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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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PsychoJosh

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Still talking about this?

I wanted to change the subject and talk about stages, but it seems you're still going at it. You guys have a point in that Nintendo doesn't have much western-created content they could add to Smash, but it's still true that Nintendo shows preference to Japan-made content. I mean it doesn't seem likely that they would ever consider western-made third party characters to be playable in Smash due to language barriers and things like that.
 

Arcadenik

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While we don't have many non-Japan characters in Smash, we do have international characters who are more popular in the West than they are in Japan.
 
D

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Does Nintendo/Sakurai have a "preference" for non-Western created 3rd Party characters? It's a possibility.

Do we really have any evidence that supports this? Not really. Very few Western-made 3rd Parties get enough notable requests to begin with to warrant consideration.

Though an example of a Western video game character (and indie game character) that has potential to break the mold? Shovel Knight. Nintendo has shown to be rather favorable towards him in particular.
 

Arcadenik

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I think Shovel Knight is more likely than Shantae... but still, having both in Smash would be awesome.
 

PsychoJosh

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Ugh.

I don't want either of them. Would fully support Nintendo if they saw them and chose not to include them.
 
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Luminario

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Your guess is as good as mine
Are Nintendo still pushing Shovel Knight though? I haven't heard that much about it in a while. I haven't exactly been looking for info on it myself so that might be why I haven't heard anything about it but is it still popular off of this site?
Also I agree with PsychoJosh I wanna hear more about stage ideas.
 

Basty

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Are Nintendo still pushing Shovel Knight though? I haven't heard that much about it in a while. I haven't exactly been looking for info on it myself so that might be why I haven't heard anything about it but is it still popular off of this site?
Also I agree with PsychoJosh I wanna hear more about stage ideas.
Something Shovel Knight on Switch. Also why wouldn't it be popular outside of this site?
 

SmashChu

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Does Nintendo/Sakurai have a "preference" for non-Western created 3rd Party characters? It's a possibility.

Do we really have any evidence that supports this? Not really. Very few Western-made 3rd Parties get enough notable requests to begin with to warrant consideration.

Though an example of a Western video game character (and indie game character) that has potential to break the mold? Shovel Knight. Nintendo has shown to be rather favorable towards him in particular.
I don't think there is a Japanese bias. Nintendo characters are all made in Japan (Diddy being the only exception). The only question is third party characters who are supposed to be a guest. But, again, Smash tends to pick from the biggest, long running series, and these tend to be Japanese. With the exception of Bayonetta (who should have never been in the game), all of the guest characters have been from massively successful and long-running series. So I think it's coincidence more than anything.
I think Shovel Knight is more likely than Shantae... but still, having both in Smash would be awesome.
I think Shovel Knight is one of those characters who shouldn't be in Smash.

And I think that brings one of the major issues for Smash going forward and it's how it handles characters. It was that the most popular characters were guest characters. Sonic was popular for Brawl. Megaman was popular for Smash 4, and Pac Man was somewhat popular (though I think a lot of people didn't like the fact it could be awful "I'm a meme" Pac-Man.). With the inclusion of these three characters, most fans seem to think it was perfect. I remember hearing that the trio was just right. Of course, thereafter, Sakurai kept adding guest characters. Before the last Direct for Smash, I heard sentiment from Nintendo fans (such as the Nintendo sub reddit) that they just wanted Nintendo characters.

Sourcegaming did a poll before I left. One of the questions was "who would you cut." Besides the clones, the highest characters were Cloud, Corrin and Bayonetta. Ryu was slightly higher but nothing too crazy. Sonic, Megaman and Pac-Man were normal as well. I think the results show something we haven't considered. There is this assumption that we must add more guest characters because they are popular while Nintendo characters are not. But I think the reality was that fans never really wanted guest characters that much as they wanted guest characters that related to Nintendo.

Snake is a good example of this. Despite what some say now, Snake wasn't that missed when he was cut. In fact, everyone just kind of expected it. The whole missing Snake thing is only recent, and I'd argue characters like Wolf and Ice Climbers are characters fans want more. And look at which characters were the most popular. Sonic is considered Mario's rival. Megaman started on the NES. Pac-Man is a classic character who just kind of fits. Ryu at least had his big break on the SNES (but I don't think fans see it this way anymore which is why he's never been as popular). This is the same reason characters like Bayonetta and Cloud are so controversial. Even though, yes, there is no hard and fast rule they must be on a Nintendo system, fans expect it.

