Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[DraginHikari]

One character that should be on everyone's rosters as a likely character is Excitebike or "Excite Rider"

• 9th best selling Famicom game
• Variety of installments (Excitebike 64, Excite Truck, Excite Bots, Excitebike: World Rally)
• A variety of vehicles and robots at his disposal (Excite Bots)
• The unique appeal of a character who rides a motorcycle and is all about vehicles in general (not just one like Bowser Jr). The overheating system could also bring something unique.

Personally I'd kind of need to see a moveset for them frankly. I have a bit of issue visualizing that kind of character frankly lol.

I don’t get why people are saying XC2 is too new for Smash. It was in development since 2014, ad the story and characters were definitely finished by mid to late 2016, since there were multiple cutscenes that were in the trailer by January 2017. Most of 2017 was probably spent putting the finishing touches on stuff and adding in side things like quests.

Sakurai just needed to know the character existed and have a general idea about him by the time of him making the roster in mid to late 2016, at least 2/3 through XC2’s dev cycle. Sakurai could still make adjustments with any new information during 2017.

It's mostly stems from how Sakurai has development previous smash games. Which has usually involves plans before development that he only occasionally drifts some. Not to say it's an impossibility given that Sakurai has praised XB2 directly. Regardless I can understand the claim that he might be 'too new' based on past behavior on the part of Sakurai.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I mean I'd be for him, but he's just one of those people who a lot of people don't know how his gameplay would work so people don't think of him.

And I say that as someone who played the **** out of every Excite installment Nintendo throws at me.

Accelerating, Deploying RC Bikes, using abilities of Excitebots, performing flips, and leaving oil traps are a few examples.

Attacking with his wheels and exhaust pipe in place of where characters would punch or kick is another unique feature. The only thing that I could see as difficult is grabbing and climbing ladders. But, there's no reason he can't have some way of doing either of those things.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I don’t get why people are saying XC2 is too new for Smash. It was in development since 2014, ad the story and characters were definitely finished by mid to late 2016, since there were multiple cutscenes that were in the trailer by January 2017. Most of 2017 was probably spent putting the finishing touches on stuff and adding in side things like quests.

Sakurai just needed to know the character existed and have a general idea about him by the time of him making the roster in mid to late 2016, at least 2/3 through XC2’s dev cycle. Sakurai could still make adjustments with any new information during 2017.

I mean he could but I feel like, especially for a game like Xenoblade, he'd want to the play the game and get a proper sense of what the characters are and how they could work before implementing them. It's why I feel they can do that for pokemon, but not for characters from a massive rpg y'know. And Sakurai's past behaviour shows that he sticks to that project plan he makes at the start of development, there's more likely to be an X character rather than placeholder character from unfinished game in that plan. Plus DLC exists anyway, he can still add characters that were 'too new'

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

It's mostly stems from how Sakurai has development previous smash games. Which has usually involves plans before development that he only occasionally drifts some. Not to say it's an impossibility given that Sakurai has praised XB2 directly. Regardless I can understand the claim that he might be 'too new' based on past behavior on the part of Sakurai.

I think they were trying to say that Xenoblade 2 would be well into development when Sakurai did those project plan (mid to late 2016). Since it's a series he enjoys I defintely see him wanting to put in the newest character. Arms is a bit more of a stretch (lol) due to it being a new IP, but Nintendo defintely pushed it so they wanted it to be big.

 

[DraginHikari]

I just realized how much I want a FF6 character.
Any of them would be great but my top choices are Celes and Edgar.

I would image Terra would be the most likely possibility since she's the 'Face' of the game even though FFVI plot makes designating a main character a bit harder then compared to say Cloud in FFVII

 

[Starcutter]

It's certainly possible that sakurai talked to someone from monolith soft and they were like "oh yeah, we have this great game thats going to be out in 2017, check this out"

If they mentioned something like that, I could see Rex being playable.

