Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Swamp Sensei]

Lol Bayonetta isn’t a bad pick because, “think of the children”.

If you think children are going to be scared from a woman using particular moves or her final smash, get real. Kids will be more, “YO A DEMON DRAGON” than, “ermagherd, it ate them”. It’s from the source game.

There’s that, and then theres Snake, a favorite of mine, using actual military grade weaponry.

Also, what’s wrong with a woman expressing her sexuality? If she wants to do a dance that doesn’t show any sort of part of her body, who cares? Does that suddenly mean 6 year olds are going to be freaked out by sexuality?

That’s incredibly silly.

Can confirm.

Had an eight year old play Smash at my house.

She picked Bayonetta and got the Smash Ball. She thought it was awesome and asked me to show her how to do it again.

Bayonetta was also her first choice by the way.

 

[Morbi]

. . .that isn't how this works. You're making a claim with no evidence.

You aren't, so any "well if I was" is invalid because you obviously dont have the same mindset.

Casuals probably dont even care for BK since he hasn't had a nintendo game since most casuals were born. Same for K rool.

Ridley probably isn't a casual darling either (i would assume casuals agree with the too big thing, in part because memes. Even then I dont think casuals would care for a random Metroid character)

Master Chief I could maaaaaaybe give, but that would definitely fit under not realizable



TBH I think the fact that you are choosing hardcore darlings is just proof how little people actually know about what casuals want lol

Okay, how about this. Let me use a fact: THE BALLOT WINNER WAS THE MOST "REALIZABLE." What does that mean? Exactly, it was never defined. For all we know, she was ten or fifteen down, but all of the characters above, and I am not just talking about Goku and Shrek, were discounted. Ridley would fall into that, for instance. And once he gets revealed this time around, pretty sure I am going to be vindicated. But as of right now, I have nothing for you.

Uh huh, and neither is anyone here. So we can only speculate.

Okay, why, then, would a casual want Bayonetta over Dante? Riddle me that.

 

[Pakky]

Also, its funny she won in Europe and the game is just Italy with witches and angels

 

[Tree Gelbman]

"Casuals don't know this character" arguments fail considering that outside of gaming circles, 90% of the characters on the roster are unfamiliar with general audiances to begin with.

You'd be surprised by the amount of people that aren't familiar with characters like Link and Samus.

I mean people are familiar with Link, just a lot of people think his name is Zelda.

Most of my casual friends think Samus is a dude. Despite you know a blonde ass woman version of her called ''Zero Suit Samus" is right there next to her on the select screen.

 

[A Distant Demon]

I thought it was pretty clear that she did not win the ballot. She was the most voted ONLY IN EUROPE if I remind correctly

They said #1 worldwide, top 5 in NA(?) and #1 in Europe

For who you guys did vote in the ballot?

Viridi, Ridley, Wonder Red, Paper Mario, Melia, Edea Lee, Dixie King, Roy. Im sure there were more but I dont remember them. TBH, I dont think any of my votes were counted because of this

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I thought it was pretty clear that she did not win the ballot. She was the most voted ONLY IN EUROPE if I remind correctly

Also, with that in mind
For who you guys did vote in the ballot?
I voted for Paper Mario

She had the most overall votes worldwide iirc

 

[Morbi]

"Casuals don't know this character" arguments fail considering that outside of gaming circles, 90% of the characters on the roster are unfamiliar with general audiances to begin with.

You'd be surprised by the amount of people that aren't familiar with characters like Link and Samus.

I would argue the opposite. Nintendo characters are iconic, I was trying to think of obscure third-party characters, I checked about a dozen "best gaming characters" lists and almost a quarter to half of them were just Nintendo characters. That being said, once you start including Shulk and whatnot, I can definitely see where you are coming from. I am just saying, if they do not recognize Link, there is no way in hell they recognize Bayonetta unless all they play are hack and slash games.

I thought it was pretty clear that she did not win the ballot. She was the most voted ONLY IN EUROPE if I remind correctly

Also, with that in mind
For who you guys did vote in the ballot?
I voted for Paper Mario

To be fair, she was the "overall" winner. So, to that end, hypothetically, she would win in Europe and maybe get 2 or 3rd in another region whereas the runner-up (who was ahead in two other regions) likely got 4th or 5th, or realistically worse, in another region.

 

[BluePikmin11]

It's possible, though there are a few differences in the situations between those games.

