Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Morbi]

You say Bayonetta doesn't have huge popularity with the Nintendo faithful...

But we have direct evidence that she does with the ballot.

First of all, that is only if you believe that it was not rigged. There is no evidence one way or the other. However, even taking their word for it, he specifically stated "Nintendo faithfuls." I did not see her ass being discussed whatsoever anywhere, I saw one video where Roger'sBase, I believe, put her in a dream category. It was casuals who voted for her, not Nintendo faithful.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

That addresses my point... How?

People assume Bayonetta can't be extremely popular because she's newer. That's one of the main reasons I see against her as well.

But it is neither here nor there when it comes to your point.

Bayonetta is relevant to Nintendo and popular in it's fanbase. We've both already established that in posts.

 

[Chiroz]

First of all, that is only if you believe that it was not rigged. There is no evidence one way or the other. However, even taking their word for it, he specifically stated "Nintendo faithfuls." I did not see her *** being discussed whatsoever anywhere, I saw one video where Roger'sBase, I believe, put her in a dream category. It was casuals who voted for her, not Nintendo faithful.

Are casuals that watch Nintendo Directs and go to Nintendo websites on a regular basis not in fact faithful to Nintendo?

 

[FlareHabanero]

Are casuals that watch Nintendo Directs and go to Nintendo websites not in fact faithful to Nintendo?

It's safe to assume that if you're watching a Nintendo Direct, you care about the company to some extent.

You don't necessarily need to be a mega fan to care about the possibility of new games being announced or existing ones being further elaborated on.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

First of all, that is only if you believe that it was not rigged. There is no evidence one way or the other. However, even taking their word for it, he specifically stated "Nintendo faithfuls." I did not see her *** being discussed whatsoever anywhere, I saw one video where Roger'sBase, I believe, put her in a dream category. It was casuals who voted for her, not Nintendo faithful.

To believe it is rigged is nothing more than a conspiracy theory.

If you took the time to look beyond your limited view point. You'd know a few things.

One? Bayonetta was typically a character Sakura wouldn't consider. She was a very overtly sexual character in a game focused around guns. Even her die hards thought that despite her deep connections to Nintendo thanks to Bayo 2. She'd be overlooked.

I thought she might make it in, but did see that perhaps even with how silly her guns are Sakurai might not consider her.

People often don't discuss things they think are impossible, however if you go back to before Smash 4 release. Bayonetta ALWAYS had a support thread right here on this very forum. She was also a presence in discussion. She was just considered unlikely because of the nature of her games.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

First of all, that is only if you believe that it was not rigged. There is no evidence one way or the other. However, even taking their word for it, he specifically stated "Nintendo faithfuls." I did not see her *** being discussed whatsoever anywhere, I saw one video where Roger'sBase, I believe, put her in a dream category. It was casuals who voted for her, not Nintendo faithful.

Casuals?

Well then that's an even bigger demographic.

Also, of the ballot was indeed rigged... Do you think they would put an actual unpopular character?

 

[Morbi]

Tracer is a really good example.

I'd also wager and argue that Genji and Mercy are other good examples that Overwatch provides. They're not the mascot, but a lot of people KNOW of them as well.

If you include them, you almost have to include D.Va. Actually, more so than the other two, if you ask me. She has among the highest pick-rate across all levels of play and... Excessive amounts of... Fan-art.

Are casuals that watch Nintendo Directs and go to Nintendo websites on a regular basis not in fact faithful to Nintendo?

That is stretching the definition, fam. Sure, but that is not really what I am talking about. I am just arguing that she means nothing to the hardcore Nintendo fan-base. She never really had a campaign and she was left field to anyone that knew what they were talking about. WatchMojo was closer to hitting the mark.

 

[Fenriraga]

Are we SERIOUSLY trying to pull the "rigged ballot" card again?

Seriously, even if Bayo wasn't the number 1 overall pick as Sakurai claimed, the hell does it matter? This wasn't a vote for presidency, this was a vote for a video game character. No one ever said the number 1 overall most voted character was going to make it into Smash. Or the number 2, or the number 10. The ballots were suggestions, nothing more.