I think Rex makes sense for DLC if he's not playable in the base game

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Personally I'd kind of need to see a moveset for them frankly. I have a bit of issue visualizing that kind of character frankly lol.

• Neutral Special: Accelerate - Excitebike pops a wheelie.This could trap and push people like a tide wave or possibly bury them in a custom move. Though you lose control of Excitebike. This move is reminiscent of the wheelie boost in Mario Kart Wii.
• Side Special: Ramp Flip - Ramp emerges from the floor (like in GBA Mario Circuit in Mario Kart 8) and he flips off of it.
• Down Special: Oil Trap - Shoots oil out of his exhaust pipe as a trap.
• Up Special: Exhaust Rocket - There's also the possibility of using a glider like in Mario Kart or one of the Excitebots from Excitebots: Trick Racing.

Overheating his bike to make it stronger and faster is his unique play style. Deploying RC Bikes is another idea. Wheelie as a dash attack and exhaust pipe release as a back aerial too.

I'm sorry for double posting. I didn't mean to hit the post button. My mouse freaks the hell out sometimes.

I mean he could but I feel like, especially for a game like Xenoblade, he'd want to the play the game and get a proper sense of what the characters are and how they could work before implementing them. It's why I feel they can do that for pokemon, but not for characters from a massive rpg y'know. And Sakurai's past behaviour shows that he sticks to that project plan he makes at the start of development, there's more likely to be an X character rather than placeholder character from unfinished game in that plan. Plus DLC exists anyway, he can still add characters that were 'too new'

Xenoblade 2 was being developed as early as 2014 in response to the negative reaction to Xenoblade X.

 

[DraginHikari]

I think they were trying to say that Xenoblade 2 would be well into development when Sakurai did those project plan (mid to late 2016). Since it's a series he enjoys I defintely see him wanting to put in the newest character. Arms is a bit more of a stretch (lol) due to it being a new IP, but Nintendo defintely pushed it so they wanted it to be big.

I understand that, but outside of Greninja and Roy in Melee most new characters are characters are generally released before Sakurai's 'game plan' is put into place. That's no guarantee of anything of course but since we still in no information mode, what we know from the past is about all we can gauge much on.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I'm sorry for double posting. I didn't mean to hit the post button. My mouse freaks the hell out sometimes.


Xenoblade 2 was being developed as early as 2014 in response to the negative reaction to Xenoblade X.

But it wasn't out, and that was my point. Sakurai probably would want to play it before adding a character from it.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

So since we haven't heard of any action against that ''leak" and it's now well into the morning of Tuesday in Japan.

That **** fake as ****, yo.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I understand that, but outside of Greninja and Roy in Melee most new characters are characters are generally released before Sakurai's 'game plan' is put into place. That's no guarantee of anything of course but since we still in no information mode, what we know from the past is about all we can gauge much on.

If anything I think he'd try to add them in late. Too many people who don't know better will be expecting Rex & Pyra and rightfully so. Greninja was a year earlier than Smash 4's release and Xenoblade 2 began development by at least 2015.

 

[Crap-Zapper]

So, over the 50 + pages I've missed since Friday. What's been on the radar/discussion point?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

So since we haven't heard of any action against that ''leak" and it's now well into the morning of Tuesday in Japan.

That **** fake as ****, yo.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

But it wasn't out, and that was my point. Sakurai probably would want to play it before adding a character from it.

I don't see why he can't go off of concept art or early demos. Not every game has to be referenced entirely beyond the character. Sometimes characters don't get a lot of content beyond a character and maybe a stage. Like Fire Emblem and Final Fantasy.

Greninja was off of concept art and his game wasn't out yet.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I don't see why he can't go off of concept art or early demos. Not every game has to be referenced entirely beyond the character. Sometimes characters don't get a lot of content beyond a character and maybe a stage. Like Fire Emblem and Final Fantasy.

Greninja was off of concept art and his game wasn't out yet.

