Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Kirbeh]

I hope Sakurai or a new developer sees the potential in crafting their own mad scientist/ sci-fi villain in the blank canvas that is Andross with a body. He can serve as a villain to Fox, but also Samus.

What? Are we doing that Star Fox/Metroid crossover rumor thing again that happened a couple years back?

Can't say I'm very fond of that idea to be honest.

EDIT: I happened to glaze over Sakurai, so I'm going to assume you just meant for Smash. Still a little weird but, that'd be okay I guess.

 

[Deleted member]

I think I would like to play as Slippy Toad.

I would too, honestly.
I used him in Assault and would play around with my nephews acting like some Russian soldier known as "The Slippy".

 

[Kirbeh]

I would too, honestly.
I used him in Assault and would play around with my nephews acting like some Russian soldier known as "The Slippy".

Now I want to hear a Russian dub of Star Fox.

I used to be against the idea of Slippy, but he's kind of grown on me over the years. Before Guard, I had the idea of him yet again being a Fox based clone/semi-clone but with clumsy moves. Like a Side B I called Slippery Toad, which served as an equivalent to Fox Illusion, but Slippy trips and slips across the floor to deal damage.

Now that Star Fox Guard is a thing though, I think a moveset revolving around turret cameras and robots would be interesting. Fits with the fact that he's a mechanic/inventor.

 

[FunAtParties]

Tbf to Krystal, a lot of people though Bowser Jr's window to make it in into Smash had closed by the time 4 was announced, and he made it. Maybe the same can happen to her?

 

[LIQUID12A]

Tbf to Krystal, a lot of people though Bowser Jr's window to make it in into Smash had closed by the time 4 was announced, and he made it. Maybe the same can happen to her?

Bowser Jr. is an infinitely more prevalent character in Mario (be it main series or spinoffs) than Krystal is in Star Fox (only three appearances), so the comparison doesn't work that well.

 

[Deleted member]

Now I want to hear a Russian dub of Star Fox.

I used to be against the idea of Slippy, but he's kind of grown on me over the years. Before Guard, I had the idea of him yet again being a Fox based clone/semi-clone but with clumsy moves. Like a Side B I called Slippery Toad, which served as an equivalent to Fox Illusion, but Slippy trips and slips across the floor to deal damage.

Now that Star Fox Guard is a thing though, I think a moveset revolving around turret cameras and robots would be interesting. Fits with the fact that he's a mechanic.

I agree.

But whether he's a joke semi-clone who has moves that don't work quite as right, a Guard-inspired tech user, or an Assault styled weapons master (which saddens me as SOMEONE should have access to those weapons), he's got multiple routes to take.

 

[FunAtParties]

Bowser Jr. is an infinitely more prevalent character in Mario (be it main series or spinoffs) than Krystal is in Star Fox (only three appearances), so the comparison doesn't work that well.

Spinoffs don't seem to get a whole lot of attention in Smash, if they did Waluigi would've made it a long time ago. So far, Bowser Jr has only made it in one mainline Mario title.

I still believe.

 

[Schnee117]

Tbf to Krystal, a lot of people though Bowser Jr's window to make it in into Smash had closed by the time 4 was announced, and he made it. Maybe the same can happen to her?

But Bowser Jr was still relevant to the Mario series with him being in the New Super Mario Bros series and Galaxy 1 & 2 among numerous other Mario titles.
Krystal hasn't had anything since Command and Zero is a different timeline/continuity so she needs to be established again.

 

[LIQUID12A]

Spinoffs don't seem to get a whole lot of attention in Smash, if they did Waluigi would've made it a long time ago. So far, Bowser Jr has only made it in one mainline Mario title.

I still believe.

So New Super Mario Bros, Galaxy, New Super Mario Bros. Wii, Galaxy 2, New Super Mario Bros. U and New Super Luigi U aren't mainline titles?

Not hating here, I'd just like an explanation as to your logic.

 

[FunAtParties]

But Bowser Jr was still relevant to the Mario series with him being in the New Super Mario Bros series and Galaxy 2 among numerous other Mario titles.
Krystal hasn't had anything since Command and Zero is a different timeline/continuity so she needs to be established again.

Eh you got me there.

LIQUID12A I mean Galaxy is for sure, but I don't consider the 'New' series mainline.

 

[Bowserlick]

Bowser Jr. has been a boss character that fights by piloting mechanoids against Mario. I am glad Sakurai went in this direction, rather than the paint brush path. And I love that he included the Koopalings.

