Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Mega Bidoof]

Pauline seems more suited for a stage cameo, and even if she was considered a playable role, which franchise would she represent?

I think it’d definitley be Mario, for consistency on the roster.

Yeah, she technically debuted in the Donkey Kong series, but she’d be in mostly because of her appearance in Odyssey, and 90% of the DK series in Smash is referring to the DKC series.

It’s kinda like how Wario debuted in the Mario series, but in the game he’s wearing his biker outfit from WarioWare and just wouldn’t feel right next to the Mario characters like that.

It really just boils down to this: What would looks nicer on the roster? Pauline next to Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Jr, and Rosalina, or Pauline next to Donkey Kong, Diddy, and maybe K. Rool or Dixie?

 

[Tree Gelbman]

The Mario newcomer situation is kinda wild right now, because legit Captain Toad, Waluigi, Pauline, Geno, Daisy.

They've all either had Sakurai's attention in some way, blew up even more in the time between last Smash, or definitely lit the ballot on fire.

Daisy is probably the biggest dark horse, but I feel as if Waluigi probably did better than her in the ballot and if it's gonna come down to a sports person it'll be him not her.

I honestly am not even gonna try to predict the Mario situation this go-around.

 

[Superyoshiom]

So it's really only impressive on the merit that, as a single game, it sold as much as the big boys (I feel like that's ignoring the fact that it's been ported to anything and everything, but ok). Impressive? Sure, but that doesn't make it any more notable in regards to Smash. That's hardly a reason to put it above anything else. Besides, you know what other single game sold an astonishing amount? The Oregon Trail. Mario dies of dysentery for Smash.


TIL Swamp is a teacher.

Kids love Minecraft, sure (but kids are stupid and love anything so hey), but do they actually love Minecraft Steve? I've never played the game, admittedly, but from my understanding, it's a first person block placing simulator with a generic avatar as the protagonist, so I have trouble believing anyone actually cares about the "character" himself outside of memes.

Cultural icon or not, being a character in Smash takes more than just outstanding marks in one category. Pong and Tetris were sensations, the most they got were an assist trophy (based on Nintendo's own version) and two music tracks respectively. If they even bother with the licensing, Minecraft would probably get a stage at most.

Does Sakurai understand when a character would upset a large portion of his fan base? Obviously with clones he doesn’t care and he’s only ever picked third parties that were generally well-received, but does he understand the absolute salt fest that would occur from having a literal meme character like Steve in smash?

A Minecraft stage would be a much better way to represent the series, if you absolutely have too. The main draw of the game was the environment and gameplay, not the characters who you never had to see, as the whole game was in first person. After playing Minecraft for a few months, I didn’t even know what my avatar looked like.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I personally think there will only be like 3 or 4 newcomers selected from the ballot with most of the newcomer roster being selected based off what was prominent around 2014-2016.

That just might be reasonable. The one thing I would keep in mind is that while Sakurai could look at things relevant in that timespan, I would think he may also consider what’s happening around the time Smash Switch is out.

This is where, I think, characters like Rex+ Pyra and potentially an ARMS character could squeeze in. No guarantees, but with the new console moving quickly, I could see Nintendo giving Sakurai a hint to keep up he momentum of newer titles.

I’ve always felt that Smash has done a good job of updating, but still seem a tad behind. Imagine if Sakurai got ahead of the game and added some more recent characters. Like more than one Greninja, within reason.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I think it’d definitley be Mario, for consistency on the roster.

Yeah, she technically debuted in the Donkey Kong series, but she’d be in mostly because of her appearance in Odyssey, and 90% of the DK series in Smash is referring to the DKC series.

It’s kinda like how Wario debuted in the Mario series, but in the game he’s wearing his biker outfit from WarioWare and just wouldn’t feel right next to the Mario characters like that.

It really just boils down to this: What would looks nicer on the roster? Pauline next to Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Jr, and Rosalina, or Pauline next to Donkey Kong, Diddy, and maybe K. Rool or Dixie?

Yeah the main issue that Pauline has is that she has mostly interacted with Donkey Kong, and the Mushroom Kingdom residents. As such, despite starting out as a Donkey Kong series character, she'd more likely be treated as a Super Mario series character now, especially after appearing in Super Mario Odyssey.

Of course, Super Mario Odyssey also introduced Poochy to the mainstream Super Mario series. But unlike with Pauline, Poochy has stronger connections with the Yoshi's Island series, and would most likely be categorized under the Yoshi's Island series if he ever manages to receive a trophy cameo.

 

[Freduardo]

Pauline seems more suited for a stage cameo, and even if she was considered a playable role, which franchise would she represent?