Nothing here was rigged. You all just had incorrect perception on what this ballot set out to accomplish.

 

[Chiroz]

There's something about the ballot I find funny.

I think they should have reversed Bayo and Cloud's release date and just stated that Cloud won. I am very certain that no one would doubt that Cloud could win the ballot.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I was one of the very few who called Bayonetta as a possible fighter for base game. And even I thought it was a long shot. Snake might have been from a Rated M game, but Bayonetta takes her M rating to a different place. Even with Nintendo supporting that place I thought it might be too much of a stretch.

But Swamp Sensei alone can tell you I was championing for Bayonetta before the DLC was even a thought.

One of my first posts after her reveal was ''Some of ya'll owe me some apologies."

 

[A Distant Demon]

Any belief that the ballot was "rigged" and that Bayo wasn't immensely popular in the ballot is silly. I still don't like Bayo, but the belief that she cheated her way in to replacing people's favorites gets more annoying by the day.

There is no evidence it was rigged.

And the Burden of Proof absolutely lies with the conspiracy theory camp.

 

[Morbi]

Casuals?

Well then that's an even bigger demographic.

Also, of the ballot was indeed rigged... Do you think they would put an actual unpopular character?

I have been over this, yes, they had GREAT incentive to do so. First of all, I doubt she was unpopular, per se. She was not overall number 1 though. I will NEVER be convinced of that without seeing the document myself. It makes no logical sense on any front. I digress, back to the point, see Bayonetta 3? See how everyone alludes to her as "an adopted Nintendo character?" Remember when people were saying that Bayonetta 2 was the best game on the Wii U? Setting her up as the ballot winner was necessary because people would not have been as accepting otherwise and I can guarantee you if she was not the winner, everyone would be requesting third-rate third-party characters RIGHT now. Well, even more so than usual.

 

[Superyoshiom]

Bayonetta got in because of 2 reasons:
It's like saying the Fatal Frame girls are Nintendo characters despite the series originating and still being partially owned by Koei-Tecmo.

Why on earth am I more okay with seeing the fatal frame girls in the game over Bayonetta? For some reason I don't have a problem when people ask for 2b

I'm glad someone brought this up, because I kinda feel the same way.


It's not so much that she's niche or looks realistic as much as it is the fact that she's a really violent and raunchy character. There's a nice mix of cartoony and realistic characters in Smash, but whatever realistic characters we have are very tame. Bayo is just...not tame at all, especially when you compare her to completely innocent characters like Kirby or Pikachu. There's so much inappropriate innuendo in her moveset (not to mention her terrifying Final Smash which has probably traumatized more than a few 6 year-olds) that it's hard to believe you're still playing a game designed for both young kids and teens alike.

I don't particularly care for the Bayo series, so seeing her get cut wouldn't bother me. However, if she does end up staying, I hope she won't be a gateway for even raunchier or more violent characters.

I agree with your argument, but what about Snake?

 

[Fenriraga]

That is stretching the definition, fam. Sure, but that is not really what I am talking about. I am just arguing that she means nothing to the hardcore Nintendo fan-base. She never really had a campaign and she was left field to anyone that knew what they were talking about. WatchMojo was closer to hitting the mark.

Where the actual hell are you getting literally any of this?

Nintendo pushed Bayo 2 HEAVILY when it was confirmed as a Wii U exclusive. Many Nintendo fans were excited by the idea, or at least interested in it. She is LITERALLY almost as much of an character as someone like Sonic these days. Even moreso, I'd say.

I dunno what warped perception you have to think Bayo means nothing to the Hardcore Nintendo fanbase, because never have I seen anything supporting that. Stop making baseless claims if you really want to try and make a point. Or at least provide evidence.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

If there is one unrealisable Nintendo character I think could've had more votes than Bayonetta, I would say maybe the Ice Climbers.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Also. For the 100th time. Even though Bayo wasn't popular here, she was immensely popular on Tumblr (which is 4,000 times biggger than here alone) and places like neoGAF, which is also immensely huge compared to this tiny spec. People who say she isn't/wasn't popular are saying that because of the echo chamber effect.

