Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Oh, gonna have to disagree with you there. I should preface this by saying I wouldn’t even mind Goku in smash that much.
The reason I think him being a non-videogame character is a legit point against him is because with him in it I feel like smash would begin to lose a sense of focus if you get me. People tend to bring up the mugen comparison, but it holds some validity. Smash, despite definitely having branched out game to game, has still stuck to the theme of characters whose origins are inexorably tied to videogames. It is the core focus of Smash if you will. Sakurai has even described it as the biggest video game crossover ever. If Goku got in, while I wouldn’t be super against it, I think it would be kind of taking away from what makes smash special. You can argue that smash originally was just Nintendo characters too, but I feel the difference lies in that there’s a bigger, uh, ‘breach’ between video games as a medium and all other mediums than there is between Nintendo video game characters and non-Nintendo video game characters. Also, you can argue slippery slope fallacy, but you know people certainly aren’t going to stop with Goku. Yes there have been plenty of high-selling dragon ball games but i feel my other points still stand, at least in my eyes. Plus I’d argue those dragon ball games haven’t actually influenced the medium in any significant way. I guess ultimately, at least for me, smash at its core still should retain some sort of focus, and that focus I feel is videogame charcters. If you add Goku, suddenly that core is gone, and the series has started to lose focus. The line between a non-videogame character who has significance in video games and one who doesn’t id argue is rather arbitrary anyway.

Feel free to disagree with this, I just hope you understand my perspective. I would have wrote more, but I’m on mobile and typing is REALLLY hard.
Oh and I hope I didn’t ramble too much.

It's just a game with fictional characters who often have ties to Nintendo. It's a fighting game. The characters are way more important than the whole "gaming" bit to begin with. If he only cared about being a love letter to video games, he wouldn't allow non-video game things, period. Pokemon Anime/Manga stuff, Advent Children stuff, and so on. It's not that important. It never really was a big deal, bar again, licensing.

Licensing, however, is. That's what matters. Manga characters are severely difficult to license due to way too many people owning the IP's. This makes them actually impossible.

Also, he knows this, which is why the Ballot asked for game characters only. Because non-game characters are too hard to license. For that matter, the game started out as Nintendo All-Stars. This was dropped even come Melee, where he was fine with Sonic and Snake getting in. There was never a real focus on being video game only. It was a focus on having recognizable characters so people will be interested. It's why the game even became Smash Bros. to begin with instead of a generic character fighting game(which all had similar models to Captain Falcon).

He has constantly removed all these fan-barriers. And what you said is still a pure fan-barrier. Most don't care. Just hardcore Smash fans give a crap about the "video game only". The reason many fangames ignore this while a lot of fans ask for non-game characters is because they don't care about that kind of crap. They just want fun characters to play as. Which is the actual premise of the entire game. Don't forget that even the first game had little emphasis on the whole "gaming" factor. It was just about a story about toys coming to life to fight. The only game bit was just saying where characters came from.

I just don't see how the stigma is legitimate. It's implying something the series never was. It wasn't a Gaming All-Stars. That wasn't ever what it was meant to be. It was meant to be a Fighting Game that starred recognizable characters but also had a lot of other fun characters that could make people happy. It's why the content is so vast and varied, as fanservice. That's why the games get bigger and bigger, so please more fans. Consider the fact he considers Assist Trophies to be excellent representation of a character to begin with. He wants that character in the spotlight in the game. He knows being playable isn't an option, so goes for this instead. And sometimes he can't even return an AT due to various development issues.

The fact he's never once said he disliked the idea of game characters being in definitely makes it a pure fan thing that it's somehow a bad idea. And yes, it's still an elitist point of view where "it's my style of Smash Bros. It has to follow my rules!" when that is a complete misinterpretation of Sakurai's point, but also creates nothing more than a pointless toxic environment. Even if Sakurai was against the idea? It still wouldn't be worth acting nuts over it, or creating a toxic environment over it. What's it even worth? Nothing.

Also, you did a pretty good job despite being on mobile. Kudos, man.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Arthur Morgan for Smash Bros

they're good changes

How dare.