In truth: the mario vs DK series.

On the game map: Since my experience usually sees DK and Diddy right next to the mario franchise characters... right between the two.

As for whether the mushroom emblem or the DK emblem fits her best... wario and Yoshi get their own emblems for repping sub franchises, she could do the same.

 

[Superyoshiom]

Think about the biggest game Pauline was in. Technically that's Donkey Kong on the Arcade, where Mario is also from, so think down from there. Since then, she's never appeared in a game without Mario, even in the Mario vs DK series. And her biggest game since her initial game was a full-fledged Mario game. I'm confident she'd be classified as a Mario character, as DK ins smash tends to represent the Rare and Retro DK games.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Things Pauline can represent:

The hat toss from Mario Odyssey.
Music (It's canon she's a good musician.)
The Mario vs DK games.
The original Donkey Kong (Donkey himself barely even does this.)

Pauline has a lot of unique and original potential already.

 

[Megadoomer]

In truth: the mario vs DK series.

On the game map: Since my experience usually sees DK and Diddy right next to the mario franchise characters... right between the two.

As for whether the mushroom emblem or the DK emblem fits her best... wario and Yoshi get their own emblems for repping sub franchises, she could do the same.

Wario and Yoshi get their own emblems because they're the stars of their own series; that is decidedly not the case with Pauline.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Can the Donkey Kong series at least have an Assist Trophy like most of the other series?

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Yeah, Wario and Yoshi getting their own icons is cool. They're the most profitable and long running spin-offs of Mario.

None of the others even if they've had spin-offs (Luigi, Peach, Toad/Captain Toad, etc) would feel right giving them their own icon.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Pauline first appeared in Donkey Kong, along with Mario and DK himself, we can rule that out/call it a crossover, so she's not in either series based on that. Her only appearances since then and before Odyssey were in Mario vs DK, also crossovers, so she was still not really a part of either series. Then Odyssey happened, so she's now been in one mainline Mario game. She hasn't been in any pure DK/C game, so by the power of deduction, she's a Mario character with one point from Odyssey.

As for Mario characters in general, I do want her in Smash. Toad would be nice too, but I'm not particularly rooting for him.

I want Waluigi to get in as a Wario character with a redesign based on Wario's biker look.

 

[Deleted member]

Personally, I get really confused as to why Konami newcomers are seen as having a good shot for Smash Switch. I feel Kojima's forced seperation from Konami changed Sakurai's POV of the company negatively for the long term, given that Kojima and Sakurai are close friends. It makes Konami characters in general an impossibility to me.

I want to hear the specific reasons. I am super curious.

• Bomberman's situation is totally different from Snake's and aside from that, we don't know why Snake got excluded in the first place
• Bomberman as a franchise has a future, with a successful Switch game called Super Bomberman R that's being ported to the Xbox One, PS4, and Steam and Konami looking to expand the multimedia side of the franchise
• Nintendo and Konami collaborated on the latest game, indicating working relationship between the two
• Bomberman is an early mutli-player icon
• He's a Japanese character which makes it easier for Sakurai to justify his inclusion over a Western character like Rayman
• Sakurai does not let his view of a company affect whenever or not a character can get in else we wouldn't have gotten Mega Man when video game fans were calling for Capcom to sell their IPs
• Konami will want a character in Smash and they're no way they're going to say "No" to Bomberman
• Past game shows that this game could have a larger emphasis on third-parties

I honestly think he is the most likely third-party character be it base game or DLC. All Sakurai has to do is to ask Konami and he's in.

 

[Polan]

Does Sakurai understand when a character would upset a large portion of his fan base? Obviously with clones he doesn’t care and he’s only ever picked third parties that were generally well-received, but does he understand the absolute salt fest that would occur from having a literal meme character like Steve in smash?

The Smash fanbase already turns into the Dead Sea whenever a new character is revealed so I don't see how Sakurai is going to be bothered by it.

 

[Applebutter61]

Hey here's a wild idea; who wants to see DACUS come back?

 

[JamesDNaux]

• Bomberman's situation is totally different from Snake's and aside from that, we don't know why Snake got excluded in the first place
• Bomberman as a franchise has a future, with a successful Switch game called Super Bomberman R that's being ported to the Xbox One, PS4, and Steam and Konami looking to expand the multimedia side of the franchise
• Nintendo and Konami collaborated on the latest game, indicating working relationship between the two
• Bomberman is an early mutli-player icon
• He's a Japanese character which makes it easier for Sakurai to justify his inclusion over a Western character like Rayman
• Sakurai does not let his view of a company affect whenever or not a character can get in else we wouldn't have gotten Mega Man when video game fans were calling for Capcom to sell their IPs
• Konami will want a character in Smash and they're no way they're going to say "No" to Bomberman
• Past game shows that this game could have a larger emphasis on third-parties

I honestly think he is the most likely third-party character be it base game or DLC. All Sakurai has to do is to ask Konami and he's in.

