match.

 

[Pazzo.]

Woah, Kirby needs a simple moveset. He's designed as the most simple video game character by Sakurai.

Straightforward, easy to understand. Sort of like Kirby himself.

 

[NintendoKnight]

Buff Ike MUST stay.

I don't like character regression, and having Ike revert back would be a disservice to the character.

One does not just get unbuff... How would Buff Ike look in his PoR outfit though? I'd like to see that.

On the topic of Dr. Mario, I'd like to see some defib paddles appear in his hands when he uses forward smash.

"CLEAR!"
*BLAM*

 

[Chandeelure]

I don't see why Ganondorf's move set doesn't make sense. He uses dark magic combined with brute strength.

Oh man, I'm so sorry, I totally forgot that Ganondorf has purple smoke in his punches and kicks.

 

[MrReyes96]

For people who wants newcomers: Does anyone wants them to interact with the veterans in a spesific way? Like how Marth and Link challenged with Shulk.

I want Mr. Game and Watch using his Judge attack on Phoenix Wright
I want Wonder Red fighting with Olimar (both leaders who attack with 100 allies) or captain falcon (hero types)
I want Viridi also interacting with Pikmin or Pokémon, being the goddess of nature
I want Takamaru fighting Link , And maybe Pit and Samus join in

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Oh man, I'm so sorry, I totally forgot that Ganondorf has purple smoke in his punches and kicks.

And electricity and explosions. Why is everyone so sour and cynical?

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I don't see why Ganondorf's move set doesn't make sense. He uses dark magic combined with brute strength.



It's kind of ironic how generic and bland the use of the words "generic and bland" is. I hear them thrown around constantly without any elaboration and so they've just become totally meaningless words.

What doesn't make sense to me is how god damn flexible he is. He shouldn't be able to lift his leg up to his head like a cheerleader.

 

[Chandeelure]

And electricity and explosions.

I already said I was sorry, man.

You just look at this and scream Ganondorf, the explosion symbolizes his power

One does not just get unbuff...

You just have to stop doing exercise.

 

[SamuXCI]

For people who wants newcomers: Does anyone wants them to interact with the veterans in a spesific way? Like how Marth and Link challenged with Shulk.

Donkey Kong and Samus working together fighting Ridley and King K. Rool. Be funny Samus going into Morph Ball then Dk picking her up and pegging K. Rool in the head. Then just have Dk and Ridley Kaiju it out while Samus has a projectile battle with the King.

 

[MrReyes96]

I don’t know about you guys but I would rather have

 

[PeridotGX]

What revamps do you wanna see. Do you wanna see Ganondorf get Ancient armor? Or possibly see Olimar get Rock & Winged Pikmin like in "Hey! Pikmin"?

I actually made an alternate moveset for Kirby, Keeping only 3 moves the same.

Spoiler: Kirby New Moveset

Jab Combo: Same

Up-Tilt: Leaf Uppercut. Taken from the Leaf copy ability from Kirby’s Return to Dream Land, Kirby does a quick uppercut using a pile of leaves, visually similar to Bayo’s Smashes. It’s very quick, but quite low in knockback.

Side Tilt: Broom Clean. Kirby uses a broom from the long forgotten Clean copy ability from KDL3. He swipes in front of him. It has low damage but has a windbox

Down Tilt: Balloon Burst. Kirby brings Triple Deluxe’s Circus to town! He makes a balloon and inflates it until it pops. Like in TD, it can change shape, though it has no impact on damage.

Dash Attack: Burning Dash. From more games than I can count, Fire’s dash attack/ Burning’s attack returns from Melee! It functions just as it does in the games, sending Kirby quite a bit further forward and dealing some Fire damage to whoever it hits.


Neutral Air: Twinkle Star. Same

Front/Back Air: Freezer Sparkle. From Ice Kirby’s midair attack in most Kirby Games, Kirby spews snow around him and spins rapidly. At higher percents it can freeze.

Up Air: Needle Stab. Coming from the rather forgettable Needle copy ability, Kirby stabs at the air above him.

Down Air: Stone. Near 1-to-1 his old Down-B from midair.

Up Smash: Geyser. Taken From Water from RTDL, it has a long hitbox right above Kirby.

Side Smash: Hammer. Similar to his old Side-Special, it does a lot of damage but has large lag.

Down Smash: Mirror Split: Mirror Kirby from Super Star and Robobot’s signature attack. Kirby has two Mirror images appear on both sides to deal damage. There’s decent range as well as invincibility frames while attacking


Neutral-B: Inhale. Changing this would be insane

Side B: Poison Ride. Using the Poison ability from Robobot, Kirby rides around on a Toxic pile of sludge like in Sonic’s Spin Dash, Yoshi's Egg Ride, and similar attacks. It’s slower than those attacks, but it leaves behind puddles of poison that deal damage.

Up B: Missile. Using the aforementioned Missile ability from Amazing Mirror, Kirby turns into a Missile in what can only be described as a supercharged variant of Villager’s Up B. Missile Kirby can dart around the stage quite easily, but he’s very difficult to control and he has no brakes.

Down B: Unstable Formula. Using the Doctor Copy ability from Robobot, Kirby starts to make a potion, randomly selected from four. It takes a few seconds to charge, but after that he can use it whenever. The fire one does the most damage, but has the smallest hitbox. The ice one has a larger hitbox and can Freeze, but deals less damage. The Electric one has 4 projectiles fall out of the bottle. Each projectile goes far, but does less damage. An opponent can get hit by multiple projectiles, if they touch all 4 it’s almost as much damage as the fire attack. The healing potion appears very infrequently, but heals 30%.

Final Smash: Hypernova. Using the Hypernova ability that debuted in Triple Deluxe, Kirby turns a rainbow color and starts inhaling rapidly, attempting to consume anything "close" to him (Close is about half of Palutena's Temple). If Kirby inhales someone, they take a lot of damage. Afterwards, Kirby spits out a giant star, which gets bigger depending on how many things he inhaled.

Please provide critisicm and ways it can be improved.