I mean, I was actually good, or at least decent with her Pistol so, I also played her to prove that I'm a gamer, as I thought I was limiting my DPS and accuracy, yet still being able to get kills.

 

[Pyra]

How dare.

I mean, I was actually good, or at least decent with her Pistol so, I also played her to prove that I'm a gamer, as I thought I was limiting my DPS and accuracy, yet still being able to get kills.

I have more fun playing her now than I did before is all.

Less "hidey-Q" and more "playing the game"
battle mercys are always fun tho

 

[Knight Dude]

All of this talk of gunslingers in Smash, makes me want Sheriff in even more...
Shame that he's already been confirmed as an assist trophy

Well, since Samus and Fox are already in the game as they are, and Mega Man's guns are more Sci-Fi/Fantasy. Is there anyone that could fit that role? Inkling comes to mind, but that might not be what people would want.

Maybe Ray? Still Sci-Fi, but he'd also work as a mostly projectile character.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I stopped playing Overwatch pretty heavily because outside of a few changes and reworks. Every rework I've felt has been for the worst and Blizzard listening to a pretty vocal minority crying about particular characters and how they should be changed for the better or ''worse".

I particularly laugh at the current Brigitte situation seeing a lot of ''One trick!" and then laughing because that same group is responsible for Doomfist's buff and he's pretty much just as much a ''busted" one trick as she is.

A lot of the heroes in the game are pretty one trick to be honest so I just laugh when that term gets thrown out a lot.

 

[Noipoi]

I never got into Overwatch.

I said it's because it was too mainstream, but really it's because I was broke.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Well, since Samus and Fox are already in the game as they are, and Mega Man's guns are more Sci-Fi/Fantasy. Is there anyone that could fit that role? Inkling comes to mind, but that might not be what people would want.

Maybe Ray?

I just really want a cowboy... Kinda surprised that Nintendo doesn't have too many of those

 

[Pyra]

I stopped playing Overwatch pretty heavily because outside of a few changes and reworks. Every rework I've felt has been for the worst and Blizzard listening to a pretty vocal minority crying about particular characters and how they should be changed for the better or ''worse".

I particularly laugh at at the current Brigitte situation seeing a lot of ''One trick!" and then laughing because that same group is responsible for Doomfist's buff and he's pretty much just as much a ''busted" one trick as she is.

A lot of the heroes in the game are pretty one trick to be honest so I just laugh when that term gets thrown out a lot.

I never got into Overwatch.

I said it's because it was too mainstream, but really it's because I was broke.

State of the game is pretty rough atm

To relate this back to Smash I'll probably be just as salty playing Ultimate tbh
Hopefully the DLC characters don't drastically alter the meta so much

inb4 all 5 non-Plant fighters have stuns

 

[praline]

I stopped playing Overwatch pretty heavily because outside of a few changes and reworks. Every rework I've felt has been for the worst and Blizzard listening to a pretty vocal minority crying about particular characters and how they should be changed for the better or ''worse".

I particularly laugh at at the current Brigitte situation seeing a lot of ''One trick!" and then laughing because that same group is responsible for Doomfist's buff and he's pretty much just as much a ''busted" one trick as she is.

A lot of the heroes in the game are pretty one trick to be honest so I just laugh when that term gets thrown out a lot.

I haven’t played Overwatch in over a year lol it was like March of 2017 when I stopped.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

I just really want a cowboy... Kinda surprised that Nintendo doesn't have too many of those

Mad Dog McCree

 

[RyuhoFox]

Alright, we need a new topic:

Here's why Jevil is the most likely dlc character.
View attachment 178343

Nah man Susie is the most likely. She has an axe and a taunt already.

 

[LetterO]

Imagine Playing Overwatch

TF2 gamers rise up.

Put Scout in Smash Bros. he already has a double jump and his universe has crossed over with Sonic.

 

[Pyra]

Imagine Playing Overwatch

TF2 gamers rise up.

