Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Luigi The President]

Well this is ****ing absurd.

You guys take one part, ONE part of an entire, long post Tots made and make it into ANOTHER debate over "NOOOOO X IS MORE DESERVING THAN Y!!!" which compromises a majority of the previous page.

 

[Deleted member]

You know what, I'm tired of comments like this.

Stop defending this garbage.
Stop blaming the fans for the flaws of the game and the stupid philosophy of the game balance.
Stop pretending like awful patch notes are fine in a world where every other game company has already had them down pat.
Stop treating Nintendo and Sakurai like they're some helpless babes being picked on by a big mean bully.
Stop saying that the overwhelming vocal outcry for positive change directly somehow caused a negative outcome.
Stop acting like criticism is an attack on both Sakurai, his game, and his company.
Stop giving a free pass to this type of garbage that would be laughed and ridiculed by any other company.
Stop pretending that the way Nintendo and Sakurai have handled online, online that we currently have to pay for, is in any way acceptable.
Stop treating like liking or disliking a character is the direct cause of someone wanting to be cool.
Stop using false equivalency to compare all the fans to the worst in the community.
Stop generalizing everyone into this stereotype wherein a very specific subset of people are exempt.
Stop saying that people's personal opinion on what is and isn't deserving is somehow sad.
Stop this passive-aggressive complaining shaming this nebulous "smash community" that doesn't contribute to anything but to shame people's opinions.
Stop saying that there's some sort of time-limit on when people should be able to criticize the flaws in a game.

Stop.
Just stop.

You knowingly pressed the "Post Reply" button to this and completely forgoing the message I was trying to convey, but ok.

 

[PsySmasher]

I'm just gonna say this to those of us complaining about the Online:

Knowing how it was going to work, and how Nintendo's online has worked in the past...

Did you still buy it?

To be fair, some people bought the online before Smash released, not knowing the mess they just paid for.

Maybe they were buying into false hope?

(This is coming from someone who doesn't own a Switch btw)

 

[Kingslime304]

Really, the only echo fighter I would like to be in Smash is Ryuji, and it's only because of having the change of showing his friends that he's not "Pathetic".
Like **** off Morgana.

 

[Deleted member]

I think [insert name] is more deserving then [insert 2nd name] because [reasons].

Given you can fill those spaces with most anything and you have kind of the issue with the entire thing.

I think My Dad is more deserving than Your Dad because My Dad can beat up Your Dad.

I don't care if he deserves it or not. I really want Banjo and Kazooie and would flip my lid if they made it in.

I've said it before so I'll just say it again.

I am a grown man. If Banjo gets into Smash I would probably cry
like a *****

I'm just gonna say this to those of us complaining about the Online:

Knowing how it was going to work, and how Nintendo's online has worked in the past...

Did you still buy it?

Yes, because $20 dollars is an average trip to McDonald's for 2 people and I think that's worth it to play with friends online.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

I'm just gonna say this to those of us complaining about the Online:

Knowing how it was going to work, and how Nintendo's online has worked in the past...

Did you still buy it?

And if you bought it and still decide to complain

 

[Noipoi]

Guys, guys.

I deserve to be in Smash.

Spoiler

NOIPOI
HAS NO IDEA WHAT HE'S DOING WITH HIS LIFE!

 

[Deleted member]

And if you bought it and still decide to complain
View attachment 182902

And yet over half of the install base for the Switch still bought it. Y'know, there's a simple thing called: not buying the ****ing product.

It's simple.

If James Rolfe said no to Ghostbusters, you can say no to Nintendo Switch Online. That simple.

 

[Deleted member]

To be fair, some people bought the online before Smash released, not knowing the mess they just paid for.

(This is coming from someone who doesn't own a Switch btw)

That's definitely understandable. Wanting the service to improve is natural and a good thing. I guess I get a tad bit frustrated with the venom people hurl at it, though. It's not as dramatically bad as a lot say, and this patch proves they're listening and trying to improve.

 

[ClaTheBae]

And if you bought it and still decide to complain
View attachment 182902

To be fair, if you buy something and it's bad, you have every right to criticize it.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

And yet over half of the install base for the Switch still bought it. Y'know, there's a simple thing called: not buying the ****ing product.