 

[FunAtParties]

Bowser Jr. has been a boss character that fights by piloting mechanoids against Mario. I am glad Sakurai went in this direction, rather than the paint brush path. And I love that he included the Koopalings.

I prefer the brush, personally.

 

[Bowserlick]

I prefer the brush, personally.

Well there is most likely Inkling to look forward to for a paint-based offensive play-style.

 

[FunAtParties]

Well there is most likely Inkling to look forward to for a paint-based offensive play-style.

It works differently though. The paintbrush in Sunshine could open up portals, could summon those weird little enemies, and the paint was toxic. Could've made a really standout character.

 

[Opossum]

I'd always wanted a mech fighter, so Bowser Jr. being one was a great surprise. I love it so much more than any paintbrush moveset.

 

[FunAtParties]

I'd always wanted a mech fighter, so Bowser Jr. being one was a great surprise. I love it so much more than any paintbrush moveset.

You're killing me.

I don't disagree that there should be a mach in Smash, but even with the Clown kart, making it with Bowser Jr is inconsequential. It could be just been the Koopalings with BJ doing his own thing.

 

[Kirbeh]

I'd always wanted a mech fighter, so Bowser Jr. being one was a great surprise. I love it so much more than any paintbrush moveset.

Pretty much this. That said, I think everything Zesty brought up would great ideas as well, though I think each of those ideas could be expanded upon to make them the focus of other characters.

-A character with poison effects on many of it's attacks for extra damage.
-A character that summons minions or sets down traps.
-A character that can set up portals for quick movement or redirecting projectiles and the like.

 

[Deleted member]

You're killing me.

I don't disagree that there should be a mach in Smash, but even with the Clown kart, making it with Bowser Jr is inconsequential. It could be just been the Koopalings with BJ doing his own thing.

Except it makes much more sense for Jr. to be the mech fighter than it does the Koopalings.

Majority of the boss fights with him in the entire series is with a mech. And most of the time, it's the Clown Car. Just like in Smash.

 

[Kirbeh]

Except it makes much more sense for Jr. to be the mech fighter than it does the Koopalings.

Majority of the boss fights with him in the entire series is with a mech. And most of the time, it's the Clown Car. Just like in Smash.

That's quite a fair point, and I honestly feel it's the same deal with a few others like Krystal. People went with the paintbrush for Jr. and still support the staff for Krystal because it's what they debuted with. In the end though, these items never appear again and the characters move on to using other tools/abilities for the remainder of their appearances.

 

[Schnee117]

-A character that can set up portals for quick movement or redirecting projectiles and the like.

Let's go further and just include the Portal series with Chell being a fighter.
Bonus points for GLaDOS and Wheatley having some banter in the background of an Aperture Science Test Chamber stage.

 

[Kirbeh]

Let's go further and just include the Portal series with Chell being a fighter.
Bonus points for GLaDOS and Wheatley having some banter in the background of an Aperture Science Test Chamber stage.

I like Portal, and Chell would certainly fit this playstyle very well, but I kind of doubt we'd ever get a Valve character. And if we did, it's Gordon Freeman or bust imo. That said, your idea for an Aperture stage sounds fantastic. Having them talk to/taunt the players would be pretty funny to hear.

I guess as a new topic, are there any Nintendo characters that could fill the 3 ideas Zesty brought up? A Poison type Pokemon could easily fill one of those roles, but there aren't really any super prominent ones that I could see getting into Smash.

 

[FunAtParties]

Except it makes much more sense for Jr. to be the mech fighter than it does the Koopalings.

Majority of the boss fights with him in the entire series is with a mech. And most of the time, it's the Clown Car. Just like in Smash.

I'm just saying as the design stands, it's kind of inconsequential as to who the 'lead' character is. While it makes sense for Bowser Jr, it's not like the character is reliant on him being there. It's pretty much Clown Kart +1.

With that in mind, all the support Bowser Jr got was as the character he was in Sunshine. Both ideas could have coexisted, and Jr could be still done his own thing, imo anyway.

 

[Luminario]

If Krystal didn't get in after the one-two punch of Adventures and Assault it seems unlikely she'd be included any time soon.


You must see how comparing a declining series to a fledging one is no small false equivalency...

Sadly the most I see SF getting in the future barring a return to form for the series is Wolf being re-added at some point.

Damn, you got me there. I really hope we get something out of the series soon but knowing Miyamoto it's another Starfox 64 remake waiting to happen.
Still though, 2 unique fighters and 2 semi-clones isn't that much of a stretch for an iconic Nintendo series that's been there since Smash 64 is it? Declining series and all? Or am I just creating excuses cause I want Krystal in the game?