Put Scout in Smash Bros. he already has a double jump and has crossed over with Sonic.

have been playing TF2 since 09

i stopped playing so much after f2p and mann co store happened and it became Hat Tycoon
but i still go in every once in a while

Scout in Smash would be pretty hilarious tbh

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Imagine Playing Overwatch

TF2 gamers rise up.

Put Scout in Smash Bros. he already has a double jump and his universe has crossed over with Sonic.

I'm already Tracer

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Mad Dog McCree

That'd be something... lol

 

[Moydow]

People are talking about gun users in Smash? If it means we might get this:

Sign me up.

 

[Pyra]

People are talking about gun users in Smash?

Sign me up.

Like... sign you up to be a gun user in Smash?


Let's start a character support thread and get Moydow in as DLC

 

[Kingslime304]

I stopped playing Overwatch pretty heavily because outside of a few changes and reworks. Every rework I've felt has been for the worst and Blizzard listening to a pretty vocal minority crying about particular characters and how they should be changed for the better or ''worse".

I particularly laugh at the current Brigitte situation seeing a lot of ''One trick!" and then laughing because that same group is responsible for Doomfist's buff and he's pretty much just as much a ''busted" one trick as she is.

A lot of the heroes in the game are pretty one trick to be honest so I just laugh when that term gets thrown out a lot.

I also find the balance aspect of the community to be much more toxic in Overwatch than in Smash Bros (Kind of Ironic), while Smash is more toxic in announcements than the Overwatch community is.

 

[Knight Dude]

I just really want a cowboy... Kinda surprised that Nintendo doesn't have too many of those

Can't think of any Nintendo's got off the top of my head. I mean there's the Sheriff, but that dude's an AT.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Can't think of any Nintendo's got off the top of my head. I mean there's the Sheriff, but that dude's an AT.

There's also Dillon... But he's also an assist...

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Also, OW winning GotY was BS, is all I'm gonna say.

 

[Pyra]

Also, OW winning GotY was BS, is all I'm gonna say.

It should have been Paladins

 

[Knight Dude]

There's also Dillon... Also an assist...

Sure, but doesn't do too much of the Cowboy stuff, except maybe Dynamite. No guns, no rope, it's really just his design.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Also, OW winning GotY was BS, is all I'm gonna say.

What? The Game Awards are just a thing for certain companies to stroke their *****? Say it ain't so!

 

[Moydow]

Like... sign you up to be a gun user in Smash?


Let's start a character support thread and get Moydow in as DLC

Sure, why not. The picture is a self-portrait, and totally not an excuse to get an Etrian Odyssey character in via some back door. :p

bah, I knew someone would do this, but I was too slow about editing my post

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Also, OW winning GotY was BS, is all I'm gonna say.

To be fair, 2016 wasn't really that great of a year when it came to video games...

 

[RyuhoFox]

Also extreme layers of hate on Mercy and Mercy mains themselves (Despite wanting them to be simply enjoyable) for simply because of balance.

I think the devs have some kind of hatred of Mercy. Tmk all Marcy mains wanted was another ability, not a complete overhaul of her kit. A lot of the changes to her even after the kit change end up counteracting the whole point of the character and tend to shove her into the archetype that they are claiming they are trying to stop from happening.

The devs argued that Mercy was played passively and wasn't part of fights, and then nerf her in such a way that she HAS to be passive and leave fights to be used effectively, while now having the crappiest healing in the game. They screwed her up hard and considering how they have been treating the whole situation with the character and her mains I can't help but view it as intentional at this point.

 

[Deleted member]

It's just a game with fictional characters who often have ties to Nintendo. It's a fighting game. The characters are way more important than the whole "gaming" bit to begin with. If he only cared about being a love letter to video games, he wouldn't allow non-video game things, period. Pokemon Anime/Manga stuff, Advent Children stuff, and so on. It's not that important. It never really was a big deal, bar again, licensing.

Licensing, however, is. That's what matters. Manga characters are severely difficult to license due to way too many people owning the IP's. This makes them actually impossible.