 

[Pakky]

Honestly, I think Bayo was planned for the game already and her model is shared with Zero Suit Samus. The heels are from nothing, I personally like them and think their dope, but yeah.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Everytime I see this stupid argument that she wasn't overall number 1. I want to ask who they think it actually was.

 

[Superyoshiom]

Not that my post is meant to have anything to do with Bayonetta's chance of coming back, but almost any character cut will receive huge backlash.

Dr. Mario would not cause that much backlash from getting cut. I can easily see other clones like Lucina and semi-clones like Roy causing an eruption from getting cut though.

 

[Morbi]

Are we SERIOUSLY trying to pull the "rigged ballot" card again?

Seriously, even if Bayo wasn't the number 1 overall pick as Sakurai claimed, the hell does it matter? This wasn't a vote for presidency, this was a vote for a video game character. No one ever said the number 1 overall most voted character was going to make it into Smash. Or the number 2, or the number 10. The ballots were suggestions, nothing more.

Nothing here was rigged. You all just had incorrect perception on what this ballot set out to accomplish.

I am one person, there is no "we." My thoughts are my own and I could care less that you find it silly. I find anyone who believes she was overall number one to be grossly incompetent and unable to think for themselves, but hey that is just, like, my opinion.

Any belief that the ballot was "rigged" and that Bayo wasn't immensely popular in the ballot is silly. I still don't like Bayo, but the belief that she cheated her way in to replacing people's favorites gets more annoying by the day.

There is no evidence it was rigged.

And the Burden of Proof absolutely lies with the conspiracy theory camp.

Nice try, I love Bayonetta, she is my second favorite addition from the series. This thought has nothing to do with my appreciation of the character. I do not care about burden of proof seeing as it does not exist one way or the other. I am just sharing my thoughts.

I was one of the very few who called Bayonetta as a possible fighter for base game. And even I thought it was a long shot. Snake might have been from a Rated M game, but Bayonetta takes her M rating to a different place. Even with Nintendo supporting that place I thought it might be too much of a stretch.

But Swamp Sensei alone can tell you I was championing for Bayonetta before the DLC was even a thought.

One of my first posts after her reveal was ''Some of ya'll owe me some apologies."

Nice. There were definitely a few people. Not really the amount that would sweep a fan-poll that had character's ten times her popularity such as... Um Dante. Anything going for Bayonetta would have also applied to Mr. Cross-Over outside of his sex appeal. I already stated it once, but if she did legit win, it was only kids trolling because she gets naked and Nintendo was asking for feasible characters.

 

[FlareHabanero]

If the Smash Ballot was called something else like "Smash Suggestion" or whatever, it would of better conveyed that it was a suggestion box instead of a campaign. Because the "ballot" moniker gave people the wrong impression that it was a competition, when it never gave off that impression to begin with.

I'll bet people would be a lot less upset if it was treated as a suggestion box.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Also. For the 100th time. Even though Bayo wasn't popular here, she was immensely popular on Tumblr (which is 4,000 times biggger than here alone) and places like neoGAF, which is also immensely huge compared to this tiny spec. People who say she isn't/wasn't popular are saying that because of the echo chamber effect.

Also lol, Bayonetta is huge with the LGBT fanbase in gaming. Gay men and women who game LOVE the Bayonetta franchise.

If you give us a cool ass cookie. And ask us to vote for which cookie is best and we'd like to see in more games? You damn well bet we gonna get our gay ass to the polls and vote.

 

[Superyoshiom]

Everytime I see this stupid argument that she wasn't overall number 1. I want to ask who they think it actually was.

It sure as heck wasn't King K. Rool or Ridley. To be quite frank, she was an unrealistic character who Sakurai wouldn't have normally picked, but when your main competition is Goku and Shrek, you're a shoo-in. I'm just thankful Steve from Minecraft wasn't the ballot winner.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

If you seriously think Bayonetta got in because of trolls who like she gets naked. Try again.