It's simple.

If James Rolfe said no to Ghostbusters, you can say no to Nintendo Switch Online. That simple.

Ooh ****, Yeah I forgot he told everyone he wasnt gonna see and review the Ghostbusters. We can learn a lot from him

To be fair, if you buy something and it's bad, you have every right to criticize it.

From everything they told us, some people didnt like it right away but stiiill bought it so what can we say about them?

 

[Deleted member]

To be fair, if you buy something and it's bad, you have every right to criticize it.

On the same token, though, you know full well what you're buying.

 

[DraginHikari]

Kind of reminded why I have a tendency to drift away from these forums after release. Things always get weird after release.

 

[Lollipopped]

Y'know, it's always the "deserving" argument. I definitely remember hearing it a lot back in the Smash 4 speculation days. And specifically for characters that people really wanted in. The "____ deserves to be in" is just another way to justify a specific character's inclusion, especially when they have competition. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Pyra]

having a history of bad online is not an excuse to continue to have bad online and be suddenly immune from criticism of it though

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Thanks for dodging my well-worded essay of an explanation on why you're probably not and instead responding with two sentences completely unrelated to the matter at hand. Sure showed me!

today's society in a nutshell: have an opinion but be too afraid to defend it

Except your essay really wasn't that well worded and came off more as a rant than anything else. If you so desperately want the attention, here it is:

The Justia website is specifically the retrieval of legal trademark information in America. An American trademark doesn't mean much to a Japanese company who develops and publishes their own game in their home country of Japan, all it means is that Bandai Namco is in charge of managing the IP in America. This situation is most likely the way it is to make localization and marketing easier for FromSoftware, who probably doesn't have much interest in internally localizing and marketing the game for Western audiences (1).

I have an uncle who's a lawyer and he compares the situation to a YouTuber working with a network. The YouTuber forfeits all of his content to a network, who receives the money in exchange for what is essentially royalties, typically leaving a cut of 20-30% to the network in exchange for all the responsibilities they don't want to have to deal with. Just like a YouTuber can let their contract run out and drop their network in exchange for a new one, FromSoftware could easily do the same to Bandai Namco if they wanted to. They obviously don't and consider Bandai Namco a good publisher for their work, which is why you see the American copyright constantly being renewed (2).

As I said before, this is a situation that wouldn't affect both a Bandai Namco-published overseas, FromSoftware-owned and published in Japan IP in Solaire and a bona fide, 100% Bandai Namco owned IP in Lloyd both getting in, as it wouldn't be Bandai Namco getting two reps. ESPECIALLY since this is a game being developed fully in Japan, and all Bandai Namco would need to do is okay the character for release in the game outside of Japan, something they would absolutely do considering FromSoftware can drop them as their overseas publisher/IP handler any time they want (3).

Also, in no way does Lloyd have more of a chance than Solaire. Just because Joker made it in doesn't mean every 2.5D anime-esque JRPG protagonist has a high chance (4.1). Joker is likely going to be a one-of-a-kind addition, with other wildcards similar to Master Chief, Lara Croft, Dante, 2B, Geralt of Rivia, Dovahkiin, Pip Boy, etc taking the other spots. Solaire fits into that bunch a lot better than Lloyd does (4.2), especially considering he's not even close to being the most popular, recognized, or even beloved Tales character; Yuri Lowell and Millia Maxwell have Lloyd beaten by a million miles in that regard. And even looking outside of popularity and recognition/lovability, in what way would Lloyd even come close to being a great pick for a Tales Smash rep? Velvet Crowe has all 3 of Yuri, Millia, AND Lloyd beaten in how well she'd fit into Smash; she has a demon-possessed arm and a general Smash-feeling design, tons of in-game moves that fit Smash really well, and a revenge-fueled backstory that could be used exceptionally well for vocal taunts. And a Scarlet Night themed Final Smash? A match made in heaven!(4.3)

Three Tales reps that completely obliterate Lloyd, and I don't think any of them have any chance of making it in over Solaire. Why are you so convinced Lloyd will make it in?