Timing-wise, FE16 and Pokémon Switch are in far different positions then FE Awakening and Pokémon XY. The former came out before the Smash 4 project started and Sakurai even said that it's timing was fortuitous since if it came out six months too early or too late it would've missed the boat, FE Switch is coming out likely around the time Smash Switch does, which makes its timing a lot more contentious. Pokémon Switch is in a similar situation, we know that Sakurai is willing to wait, but Pokémon XY came out during Smash 4's development, not around it at best. So their timing could be less fortuitous then it was for Awakening and XY, and thus make things a lot more complicated for them. ​

By six months earlier or later, you mean Fire Emblem Awakening or Smash 4? What exactly would be the time span?

For the FE Switch character's timing, I think since it is coming around Smash Switch's release, I think we will probably get a character from that game, whether it be last-minute or a unique newcomer, which makes the FE Switch's situation more akin to Greninja.

With Pokémon SM and Echoes it'd be slightly different, but closer to the same. I could see Pokemon SM being put aside as a slot, but their situation could also be more akin to Lucario's then Greninja's since the game would be out early in Smash Switch's production and thus Sakurai could potentially pick from popular reception/promotion rather then concepts. With Echoes, it'd be akin to Pokémon XY since it'd come out in the middle of production and if Sakurai set aside a slot for FE they'd be perfect choices for addition. Their timing could be fortuitous in the sense that they arrived just in time to be playable.

I kinda agree with Pokemon SM, but who knows, GF may want to strictly change plans for Sakurai and add a Pokemon from the '8th generation'.

Since both new FE/Pokemon games are near, if characters from the new games were to be added, it could cause a dilemma to which more characters could get cut than in Smash 4, making the slots for add more last minute clones less of an opportunity. It could even cause a delay depending on the circumstances, but I am somewhat confident that they could make it in time with the Switch game development being a faster process than before.​

 

[Fenriraga]

Eh, normally I do not respond to strawman; however, since I am responding to half a dozen people anyway, why not?

Precisely, they were pushing her quite heavily. That is the basis of my point. Okay, here is the thing, who voted for Goku? Not Nintendo loyalists... Because Sakurai confirmed it would not happen. And yet, people voted for the sex queen? Ha ha ha... Good one.

If you cannot understand where I am coming from after reading all of my posts, you are the problem. Not me. Never stated you had to agree. Alternate theories are great for the mind. If you are not willing to humor it, why even bother responding? Just to call me delusional. Thanks fam, next time, just cut to the chase, Papi.

There IS NO EVIDENCE. Why don't you? Because it does not exist. Jesus... People these days.

Evidence is simple.

Sales figures. Fan reviews of Bayo 2. The majority of Bayonetta's own fanbase being Nintendo fans since that's how the series got most of its exposure in this day and age. And the ballot. Do you really think the vast majority of the casual market knows about Bayonetta more than within the Nintendo fanbase's own walls?

This all depends on what your perception of a "hardcore Nintendo Fan" entails. Is it people who buy all their games? People who love more than Just the big IPs like Mario and Zelda and Pokemon? People who have been around with Nintendo for years? That is far too broad of a generalization to be using as an argument point for "Bayonetta means nothing to Hardcore Nintendo Fans".

I'm a hardcore Nintendo Fan. I have almost every console from the NES onward, I play my Switch religiously, there isn't a single Smash character whose origin game I have not at least played, I have over a dozen T-shirts with Nintendo in-jokes on them that I wear before any of my other shirts, my room is filled to the brim with collectables, I have every amiibo, etcetc. Am I what you classify a hardcore Nintendo Fan?

Because I love Bayonetta.

You'll have a much easier time finding people like me saying they love, or at least like, Bayonetta. So generalizing people like me, yes, is going to make me poke holes in that logic.

 

[Senselessbreak]

See the realizable thing is great because when ballot conspiracy theorists claim "Well ACTUALLY K.Rool won!" then they're saying K.Rool wouldn't work in Smash*

*K.Rool is being used due to being the example I've seen the most about ballot conspiracy theorists

Well what ever the case, its clear Bayonetta didn't win. She came in 1st in Europe, 5th in the US, and not even mentionable in Japan (or Asia as a whole). The US consists of a far larger user base, so the likely winner of the US vote won the whole thing. However thats still not factoring the rest of the Americas which also has a large base, or Australia. She didn't place anywhere significant in any of those areas, otherwise they would have bragged about it.