Not to knock Bomberman, but if Konami wants to play ball again, Snake is coming back.

Sakurai could still add a Konami newcomer as well, but it would probably be Simon Belmont if anyone.

Hey here's a wild idea; who wants to see DACUS come back?

If Snake comes back, absolutely.

 

[NintenZ]

Hey here's a wild idea; who wants to see DACUS come back?

I mean it technically already did... But it got removed shortly after the game’s release via a patch.

 

[Deleted member]

Not to knock Bomberman, but if Konami wants to play ball again, Snake is coming back.

Sakurai could still add a Konami newcomer as well, but it would probably be Simon Belmont if anyone.

I disagree. There doesn't have to be multiple Konami characters for Bomberman to get in, he could simply ask for Bomberman and that would be the end of it. After all, he wouldn't be a controversial addition in the slightest like Ryu would have been if he got on the base roster over Mega Man. It's like saying we can't have a Tekken or Tales character if Pac-Man doesn't come back.

We shouldn't assume that one character's inclusion is dependent on some else getting in and Konami is no exception.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

That just might be reasonable. The one thing I would keep in mind is that while Sakurai could look at things relevant in that timespan, I would think he may also consider what’s happening around the time Smash Switch is out.

This is where, I think, characters like Rex+ Pyra and potentially an ARMS character could squeeze in. No guarantees, but with the new console moving quickly, I could see Nintendo giving Sakurai a hint to keep up he momentum of newer titles.

I’ve always felt that Smash has done a good job of updating, but still seem a tad behind. Imagine if Sakurai got ahead of the game and added some more recent characters. Like more than one Greninja, within reason.

That's definitely a valid point you brought up there. You also have to keep in mind that there weren't any newcomer character from past games that had the same circumstances surrounding their inclusion.

Roy was a last-minute clone that was only considered because Sakurai had extra time and Lucas' game was intended to be released in the same year Brawl's roster was finalised. In contrast, despite the fact the game wasn't ever going to be released until a year later than when the Smash 4 roster was finalised, a slot was prioritised for an X and Y newcomer.

 

[NintenZ]

There’s only one cut I’m expecting if there are any to begin with, and I feel that the cut is rather justified tbh. Dark Pit is who I see as the most likely cut.

 

[Applebutter61]

I mean it technically already did... But it got removed shortly after the game’s release via a patch.

That sucks. Why did they do that?

Also, there's some good DACUSes aside from Snake's. Wolf's in brawl, Ganon's in PM. Please give us back DACUSing Mr. Sakurai. Gosh, Snake is (or was) such a flippin' fun character! I understand that, realistically, we probably won't see the return of Snake, but could we make someone who plays just like him in the next game? Pleeease Mr. Sakurai.

 

[NintenZ]

That sucks. Why did they do that?

Also, there's some good DACUSes aside from Snake's. Wolf's in brawl, Ganon's in PM. Please give us back DACUSing Mr. Sakurai. Gosh, Snake is (or was) such a flippin' fun character! I understand that, realistically, we probably won't see the return of Snake, but could we make someone who plays just like him in the next game? Pleeease Mr. Sakurai.

Yeah, version 1.0.4 removed it, read about it here: https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_updates_(SSB4-3DS)/1.0.4_changelog

 

[JamesDNaux]

I disagree. There doesn't have to be multiple Konami characters for Bomberman to get in, he could simply ask for Bomberman and that would be the end of it. After all, he wouldn't be a controversial addition in the slightest like Ryu would have been if he got on the base roster over Mega Man. It's like saying we can't have a Tekken or Tales character if Pac-Man doesn't come back.

We shouldn't assume that one character's inclusion is dependent on some else getting in and Konami is no exception.

I'm not saying there has to be multiple Konami characters for Bomberman to get in, just that should Konami rejoin, I have zero doubt Snake will return. As for Bomberman, I just believe that Sakurai would pick Simon first and foremost, as someone with an outside perspective and no bias towards either. Simon fits the bill for the standard set by what third parties we have more than anyone else from Konami besides Snake himself. Of course it's entirely possible Sakurai could add all three, there's no company limit.

And there's no way in hell they'd put in someone from Tekken or Tales if Pac-Man didn't come back. There's a pecking order.