1. Again, since Namco Bandai owns the IP in America, they would have to be involved in negotiations for Solaire in Smash since it is a WORLDWIDE game, and not just Japanese. Therefore, Solaire is a Namco Representative.
2. Unless your uncle is a Japanese copyright lawyer he has no authority in this situation. Your attempt to appeal to Ethos is weak and feels more like "My uncle works at Nintendo and..."than anything else.
3. Like I said, Namco Bandai would be involved in negotiations for Solaire, and unless you work for Namco Bandai, From Software, or Nintendo you have no idea how those negotiations would go. It could be as easy as you could say, but it's likely a lot more complex and you're oversimplifying it to make a strawman argument.
4. This is easily your worst paragraph as it's nothing more than opinion passed off as fact.
   1. Again, you make a strawman argument against Lloyd by oversimplifying the points for him as "2.5D anime-JRPG protagonist"
   2. The idea of getting all wildcards is kind of supported by Sakurai and Reggie's statements, but you don't cite them, and it's up to interpretation. More than likely Joker was a way of starting strong out of the gate, and we'll get characters of varying popularity and surprise instead of "all wildcards" like you assume
   3. Your rant about other Tales of characters being chosen over Lloyd directly contradicts this Sakurai interview wherein he says this:

Lloyd:

—The Tales series has 20 years of history, how did you decide on Lloyd for the costume?

Sakurai: I’m not sure if there was any other appropriate choice?

—For example, how about the protagonist of the first game, Cress? [TN: From Tales of Phantasia]

Sakurai: I really think it has to be Lloyd here (laughs). I could have gone down the route of choosing from the first entry in the series, but for old games it’s somewhat common for the editorial supervision from the original creator to make the process difficult.

This was in 2016 by the way. Tales of Symphonia did amazing things for the series as it was THE title that broke the Tales of series into the West. Tales of Beseria likely wouldn't exist without Symphonia, or would be DRASTICALLY different, given that after it the Tales of team began taking feedback from fans and conducting research about how to appeal to Western fans. The impact of Tales of Symphonia is what makes Lloyd such a strong competitor.

Your entire argument is undermined by the blatant bias shown within it, and is hardly "well worded." Don't accuse me of not supporting my points when your's were never well supported to begin with.

 

[perfectchaos83]

The concept of "Deserving" drives me nuts. Characters don't get into smash because they deserve it and the criteria for "deserve" is dependent on the person. Really, The only characters who even universally can be agreed upon it are Mario, DK, Link, Pikachu, Sonic and Pac-Man and, outside of characters already in, a Dragon Quest Character. These Characters and franchises have ultimately defined the Japanese gaming industry and there's no real arguing of that.

Toad is an interesting character when it comes to Smash requests. He's not particularly wanted (not saying Toad support doesn't exist, btw). People just feel he's missing. In all honesty, it seems more that people see he should be in because it's weird that he isn't. I don't particularly think that is good for any sort of selection process, but that's just my opinion.

 

[ClaTheBae]

On the same token, though, you know full well what you're buying.

I mean, yes, but a product is not protected from criticism just because you know it's gonna be bad.

Nintendo aren't babies. They are a huge company. They should know how to make online work. We have been criticizing this stuff since the Wii. It needs to change, and criticizing it is completely necessary.

 

[Chrono.]

Gotta be real, I haven't played a fighting game whose online wasn't a heaping trash fire on the release date month yet. Hell, Street Fighter V's just barely recovered recently and that game's been out for almost 3 years.

Surely didn't expect Ultimate to the be first one either.

Doesn't mean it's exempt from criticism though, I'm just saying.

 

[SuperSceptile15]

From everything they told us, some people didnt like it right away but stiiill bought it so what can we say about them?

To be fair, the Switch online service began a year and a half after the console's release, so many of us thought Nintendo would use that time to make the online as good as possible. Of course, as it turns out, we were foolish to expect Nintendo to get online right. They will always be behind the times in that aspect.