And the next thing is, work clearly began on her long before the ballot ended. I mean it takes a long time to make a character, thus if we implied work began for her on Oct 3, 2015 when the ballot ended, she would have never been negotiated and programmed for her reveal in Dec of that year. She was probably chosen regardless of the ballot because Nintendos fresh interest and investments in her, and perhaps Sakurais friendship with Kamiya. They expected her to score decently anyways and used vague answers and broad terms without numbers to make the case that she "won."

The whole purpose of the ballot wasn't for Smash 4 DLC, but to gauge the popularity of characters when selecting them for future titles. I mean 10/14 of the new characters in Melee got in as they did well on Melee's poll. And another 8 from the same poll got in Brawl. Characters with costumes likes K Rool (original textures), Inklings and Geno show that they were probably scoring high on the ballot but Sakurai didn't want to do a full character for them at the time. Inklings are now playable so what does that mean for other characters?

 

[Roberto zampari]

I'm thinking about a new character to be included in Smash 5:

IT'S CALLED MATSUKAZE TENMA:

He have keshin armed and his moveset is based in soccer hisastsu.
Is it a good idea?

 

[FlareHabanero]

I would argue the opposite. Nintendo characters are iconic, I was trying to think of obscure third-party characters, I checked about a dozen "best gaming characters" lists and almost a quarter to half of them were just Nintendo characters. That being said, once you start including Shulk and whatnot, I can definitely see where you are coming from. I am just saying, if they do not recognize Link, there is no way in hell they recognize Bayonetta unless all they play are hack and slash games.

You missed the key words "outside of gaming circles". When you start interacting with the silent majority, that's when you realize the majority of Smash characters were aimed at the niche demographic of video games.

Like if you brought over your mother, your uncle, your cousin, even random strangers on the street, then make them name every character in the game, there's a very strong chance they'll get a good chunk of them wrong, only being able to recognize specific characters like Mario and Sonic. That's what I'm trying to get at here.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Takamaru could be a unique and interesting swordsman. Anyone else agree?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Sakurai noted Bayonetta was Number 1 in the UK and the Top 5 in the other 2 regions. He didn't release any information beyond that.

That still makes her extremely high worldwide, or possibly Number 1 among the total results. Not that it matters, since the point was "realizable", or in other words, how easy they are to make playable. That's pretty much the best way to describe that word. Everything was easy when Sega was already on good terms, there was a unique gimmick of comboing to work with, and all that was needed otherwise was toning her down a bit for the ERSB tyep stuff.

 

[Morbi]

Evidence is simple.

Sales figures. Fan reviews of Bayo 2. The majority of Bayonetta's own fanbase being Nintendo fans since that's how the series got most of its exposure in this day and age.

This all depends on what your perception of a "hardcore Nintendo Fan" entails. Is it people who buy all their games? People who love more than Just the big IPs like Mario and Zelda and Pokemon? People who have been around with Nintendo for years? That is far too broad of a generalization to be using as an argument point for "Bayonetta means nothing to Hardcore Nintendo Fans". I'm a hardcore Nintendo Fan. I have almost every console from the NES onward, I play my Switch religiously, there isn't a single Smash character whose origin game I have not at least played, I have over a dozen T-shirts with Nintendo in-jokes on them that I wear before any of my other shirts, my room is filled to the brim with collectables, I have every amiibo, etcetc. Am I what you classify a hardcore Nintendo Fan?

Because I love Bayonetta.

You'll have a much easier time finding people like me saying they love, or at least like, Bayonetta. So generalizing people like me, yes, is going to make me poke holes in that logic.

I am not sure. The perception around Bayonetta was that it was multi-platform. I do not even recall if it was on the Wii or not, but I do remember that everyone was pissed when Nintendo got exclusivity to it. So it was not really established as "Nintendo" until two. I would hardly call that "most of its exposure."

Sales figures are irrelevant. Plenty of viable third-party characters sold way better than Bayonetta. The whole Nintendo loyalty argument is much stronger.

My perception of hardcore Nintendo fan is just someone that understands where everyone on the damned roster came from. To that end, most people who are invested with Nintendo and listening to the rules of the ballot would not have voted for Bayonetta unless they wanted the vote to be wasted. To that end, a casual, that thought that someone stripping was going to make it into Smash, would definitely not be aware of the happenings, and yet still watch Nintendo Directs. Pretty niche audience, huh? Curious.