It's almost like you know nothing about Bayonetta and her fanbase at all.

 

[Pakky]

Everytime I see this stupid argument that she wasn't overall number 1. I want to ask who they think it actually was.

Honestly?

Inklings

A starter pokemon

King K Rool (Any DK character really)

Bomber man

Rayman

Ridely (Even though he was a boss in that game)

I love Bayo I have multiple copies of 1 and 2 but even I don't think she got number one.

 

[Morbi]

Everytime I see this stupid argument that she wasn't overall number 1. I want to ask who they think it actually was.

It does not matter who was number one. It was not her, that is my only point. If I were a casual, I would have voted for Wolf, or Snake. Two characters that are already in the game. That is why about half the DLC we got were preexisting characters. Beyond that, I would go for notable Nintendo characters, Banjo and Kazooie being the most obvious and once you follow that path, Master Chief, as he is probably larger than Cloud. The ballot took place mostly before that, however, so I imagine a lot of Ridley and King K. Rool were also on there, or even miscellaneous Mario characters.

Rayman would make a lot of sense given the trophy and his hype back then was vast thanks to ArtsyOmni. Any number of characters could have been number one. And yet, we got the female version of Dante that Nintendo recently acquired exclusive rights to publish.

If you seriously think Bayonetta got in because of trolls who like she gets naked. Try again.

It's almost like you know nothing about Bayonetta and her fanbase at all.

I never stated that was the reason. I stated that if her numbers were actually higher than real gaming icons, that probably contributed to it.

I already stated that I enjoy the series. Trust me. I am inferring what other people might believe because her fan-base was definitely not the reason she got in if she was number 1. She needed a lot of extra help.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Dr. Mario would not cause that much backlash from getting cut. I can easily see other clones like Lucina and semi-clones like Roy causing an eruption from getting cut though.

Hence why I said almost. Of the 5 Brawl cuts, the only ones that sparked a huge backlash was Mewtwo and Roy.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Lol Bayonetta isn’t a bad pick because, “think of the children”.

If you think children are going to be scared from a woman using particular moves or her final smash, get real. Kids will be more, “YO A DEMON DRAGON” than, “ermagherd, it ate them”. It’s from the source game.

There’s that, and then theres Snake, a favorite of mine, using actual military grade weaponry.

Also, what’s wrong with a woman expressing her sexuality? If she wants to do a dance that doesn’t show any sort of part of her body, who cares? Does that suddenly mean 6 year olds are going to be freaked out by sexuality?

That’s incredibly silly.

 

[Superyoshiom]

If you seriously think Bayonetta got in because of trolls who like she gets naked. Try again.

It's almost like you know nothing about Bayonetta and her fanbase at all.

As much as I feel she doesn't fit the Smash mold, it's very easy to believe why she won. The ballot was voted on heavily by Nintendo fans, the key word being "Nintendo fans", not Smash fan. Smash fans wanted stuff like K. Rool and Dixie Kong, but Nintendo fans at the time were into the latest thing, which at the time was Bayonetta. Casuals also voted more than Smash fans, but they voted for stuff like Goku, Shrek, and Minecraft stuff, which meant that the only realizable winner was Bayonetta.

Think about it, who else could have won?

 

[Deathcarter]

You say Bayonetta doesn't have huge popularity with the Nintendo faithful...

But we have direct evidence that she does with the ballot.

Mewtwo, Greninja, and Rosalina who I outlined are some of the most popular and visible characters from two franchises that are several magnitudes bigger and more successful than Bayonetta's even only considering the prior two generations. She simply doesn't have the type of profile that Sonic has which is why I can't consider her a surefire return. There's no precedence to figure out how Sakurai plans on handling 3rd party veterans like her.

Ignoring all that mumbo jumbo about that ballot.

Bayonetta is practically second party. Her franchise is around because Nintendo saved it and they have faith in her. When they did women's month advertising, Bayonetta was thrown in with their own female characters.