Also, he knows this, which is why the Ballot asked for game characters only. Because non-game characters are too hard to license. For that matter, the game started out as Nintendo All-Stars. This was dropped even come Melee, where he was fine with Sonic and Snake getting in. There was never a real focus on being video game only. It was a focus on having recognizable characters so people will be interested. It's why the game even became Smash Bros. to begin with instead of a generic character fighting game(which all had similar models to Captain Falcon).

He has constantly removed all these fan-barriers. And what you said is still a pure fan-barrier. Most don't care. Just hardcore Smash fans give a crap about the "video game only". The reason many fangames ignore this while a lot of fans ask for non-game characters is because they don't care about that kind of crap. They just want fun characters to play as. Which is the actual premise of the entire game. Don't forget that even the first game had little emphasis on the whole "gaming" factor. It was just about a story about toys coming to life to fight. The only game bit was just saying where characters came from.

I just don't see how the stigma is legitimate. It's implying something the series never was. It wasn't a Gaming All-Stars. That wasn't ever what it was meant to be. It was meant to be a Fighting Game that starred recognizable characters but also had a lot of other fun characters that could make people happy. It's why the content is so vast and varied, as fanservice. That's why the games get bigger and bigger, so please more fans. Consider the fact he considers Assist Trophies to be excellent representation of a character to begin with. He wants that character in the spotlight in the game. He knows being playable isn't an option, so goes for this instead. And sometimes he can't even return an AT due to various development issues.

The fact he's never once said he disliked the idea of game characters being in definitely makes it a pure fan thing that it's somehow a bad idea. And yes, it's still an elitist point of view where "it's my style of Smash Bros. It has to follow my rules!" when that is a complete misinterpretation of Sakurai's point, but also creates nothing more than a pointless toxic environment. Even if Sakurai was against the idea? It still wouldn't be worth acting nuts over it, or creating a toxic environment over it. What's it even worth? Nothing.

Also, you did a pretty good job despite being on mobile. Kudos, man.

Thank you!
I do agree that character itself is more important than origin, but I wouldn’t discount origin in among entirely. Consider the fact that smash ultimate has placed a rather big emphasis on the characters being numbered and the legacy of the franchise, a legacy rooted in its entirety in gaming. You mention stuff like advent children and the Pokemon anime, but I’d say the key difference is that stuff like that still has their roots in video games, just like how ROB is a toy but is intrinsically linked to games.
It’s like, you can go over Goku as a character in detail without ever mentioning games, but I don’t really think you can say the same for pretty much all the characters in the roster. It’s like an underlying theme if you get me. I’d agree that licensing is certainly a bigger issue than origin though. You also mention the series origin as dragon king and how it evolved into smash, but I’d disagree that the clear point is to have recognisable characters fighting. That’s always been a big part, but unless my memory fails to serve me correctly(hey, happens to me a lot), some smash directs say things like ‘the biggest gaming crossover of all time’. It’s wording like that that gives me pause, because while yes it is factually true that there are no non-videogame characters in smash, why not just say ‘biggest crossover of all time’ just generally? It makes me feel like to a certain degree, Sakurai does want to emphasise ‘Hey this is THE BIGGEST GAMING CROSSOVER EVER’. I’m aware that that’s a very minor point and is probably just me projecting my thoughts, but I feel like to a certain extent you can say the same about smash being all about having recognisable characters fighting. As for the stuff about only hardcore gamers caring about this stuff, you’re right! People are free to think what they think, and ultimately how fun the character would be does matter the most imo, but again I don’t think origin should be just thrown out, although at that point I feel like it comes down to personal view on the admittedly rather silly subject. As for smash never being about gaming all-stars, again I feel like that comes down to opinion. Ultimately we don’t know what Sakurai views smash as really ‘being’, wether he thinks about it as being just a general all- star crossover, or a specifically gaming one. Either interpretation is still just an interpretation coming down to our own biases I feel.
Also, agree with there being a rude environment. People are allowed to have views on certain topics, but I feel like people do tend to take I too far for such an, again, silly subject. I guess I’m just trying to argue not how much validity the gaming origin argument holds, but that to me at least it holds a degree of validity at all, no matter how small it may be.
Probably won’t be able to type this extensively after this though, it feels like my fingers are being turned to mush haha.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

No community is more toxic than the Dead by Daylight community. I thought I'd seen it all in the Overwatch community but...