So back to something I mentioned before where everyone said: "we need guest characters because they are popular". Look at things now. The most popular characters are all Nintendo characters (the only exception may have been Snake who is a veteran now). Most of the major third parties series have been hit. And the biggest successes coming out of Japan are Nintendo. Animal Crossing New Leaf broke 10 million. Pokemon Sun and Moon broke 14 million. Breath of the Wild will likely sell 10 million. Splatoon is a big hit in Japan. Fire Emblem is having the best sales its seen in its history. And Mario is Mario. The most popular characters are Inkling and Decidueye. And now we are getting new IPs like ARMs and whatever else Nintendo shows off. But what guest characters are there? Bomberman maybe? Monster Hunter? There aren't a lot left, and I would argue fans are more touchy judging by how well Cloud and Bayo went over.

I don't want to say end guest forever. Although I personally want that, I understand that fighting games do this a lot. Mortal Kombat has them a lot. Tekken 7 is adding Akuma. Guest are kind of the thing. But the problem is you can't flood the game like they did with Smash 4 (out of the 18 new characters, 4 of them were guests. This is also being generous and including DP and Lucina).

Smash is about to be 20 years old. If I was to advise Sakurai, I'd give him two alternatives. Either A)Cut all the third party characters and just focus on Nintendo or B)Pick one REALLY good character and make them feel special. Nevertheless, the point is there needs to be a limiting on guests. Smash is a Nintendo All Star game, and it has to focus on that. Some would argue "Well, there are still a lot of Nintendo characters," but this is expected when every box advertises "Fight with Nintendo's all stars." With the next Smash Bros, there needs to be a focus on Nintendo.

This is something I've been pondering, so I thought I'd bring it up. Also, I know people hate when I bring it up, so sorry if it feels like I'm butting in. Not sure how active I'll be. Just poking around as the Source Gaming discord is getting boring.
 
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Sourcegaming did a poll before I left. One of the questions was "who would you cut." Besides the clones, the highest characters were Cloud, Corrin and Bayonetta. Ryu was slightly higher but nothing too crazy. Sonic, Megaman and Pac-Man were normal as well. I think the results show something we haven't considered. There is this assumption that we must add more guest characters because they are popular while Nintendo characters are not. But I think the reality was that fans never really wanted guest characters that much as they wanted guest characters that related to Nintendo.
This is a really awkward example, since Bayonetta and Cloud were overwhelmingly hated for being absurdly OP at release

Cloud and Bayo are still super popular (Hell Bayo won the ballot) even with that though.
Despite what some say now, Snake wasn't that missed when he was cut. In fact, everyone just kind of expected it. T
I mean. . .not really. A lot of people were mad abou tSnake not making the cut, and expecting to be cut doesn't have anything to do with the matter. THat had more to do with Smash For's different artstyle and inevitably as more and more people realized how ****ty Konami was.


I agree with the general claim that the major third parties have already been hit, but the idea that the ones we have arent popular (especially Cloud and Bayo who everyone was freaking out about and one was even voted in)
 
D

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The most popular characters are Inkling and Decidueye.
You severely overestimate how popular Decidueye is overall.

Besides, we'd honestly sooner get its own previous form Rowlet at this point instead based on how Pokémon get in.

That's the only thing I'm going to address.
 

SmashChu

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You severely overestimate how popular Decidueye is overall.

Besides, we'd honestly sooner get its own previous form Rowlet at this point instead based on how Pokémon get in.

That's the only thing I'm going to address.
Why would Rowlet get in instead of Decidueye?

Just curious your reasoning.
 
D

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Why would Rowlet get in instead of Decidueye?

Just curious your reasoning.
Specifically between itself and Decidueye?

-Much more popular (seriously; Rowlet is one of the biggest examples of a pre-evolved Starter being clearly above not only the the other two but among its own evolutionary line), being among one of the most popular Pokémon from Alola in general. A "hot topic" Pokémon.
-Is the one actually getting promotion and marketing between the two. Showing up as a major character in the anime (with a distinct possibility to not evolve due to marketability) while Decidueye doesn't even get a movie appearance like Incineroar does. It even has its own line of merchandise that, from what I understand, sold really well. http://pokeshopper.com/speciallines/rowletsgarden.html

Decidueye may be a "popular" Smash request, but most of that is expectancy just because it's the fully evolved Grass Starter for the same reason why Sceptile became a "popular" request during Smash 4 speculation.
People were quick to label Decidueye as the "most likely" for Smash before we even knew what a Decidueye was. All because of Rowlet itself.