 

[Deleted member]

The only reason the Koopalings are even in their own Clown Cars in Smash are because of being palette swaps for Jr.
They themselves have never used Clown Cars in the Mario series in their boss fights, with the only time they used a Clown Car at all was all seven at once using Bowser's for transportation purposes in New Super Mario Bros. 2.

So no, both ideas couldn't coexist.

And seeing as the Koopalings all have their own methods of fighting that are unique, to tack on the Clown Car to them just so Jr. can have a paintbrush is biased and hypocritical.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Samus shouldn't be playable in the Power Suit. It makes sense, but it's not like the character is reliant on her being inside the suit. They could just have Power Suit Samus be SAX instead, and have Zero Suit Samus be the only playable Samus. Both ideas can coexist, and Samus can do her own thing.

 

[Gagnetar]

Damn, you got me there. I really hope we get something out of the series soon but knowing Miyamoto it's another Starfox 64 remake waiting to happen.
Still though, 2 unique fighters and 2 semi-clones isn't that much of a stretch for an iconic Nintendo series that's been there since Smash 64 is it? Declining series and all? Or am I just creating excuses cause I want Krystal in the game?

Don't give up hope yet! not until we see the end of Smash 6 DLC should we give up. I find it hard to believe her popularity evaporated. FE is a special case though i made that same comparison myself. Geno is irrelevant yet Sakurai expressed personal interest in him. They can't possibly be expecting a remake of Starfox 64 to work after it bombed with Zero. Q-Games has an interest in working on a starfox sequel and Plat probably hasn't thrown out the series yet. I still say if she did well enough on the ballot she'll be a fighter this go round.

 

[N3ON]

Damn, you got me there. I really hope we get something out of the series soon but knowing Miyamoto it's another Starfox 64 remake waiting to happen.
Still though, 2 unique fighters and 2 semi-clones isn't that much of a stretch for an iconic Nintendo series that's been there since Smash 64 is it? Declining series and all? Or am I just creating excuses cause I want Krystal in the game?

Well theoretically it's possible but you've got to look at things on a series-by-series basis. Otherwise under that logic series like Mario and F-Zero could be lumped together. As it stands now SF is in a position where it seems pretty unlikely the series count will grow by more than one. And it's not so much growing as just returning to how it was in a past game... and even that is hardly an inevitability.

But hey, I'd be thrilled if we got Krystal. It just seems like Brawl was her one shot, one opportunity. At least until she starts appearing in SF games again, which would require new SF games, probably to be developed outside of Nintendo.

 

[FunAtParties]

The only reason the Koopalings are even in their own Clown Cars in Smash are because of being palette swaps for Jr.
They themselves have never used Clown Cars in the Mario series in their boss fights, with the only time they used a Clown Car at all was all seven at once using Bowser's for transportation purposes in New Super Mario Bros. 2.

So no, both ideas couldn't coexist.

And seeing as the Koopalings all have their own methods of fighting that are unique, to tack on the Clown Car to them just so Jr. can have a paintbrush is biased and hypocritical.

You need to relax, I never said it wasn't anything but my personal desires.

What I think would be really cool personally is for Bowser Jr have the mech to start, and after he evacuated, he can use the paintbrush. New take on the transformation gimmick.

 

[AEMehr]

You know what I want.

I want to be revamped. I'd have a more exciting base moveset over a customizable one.

Any ideas on how to revamp those three while still keeping the feel from Smash 4?



Don't say cut Miis.

you don't even play miis how can you find them boring

what the Miis need are a buff lol, legal specials would be nice too

----
but a new fighter archetype would be pretty cool

maybe a heavy-tank fighter

 

[Gagnetar]

Well theoretically it's possible but you've got to look at things on a series-by-series basis. Otherwise under that logic series like Mario and F-Zero could be lumped together. As it stands now SF is in a position where it seems pretty unlikely the series count will grow by more than one. And it's not so much growing as just returning to how it was in a past game... and even that is hardly an inevitability.

But hey, I'd be thrilled if we got Krystal. It just seems like Brawl was her one shot, one opportunity. At least until she starts appearing in SF games again, which would require new SF games, probably to be developed outside of Nintendo.