You'd be shocked what a small little cult game based on horror movie slashers can achieve.

EVERYONE feels entitled to stuff in that game.

The killers think the game is survivor sided. The survivor's think the game is killer sided. Everyone's in a tug of war.

Just as much as I enjoy playing that game, whooaaaaa doggie. You'd think a game based on a genre where people routinely die and even one or two routinely get away would have a community that understands that thought process would transfer over to a game based around that fact.

Oh, and Trapper for Smash. To you know make this relevant. Ultimate trap character. It's literally right there in his name.

 

[Deleted member]

December 7th 12:00 am (U.S time) in a nutshell

In other words.....


20 DAYS REMAIN

 

[doomedtacox]

have been playing TF2 since 09

i stopped playing so much after f2p and mann co store happened and it became Hat Tycoon
but i still go in every once in a while

Scout in Smash would be pretty hilarious tbh

Man the unusual hat tycoon was the golden age of tf2.

 

[Pyra]

aw **** i didn't even realize it was the 17th

you guys kept saying 20 days remaining and it sailed through my head until just now

 

[Deleted member]

have been playing TF2 since 09

i stopped playing so much after f2p and mann co store happened and it became Hat Tycoon
but i still go in every once in a while

Scout in Smash would be pretty hilarious tbh

Oh don’t worry

He’s already in

 

[Deleted member]

Oh don’t worry

He’s already in
View attachment 178351

guys I think this is legit

 

[staindgrey]

Also, OW winning GotY was BS, is all I'm gonna say.

What would you have put over it?

DOOM was, like, the only other game even remotely on the radar for GOTY that year. What else was there? Harvest Moon repackaged as a dating sim? Uncharted-but-this-time-it's-really-the-end-we-promise? One of the many walking simulators that started that trend? Pokemon Go?

Like, Gears 4 was my personal GOTY, but no individual game released in 2016 had as resounding of an affect on the industry and its fanbase as Overwatch did, like it or not.

 

[RyuhoFox]

I also find the balance aspect of the community to be much more toxic in Overwatch than in Smash Bros (Kind of Ironic), while Smash is more toxic in announcements than the Overwatch community is.

I find that because the grand majority of the fanbase is interested in characters and getting what they want for Smash while the competitive scene for it while it gets crapped on a lot tends to be a bit more a tightknit community bonded over something they generally agree on. Also the single and multiplayer elements can avoid each other for the most part so people aren't exactly forced to be competitive.
For Overwatch competitive play is pretty much all you have and new characters are all free anyway and completely original so not much complaining can be done on a casual level outside costumes and stuff. Meanwhile it is also a very team based game so players are quick to blame characters and their players for any losses or mishaps, putting balance on the forefront of a lot of people's minds.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

No community is more toxic than the Dead by Daylight community. I thought I'd seen it all in the Overwatch community but...

You'd be shocked what a small little cult game based on horror movie slashers can achieve.

EVERYONE feels entitled to stuff in that game.

The killers think the game is survivor sided. The survivor's think the game is killer sided. Everyone's in a tug of war.

Just as much as I enjoy playing that game, whooaaaaa doggie. You'd think a game based on a genre where people routinely die and even one or two routinely get away would have a community that understands that thought process would transfer over to a game based around that fact.

Oh, and Trapper for Smash. To you know make this relevant. Ultimate trap character. It's literally right there in his name.

Trap Daddy.

I remember when everyone considered him OP. Is he still unfair?

 

[Luigi The President]

Dear Diary

Day ???

I still miss Katalina not gonna lie

 

[Noipoi]

Dear Diary

Day ???

I still miss Katalina not gonna lie

Don't worry, she'll be properly laid to rest on December 5th.

That's where we'll hold a funeral for everyone who couldn't make it. Like Isaac, and Waluigi, before we fully give in to the hype.

 

[Kingslime304]

I kind of find Mario Party 8 underrated, as it was one of my favorite party games (Despite only playing 8, DS, and 9 in terms of the MP series).