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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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Senselessbreak

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so i wanted to bring up something that hasn't been discussed. what about the stage builder? brawl's stage builder was very creative and gave a lot of options. smash 4's stage builder was atrocious. plus not having to put blocks down was a downgrade. using the wii u gamepad was really flawed. it just didn't feel right. what do you think smash 6's stage builder will be like? do you prefer brawls stage builder, or are you guys a fan of the wii u versions stage builder?
Maybe give us a texture editor so we can make detail non-generic stages as well as using custom photos for the background? I know they might stay away from it because someone might make something dirty, but the solution is just don't let custom stages online. They did that with Miis. And Mario Makers system was amazing, why not take inspiration from that?
 
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SuperSmashStephen

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From what I hear people hate Bayonetta because she isn't iconic in the gaming scene. The likes of Snake, Sonic, PAC-MAN, Mega Man, Ryu, and even Cloud are all gaming legends with legacy and iconicness. Bayonetta on the other hand doesn't really have any of that, and sticks out like a sore thumb. Cloud gets some flack for this to, but not to the same extent.

Not that I dislike her inclusion. Just stating the facts as they are.

I do find it a bit odd that those same people can't piece together that since Bayonetta got in only because she won the ballot, she's the exception and not the rule.
I don’t know if I’d agree with all of that, but I can see why some people may hate her inclusion. She may not have the iconicness of all the aforementioned, but apparently enough people know who she is to vote for her to get her in the game.

Also, I feel a lot of the time people who dislike Bayonetta are the same people who want characters like Shantae, Shovel Knight, or Bomberman in.

Regardless, I don’t think Bayonetta is going anywhere. She won what was basically a popularity contest, and her first to games came to the Switch, with 2 of 3 games being Nintendo exclusive. I’m pretty sure she’ll return.
 

ColietheGoalie

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I didn’t like Bayonetta, not because she’s not iconic enough, but because she stuck out like a sore thumb. I mean, realistic swordsman in the game are one thing, but a British dominatrix with gun stilettos gyrating around next to Mario was just all kinds of cringe.

Hope she’s not back (or optional again), but to be fair, she’s almost first-party now, so I imagine she’ll return.
 

Jubileus57

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From what I hear people hate Bayonetta because she isn't iconic in the gaming scene. The likes of Snake, Sonic, PAC-MAN, Mega Man, Ryu, and even Cloud are all gaming legends with legacy and iconicness. Bayonetta on the other hand doesn't really have any of that, and sticks out like a sore thumb. Cloud gets some flack for this to, but not to the same extent.

Not that I dislike her inclusion. Just stating the facts as they are.

I do find it a bit odd that those same people can't piece together that since Bayonetta got in only because she won the ballot, she's the exception and not the rule.
The thing with Bayonetta is that people compare her to the wrong characters. They seem to judge her solely on her inconicness to Video Games because she is a third party, and sure she isn't the same star as Cloud or Mega-Man.

Instead people should get that her case is far more similar to Shulk's, as the representant of a more niche kind of game that is extremely relevant to Nintendo's present days. Even if she is technically a 3rd party, Nintendo has treated her like one of their own ever since they decided to fund Bayonetta 2. And next to no one questions Shulk's inclusing if I am not wrong.

And that is not even counting the Ballot.
 
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BrytonJ

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I always thought Bayo was a really fun inclusion. I love the ridiculousness of her fighting all these goofy cartoon characters despite being like... you know, the way she is. Same reason I loved Snake being in Brawl it was just so funny throwing realistic grenades at Donkey Kong or whoever. She might be overpowered and not of the same calibre history wise as most of the other characters but she's just so cool and different and she's so near to being a full out Nintendo IP that I really want her brought back for Smash 5.

Oh any I love when the announcer goes "Bayonetta!!!" when you pick her like just way more excited for no reason. That's always really funny to me.
 