Overwatch means a lot to me as a hardcore Nintendo fan. That has nothing to do with the general fan-base, however. And to that end, Bayonetta back then was NOT who she is now. Currently, she means a lot. Prior to the ballot, nobody was even sure we would get a Bayo 3.

There is no hole to poke. You are an exception. There was no discernible pattern back then of Nintendo fans treating Bayonetta like a Nintendo first-party.

 

[RosiePeaches]

After looking around, what is the history of Daisy in Smashboards? I don’t want to focus on one guy but I would love to know all the details on why this place seemingly hates her. I thought she would be a popular pick now that both Peach and Rosalina are in the game? Thanks for reading!

 

[BluePikmin11]

@Arcanir , if it is not too much trouble, what about the timespan between Smash 4 DLC and Fire Emblem Fate's Corrin too?

Perhaps we can progress the FE newcomer situation further if we figure out both.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

You missed the key words "outside of gaming circles". When you start interacting with the silent majority, that's when you realize the majority of Smash characters were aimed at the niche demographic of video games.

Like if you brought over your mother, your uncle, your cousin, even random strangers on the street, then make them name every character in the game, there's a very strong chance they'll get a good chunk of them wrong, only being able to recognize specific characters like Mario and Sonic. That's what I'm trying to get at here.

We already have a video about that.

@Arcanir , if it is not too much trouble, what about the timespan between Smash 4 DLC and Fire Emblem Fate's Corrin too?

Perhaps we can progress the FE newcomer situation further if we figure out both.

Sakurai stated work on Corrin began after the Japanese release of Fates.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Sakurai noted Bayonetta was Number 1 in the UK and the Top 5 in the other 2 regions. He didn't release any information beyond that..

People miss the worldwide thing. Sakurai seems to have looked for someone who would please the entire world.

It's also just silly to me to think that people think Sakurai has something to gain out of lying about the ballot in the first place.

Like why do people legit think this man saw that say K. Rool placed #1 worldwide and just randomly decided to pick another character instead?

What is his gain? Why do you believe this man to be some maniacal game developer super villain out to ruin your faves?

Like chill out.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

After looking around, what is the history of Daisy in Smashboards? I don’t want to focus on one guy but I would love to know all the details on why this place seemingly hates her. I thought she would be a popular pick now that both Peach and Rosalina are in the game? Thanks for reading!

We had a user that pushed her heavily that was an absolute bunghole.

He even harassed a few users.

That on top of most people not seeing the appeal or moveset potential.

 

[Morbi]

People miss the worldwide thing. Sakurai seems to have looked for someone who would please the entire world.

It's also just silly me to think that people think Sakurai has something to gain out of lying about the ballot in the first place.

Like why do people legit think this man saw that say K. Rool placed #1 worldwide and just randomly decided to pick another character instead?

What is his gain? Why do you believe this man to be some maniacal game developer super villain out ruin your faves?

Like chill out.

Nah, someone else, I believe Senseless, just pointed out that it discluded several key regions and just stuck to the generic three. And if you were to do that, the American winner would have pleased the majority much better. And yet, here we are.

Not Sakurai, Nintendo. Look at what Bayonetta has reaped the benefits of as a result of "winning the ballot." Back then, no one could predict the future. But presently, we can pay attention to the ****ing present.

As Senseless also stated, the "winner' was selected prior the ballot actually closing and the Mii costumes exist. There is your explanation. Beyond that, I doubt he won, per se.

Lmfao. Omg...

 

[Senselessbreak]

She had the most overall votes worldwide iirc

No they said she was their top choice worldwide. Never said most votes. She only placed 1st in Europe and 5th in the US. No mention of Japan or Asia, Australia, the rest of the NA, etc. There are huge chunks of demographics and coming in 1st in one of the smaller demographics just doesn't give her the votes to win. In terms of base size, the US is larger than Europe and Japans base combined. So she would have needed to win a bunch of regions to counter the massive chunk of the vote she lost in the US.

 

[Chiroz]

Well what ever the case, its clear Bayonetta didn't win. She came in 1st in Europe, 5th in the US, and not even mentionable in Japan (or Asia as a whole). The US consists of a far larger user base, so the likely winner of the US vote won the whole thing. However thats still not factoring the rest of the Americas which also has a large base, or Australia. She didn't place anywhere significant in any of those areas, otherwise they would have bragged about it.