But greninja is a pokemon and pokemon are all relatively simple, they have a couple attack animations and that's about it. There's just a lot less to work with.

 

[T-Hell]

So, over the 50 + pages I've missed since Friday. What's been on the radar/discussion point?

The same old debates for the 58th time and a new leak that was very decently elaborated, although obviously fake.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

But greninja is a pokemon and pokemon are all relatively simple

Not really.

, they have a couple attack animations and that's about it. There's just a lot less to work with.

You could say the same thing about Shulk and Rex. I'm really not understanding your point. You're not really supporting it with examples of what you're saying.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Not really.


You could say the same thing about Shulk and Rex. I'm really not understanding your point. You're not really supporting it with examples of what you're saying.

I'm not sure how to describe it really but Rex's personality and Rex and Pyra's relationship and how the battle system works and how they fight together and all that. I imagine Sakurai would probably wanna play it first hand in order to properly represent the characters first. Like implementing a pokemon before the game comes out and implementing a character from a massive rpg is different to me.

 

[Arcanir]

If anything I think he'd try to add them in late. Too many people who don't know better will be expecting Rex & Pyra and rightfully so. Greninja was a year earlier than Smash 4's release and Xenoblade 2 began development by at least 2015.

There are many characters that people expect that weren't made playable across the years though. For every Little Mac and Diddy, there's always a Dixie, Ridley, Miis/Villager in Brawl, and Inklings/Wolf in DLC. Some expected characters just don't make the cut, and that's because our expectations are not always going to be in line with Sakurai's mindset on the matter.

And while it's true that he could pull a Greninja, he can also just as easily ignore it or not be aware of it. For the former we know Olimar was rejected in Melee for being too new, and the latter Sakurai was not made aware of Ike's RD design or Marth's SD design despite both being in development during the time Brawl was being developed and Sakurai having a good relationship with IS. Greninja's case is not an occurrence that's common, and while it can happen, it's not something we should rely on.

 

[Gestahl]

I just realized how much I want a FF6 character.
Any of them would be great but my top choices are Celes and Edgar.

Gestahl would be nice!

 

[BluePikmin11]

This quote from Sakurai gets me really thinking to be honest:

Sakurai: No, that’s not the case. I don’t think about new characters etc. if I don’t have to for making a new Smash Bros. game.

To what extents is relevance relevant to Sakurai when considering new characters for Smash?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

That was atleast the same character. Pokemon from two different game as well as characters from basically two different universes (atleast that's what I got from the little I played of X, that's it's completely unrelated to the Chronicles series) are not the same as two different designs for a character.

Doesn't really matter. The argument still revolves around representing an "outdated" game in a ever-changing franchise with multiple casts which Sakurai already was willing to do despite a new upcoming game already being in development.

Besides Sakurai himself has made the statement (in the same interview where a Pokemon X and Y newcomer was stated to be the big exception to trends around the time the development started being important, no less) that had FE Awakening been released 6 months earlier or later than it was, Robin would have been less likely to have been considered. Given that XC2 was always set to release in December 2017, there is no real guarantee that Sakurai would even want to give Rex the Greninja treatment.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Xenoblade is just....well, it's Xenoblade. I think everyone on the internet is overselling how much it means to Nintendo now. It's still very niche, but growing. It's only saving grace is that it remains one of the few Nintendo IPs to be doing so right now. Yet when it comes to people to add? Any of it's possibilities just don't seem as if they'd be very high priority for Sakurai with all the potential he has elsewhere.

I feel as Nintendo has been pushing it really hard though. Especially 2. It got it's own 8 minute spotlight in that one direct and it's own direct.

Plus, in terms of niche franchises, Fire emblem was still pretty niche in brawl and yet Ike was still added. Sakurai went out of his way to add the newest fire emblem character.

Is there something about Xenoblade that couldn't make it a fire emblem situation?