Looking at sales is a better angle than how iconic the series is. Wolf taking her chance in Brawl doesn't persay prevent either of them from returning. Starfox itself seems like a special case in itself seeing as Wolf is a veteran of smash and people wanting him to return seems quite global and Krystal for seperate reasons all together, but no one expected him not to return and no one expected him not to be DLC for smash 4. She may have missed the standard opportunity to be fighter but with the ballot the next form of smash is likely to be anything from conventional and Miyamoto being interested in putting more passion into SF sounds like a good time to put something into a 25th sequel. Krystal already "dancing" in Sakurai's head means she very well might appear. The relevance card is a strong card indeed but it's not omnipotent. If the character can sell on it's own merits it doesn't need to be an advertisement. And there's not too much reason to not expect a Starfox title on the switch. I don't think the team really thought Roy should return for Fire Emblem but he reappeared as a vet anyway because melee fans loved him. Wolf is arguably the most requested veteran from around the net aswell so that comparison does work. I'd be willing to wager clones don't affect series in a representation sense and they come in simply due to current popularity of said series. Krystal would come in because of her potential as an interesting fighter and wolf would return because of ease of development and popularity. Though that would likely mean they won't look hard for more fighters for them. Either way ignoring a good and popular fighter choice for a simple reasons seems like bad design philosophy to me.

 

[n8han11]

On the subject of possible playable characters, I'm hoping for Ganondorf in the new Smash. Sure, we may have had a character claiming to be Ganondorf in the previous games, but he played nothing like Ganondorf should - he can't use the Dead Man's Volley, he can't fly or teleport, he doesn't use his sword or trident... he's just a pale imitation of the actual Ganondorf.

 

[Kirbeh]

Looking at sales is a better angle than how iconic the series is. Wolf taking her chance in Brawl doesn't persay prevent either of them from returning. Starfox itself seems like a special case in itself seeing as Wolf is a veteran of smash and people wanting him to return seems quite global and Krystal for seperate reasons all together, but no one expected him not to return and no one expected him not to be DLC for smash 4. She may have missed the standard opportunity to be fighter but with the ballot the next form of smash is likely to be anything from conventional and Miyamoto being interested in putting more passion into SF sounds like a good time to put something into a 25th sequel. Krystal already "dancing" in Sakurai's head means she very well might appear. The relevance card is a strong card indeed but it's not omnipotent. If the character can sell on it's own merits it doesn't need to be an advertisement. And there's not too much reason to not expect a Starfox title on the switch. I don't think the team really thought Roy should return for Fire Emblem but he reappeared as a vet anyway because melee fans loved him. Wolf is arguably the most requested veteran from around the net aswell so that comparison does work. I'd be willing to wager clones don't affect series in a representation sense and they come in simply due to current popularity of said series. Krystal would come in because of her potential as an interesting fighter and wolf would return because of ease of development and popularity. Though that would likely mean they won't look hard for more fighters for them. Either way ignoring a good and popular fighter choice for a simple reasons seems like bad design philosophy to me.

While I do support Krystal, I'm still going to argue a few points here:

-Relevance may not be the only factor, but it is an important one, and as it currently stands she isn't and her future within the Star Fox series is unknown. Miyamoto wanting to work on Star Fox more could help (It'd likely raise the opportunity for Star Fox characters in general not just Krystal), but that's dependent on whether she returns, and what role she takes if she does.

-We don't actually know if Sakurai sees Krystal as a character who "dances" in his eyes. She was brought up in an interview and he made note of why Wolf was chosen. He didn't necessarily say he would've picked Krystal otherwise. He could very well see her potential but he didn't really address Krystal herself so we don't really know.

-I wouldn't say they're ignoring her really. There are dozens upon dozens of characters who have potential and popularity. Picking from among those is no easy task, and not every character is necessarily going to picked due to popularity, otherwise we would never have gotten the likes of Game & Watch, Ice Climbers, ROB, Pit, Wii Fit Trainer, etc. They are passing her up in favor of other characters, but they have to weigh their options on how many and what characters they can add. Considering Star Fox's general decline over the past decade it doesn't really surprise me it ended up being low priority for new content in Smash For. And back in Brawl, circumstances simply weren't in her favor.

 

[Opossum]

I like Portal, and Chell would certainly fit this playstyle very well, but I kind of doubt we'd ever get a Valve character. And if we did, it's Gordon Freeman or bust imo. That said, your idea for an Aperture stage sounds fantastic. Having them talk to/taunt the players would be pretty funny to hear.

I guess as a new topic, are there any Nintendo characters that could fill the 3 ideas Zesty brought up? A Poison type Pokemon could easily fill one of those roles, but there aren't really any super prominent ones that I could see getting into Smash.