 

[Luigi The President]

Except your essay really wasn't that well worded and came off more as a rant than anything else. If you so desperately want the attention, here it is:

1. Again, since Namco Bandai owns the IP in America, they would have to be involved in negotiations for Solaire in Smash since it is a WORLDWIDE game, and not just Japanese. Therefore, Solaire is a Namco Representative.
2. Unless your uncle is a Japanese copyright lawyer he has no authority in this situation. Your attempt to appeal to Ethos comes off as weak and feels more like "My uncle works at Nintendo and..." more than anything else.
3. Like I said, Namco Bandai would be involved in negotiations for Solaire, and unless you work for Namco Bandai, From Software, or Nintendo you have no idea how those negotiations would go. It could be as easy as you could say, but it's likely a lot more complex and you're oversimplifying it to make a strawman argument.
4. This is easily your worst paragraph as it's nothing more than opinion passed off as fact.
   1. Again, you make a strawman argument against Lloyd by oversimplifying the points for him as "2.5D anime-JRPG protagonist"
   2. The idea of getting all wildcards is kind of supported by Sakurai and Reggie's statements, but you don't cite them, and it's up to interpretation. More than likely Joker was a way of starting strong out of the gate, and we'll get characters of varying popularity and surprise instead of "all wildcards" like you assume
   3. Your rant about other Tales of characters being chosen over Lloyd directly contradicts this Sakurai interview wherein he says this:

This was in 2016 btw. Tales of Symphonia did amazing things for the series as it was THE title that broke the Tales of series into the West. Tales of Beseria likely wouldn't exist without Symphonia, given that after it the Tales of team began taking feedback from fans and conducting research about how to appeal to Western fans.

Your entire argument is undermined by the blatant bias shown within it, and is hardly "well worded." Don't accuse me of not supporting my points when your's were never well supported to begin with.

THAT MAN HAD A FAMILY TPC

 

[Deleted member]

having a history of bad online is not an excuse to continue to have bad online and be suddenly immune from criticism of it though

Criticism is good when there are flaws, which there obviously is. It just has a habit of getting very toxic when people confuse criticism for hurling insults and yelling.

I'm personally not throwing this game's online under the bus yet because of how early we are. Nintendo struggles with online, but they've shown small signs of change and improvement. They best thing people can do is vote with your wallet: If you pay for the online in its current states, then they will never learn. If you truly feel it isn't worth it, then don't buy it. I personally bought it because I like Nintendo's games enough to put up with the service, and also with the hope SNES games come to their new VC.

 

[Deleted member]

Ooh ****, Yeah I forgot he told everyone he wasnt gonna see and review the Ghostbusters. We can learn a lot from him

There's a lot of things I wish people can learn from.

James Rolfe never saw the new Ghostbusters, yet got called a woman-hating alt-righter.
Laci Green became more level-headed and open to open-minded dialogue, yet most feminists hate that simple fact.

You can criticize Nintendo, I'm not, AND HAVE NEVER SAID, that you can't. I literally did that on the sides the entire Wii U era, because **** me, I REALLY hated the Wii U and look what happened, I got all the stuff I wanted with the Switch with only a few inklings of problems here and there. I don't get how we cannot just have an open discussion and still come to agreements.

See for example, me and DaybreakHorizon had an open discussion about both Xenoblade games and which one does stuff better. I was for Xenoblade 2, he was for Xenoblade 1. We both have varying characters of who we wanna see in Smash, but yet we can still have an open and concise discussion and be good pallies.

How one simple post I made about the current state of Smash Ultimate spiraled the thread into nonesense is really mind-blowing.

 

[Pyra]

Criticism is good when there are flaws, which there obviously is. It just has a habit of getting very toxic when people confuse criticism for hurling insults and yelling.

Then the problem isn't people complaining about the service being bad as is well within their rights, the problem is the loud group of people who spit vitriol at everything because they don't know how to do anything otherwise.

To imply that buying online suddenly keeps you from saying "wow it's bad" makes no sense. Saying "wow nintendo's ****ing stupid what ****ing idiots" is bad, but that's bad in literally any context.

 

[Pyr]

Sometimes, when the thread gets like this, I get so, so tempted to post an old school "Spiderman Thread" pic because I genuinely think it'd lead to a deeper, more worthwhile conversation.

 

[Noipoi]

with only a few inklings of problems here and there.