If anything I think he'd try to add them in late. Too many people who don't know better will be expecting Rex & Pyra and rightfully so. Greninja was a year earlier than Smash 4's release and Xenoblade 2 began development by at least 2015.

2014 actually.

 

[Senselessbreak]

2014 actually.

The trailer for Xenoblade was revealed Jan 2017, and it was of a nearly finished game, considering the game launched that same year.That means by the time Sakurai started planning the roster in summer or fall of 2016, a fully functional beta with 2+ years of dev time was available to show off to him.

And another note that people keep missing. If Sakurai works as hard as he does (Sacrifices his health and family life for Smash) then why would he play Xenoblade 2 last year (100+ hour game) in the middle of a very tight and limited development cycle that hes heading up?!?!.....unless it was for reference and inspirational purposes for his job.

 

[Deleted member]

Instead of asking what newcomers you expect, I want to try something different. Look at the list of franchises below.


Super Mario
Donkey Kong
The Legend of Zelda
Metroid
Kirby
Pokemon
Fire Emblem
Animal Crossing
Xenoblade Chronicles


With these nine franchises, try ordering them from most likely to least likely based on the odds you think they'll get a newcomer in Smash Switch (this includes DLC). As an example, here's mine:

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I think a Metroid newcomer is very unlikely. People point out Ridley, but Sakurai seems firm on his opinion that Ridley is too big for Smash Bros.

 

[Deleted member]

This quote from Sakurai gets me really thinking to be honest:

Sakurai: No, that’s not the case. I don’t think about new characters etc. if I don’t have to for making a new Smash Bros. game.

To what extents is relevance relevant to Sakurai when considering new characters for Smash?

I think that ties into the portion of the interview I shared with you in our DM, with the underlined being the key point.

Interviewer: In Smash for 3DS/ Wii U, there are far more Fire Emblem characters on the roster than in previous games. How did you go about the selection process for these characters?

Sakurai: It really depends on the situation. For example, Roy and Robin were included for completely different reasons. It also depends on luck, of course. Industry trends around the time when development begins is a pretty big factor. I started development on Smash for 3DS/ Wii U right after I’d wrapped up Kid Icarus: Uprising, and Fire Emblem Awakening was released one month after Uprising. So what’s popular around the time when I begin designing the game is important. Characters are almost never added after I’ve completed the project plan for Smash.

He doesn't really think about characters for Smash until he's in the beginning stages of the project. Anything that's relevant around that time is really what to look out for.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Doesn't really matter. The argument still revolves around representing an "outdated" game in a ever-changing franchise with multiple casts which Sakurai already was willing to do despite a new upcoming game already being in development.

Besides Sakurai himself has made the statement (in the same interview where a Pokemon X and Y newcomer was stated to be the big exception to trends around the time the development started being important, no less) that had FE Awakening been released 6 months earlier or later than it was, Robin would have been less likely to have been considered. Given that XC2 was always set to release in December 2017, there is no real guarantee that Sakurai would even want to give Rex the Greninja treatment.

I wasn't stating which was more likely when reffering to Elma there, I was referring to Elma looking weird on the roster just like a gen 5 Pokemon would have in Smash Wii U. It will have been three years since X and one since 2. Even if people think shes more likely she's going to look out of place on the roster, more weird than a character having an outdated costume which was my point.

Obviously people want her though so a lot of people would just be happy to see her. Beyond Smash fans though I don't think she has as much pull on interest. X sold barely 300,000-500,000 in it's first month compared to 2's 2 million in first month. Rex will definitely be more recognizable to Switch owners.

Man I just want more info so we can see where this roster is landing :/

 

[Tree Gelbman]

You'd say that Sonic is probably the only known case of Sakurai adding someone after his plan was set in stone, correct?

Have we got any info that says someone was similar to Sonic in that way?

 

[Morbi]

You'd say that Sonic is probably the only known case of Sakurai adding someone after his plan was set in stone, correct?

Have we got any info that says someone was similar to Sonic in that way?

