Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Chandeelure]

Not to generalize, because I do hate to do that, but seeing the discussion about Bayonetta kinda makes it seem that people are making excuses as to why she should be cut instead of just saying, “I don’t like her”.

I doubt she’ll be cut, and I think her gameplay makes her fun. She needs to be somehow nerfed though, for sure.

Again, if you don’t like a character, don’t take them away from those who like the character. Just use that character as a punching bag.

Think of the children, Scoliosis!!!

lol, seriously, guys.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Does anyone actually know what realizable means?

re·al·i·za·ble
ˌrēəˈlīzəb(ə)l/
adjective

1. able to be achieved or made to happen.
   "such a dream, if it is realizable at all, is one for the far future"

this means out of all the characters that were physically possible to add to the game, Bayonetta outranked all of them.

 

[Cosmic77]

Does anyone actually know what realizable means?


this means out of all the characters that were physically possible to add to the game, Bayonetta outranked all of them.

It might not be legal, but technically every character is physically possible to add.


But seriously, we're never going to get clarification on this. Characters that Nintendo considered to not be "realizable" could be anything from Goku and Wonder Woman to Nintendo's own characters.

 

[Senselessbreak]

Does anyone actually know what realizable means?


this means out of all the characters that were physically possible to add to the game, Bayonetta outranked all of them.

Realizable is still a broad term. I mean I can want a turkey sandwich tonight but it might not be realizable because I don't have turkey on hand nor do I feel like going to the store to buy one. Instead I go with ham because its in the fridge and currently a realizable selection. Doesn't mean it can't happen, or won't happen down the road.

 

[Deathcarter]

I'm not really sure how much of a priority Bayo would be. People always bring up the fact that she's "basically a Nintendo character now," but that argument applies to practically everyone on the roster doesn't it?

Even though she's easily the least iconic third-party character, I will say that Nintendo probably has more to gain by keeping Bayo than they would if they kept a different third-party character. After all, her games have become Nintendo exclusives now.

I really doubt Sakurai had any knowledge about Bayonetta 3 or the Switch ports back when the roster was being decided back in mid-2016. Heck, I doubt Nintendo/Platinum/Sega themselves had made any decision on the course on the franchise around that time.

Bayo in general feels like a character who's not prohibitive to include but has just enough extra hoops to go through to see Sakurai write her off as low priority among the Smash 4 newcomers/DLC to bring back. That being said, she's basically guaranteed to be back at some point with DLC if she doesn't make it to the base roster.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I really doubt Sakurai had any knowledge about Bayonetta 3 or the Switch ports back when the roster was being decided back in mid-2016. Heck, I doubt Nintendo/Platinum/Sega themselves had made any decision on the course on the franchise around that time.

Bayo in general feels like a character who's not prohibitive to include but has just enough extra hoops to go through to see Sakurai write her off as low priority among the Smash 4 newcomers/DLC to bring back. That being said, she's basically guaranteed to be back at some point with DLC if she doesn't make it to the base roster.

She's the ballot winner, fam. Cutting her from base game is pretty much a big ass fan riot and bad juju headed Sakurai's way.

There's no way in heck he'll cut her from base game. She and Sonic are safest third parties.

I wager he'll fight hard for Cloud as well, seeing as next to Sonic, he's the playable third party icon people will probably riot most over. Have you seen Final Fantasy 7 fans? They crazy.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

She's the ballot winner, fam. Cutting her from base game is pretty much a big *** fan riot and bad juju headed Sakurai's way.

There's no way in heck he'll cut her from base game. She and Sonic are safest third parties.

Not that my post is meant to have anything to do with Bayonetta's chance of coming back, but almost any character cut will receive huge backlash.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Not that my post is meant to have anything to do with Bayonetta's chance of coming back, but almost any character cut will receive huge backlash.

While somewhat true.

Nothing is going to cause backlash like cutting the ''fan won" character.

Or Mario's biggest rival ever.

Or the literal character that everyone equated to as impossible as Goku for some reason. Like legit I'll never know why Cloud was in that same place as him for some reason, but a lot of Goku's ravenous fans? Also Cloud fans.

You think Wolf, Snake, Ice Climbers was bad?

 

[Chandeelure]

Some people are going to be very mad when they realize Bayonetta is coming back and that she will probably still be OP haha.

 

[PierceWantsToSmash]

Now that I think about it we don't have the gamepad anymore so I'm thinking we won't have to draw this time around. It may end up being more like brawls.

The Switch still has a touch screen that could be used for stage building but if it was docked then there would have to be another way to build.