 

[Icedragonadam]

There’s only one cut I’m expecting if there are any to begin with, and I feel that the cut is rather justified tbh. Dark Pit is who I see as the most likely cut.

No not really IMO. That crown goes to Cloud.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Snake was easily one of the best newcomers. Period. It was a character so big it effectively changed the rules of what to expect in future titles. Without Snake we wouldn't of gotten characters like Sonic or Mega Man. It was also a character that showed a more mature and self-aware side to the Super Smash Bros. series.

The fact he's gone is a very big disappointment. Makes me wish there was somehow a way to get him back, but I have doubts about that sadly.

 

[Pakky]

I'm not saying there has to be multiple Konami characters for Bomberman to get in, just that should Konami rejoin, I have zero doubt Snake will return. As for Bomberman, I just believe that Sakurai would pick Simon first and foremost, as someone with an outside perspective and no bias towards either. Simon fits the bill for the standard set by what third parties we have more than anyone else from Konami besides Snake himself. Of course it's entirely possible Sakurai could add all three, there's no company limit.

And there's no way in hell they'd put in someone from Tekken or Tales if Pac-Man didn't come back. There's a pecking order.

Bomberman < Simon?

Is that a thing?

 

[NintenZ]

No not really IMO. That crown goes to Cloud.

Eh, with Cloud he’s at least relevant and unique, Dark Pit is not relevant or unique so I honestly don’t think they’ll bring him back if it’s a new installment, as they don’t tend to revamp characters very much and it doesn’t seem like Kid Icarus is getting another installment anytime soon. Who knows though, I could be wrong, maybe they’ll use their resources to make him into a unique character, or maybe Kid Icarus will get another installment bringing him back into the limelight, only time will tell but as of now I’m not holding my breath.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I feel like people put too much stock and weight into Simon Belmont in Smash.

 

[Applebutter61]

Yeah, version 1.0.4 removed it, read about it here: https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_updates_(SSB4-3DS)/1.0.4_changelog

"DACUS has been removed, making up smashes slightly less versatile." What kind of justification is that? Well if you delete your save file from sm4sh and disconnect from internet, I guess you can use DACUS on wii u (and diddy's hoo ha).

No not really IMO. That crown goes to Cloud.

Why cloud?

Looking at cuts from the past, all they usually do is make people salty. Maybe not in the case of young link and pichu, but pichu was a joke and young link was replaced (for the better) by toon link. Removing a relevant character like Cloud would seem like a bad idea to me. Just nerf him a wee bit. I would have to agree that if any characters should be cut that it should be a mostly irrelevant clone such as dark pit.

 

[Polan]

I'm surprised I haven't seen it mentioned...but they need to do the newcomer posters again. And give them away as My Nintendo rewards.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Cloud is no less likely to come back than Ryu. Any argument about Square Enix being difficult to work with is invalid by virtue of the fact that Cloud wouldn't have been playable if Square Enix was that unreasonable to work with.

Frankly, the only way I don't see Cloud coming back is if Sakurai simply doesn't want him back. It's not as if Cloud would have been anymore difficult to bring to Smash Switch than the previous game.

 

[Cyn]

I feel like people put too much stock and weight into Simon Belmont in Smash.

I feel like people don’t put in enough. Boom.

 

[Applebutter61]

I feel like people put too much stock and weight into Simon Belmont in Smash.

I know people in person who think Simon Belmont in Smash would be cool. I mean think about it, he fights with a whip, no? The closest thing we have to that is ZSS of course, but Simon would be such a different style than her. My opinion is that, however unlikely he is to get into smash, Simon Belmont would be a cool edition with a lot of potential. I mean, come on, how many Simon mains would we suddenly have?

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not saying there has to be multiple Konami characters for Bomberman to get in, just that should Konami rejoin, I have zero doubt Snake will return. As for Bomberman, I just believe that Sakurai would pick Simon first and foremost, as someone with an outside perspective and no bias towards either. Simon fits the bill for the standard set by what third parties we have more than anyone else from Konami besides Snake himself. Of course it's entirely possible Sakurai could add all three, there's no company limit.

And there's no way in hell they'd put in someone from Tekken or Tales if Pac-Man didn't come back. There's a pecking order.

There's not much else I can say other than I disagree about Snake returning being a surefire thing if Konami gets a character.

As for Simon, he's possible but I put stock into Bomberman because Nintendo and Konami worked together on the latest game. That tells me that both Nintendo and Konami have a vested interest in seeing that Bomberman has a future and what better way to ensure that than a Smash appearance (which before anyone brings this up is not a "He has a Nintendo history!" argument)? It's also good for Nintendo's image if they can showcase their improving third-party relationships and Bomberman is the best example they can use.