Other than clones, the other potential character based on his statements was Robin; however, people argue that was not during a period in which it was set in stone which makes sense, given that we got Robin over Chrom. That being said, I am not so sure of that myself. I feel as though people construe his statements FAR to conservatively to the point where it would literally be counter-intuitive to develop under those conditions without exceptions.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

You'd say that Sonic is probably the only known case of Sakurai adding someone after his plan was set in stone, correct?

Have we got any info that says someone was similar to Sonic in that way?

I’d say Robin kinda was, but we don’t know to what extent Chrom was planned.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I wasn't stating which was more likely when reffering to Elma there, I was referring to Elma looking weird on the roster just like a gen 5 Pokemon would have in Smash Wii U. It will have been three years since X and one since 2. Even if people think shes more likely she's going to look out of place on the roster, more weird than a character having an outdated costume which was my point.

Obviously people want her though so a lot of people would just be happy to see her. Beyond Smash fans though I don't think she has as much pull on interest. X sold barely 300,000-500,000 in it's first month compared to 2's 2 million in first month. Rex will definitely be more recognizable to Switch owners.

Man I just want more info so we can see where this roster is landing :/

Eh, Rex doesn't have that much appeal even if he comes from a game that sold ~1 million copies. In terms of popularity, he ain't even close to something like the Inklings so any difference between him and Elma in terms of popularity ain't that significant. I mean he even gets hate within the Xenoblade fanbase.

 

[StormC]

I’d say Robin kinda was, but we don’t know to what extent Chrom was planned.

Robin was one of the first characters added.

 

[Arcanir]

The trailer for Xenoblade was revealed Jan 2017, and it was of a nearly finished game, considering the game launched that same year.That means by the time Sakurai started planning the roster in summer or fall of 2016, a fully functional beta with 2+ years of dev time was available to show off to him.

And another note that people keep missing. If Sakurai works as hard as he does (Sacrifices his health and family life for Smash) then why would he play Xenoblade 2 last year (100+ hour game) in the middle of a very tight and limited development cycle that hes heading up?!?!.....unless it was for reference and inspirational purposes for his job.

He's had enough time to play games like Undertale, Vostok Inc. and a number of other Indie titles if we take his Famitsu column into consideration, so he's not so strapped for time that he can't play games anymore. Additionally, he mentioned he completed XC2 over his New Years vacation, which would mean he was not working at the time he finished it and thus had more then enough time to dedicate to it if he so desired. It's not really impossible to think he dedicated the hours needed to complete it over the course of a month between work and family, especially if he had vacation time to do it.

Also, unless I'm missing something, I don't think Sakurai has ever mentioned having access to a game before its release. Maybe concept art or assets, but I don't think the developers gave him an early copy of a game for him to play before everyone else.

 

[Morbi]

Eh, Rex doesn't have that much appeal even if he comes from a game that sold ~1 million copies. In terms of popularity, he ain't even close to something like the Inklings so any difference between him and Elma in terms of popularity ain't that significant. I mean he even gets hate within the Xenoblade fanbase.

To be completely fair, that is entirely irrelevant. It has less to do with the individual characters, and more to do with the game they are from. Xenoblade 2 had way more hype and X was largely forgettable. It even comes to the point where I, a Wii U owner that was somewhat interested in X, did not know Elma. Or maybe I did and I just forgot? Who knows, but I was largely not aware of her existence or what she did. I, as someone who bought a Switch solely for Odyssey and future games, such as Smash, and skipped the Xenoblade 2 Direct, knows about Rex.