And the next thing is, work clearly began on her long before the ballot ended. I mean it takes a long time to make a character, thus if we implied work began for her on Oct 3, 2015 when the ballot ended, she would have never been negotiated and programmed for her reveal in Dec of that year. She was probably chosen regardless of the ballot because Nintendos fresh interest and investments in her, and perhaps Sakurais friendship with Kamiya. They expected her to score decently anyways and used vague answers and broad terms without numbers to make the case that she "won."

The whole purpose of the ballot wasn't for Smash 4 DLC, but to gauge the popularity of characters when selecting them for future titles. I mean 10/14 of the new characters in Melee got in as they did well on Melee's poll. And another 8 from the same poll got in Brawl. Characters with costumes likes K Rool (original textures), Inklings and Geno show that they were probably scoring high on the ballot but Sakurai didn't want to do a full character for them at the time. Inklings are now playable so what does that mean for other characters?

Most of the arguments against Bayo have been incredibly bad, but this one is actually solid.

It is pretty obvious Nintendo decided on Bayo before the Ballot ended. She could have been noticed to be on the top, but that would have had to happen way before the ballot ended.

I do believe that Bayo had a very big fanbase and is immensely popular, I am not going to try and debate that she isn't popular or deserving, because she obviously is, but that doesn't take away the points made by Senselessbreak.

 

[Chandeelure]

Discussing the ballot results in 2018 makes as much sense as discussing if the Gematsu leak was real or not.

 

[RosiePeaches]

We had a user that pushed her heavily that was an absolute bunghole.

He even harassed a few users.

That on top of most people not seeing the appeal or moveset potential.

I want to focus more on the bolded. Say if she got in with a moveset that was different enough from anyone else in the roster and reflected what kind of character Daisy is (energetic, competitive, sporty, flower buffs/debuffs) would people here be down for it? Or does it not make sense?

 

[Tree Gelbman]

After looking around, what is the history of Daisy in Smashboards? I don’t want to focus on one guy but I would love to know all the details on why this place seemingly hates her. I thought she would be a popular pick now that both Peach and Rosalina are in the game? Thanks for reading!

Massive Mario fan.

It's cliche and boring as **** to say this probably, but my favorite Nintendo franchise.

Simply put? We've had some really really ****ty Daisy fans on this board.

And also as someone who loves the series and actually adores Daisy. I just don't see anything she provides that someone else doesn't do either with more character or better. There's also the fact we still have people like Toad and Paper Mario who are important to the franchise over all completely missing out on being in Smash Brothers.

Even as someone who likes her I view her as probably the most unnecessary pick for a Mario rep.

Waluigi does sports spin-off better and has been an assist trophy showing that off.

Paper Mario represents the best of the other Mario spin-offs.

Toad/Captain Toad represents the last of the main 8 or so Mario characters not present.

And even then if you start including random representatives there are people like Pauline who tie back to Donkey Kong, Nintendo's first hit game, Geno, who is nostalgic as hell and has great moveset potential, villains from Paper Mario's series that are the same, etc.

Long story, didn't read. Like Daisy. Just don't see that she has what it takes when you consider the Mario series as a whole.

 

[Morbi]

Discussing the ballot results in 2018 makes as much sense as discussing if the Gematsu leak was real or not.

Most discussion I have seen in here since we started. Beyond that, I had no idea that just pointing out the facts around the ballot was enough to completely shut these clowns down. I guess next time I will just mention the timing and where the results came from, save myself the effort of getting more in-depth.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Takamaru could be a unique and interesting swordsman. Anyone else agree?

Specifically I want a character that emphasizes Iaido. A character that is built around reaction instead of aggression, mimicking the artform.

 

[kylexv]

For who you guys did vote in the ballot?

K. Rool and Ice Climbers
I was in....denial.

 

[AlphaSSB]

When it comes to the Ballot, I don't believe that it was rigged straight from the get-go. If Sakurai wanted Bayo in Smash, he would've just done it. There would be no point in making a fake ballot/suggestion box to falsely 'justify' himself.

However, I take the "Among negotiable and realizable characters" very heavily into account. We do not know for certain how many characters ahead of her were considered 'non-negotiable or non-realizable', nor do we know the specifics for what qualifies as non-negotiable or non-realizable. There could've been 10 characters in front of her, there could've been 20 or more. We don't know.

I do not believe Bayo was truly #1 Worldwide, as we don't know how many characters in front of her were pushed to the side until she got there. Maybe she was Top 20 Worldwide, maybe she was Top 40. How many were video-game characters, how many were 4th Party? We don't have the results. I believe it is 'unwise' to believe the Ballot was rigged the start, but I also believe that it is equally 'unwise' to just accept what we're given when we don't have all the facts.