 

[Cosmic77]

At the very least, I feel like Sonic and Mega Man should be a higher priority than the rest of the third-parties. It feels like those two are the only ones who share both the gaming iconicness and the massive fan demand traits.

While somewhat true.

Nothing is going to cause backlash like cutting the ''fan won" character.

Or Mario's biggest rival ever.

Or the literal character that everyone equated to as impossible as Goku for some reason. Like legit I'll never know why Cloud was in that same place as him for some reason, but a lot of Goku's ravenous fans? Also Cloud fans.

You think Wolf, Snake, Ice Climbers was bad?

Pffttt!!! You think cutting Bayo would be bad?! Grab a big 'ol bucket of popcorn and watch the fans react if Mewtwo gets cut again.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Some people are going to be very mad when they realize Bayonetta is coming back and that she will probably still be OP haha.

I can see her getting a bit of a nerf hammer, but by nature, she's built to be a combo fiend and I think that's what bothers people the most about her.

But how do you fix that when that's reflective of the gameplay from her series?

 

[Roberto zampari]

Speaking of Bayonetta, blame Sakurai for making a ballot where everyone, put repeated votes.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Pffttt!!! You think cutting Bayo would be bad?! Grab a big 'ol bucket of popcorn and watch the fans react if Mewtwo gets cut again.

Mewtwo would be bad, but he's also in a far more dangerous situation than Bayonetta. He's in a series with a ton of fighter potential and one with a bunch of reps. Cutting just about any Pokemon is going to be bad. But at some point with that series someone has to go.

I personally vote Jigglypuff, but then people get all ''BUT MAH ORIGINAL 12.."

 

[Cosmic77]

Mewtwo would be bad, but he's also in a far more dangerous situation than Bayonetta. He's in a series with a ton of fighter potential and one with a bunch of reps. Cutting just about any Pokemon is going to be bad. But at some point with that series someone has to go.

I personally vote Jigglypuff, but then people get all ''BUT MAH ORIGINAL 12.."

I don't think Mewtwo is necessarily in a dangerous situation when half of the six FE characters share the same moveset. Aside from being DLC, there's not really much holding him back. He's not a clone character, he's extremely popular, and he's still prominent in the Pokemon games.

Frankly, I'd be surprised if all six Pokemon didn't return. Even with an abundance of characters, its not like the series didn't earn that attention.

 

[ErenJager]

Realizable is term that requires parameters to understand specifically what it means.
Nintendo has never disclosed or detailed the parameters of what constituted a "realizable" character back then.

We can always make our own assumptions and inferences but at the end of the day, we don't know until they say otherwise.

I think that's what leads people to believe Nintendo probably pulled a fast one, and by "realizable" they meant a character they already had assets or development on. Although it's technically possible, we can't prove it.

We live in the ignorance of Nintendo's permitted knowledge.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

See the realizable thing is great because when ballot conspiracy theorists claim "Well ACTUALLY K.Rool won!" then they're saying K.Rool wouldn't work in Smash*

*K.Rool is being used due to being the example I've seen the most about ballot conspiracy theorists

 

[ColietheGoalie]

Again, if you don’t like a character, don’t take them away from those who like the character. Just use that character as a punching bag.

You’ve said this before, but honestly, it’s still an inconvienence having a character you don’t like around. Especially if she makes the base roster this time, there’s a character I don’t like that I need to go through all the modes with/earn trophies of, someone that can pop up when I select random, and be constantly appearing online.

It’s a nice sentiment, but it’s not really as simple as “don’t play as them if you don’t like them”.

 

[ErenJager]

Speaking of Bayonetta, blame Sakurai for making a ballot where everyone, put repeated votes.

Imagine a bot that just kept voting for Bayo was the reason she won.
Other bots had the top ten looking like Goku, Shrek, and Spongebob.
and that's where the term realizable came from... LOL

 

[Roberto zampari]

Imagine a bot that just kept voting for Bayo was the reason she won.
Other bots had the top ten looking like Goku, Shrek, and Spongebob.
and that's where the term realizable came from... LOL

Yes, that's the point...
Bots everywhere...

 

[Opossum]

You’ve said this before, but honestly, it’s still an inconvienence having a character you don’t like around. Especially if she makes the base roster this time, there’s a character I don’t like that I need to go through all the modes with/earn trophies of, someone that can pop up when I select random, and be constantly appearing online.

It’s a nice sentiment, but it’s not really as simple as “don’t play as them if you don’t like them”.

No one is forcing you to 100% the game though.