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JamesDNaux

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The thing with Bayonetta is that people compare her to the wrong characters. They seem to judge her solely on her inconicness to Video Games because she is a third party, and sure she isn't the same star as Cloud or Mega-Man.

Instead people should get that her case is far more similar to Shulk's, as the representant of a more niche kind of game that is extremely relevant to Nintendo's present days. Even if she is technically a 3rd party, Nintendo has treated her like one of their own ever since they decided to fund Bayonetta 2. And next to no one questions Shulk's inclusing if I am not wrong.

And that is not even counting the Ballot.
No one questions Shulk because he's a Nintendo owned character.

Bayonetta doesn't represent anything nor is she comparable to Shulk, the only reason she's in Smash is because of the ballot.
 

KingBroly

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Bayonetta got in because of 2 reasons:

1 - As said during the Direct it was revealed, it was stated that she was the top character that they could realize to make. She was behind 2 or 3 other characters. Either those characters had licensing issues, or some other kind of problem was associated with them.

2 - Bayonetta fans are pretty die-hard. So I imagine they did a lot of ballot stuffing.

Personally, I don't think she fits in with the Guns shooting Bullets and her whole mystique. It opens up people wanting crap like 'CALL OF DUTY GUY' and 'THE MASTER CHIEF' and other bland stuff that isn't suitable. Saying 'oh, she's a Nintendo character now because Nintendo paid for Bayonetta 2' is a poor, poor answer. It's like saying the Fatal Frame girls are Nintendo characters despite the series originating and still being partially owned by Koei-Tecmo.

So which characters were above her that could not be realized? Well, if I had to guess, Cloud votes were probably thrown out because he made it into the game, as a starter. How much did that impact things? I'm not sure. I would assume the Inklings were number 1 as like the biggest no-brainer ever because JAPAN. But I'm not sure how un-realizable they were in Smash U/3DS. After that? I'd say Ice Climbers because people couldn't take a hint about the whole '3DS screwed them over' thing.
 

Lyndis_

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I didn’t like Bayonetta, not because she’s not iconic enough, but because she stuck out like a sore thumb. I mean, realistic swordsman in the game are one thing, but a British dominatrix with gun stilettos gyrating around next to Mario was just all kinds of cringe.

Hope she’s not back (or optional again), but to be fair, she’s almost first-party now, so I imagine she’ll return.
I have to be honest, I agree.

I generally don't have anything against certain characters or any particular artstyle, but Bayonetta has always felt really out of place to me.

I don't necessarily want her gone because I know a lot of people like her, but she is really mature compared to everything else in the game... a lot moreso than Snake was. Snake was a classical "army dude" with bombs but that's not totally the same as Bayonetta with literal guns in every move, clothes coming off (even censored), and that Final Smash...

But I don't think it matters much since Brawl had literal blood in one scene of the SSE and more edge than Bayonetta could ever hope to be. :psycho:
 
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Jubileus57

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No one questions Shulk because he's a Nintendo owned character.

Bayonetta doesn't represent anything nor is she comparable to Shulk, the only reason she's in Smash is because of the ballot.
To each their own feelings. As for mine, I am pretty sure the fact that Nintendo goes all the way to promote her and invest in her franchise did factor somehow in her inclusion.
 

JamesDNaux

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To each their own feelings. As for mine, I am pretty sure the fact that Nintendo goes all the way to promote her and invest in her franchise did factor somehow in her inclusion.
This has nothing to do with feelings, the ballot is the reason Bayonetta got in Smash and that's the simple truth.

To say Nintendo promoting her had any bearing on her inclusion in Smash would imply the ballot was rigged.
 

Jubileus57

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This has nothing to do with feelings, the ballot is the reason Bayonetta got in Smash and that's the simple truth.

To say Nintendo promoting her had any bearing on her inclusion in Smash would imply the ballot was rigged.
That is a fair point, and truthfully I do believe she really won it. But seeing so many posts on here clamouring that it HAD to be rigged because of [insert popular request here], especially with that "among realizable characters" had messed up my feeble mind a little.