So yeah she does rep a franchise close to Nintendo like Villager, WFT, Shulk, Duck Hunt and Little Mac.

Bayonetta is insanely popular among casuals and the Nintendo faithful. Ironically since I run in the Rosalina fanbase as well, 8 times out of 10? A Rosie fan is a Bayonetta fan.

The Japanese thing isn't neither here nor there.

Neither is the pet character of Sakurai's thing.

Everything is a license to print money. That's literally the only reason ANY fictional character exists in anything.

At the bolded, how do we know that Sakurai had any knowledge of Bayonetta's future back in mid-2016? Hell how do we know that Nintendo had any concrete plans for the direction of the franchise back in mid-2016? For all anyone knows, Sakurai could have simply considered Bayonetta on the Wii U as a one time thing like everybody else did and didn't bother to renegotiate for her as a result.

That being said, she's definitely coming back eventually. Just not necessarily as part of the base roster.

 

[Fenriraga]

I am one person, there is no "we." My thoughts are my own and I could care less that you find it silly. I find anyone who believes she was overall number one to be grossly incompetent and unable to think for themselves, but hey that is just, like, my opinion.


Nice try, I love Bayonetta, she is my second favorite addition from the series. This thought has nothing to do with my appreciation of the character. I do not care about burden of proof seeing as it does not exist one way or the other. I am just sharing my thoughts.


Nice. There were definitely a few people. Not really the amount that would sweep a fan-poll that had character's ten times her popularity such as... Um Dante. Anything going for Bayonetta would have also applied to Mr. Cross-Over outside of his sex appeal. I already stated it once, but if she did legit win, it was only kids trolling because she gets naked and Nintendo was asking for feasible characters.

You're using the opinion card completely incorrectly here.

An opinion implies that there is any validity to another side of an argument.

Saying Bayonetta means nothing to the Hardcore Nintendo fanbase is not an "opinion". "I don't like Bayonetta" or "Bayonetta doesn't belong with Nintendo" are opinions.

You can't have an opinion on what you think other people think as a whole. That's not how it works. She either does, or she doesn't mean anything to the hardcores. And guess what, evidence shows she does.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Honestly?

Inklings

King K Rool

Bomber man

Rayman

Ridely (Even though he was a boss in that game)

I love Bayo I have multiple copies of 1 and 2 but even I don't think she got number one.

Inklings are valid. But I can see that they might have been too fresh and Sakurai hadn't had the time to really study them and formulate his desired moveset. They were just blowing up at the time of the ballot.

K. Rool is a dead villain not used in his franchise anymore. Also outside of Nintendo die-hards I doubt many casuals know his name.

Bomberman's franchise was dead at the time and Konami was a giant ******** at the time. Casuals most likely knew him but had forgotten about him until Bomberman R on Switch's release.

Ridley is valid for Nintendo faithfuls, but also had already been equalled to ''Just give up fam." status. So a large chunk of his fanbase probably had given up and casuals don't know who Ridley is.

None of these most likely really beat her in the votes. If anyone did it was Inklings and they were probably tacked under ''realizable".

 

[Superyoshiom]

Hence why I said almost. Of the 5 Brawl cuts, the only ones that sparked a huge backlash was Mewtwo and Roy.

I'll never understand the hype over Roy. I don't mind the character (certainly more welcome than Lucina, even though she's my favorite FE character), but the hype over a melee clone is unreal. Mewtwo is one of the most popular Pokemon of all time and had an original moveset, which makes the rage over his cut understandable.

My best guess is the old-school FE fans wanted him in addition to the melee fans (though Roy was low-tier in that game)

 

[Morbi]

Where the actual hell are you getting literally any of this?

Nintendo pushed Bayo 2 HEAVILY when it was confirmed as a Wii U exclusive. Many Nintendo fans were excited by the idea, or at least interested in it. She is LITERALLY almost as much of an character as someone like Sonic these days. Even moreso, I'd say.