No joke, I'd love for Chell to be playable. Portal's such an iconic game franchise and a character who fights by using portals would be incredible to see in Smash. And hey, Miyamoto praised Pac-Man, he got on. Miyamoto also praised Portal for its creativity and innovation. Coincidence?

...Yes. But still.

A reworked Ivysaur with Poison Powder could theoretically work for the poison/DoT archetype. Nintendo doesn't have a lot of summoning characters though. The only ones that come to mind are Adeline with her magic paintings (Kirby), Kiran with Breidablik (Fire Emblem Heroes) and Hoopa with its magic rings (Pokémon).

 

[Gagnetar]

While I do support Krystal, I'm still going to argue a few points here:

-Relevance may not be the only factor, but it is an important one, and as it currently stands she isn't and her future within the Star Fox series is unknown. Miyamoto wanting to work on Star Fox more could help (It'd likely raise the opportunity for Star Fox characters in general not just Krystal), but that's dependent on whether she returns, and what role she takes if she does.

-We don't actually know if Sakurai sees Krystal as a character who "dances" in his eyes. She was brought up in an interview and he made note of why Wolf was chosen. He didn't necessarily say he would've picked Krystal otherwise. He could very well see her potential but he didn't really address Krystal herself so we don't really know.

Irrelevance isn't as important this go round because we'll likely get a few fighters or so from the ballot there are more popular choices but not characters that already have their kit concept, have been looked at before and have good kit potential and are easily obtainable and I'd argue that popularity with these other factors is enough to get her in even with relevance.

Actually he said he "already has an idea of how she would work" and that Wolf was chosen because he was more realizable given the time contraints if there was more time Krystal would likely have been chosen over Wolf because of having more uniqueness and a competitive popularity at the time. She barely missed her shot at brawl given that information.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Actually [sakurai] said he "already has an idea of how she would work"

Source? because as far as I know Sakurai only commented on Krystal once
http://sourcegaming.info/2015/08/17/sakuraibrawlquestions/

Host: Does that mean even if you wanted to add more female characters, Krystal didn’t have a realistic chance of being physically implemented into the game?

Sakurai: For Krystal, we didn’t have any of the technical modeling knowledge that we had cultivated with Fox and Falco, so it was like making a brand-new character from scratch. And because of the limited amount of time we had, creating Krystal wasn’t realistically possible. On that point, with Wolf we already have some knowledge of how to model his character, and would require about 70% of the effort required to create a whole new character.

Host: I see. But we did get a lot of questions like, “Why wasn’t Krystal a playable character?”

Sakurai: It’s not that I don’t understand how that feels, but if you start saying that, it becomes “Why isn’t Waddle Dee playable?” or Dry Bones, or Baby Peach. There’d be no end to it.

 

[Curious Villager]

I mean, even in Sunshine itself, Bowser jr used a mech twice to battle Mario, leaving only the paint brush for whenever he goes into his Shadow Mario disguise. Which is, pretty much what he does in Smash too when his final Smash is taken into account. He's pretty much always used a mech far more often to battle Mario too onwards throughout the series, most notably with the koopa clown car. So I'd say he's pretty well represented in Smash imo.

 

[FunAtParties]

I mean, even in Sunshine itself, Bowser jr used a mech twice to battle Mario, leaving only the paint brush for whenever he goes into his Shadow Mario disguise. Which is, pretty much what he does in Smash too when his final Smash is taken into account. He's pretty much always used a mech far more often to battle Mario too onwards throughout the series, most notably with the koopa clown car. So I'd say he's pretty well represented in Smash imo.

I never said he wasn't well represented in Smash, I said in no uncertain terms, I would've liked him to have the paintbrush more.

Y'all are going to kill me one of these days I swear.

 

[Curious Villager]

I never said he wasn't well represented in Smash, I said in no uncertain terms, I would've liked him to have the paintbrush more.

Y'all are going to kill me one of these days I swear.

Oh, I wasn't directing this at you specifically or anything. Just giving my own two cent's is all.

 

[Deleted member]

You need to relax

>Makes counterpoint to a statement

>Is told I need to relax

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

That's quite a fair point, and I honestly feel it's the same deal with a few others like Krystal. People went with the paintbrush for Jr. and still support the staff for Krystal because it's what they debuted with. In the end though, these items never appear again and the characters move on to using other tools/abilities for the remainder of their appearances.

The funny thing is, Waluigi only really uses a Tennis racket while playing Tennis, and yet in his Assist Trophy appearances, he uses a Tennis racket to try to clobber anyone in his way.