The squid children are beautiful, shut your face hole./s

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Oh, what's that? We're talking about how fictional characters deserve to be in Smash as if they're responsible for their own success and it's not the developers that created them that should get the credit?

Listen, the only reason people say that a character "deserves to be in Smash" is because they want the character. Literally just say "I want this character in Smash, and would prefer them over many other choices".

To say a fictional character "deserves" something is outrageous and means nothing. What makes a character deserve it? I don't even know what that means, and I was somebody who used to, long ago, say something similar.

Before it gets any worse, just move on folks. It's not worth going over this more and more. I just don't understand exactly why we can't just, you know, accept that people like different things or try to look for positives in the preferences of other people. I used to be a Nintendo fan only, whereas now because of you know, trying new things that people recommended to me, I'm a fan of much more.

If you're going to resort to characters "deserving" things, you're better off just saying you like them and want them in. Fictional characters deserve nothing, plain and simple.

Have you guys been playing? Do more of that! I've been consistently getting 9.5 in Classic with many different characters and slapped the **** out of some dudes online earlier. Man is this game fun!

 

[Deleted member]

The squid children are beautiful, shut your face hole./s

I will the moment Sakurai and the dev team add Kanye's 350s. Shoutouts to Kanye's current Twitter flurry btw.

 

[PsySmasher]

So um...

Does anyone actually predict Nintendo DLC characters?

Because all I see nowadays is lists filled w/ 3rd party characters.

 

[lightdrago]

My eyes are tired from playing Adventure Mode. It’s simultaneously frustrating and addicting.

Also screw the Celebi and Dry Bowser battle

 

[Deleted member]

Then the problem isn't people complaining about the service being bad as is well within their rights, the problem is the loud group of people who spit vitriol at everything because they don't know how to do anything otherwise.

To imply that buying online suddenly can't say "wow it's bad" makes no sense. Saying "wow nintendo's ****ing stupid what ****ing idiots" is bad, but that's bad in literally any context.

Oh no, I fully agree. I probably wasn't getting my point across very well; apologies for that.

Criticism is necessary for these things. Even when things are seemingly smooth, there are always areas to improve upon. No such thing as perfection for most things, right? My point was mainly for those who purchased it fully knowing what it was currently like with their other games and what they had detailed about it and still complained. If you thought it wasn't worth it, why buy it? Buying it shows that there was at least some part of you that thought it was worth it in its current state.

 

[Noipoi]

So um...

Does anyone actually predict Nintendo DLC characters?

Because all I see nowadays is lists filled w/ 3rd party characters.

I'd still be betting on my boy Bandanna Dee if he wasn't a Spirit.

Other than that? I dunno. A gen 8 Pokemon? Dixie? Who else is left?

 

[perfectchaos83]

So um...

Does anyone actually predict Nintendo DLC characters?

Because all I see nowadays is lists filled w/ 3rd party characters.

I absolutely do not see any Nintendo Characters being DLC.

 

[RandomAce]

"The fighters that had specific adjustments are listed below.

Adjusted Fighters

Greninja

ROFL!

GRENINJA BETTER NOT GET NERFED SAKURAI!

 

[lightdrago]

I'd still be betting on my boy Bandanna Dee if he wasn't a Spirit.

Other than that? I dunno. A gen 8 Pokemon? Dixie? Who else is left?

Can I introduce you to our lord and savior, Prince Sidon?

 

[Chrono.]

So um...

Does anyone actually predict Nintendo DLC characters?

Because all I see nowadays is lists filled w/ 3rd party characters.

I was on the All 3rd Parties team since the pass got announced.

Surely would not be surprised if that were the case.

 

[Noipoi]

Can I introduce you to our lord and savior, Prince Sidon?

Alright, this is a character who deserves to be in Smash.

 

[Pyra]

Can I introduce you to our lord and savior, Prince Sidon?

anyone else tho


*sits back and grabs popcorn*

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Oh. There's an update.

Oh my girl got touched.

I see.

Anyone know what was done to Isabelle?

 

[Zinith]

So um...

Does anyone actually predict Nintendo DLC characters?

Because all I see nowadays is lists filled w/ 3rd party characters.

I still hold out hope that ONE of them will be Poochy