 

[SmashChu]

I've been seeing a lot of consensus that newest games always win out over older games in Smash representation, even with series that have a game released before planning starts but have another being planned at the same time. Namely, franchises like Pokemon (Gen 7 vs the unrevealed Gen 8), Xenoblade (2 year old Xenoblade X vs Xenoblade 2) and Fire Emblem (Echoes vs the unrevealed FE16). I wanted to raise a question for discussion.

How possible/likely is it that Sakurai treats these cases not as the same franchise but as separate games? In other words, the likelihood of getting a Gen 7/Xenoblade X/Fire Emblem Echoes rep AND a Gen 8/Xenoblade 2/Fire Emblem 16 rep. If both a released game and a game in planning have characters with promising movesets, would be unique in Smash, would be reasonably popular etc could they each get in on their own merit?

We've already seen something similar with Robin in Smash 4 and Corrin as DLC even if that had specific circumstances. Completely disregarding a new game for not being the newest seems like an odd move to me, especially when developing based on still-in-progress concepts has plenty of risks (imagine if they planned a Codename Steam character for Smash). 2 additions to existing franchises has happened before with Kirby in Brawl and plenty of other franchises in 4 if you take clones into account. I thought it was a possibility worth taking into account.

Its an interesting question. The answer I'd say is "it depends"

First, there is nothing stopping us getting two new characters from separate games in the series. We technically had that with Awakening and Fates. I think the only issue is they try and spread out the characters as you don't have too many from one series (though that doesn't always work out). So, if we have something like your describing, it would be more likely as DLC.

My expectation is we'll get Rex from Xenoblade 2 (as its the direct sequel to Shulk's game) and a Pokemon from Sun and Moon (as the Switch game may come out after). Fire Emblem I'm not sure about. However, Nintendo seems to use Splatoon's model for all its games. ARMS did this and Mario Tennis looks to be doing this. I wouldn't doubt Nintendo adding new characters after launch. If thats the case, you could see a Gen 8 Pokemon or someone from the new Fire Emblem.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Mewtwo would be bad, but he's also in a far more dangerous situation than Bayonetta. He's in a series with a ton of fighter potential and one with a bunch of reps. Cutting just about any Pokemon is going to be bad. But at some point with that series someone has to go.

I personally vote Jigglypuff, but then people get all ''BUT MAH ORIGINAL 12.."

I find it hypocritical of you to complain about the idea of a character getting cut because of her popularity whilst wanting another fan-favourite to be cut. As a Jigglypuff player and for whom Jigglypuff is one of his favourite characters in Smash, post like yours is why I can never respect the opinions of those who want her cut, mainly because of the obnoxious entitlement that comes with that reasoning, basically boiling down to "Muh deservingness!!!!"

I mean, I wasn't happy about the idea of Bayonetta being in Smash, but you don't see me asking for her removal.

 

[Roberto zampari]

If Rex will be included in Smash 5, perhaps Sakurai should cut Shulk.
Rex is more popular than Shulk?

 

[ColietheGoalie]

No one is forcing you to 100% the game though.

Yeah, but I like to beat the game with all characters to collect the trophies and such. Plus, there are unlockable connecting to completing the game with all characters (usually).

I know your reply is going to be "then suck it up!", and again, my dislike of her has no effect on her actual appearance. I'm just saying, if she found her way to being cut, it'd make my smashing experience better

 

[RouffWestie]

You’ve said this before, but honestly, it’s still an inconvienence having a character you don’t like around. Especially if she makes the base roster this time, there’s a character I don’t like that I need to go through all the modes with/earn trophies of, someone that can pop up when I select random, and be constantly appearing online.

It’s a nice sentiment, but it’s not really as simple as “don’t play as them if you don’t like them”.

In addition to these issues, I have to ask, why would I want development time and resources to be spent on a character I don't have any investment in?

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I find it hypocritical of you to complain about the idea of a character getting cut because of her popularity whilst wanting another fan-favourite to be cut. As a Jigglypuff player and for whom Jigglypuff is one of his favourite character, post like yours is why I can never respect the opinions of those who want her cut, mainly because of the obnoxious entitlement that comes with that reasoning, basically boiling down to "Muh deservingness!!!!"

I mean, I wasn't happy about the idea of Bayonetta being in Smash, but you don't see me asking for her removal.

I don't WANT Jigglypuff cut. I never once said I WANT her cut.

I just simply think of all the reps in Pokemon she'd be the most expendable in terms of popularity, relevance to her series, etc. She'd cause some stir, but I doubt it'd be the size of Mewtwo, Lucario, Charizard or Greninja.