I dunno what warped perception you have to think Bayo means nothing to the Hardcore Nintendo fanbase, because never have I seen anything supporting that. Stop making baseless claims if you really want to try and make a point. Or at least provide evidence.

Eh, normally I do not respond to strawman; however, since I am responding to half a dozen people anyway, why not?

Precisely, they were pushing her quite heavily. That is the basis of my point. Okay, here is the thing, who voted for Goku? Not Nintendo loyalists... Because Sakurai confirmed it would not happen. And yet, people voted for the sex queen? Ha ha ha... Good one.

If you cannot understand where I am coming from after reading all of my posts, you are the problem. Not me. Never stated you had to agree. Alternate theories are great for the mind. If you are not willing to humor it, why even bother responding? Just to call me delusional. Thanks fam, next time, just cut to the chase, Papi.

There IS NO EVIDENCE. Why don't you? Because it does not exist. Jesus... People these days.

 

[Pakky]

K. Rool is a dead villain not used in his franchise anymore. Also outside of Nintendo die-hards I doubt many casuals know his name.

Yet he's a costume in smash like the Inklings and people would vote for him, hence probably why he was chosen to be a costume and not say Dixie or Cranky. Who mind you were in a recently released game.

 

[A Distant Demon]

I do not care about burden of proof seeing as it does not exist one way or the other.

. . .that isn't how this works. You're making a claim with no evidence.

If I were a casual.

You aren't, so any "well if I was" is invalid because you obviously dont have the same mindset.

Beyond that, I would go for notable Nintendo characters, Banjo and Kazooie being the most obvious and once you follow that path, Master Chief, as he is probably larger than Cloud. The ballot took place mostly before that, however, so I imagine a lot of Ridley and King K. Rool were also on there, or even miscellaneous Mario characters.

Casuals probably dont even care for BK since he hasn't had a nintendo game since most casuals were born. Same for K rool.

Ridley probably isn't a casual darling either (i would assume casuals agree with the too big thing, in part because memes. Even then I dont think casuals would care for a random Metroid character)

Master Chief I could maaaaaaybe give, but that would definitely fit under not realizable



TBH I think the fact that you are choosing hardcore darlings is just proof how little people actually know about what casuals want lol

 

[Ghirahilda]

I thought it was pretty clear that she did not win the ballot. She was the most voted ONLY IN EUROPE if I remind correctly

Also, with that in mind
For who you guys did vote in the ballot?
I voted for Paper Mario

 

[Superyoshiom]

Precisely, they were pushing her quite heavily. That is the basis of my point. Okay, here is the thing, who voted for Goku? Not Nintendo loyalists... Because Sakurai confirmed it would not happen. And yet, people voted for the sex queen? Ha ha ha... Good one[./QUOTE]
She won in Europe, the most anti-Nintendo territory out there. I'm genuinely curious to see who won in NA and Japan.

 

[FlareHabanero]

"Casuals don't know this character" arguments fail considering that outside of gaming circles, 90% of the characters on the roster are unfamiliar with general audiances to begin with.

You'd be surprised by the amount of people that aren't familiar with characters like Link and Samus.

 

[GaroMaster]

Honestly?

Inklings

A starter pokemon

King K Rool (Any DK character really)

Bomber man

Rayman

Ridely (Even though he was a boss in that game)

I love Bayo I have multiple copies of 1 and 2 but even I don't think she got number one.

Of these five, I think Inklings make the most sense given that they had a new game coming out during the Ballot era, but they probably did not make it since the ink effects would've been too taxing on the 3DS hardware.
As much as I would say K. Rool and Ridley, I don't think the average person would vote for either of them since at the time, they did not have any new games for quite some time.
Bomberman would not have got the most votes just based on the fact that he had "competition" with Snake, but the average person does not vote for a company to be represented, so maybe?
As somebody who loves Rayman, he would not have won the Ballot just based on the sole fact that he lacks popularity in Japan unless there was massive outcry from the West.
Out of all these, the Inklings seem to be the most plausible "winner," but I am not putting on my tin-foil hat.