 

[Icedragonadam]

He's a 3rd party character which already puts them in the frontrunning for cuts because they have to have their rights renegotiated to be used for the game again. And Cloud of the 6 DLC characters have the biggest hurdles to go through which has evidence given the lack of overall Final Fantasy content in Smash. Only 2 songs, no other trophies besides Cloud. Even Bayonetta and Street Fighter have much more content than that It automatically puts him as the character most in danger.

He still has a chance, but it's smaller than everyone else on the roster. Dark Pit Dr. Mario, and Lucina were last minute clones that took very little time to add. It'll be a little longer for them to be made if they get decloned but they're easier to put in compared to Cloud.

 

[Morbi]

I feel like people put too much stock and weight into Simon Belmont in Smash.

I definitely agree with this sentiment. It just goes to show how powerful a hive-mind can be, that people somehow convince themselves that he is even vaguely likely. A frightening thought once you really think about it; however, that concern is too real for me to deal with. So I am just going to stick with, "Simon Belmont's only chance is if Sakurai desperately wanted Bomberman over Snake, for some reason, and then Konami told him that Bomberman only comes with Simon resulting in Sakurai getting completely ****-faced and signing the contract without contacting Nintendo. And then, naturally, Konami brides Nintendo to approve it after the fact." That is the only way I see it happening.

Oh, wait, I got another one. Metroid Prime 4 is actually a MetroidVania cross-over where you can play certain sections of the game as Simon Belmont. That would, perhaps, increase his chances above a negligible percentage!

Or, hear me out, what if Nintendo bought the rights to the Castlevania franchise and wanted to promote it over all of their other stuff? That could totally happen, probably.

Ha ha ha...

 

[Applebutter61]

Something interesting to think about: It was once said that, in Melee, Marth was purposely made to be a good character. In Brawl, it would seem the same applied to Meta Knight. In Smash Wii U, Cloud seems to have been blessed as well. Is it just me, or does Sakurai like making OP sword characters? If this is true, who will be the blade wielding hero in the next game?

 

[Morbi]

Cloud is no less likely to come back than Ryu. Any argument about Square Enix being difficult to work with is invalid by virtue of the fact that Cloud wouldn't have been playable if Square Enix was that unreasonable to work with.

Frankly, the only way I don't see Cloud coming back is if Sakurai simply doesn't want him back. It's not as if Cloud would have been anymore difficult to bring to Smash Switch than the previous game.

What?

No-no-no-no-no. The argument that Square Enix is difficult to work with is independent of Cloud's chance in Smash for the reason you stated, the argument is not, however, invalid just because you say it is. We do not know the circumstances whatsoever, the only objective fact that we DO know is that they were difficult and that absolutely plays into whether or not he might potentially return.

I agree with you, Cloud made it once, if anything, it will be easier the second time and that is ONLY assuming it was not a multi-title deal in the first place (which, may have hypothetically been the reason it was difficult, mind you). But he is absolutely less likely to come back than Ryu. I would not bet against either, but that is just the reality of the situation. Like it or not.

I believe it has more of an impact on other potential Square Enix characters than Cloud himself and even then, the ice is broken, so I doubt it will affect anything. Your claim is absurd regardless.

 

[Polan]

Sakurai: Well, I was sure you’d be busy, and I thought you wouldn’t have the time to discuss it with me.

Nomura: It was an opportunity for Cloud to appear in Smash, how could I turn it down?

Considering how influential Nomura is at Square Enix, I feel pretty confident in Cloud coming back.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I don't know that I agree with the mindset that 3rd parties can have "low" chances of getting in. Either they're in the game or they aren't. It's either 100% or 0%.

If we're talking about the ones we have, then it's definitely interesting. You pretty much just have to consider what negotiations would look like for a second time around. Would companies want more money than the first time around? What does that do to the overall opportunity cost? Potential for profit?

If the deal worked the first time, then it worked. Plain and simply. Does that guarantee that a second deal will work the same? Well, not necessarily. But to say, "They were hard to work with!" doesn't really explain why the deal worked in the first place. Not to mention, Octopath Traveler would show somewhat of a softening of a relationship between the two companies, as they're putting a lot of weight into the game itself. Cloud is the character of the series to get from Square Enix, so if anybody is coming from them, it's likely Cloud.

Personally, if the prices are right, I think it would be worth keeping all 3rd parties at this point. Adding in characters of that caliber do nothing but add to the quality of the game in my humble opinion.