There's also the whole thing of she's been low relevance to Sakurai as well before.

I simply said that people would also complain about her being cut because she's one of the original 12. In the very same post you're claiming I'm being hypocritical I'm stating a reason why she wouldn't be a good cut either.

But you know....go off I guess.

And wow this is the second time in two days people have read into my posts. Jesus.

 

[kylexv]

I'm pretty sure Sakurai has said in the past that, if he could, he would not cut anyone, especially since he took time to imagine cool and unique movesets for them. However, that isn't the reality of game development, so Sakurai is forced to cut a few characters from the last game. In my opinion:

will most likely stay

Sakurai would probably fight to keep these guys in, but I feel that they are a little less likely to stay.

 

[Kikkipoptart12]

If Rex will be included in Smash 5, perhaps Sakurai should cut Shulk.
Rex is more popular than Shulk?

Rex is not more popular than Shulk not even close. Most people either hate him, want is blades over him or other characters. I'm not a fan of cutting Shulk just to get him and many Xenoblade fans are like this. They want Shulk and Rex or Just Shulk, not just Rex.

personally I will not buy The game if we get Just Rex and Shulk gets cut.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I don't WANT Jigglypuff cut. I never once said I WANT her cut.

I just simply think of all the reps in Pokemon she'd be the most expendable in terms of popularity, relevance to her series, etc. She'd cause some stir, but I doubt it'd be the size of Mewtwo, Lucario, Charizard or Greninja.

Even by the whole "expendability" argument, Mewtwo would be the most "expendable" by virtue of being a character who was cut in Brawl due to low priority and, despite his fan demand, only managed to return as a DLC character.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I think people really let Snake's cut sort of cloud them on the third parties.

Snake is a really special case in which the company who he is owned by ousted the creator very publicly, became a monster to the point even people who didn't hate Konami, hated Konami, and is just now really respecting an old school mascot of theirs in Bomberman because Bomberman R shocked them by doing well.

Look, Sakurai would not have cut Snake. Sakurai didn't cut Snake. Kojima didn't cut Snake. Konami cut snake.

Capcom, Sega, Square Enix. They are not Konami. All have working relationships with Nintendo and they're not idiots when it comes to the relevance of having a character in Smash Brothers.

At the time of Snake's cut? Konami was a dickheaded idiot. They still kind of are.

 

[Roberto zampari]

You can see by the good side.
Konami released Super Bomberman R.
It's a miracle.

Since when Solid Snake is absent?

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Even by the whole "expendability" argument, Mewtwo would be the most "expendable" by virtue of being a character who was cut in Brawl due to low priority and, despite his fan demand, only managed to return as a DLC character.

Mewtwo was formerly expendable but Sakurai most likely views him different BECAUSE of his prior cut.

Jigglypuff doesn't have that same luxury. She's squeaked in a few times now. She barely made it into Brawl herself.

So by using some mental logic (that could be wrong mind you), Sakurai is probably mindful of the fact now that Mewtwo caused an uproar cutting him, realizes his popularity and has placed him in higher priority.

Now you could wager hype has died down a bit for Lucario, but he's still got a far more sizable franchise fanbase than Jigglypuff does.

Greninja is still pretty fresh. Charizard is still stupidly popular after a bunch of generations passed. Pikachu is the actual mascot.

Jigglypuff is someone who is no longer as popular in the Pokemon fanbase as she was back when she was first conceived for Smash 64 (where she got in because of her similar shape to Kirby after all), and has had low priority for Sakurai ever since.

It's a likelyhood that's real, homeskillet. She's low priority and could get cut in the event of a necessary Pokemon cut. She'd cause the least amount of damage to representing Pokemon's legacy.

The thing that potentially will/would save her is the fact she has that original Smash 64 legacy going for her.

 

[blackghost]

All these anti bayo statements and posts most of the dislike/distaste of bayo can be applied to snake. a character with sleep holds, chokes, uses realistic weapons and has a design easily distinguishable from the rest of the cast. My personal favorite was other "raunchy violent:" characters. she wasn't even the firts to fit this label. i mean have ya'll played a metal gear game???

Everyone is obviously entilted to thier opion but dont list these reasons for bayo to be cut then post how much you like snake and want him back.

i would argue lorewise in a game with gods, aliens, aliens, space hunters, and anime swordsman and more she fits in more than a guy with explosives. she's not going anywhere in nintendo's mind she wona popularity contest and has a new game coming out.