Just my stance on the topic.

 

[Morbi]

When it comes to the Ballot, I don't believe that it was rigged straight from the get-go. If Sakurai wanted Bayo in Smash, he would've just done it. There would be no point in making a fake ballot/suggestion box to falsely 'justify' himself.

However, I take the "Among negotiable and realizable characters" very heavily into account. We do not know for certain how many characters ahead of her were considered 'non-negotiable or non-realizable', nor do we know the specifics for what qualifies as non-negotiable or non-realizable. There could've been 10 characters in front of her, there could've been 20 or more. We don't know.

I do not believe Bayo was truly #1 Worldwide, as we don't know how many characters in front of her were pushed to the side until she got there. Maybe she was Top 20 Worldwide, maybe she was Top 40. How many were video-game characters, how many were 4th Party? We don't have the results. I believe it is 'unwise' to believe the Ballot was rigged the start, but I also believe that it is equally 'unwise' to just accept what we're given when we don't have all the facts.

Just my stance on the topic.

There actually was not enough room. Nintendo was pushing for Corrin, the rest were returning characters and even Wolf, actually, did not make it. Beyond that, as I stated before, the ballot has more to do with Smash Switch than the DLC for the last game. Clearly, as we have more or less established it was rigged to some effect.

Ditto. That is the key right there, if you ask me. But apparently it is a **** argument.

The only way to go about things, with an open-mind.

 

[Chiroz]

I thought it was pretty clear that she did not win the ballot. She was the most voted ONLY IN EUROPE if I remind correctly

Also, with that in mind
For who you guys did vote in the ballot?
I voted for Paper Mario

Isaac as first

Then I noticed it wasn't IP locked and voted:

Cloud
Ice Climbers
Wolf
Squirtle
Bomberman
Goemon (impossible pipedream)
Goku (even more impossible pipedream, but if I can vote infinitely then why not?)
Isaac (in case the ballot only counts your last vote)

In that same order.

 

[RosiePeaches]

Techincally Mario is already in the game...twice. I can see why Paper Mario was skipped over.

Toad might have been skipped over because of how he is shown to be a sort of helper character and not really a character on the front. This could change with Captain Toad.

Also, I do not see how Waluigi would do the sports thing better than Daisy would do it. Waluigi also does not have the whole flower thing going for him like Daisy does...seriously though I don’t know why Daisy can’t be a flower based fighter of some sort! We don’t really have that in Smash currently and Ivysaur will probably not return. Why not her?

Maybe the thing might be that people see Daisy and Waluigi as competing for a spot, and if one gets it the other will not?

 

[A Distant Demon]

Sakurai noted Bayonetta was Number 1 in the UK and the Top 5 in the other 2 regions. He didn't release any information beyond that.

^Information beyond that


And if your evidence for the conspiracy theory is that Sakurai didn't list off every single country in the world I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Chandeelure]

For who you guys did vote in the ballot?
I voted for Paper Mario

I voted for Bandana Dee a lot.
Also, some for Bomberman, Magolor, Ridley and Pichu.

 

[Morbi]

Techincally Mario is already in the game...twice. I can see why Paper Mario was skipped over.

Toad might have been skipped over because of how he is shown to be a sort of helper character and not really a character on the front. This could change with Captain Toad.

Also, I do not see how Waluigi would do the sports thing better than Daisy would do it. Waluigi also does not have the whole flower thing going for him like Daisy does...seriously though I don’t know why Daisy can’t be a flower based fighter of some sort! We don’t really have that in Smash currently and Ivysaur will probably not return.

Did Waluigi not debut in Mario Tennis? Beyond that, his long lanky build is technically better for sports. Given the cartoon-esque nature, if someone were literally that thin, perhaps not; however, his size is definitely an advantage.

^Information beyond that


And if your evidence for the conspiracy theory is that Sakurai didn't list off every single country in the world I don't know what to tell you.

Ugh, what it should say, with a little asterisk is *among realizable fighters. I would say checkmate; however, you are going to blatantly ignore that fact regardless of what I do.

 

[Fenriraga]

I am not sure. The perception around Bayonetta was that it was multi-platform. I do not even recall if it was on the Wii or not, but I do remember that everyone was pissed when Nintendo got exclusivity to it. So it was not really established as "Nintendo" until two. I would hardly call that "most of its exposure."