In any case I still do believe that she deserves her spot a lot more than people give her credit for even if it is not the reason she was included, but that is an entirely personal feeling.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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People honestly don't hate Bayonetta. Those who do are dwarfed by those who like her.

People just hate that she's OP.

Nerf her and literally everyone but diehard Nintendo purists would love her.
 

PSIGuy

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I've been seeing a lot of consensus that newest games always win out over older games in Smash representation, even with series that have a game released before planning starts but have another being planned at the same time. Namely, franchises like Pokemon (Gen 7 vs the unrevealed Gen 8), Xenoblade (2 year old Xenoblade X vs Xenoblade 2) and Fire Emblem (Echoes vs the unrevealed FE16). I wanted to raise a question for discussion.

How possible/likely is it that Sakurai treats these cases not as the same franchise but as separate games? In other words, the likelihood of getting a Gen 7/Xenoblade X/Fire Emblem Echoes rep AND a Gen 8/Xenoblade 2/Fire Emblem 16 rep. If both a released game and a game in planning have characters with promising movesets, would be unique in Smash, would be reasonably popular etc could they each get in on their own merit?

We've already seen something similar with Robin in Smash 4 and Corrin as DLC even if that had specific circumstances. Completely disregarding a new game for not being the newest seems like an odd move to me, especially when developing based on still-in-progress concepts has plenty of risks (imagine if they planned a Codename Steam character for Smash). 2 additions to existing franchises has happened before with Kirby in Brawl and plenty of other franchises in 4 if you take clones into account. I thought it was a possibility worth taking into account.
 
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MasterOfKnees

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I didn’t like Bayonetta, not because she’s not iconic enough, but because she stuck out like a sore thumb. I mean, realistic swordsman in the game are one thing, but a British dominatrix with gun stilettos gyrating around next to Mario was just all kinds of cringe.

Hope she’s not back (or optional again), but to be fair, she’s almost first-party now, so I imagine she’ll return.
This is pretty much how I feel too, I thought it worked so much better with Snake as they played on how much he didn't fit in via SSE and his codexes, plus he just has a more fun personality to put into these situations, it made him a great addition.

With Bayonetta they just expect us to accept her despite how much she sticks out, I get that it's a non issue for a lot of people, but for those of us where it isn't she's such a glaring addition. Of course it doesn't help that she's by far the most played character either, and having to pay for the best character in the game always leaves a sour taste in my mouth, but even before that her inclusion just didn't click with me.
 
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Superyoshiom

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I don’t know if I’d agree with all of that, but I can see why some people may hate her inclusion. She may not have the iconicness of all the aforementioned, but apparently enough people know who she is to vote for her to get her in the game.

Also, I feel a lot of the time people who dislike Bayonetta are the same people who want characters like Shantae, Shovel Knight, or Bomberman in.

Regardless, I don’t think Bayonetta is going anywhere. She won what was basically a popularity contest, and her first to games came to the Switch, with 2 of 3 games being Nintendo exclusive. I’m pretty sure she’ll return.
I've had a lot of problems with Bayonetta being in Smash, but after doing some thinking, I don't really mind her return. As it stands, her games are synonymous with Nintendo consoles, and come Smash 6 or something like that she'll have some legacy to her, especially if Nintendo buys the IP.

Bayonetta got in because of 2 reasons:
It's like saying the Fatal Frame girls are Nintendo characters despite the series originating and still being partially owned by Koei-Tecmo.
Why on earth am I more okay with seeing the fatal frame girls in the game over Bayonetta?
 
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Guybrush20X6

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I'm wondering, what if the "non-realisable" characters above Bayo weren't 3rd parties with licencing issues or Goku but instead Nintendo characters that were already assist trophies and the like? Perhaps if 9 Waluigis appear on a screen the apocalypse is triggered...