And not just for speculation. I was aware of him before this game was even announced. I hated him then, for his assless chap, parachute pants and generic anime sensibilities. It is not about Rex's appeal, it is about promoting the Xenoblade franchise in the most competent way, which would not be moving backward toward a largely mediocre game and instead looking forward to a game that had a lot of buzz because it was on the Switch. This is a Smash game made for the SWITCH audience. People keep overlooking this because they are clinging to circumstances surrounding the old game. Those "rules" are just references. Nothing more. This game is completely different and the more apt comparison would be Smash 64 transitioning to Melee. But I was not speculating back then, so I am just relying on common sense here. Rex is a very reasonable choice (even if I hate him). Elma is an outlandish choice (even if I like her).

Beyond that, if they use Pyra, all bets are off. Rex AND Pyra are probably bigger than Shulk, to be honest.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Robin was one of the first characters added.

This doesn't prove Robin was one of the first characters added. This just shows that Robin, at some point, was on a project plan.

Eh, Rex doesn't have that much appeal even if he comes from a game that sold ~1 million copies. In terms of popularity, he ain't even close to something like the Inklings so any difference between him and Elma in terms of popularity ain't that significant. I mean he even gets hate within the Xenoblade fanbase.

Does the hatebase really matter that much?

I also don't think comparing them to Inklings is even a fair comparison. Otherwise, why did Shulk even get into smash in the first place?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

To be completely fair, that is entirely irrelevant. It has less to do with the individual characters, and more to do with the game they are from. Xenoblade 2 had way more hype and X was largely forgettable. It even comes to the point where I, a Wii U owner that was somewhat interested in X, did not know Elma. Or maybe I did and I just forgot? Who knows, but I was largely not aware of her existence or what she did. I, as someone who bought a Switch solely for Odyssey and future games, such as Smash, and skipped the Xenoblade 2 Direct, knows about Rex.

And not just for speculation. I was aware of him before this game was even announced. I hated him then, for his assless chap, parachute pants and generic anime sensibilities. It is not about Rex's appeal, it is about promoting the Xenoblade franchise in the most competent way, which would not be moving backward toward a largely mediocre game and instead looking forward to a game that had a lot of buzz because it was on the Switch. This is a Smash game made for the SWITCH audience. People keep overlooking this because they are clinging to circumstances surrounding the old game. Those "rules" are just references. Nothing more. This game is completely different and the more apt comparison would be Smash 64 transitioning to Melee. But I was not speculating back then, so I am just relying on common sense here. Rex is a very reasonable choice (even if I hate him). Elma is an outlandish choice (even if I like her).

Beyond that, if they use Pyra, all bets are off. Rex AND Pyra are probably bigger than Shulk, to be honest.

But that's clearly not how sakurai operates if this has been true for every game in the series thus far, this game is going to focus on the last generation. The only real choices from the switch era are rex and springman anyway, they can't base a whole game on the switch era

 

[StormC]

This doesn't prove Robin was one of the first characters added. This just shows that Robin, at some point, was on a project plan.

Said project plan was finalized by May, two months after development started.

 

[Morbi]

This doesn't prove Robin was one of the first characters added. This just shows that Robin, at some point, was on a project plan.

Does the hatebase really matter that much?

I also don't think comparing them to Inklings is even a fair comparison. Otherwise, why did Shulk even get into smash in the first place?

I honestly feel stupid as though I am misreading that source; however, it literally states that some characters slip through the cracks, no? I am genuinely confused because on the next panel he argues that the plan does not change (which again, as far as I am concerned is a blatant lie).

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Going along with this, putting in a character from an older game concept, was there ever a character from a more recent game (released at least a year before smash) that was dropped in favor of an older character from that series?

I dont think there is but that has more to do with Nintendo series generally having rotating, reoccurring characters. The only example I could think of is Galaxy but again the main characters were still Mario, Peach and Bowser (Rosalina was added in Wii U because she continued to be reoccurring in the series).

 

[Hinata]

Personally, I feel like Sakurai's gonna forego looking at recent releases altogether, and focus more on newcomers requested through the ballot. He's got this whole long list of characters fans voted for to see in Smash Bros, and we all know how much he likes to appease the fans, so I'd imagine he's gonna put a lot of priority on that.