Sales figures are irrelevant. Plenty of viable third-party characters sold way better than Bayonetta. The whole Nintendo loyalty argument is much stronger.

My perception of hardcore Nintendo fan is just someone that understands where everyone on the damned roster came from. To that end, most people who are invested with Nintendo and listening to the rules of the ballot would not have voted for Bayonetta unless they wanted the vote to be wasted. To that end, a casual, that thought that someone stripping was going to make it into Smash, would definitely not be aware of the happenings, and yet still watch Nintendo Directs. Pretty niche audience, huh? Curious.

Overwatch means a lot to me as a hardcore Nintendo fan. That has nothing to do with the general fan-base, however. And to that end, Bayonetta back then was NOT who she is now. Currently, she means a lot. Prior to the ballot, nobody was even sure we would get a Bayo 3.

There is no hole to poke. You are an exception. There was no discernible pattern back then of Nintendo fans treating Bayonetta like a Nintendo first-party.

What does treating her like a first party have anything to do with her popularity among the hardcore Nintendo fanbase? Sonic and Megaman are mostly beloved among many hardcore fans because of their history with Nintendo. Pac Man too of course. Why is Bayonetta an exception to that rule?

She's not a first party, that much is obvious, no one is denying that. The people who got "Pissed" at Bayonetta's exclucivity were fans of OTHER platforms, not Nintendo fans. Yeah, sure, some Nintendo fans might have been upset about that too, but like you said, "Exception, not the rule".

In regards to Bayonetta's votes, I can at least SORT OF see where you're coming from in that regard. I was actually going to vote Bayo along with my other top vote, but like others, the idea of her making it into Smash was a pipe dream at the time. I can at least understand the logic of not generalizing the hardcore votes for Bayo when a lot of us thought we "knew better" before the likes of Cloud and Bayo.

I still don't see how Bayo wasn't who she is now back then. We were hot off the heels of Bayo 2 when the Ballot was relevant. It was loved by a ton of people, and again, sold well. If anything, she was peaking at the time.

But I'm not even arguing the ballot vote right now, my point is you CANNOT generalize an entire section of the fanbase when literally almost everyone against your point right now likely falls under a "hardcore" and there is much more sound evidence against that point than for it. I mean hell, we're on a forum about Super Smash Bros. I'm pretty sure most people here lean more towards hardcore fans than casual fans.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Ugh, what it should say, with a little asterisk is *among realizable fighters. I would say checkmate; however, you are going to blatantly ignore that fact regardless of what I do.

I stopped arguing with you over half an hour ago. I know you wont budge and really dont care with dealing with conspiracy theorists. I deal with that enough in other places/topics.

 

[New_Dumal]

If Bayonetta was the most voted character, it would be stated exactly with this words.
But they said she was the most voted in EUR and one of the most voted in other places, so "OVERALL"... she was the picked one. If Bayo was the most voted character, Sakurai would happily states like this. But she wasn't.
And I'm now saying this because I dislike her, I'm okay with her inclusion.

Now... people defending that she was the most voted one, even when NINTENDO ITSELF explained it's not.. that's absurd.

Don't understimate the Boards/Reddit power in that ballot. Not because we're many, but because we're the most die-hard fans.
It's not impossible to K.Rool or Ridley to win over Bayo casual popularity.
People voted EVERYDAY and multiple times for this characters.
And people who voted in the Ballot are not the casual public.
I know a lot of people who plays Smash but voted once in the ballot. Most of players don't even voted.
If everyone would vote a unique time while buying a copy, K.Rool and Ridley were both impossible to win.
But the way that was done... completely possible to be above Bayo. Let's remember K.Rool, a "dead" villain got a Mii costume.
There's a reason for that.

 

[RosiePeaches]

You do have a good point about Waluigi being very long and lanky. I can see him working with wacky moves. But something within me feels that gender may play a part. You see, among the four most requested Mario characters, Daisy is the only one that is a female character. In terms of diversity the female cast in Smash 4 made fantastic strides in diversity among fighters. The ballot also made a distinction between male and female voters. I hear that Daisy is more popular among the female Nintendo fanbase than the male Nintendo fanbase.

Also, people bring up us not having all the Mario brothers in a way, but we are currently at 2 out of 3 Mario Princesses. There is an oppoturnity to make them all represent different parts of the Mario franchise.