And before anyone says, "Mewtwo and Lucas got in despite being trophies", trophies don't effect anything gameplay wise.
 

Jubileus57

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On a totally unrelated note I hope they will manage to fix the latency issue on the online. I've been trying many times to get better by facin real people only to have every input (be it the attacks, the ddges or counter Toad) screwed. I'm not sure how to learn to play with facing only level 9 computer players.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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On a totally unrelated note I hope they will manage to fix the latency issue on the online. I've been trying many times to get better by facin real people only to have every input (be it the attacks, the ddges or counter Toad) screwed. I'm not sure how to learn to play with facing only level 9 computer players.
Level 9 CPUs read your inputs iirc, they aren't good practice
 

dezeray112

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Honestly, I think Xenoblade could have 3 characters if they really felt like it. One character per game, just like Kid Icarus.

(I doubt it would happen, just saying it's possible)
Personally I'm expecting another new rep from the Xenoblade series and I feel that Rex (& Pyra) are the most likely candidates.

If there were an additional third rep from Xenoblade, then I wouldn't mind either Malos (Xenoblade 2) or Elma (Xenoblade Chronicles X) to take the spot.
 

Cutie Gwen

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I know... But since I don't have any friends that really are into Smash nearby, it is either that (along with the training grounds) or the online... Unless level 8 CPU can't read inputs?
8 is still fair. Reading inputs mean they know what you're doing as soon as your hands hit the buttons, it can make you end up making bad habits
 

BluePikmin11

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If there is a second ballot, I hope that Sakurai just does not go for the most realizable, I want him to go beyond the boundaries of picking choices that are easy to negotiate with Japanese developers. Not beyond the boundaries of anime characters, but a boundary to which the top Western third parties and indies can be chosen for the ballot. To me, Bayonetta was always a special flower to me that got in because I always thought her unique potential was so immensely high, that her doing so well in post-Smash 4 polls was a surefire for me that she would be in. That is why I have had this gut feeling and confidence that Bayonetta would be in ever since the ballot was announced for Smash 4 DLC.

I like to think that the next ballot choice will likely be a character with the most interesting gameplay potential that ranks top in many regions, but if the next choice comes, I hope he gives Western characters a look and researches these choices to a substantial extent. As bold as it is for me to say, seeing a Japanese third party get in as the ballot candidate would be disappointing. I might understand if gameplay potential is there, but it will come off as safe-play for me.

In the case that a Western third-party ranks high with great gameplay potential, the company better be hella ready to negotiate with Sakurai with open arms.
 
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True Blue Warrior

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People honestly don't hate Bayonetta. Those who do are dwarfed by those who like her.

People just hate that she's OP.

Nerf her and literally everyone but diehard Nintendo purists would love her.
I'd be nice if you didn't generalise anyone who didn't care for her as a Nintendo purist. I personally never cared for the idea of her being Smash but had no real problem with Cloud. Of course, given she was the ballot choice, I had to accept she's in instead of throwing a tantrum, since she's just a video game character.

I've been seeing a lot of consensus that newest games always win out over older games in Smash representation, even with series that have a game released before planning starts but have another being planned at the same time. Namely, franchises like Pokemon (Gen 7 vs the unrevealed Gen 8), Xenoblade (2 year old Xenoblade X vs Xenoblade 2) and Fire Emblem (Echoes vs the unrevealed FE16). I wanted to raise a questiion for discussion.
Echoes was released ~one year after planning would have most likely started and ~ one year before Smash Switch is set to release. In that regards, in terms of FE, Echoes has the most favorable timing for Smash Switch, similar to X and Y in Smash 4 in terms of Pokemon games. There is also the fact that the two main characters of the Gaiden remake were already known quantities as opposed to Greninja who Sakurai only had a concept art to really work with whilst Greninja's name wasn't even decided on.
 