When people bring up the iconic argument they are mostly mistaken it for nostalgia. Iconic is a charatce rthat is easily recognizable and is well known throughout the gaming world. Nintendo has accomplished this from being around a long time (often confusing nintendo purists and those of us blinded by nostalgia) and has blurred the line between which characters are iconic and which are nostalgia. I'd argue bayo is much closer to iconic than most of this form would want to realize.

Her announced sequel was a lot bigger than people seem to remember. At this point she has starred in 2 of the best action hack and slash games ever. nintendo CENTERED a video game show on her 3rd game. And when she won the ballot i dont remember in reaction videos or among my friends people going "wait who's that?" dont confuse the surprisae people felt with no one knowing who she was.

In comparison i didn't know who a large majority of these character people want until these threads popped up. I didn't know who shantae was, nor king k (i was born in 1995), funky kong from mario kart, and many many others. keep in mind the age of these characters and potential players.

 

[SmashChu]

I think people really let Snake's cut sort of cloud them on the third parties.

Snake is a really special case in which the company who he is owned by ousted the creator very publicly, became a monster to the point even people who didn't hate Konami, hated Konami, and is just now really respecting an old school mascot of theirs in Bomberman because Bomberman R shocked them by doing well.

Look, Sakurai would not have cut Snake. Sakurai didn't cut Snake. Kojima didn't cut Snake. Konami cut snake.

Capcom, Sega, Square Enix. They are not Konami. All have working relationships with Nintendo and they're not idiots when it comes to the relevance of having a character in Smash Brothers.

At the time of Snake's cut? Konami was a dickheaded idiot. They still kind of are.

All of the drama within Konami happened long after Smash came out. Smash was in development from around 2012 - 2014. The drama didn't start until about 2015. Kojima was a VP at Konami so this was never an issue.

 

[blackghost]

I don't think Mewtwo is necessarily in a dangerous situation when half of the six FE characters share the same moveset. Aside from being DLC, there's not really much holding him back. He's not a clone character, he's extremely popular, and he's still prominent in the Pokemon games.

Frankly, I'd be surprised if all six Pokemon didn't return. Even with an abundance of characters, its not like the series didn't earn that attention.

all roy fans better brace themselves. i really can't see him staying. i perosnally would like him gone becuase his mechanic is awful. Also his popularity pales in comparison to others. its not even clear if he's popular due to his own games or not.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

All of the drama within Konami happened long after Smash came out. Smash was in development from around 2012 - 2014. The drama didn't start until about 2015. Kojima was a VP at Konami so this was never an issue.

That drama most certainly didn't just appear out of thin air in 2015. As much as that drama was heated? That had been boiling for a while.

It erupted and became public then, but there's no doubt in my mind Konami was being a **** to Kojima long before all of that. After all games stay in development for a long while and we know that it really just came to it's climax at the end of that last Metal Gear game he did for them.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

All of the drama within Konami happened long after Smash came out. Smash was in development from around 2012 - 2014. The drama didn't start until about 2015. Kojima was a VP at Konami so this was never an issue.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there the possibility of the drama merely being public in 2015? Hell, Kojima's expressed frustration about only doing Metal Gear games

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there the possibility of the drama merely being public in 2015? Hell, Kojima's expressed frustration about only doing Metal Gear games

It at least had to have started as early as 2013. Phantom Pain was in development then and in 2014 P.T./Silent Hills was announced . So they were both in development then.

It became public in 2015 because that's when both of those games really came to the public eye then.

But behind the scenes? The drama was going on for at least a portion of Smash 4's production.

It most certainly had a say in Snake's cut. After all Snake was partially added as a favor to Kojima as well and Sakurai doesn't seem the type to place his friend's character on cut lane.

 

[New_Dumal]

I don`t think that the companies wishes are the unique problem with Ryu/Cloud returning.
As someone on this same thread already explained, most of third-parties magic is to represent something that we would not expect. Ryu and Cloud ALREADY were into Smash. All the money/licesing would add more to the hype of a new game with new characters. Think about how hype would be Chrono over Cloud right now. Sora over Cloud.

There's also the FF VII Remake thing.
I honest think that if FE VII (Switch version) be a thing, Cloud will stay. I would go further to say that he staying would count as s good signal for a future FF VII on the Switch.

Because, in the end of the day... they're COMPANIES. Don't try to act as Sakurai makes decision only because of people want this or that. This, unfortunately, is probably the reason why Dk got no third character into Smash4. There are a lot of layers about third-parties into Smash and I will eat my worlds if EVERY third-party returns.