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Opossum

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Echoes was released ~one year after planning would have most likely started and ~ one year before Smash Switch is set to release. In that regards, in terms of FE, Echoes has the most favorable timing for Smash Switch, similar to X and Y in Smash 4 in terms of Pokemon games. There is also the fact that the two main characters of the Gaiden remake were already known quantities as opposed to Greninja who Sakurai only had a concept art to really work with whilst Greninja's name wasn't even decided on.
Not to mention, it started work in 2015, so by 2016 they almost definitely had lots of resources they could show Sakurai.
 

Cosmic77

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I didn’t like Bayonetta, not because she’s not iconic enough, but because she stuck out like a sore thumb. I mean, realistic swordsman in the game are one thing, but a British dominatrix with gun stilettos gyrating around next to Mario was just all kinds of cringe.

Hope she’s not back (or optional again), but to be fair, she’s almost first-party now, so I imagine she’ll return.
I'm glad someone brought this up, because I kinda feel the same way.


It's not so much that she's niche or looks realistic as much as it is the fact that she's a really violent and raunchy character. There's a nice mix of cartoony and realistic characters in Smash, but whatever realistic characters we have are very tame. Bayo is just...not tame at all, especially when you compare her to completely innocent characters like Kirby or Pikachu. There's so much inappropriate innuendo in her moveset (not to mention her terrifying Final Smash which has probably traumatized more than a few 6 year-olds) that it's hard to believe you're still playing a game designed for both young kids and teens alike.

I don't particularly care for the Bayo series, so seeing her get cut wouldn't bother me. However, if she does end up staying, I hope she won't be a gateway for even raunchier or more violent characters.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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I always wondered why they didn’t go for keyframes instead of button inputs for the AI.
Probably because the key to making a skilled AI is having it read your button inputs. A good portion of cheap fighting game bosses (such as Mortal Kombat's Shao Kahn) have been known to do that, so it really isn't anything new.
 

RosiePeaches

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Probably because the key to making a skilled AI is having it read your button inputs. A good portion of cheap fighting game bosses (such as Mortal Kombat's Shao Kahn) have been known to do that, so it really isn't anything new.
I know, but it is a terrible idea because it promotes cheap AI. Real life humans don't react to your button presses, they react to your character's actions. Also, I find that it makes combat against them boring because they don't really try to string combos or use safe moves and a finisher to try and kill you. Look at Bayonetta's AI for example. It cannot really kill using Witch Time.

Oh, and it is hilarious that the AI spam projectiles in Training Mode.
 
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Stratos

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I wonder if will released the 8th generation Pokémon will be released so we can see its a stage in the Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo Switch?
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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I know, but it is a terrible idea because it promotes cheap AI. Real life humans don't react to your button presses, they react to your character's actions. Also, I find that it makes combat against them boring because they don't really try to string combos or use safe moves and a finisher to try and kill you. Look at Bayonetta's AI for example. It cannot really kill using Witch Time.

Oh, and it is hilarious that the AI spam projectiles in Training Mode.
It's already bad enough knowing that even the easiest AI has the tendency to air dodge against just about every Final Smash, and it'll even dodge Wild Gunman as if it knows it's within attack range.
 

Knight Dude

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Someone mentioned Wave Race not too long ago right? I don't see too much in terms of a fighter or anything, but a stage based on it would be pretty cool, and I'm sure there's some good music to along with it too.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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Not to generalize, because I do hate to do that, but seeing the discussion about Bayonetta kinda makes it seem that people are making excuses as to why she should be cut instead of just saying, “I don’t like her”.

I doubt she’ll be cut, and I think her gameplay makes her fun. She needs to be somehow nerfed though, for sure.

Again, if you don’t like a character, don’t take them away from those who like the character. Just use that character as a punching bag.
 

True Blue Warrior

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Not to mention, it started work in 2015, so by 2016 they almost definitely had lots of resources they could show Sakurai.
Really? Well that's notable.

On a slightly different topic, what if the only reason a Pokemon X and Y newcomer got a slot reserved for it, despite the fact it was set to release a year later than when the roster was decided on and Sakurai only had references to work for what was at the time unknown Pokemon characters, was because of how huge Pokemon is?
 

The Original Robot boy

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Indie stages would be cool like have one of Shovel Knights Stages, and if were talking about a possible second ballot even he agreed to it he probably would want something unique and that can work at the same time.
 

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Well, in terms of gameplay, each game introduced a major element to each characters movepool, in one way or another. Melee gave everyone 4 specials, Brawl added the Smash ball, and Smash 4 had the custom moves. Do any of you guys think they'll add any new moves to the characters' tool set this time around? I would think, even if it was a port of some kind/extremely based on Smash 4 they'd likely add a new gameplay mechanic to make the game standout.

Personally, what I'd want is maybe a fifth special move mapped to A+B, since there's already so many ways to use Smash attacks. It isn't as flashy, sure, but it does offer the potential of characters getting more tools at their disposal.
 

Deathcarter

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I don't have anything against Bayonetta but if it were up to me she'd probably be the first non-clone character on the chopping block. Nothing to do with her "not fitting in" or being OP, I just feel its a waste to prioritize bringing back a 3rd party with limited appeal among the Nintendo faithful and zero drawing power amongst casuals unless Sakurai somehow manages zero 1st party cuts in the transition to the Switch.
 

ShizChiz

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I would actually be all for this roster. Would you consider Isaac a "retro" character at this point? EDIT: How did you design this? It is really polished!
Hmm, I wouldn't necessarily consider him retro despite the fact its been 17 years since the series was introduced. To me, it's gotta be a Famicom/NES or Gameboy series that didn't make it out of that era (though if you want to get technical, the Excite series does have two entries after, so that can be debated). That being said, I am all for Isaac. He's got a great potential moveset that can be unique from the other sword fighters, & the more series reps, the better!

And thanks! I spent some time making it in photoshop. I just grabbed one of the roster squares, Content Aware'd the character away, fit the new characters in, and used Helvetica/Coolvetica font on top. Rinse-repeat steps 3 & 4.
 

Cosmic77

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Well, in terms of gameplay, each game introduced a major element to each characters movepool, in one way or another. Melee gave everyone 4 specials, Brawl added the Smash ball, and Smash 4 had the custom moves. Do any of you guys think they'll add any new moves to the characters' tool set this time around? I would think, even if it was a port of some kind/extremely based on Smash 4 they'd likely add a new gameplay mechanic to make the game standout.

Personally, what I'd want is maybe a fifth special move mapped to A+B, since there's already so many ways to use Smash attacks. It isn't as flashy, sure, but it does offer the potential of characters getting more tools at their disposal.
If we do get some type of new gameplay mechanic, I don't think it would be something as major as a fifth special move, especially since we're probably getting over 60 characters in this game. Imagine not only coming up with 60+ special moves for the characters, but also rebalancing every character so that the extra move doesn't make the character OP as heck (imagine how terrible it would be to fight Rosalina if she had a new shooting projectile move aside from Luma Shot).

I don't have anything against Bayonetta but if it were up to me she'd probably be the first non-clone character on the chopping block. Nothing to do with her "not fitting in" or being OP, I just feel its a waste to prioritize bringing back a 3rd party with limited appeal among the Nintendo faithful and zero drawing power amongst casuals unless Sakurai somehow manages zero 1st party cuts in the transition to the Switch.
I'm not really sure how much of a priority Bayo would be. People always bring up the fact that she's "basically a Nintendo character now," but that argument applies to practically everyone on the roster doesn't it?

Even though she's easily the least iconic third-party character, I will say that Nintendo probably has more to gain by keeping Bayo than they would if they kept a different third-party character. After all, her games have become Nintendo exclusives now.
 
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