But based on what Sakurai has been on record stating in the past....
Sakurai said:
Well first of all, we talk with the Pokemon company. What’s the hot Pokemon? What Pokemon are in the movies right now? And really do a lot of research on that front.

For example, X and Y are coming out – of course, we haven’t done any market research because they’re not out yet, but we look at the animated series or movies and anything like that and again, find out which ones are going to be central to any of conversations in Pokemon going forward.

But it’s not just that – going back to just what we talked about, what’s unique about them? Where do they fit in with the rest of everything else? What do they have? It’s a combination of those things.
Rowlet is more likely than its own evolved form.
 
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Kirbeh

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Ryu made his big break in the arcades, definitely not on the SNES
I think the intended takeaway is that SF went on to do very well among Nintendo's audience upon becoming a home console game via the SNES release.
 
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Argos

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I think assuming choices like Ryu and Cloud were big busts is something you only do when you're mostly checking out Smash speculation boards where most of us are upset that the characters we've been repping since the Gamecube era didn't get in. I mean I'd prefer Captain Syrup to Cloud, but I also know how insane it would be to say more than, like, five people were going to buy her as DLC. Smash is a massive series and the sooner we realize that we're the minority of a minority the happier we'll be.
 

PsychoJosh

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Shovel Knight is a better choice than Master Chief ever will be.
Agree to disagree.

Sourcegaming did a poll before I left. One of the questions was "who would you cut." Besides the clones, the highest characters were Cloud, Corrin and Bayonetta. Ryu was slightly higher but nothing too crazy. Sonic, Megaman and Pac-Man were normal as well. I think the results show something we haven't considered. There is this assumption that we must add more guest characters because they are popular while Nintendo characters are not. But I think the reality was that fans never really wanted guest characters that much as they wanted guest characters that related to Nintendo.
You're basing this on a poll that can only be a misrepresentation of data. Just because a select number of people who think these characters are broken voted for them being cut, does not mean the majority of people want them cut. It doesn't take into account the people who like these characters and would vote against them being cut. I would certainly be against it regardless of how overpowered people think they are, with the exception of Corrin because we have too many FE characters already.
 
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FalKoopa

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Shovel Knigh has had a much closer relationship with Nintendo than any other indie character I believe.

Between his game being on Wii U, 3DS and Switch, Treasure Trove being a timed exclusive on the Switch (it's out on PC, but not on other consoles) and the Shovel Knight amiibo. I don't think any other indie character has this much of a presence on Nintendo.
 
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Shovel Knigh has had a much closer relationship with Nintendo than any other indie character I believe.

Between his game being on Wii U, 3DS and Switch, Treasure Trove being a timed exclusive on the Switch (it's out on PC, but not on other consoles) and the Shovel Knight amiibo. I don't think any other indie character has this much of a presence on Nintendo.
Don't forget Nintendo publishing the game in Japan.
 

Luminario

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Did y'all forget the 2 exclusive Nintendo Shantae games along with every single Shantae game being released on Nintendo consoles? I mean yeah, Shovel Knight has an amiibo and timed exclusives so that works in his favour, but Shantae's been around since game boy colour. At least give her series SOME credit here.
 

Godzillathewonderdog

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Specifically between itself and Decidueye?

-Much more popular (seriously; Rowlet is one of the biggest examples of a pre-evolved Starter being clearly above not only the the other two but among its own evolutionary line), being among one of the most popular Pokémon from Alola in general. A "hot topic" Pokémon.
-Is the one actually getting promotion and marketing between the two. Showing up as a major character in the anime (with a distinct possibility to not evolve due to marketability) while Decidueye doesn't even get a movie appearance like Incineroar does. It even has its own line of merchandise that, from what I understand, sold really well. http://pokeshopper.com/speciallines/rowletsgarden.html

Decidueye may be a "popular" Smash request, but most of that is expectancy just because it's the fully evolved Grass Starter for the same reason why Sceptile became a "popular" request during Smash 4 speculation.
People were quick to label Decidueye as the "most likely" for Smash before we even knew what a Decidueye was. All because of Rowlet itself.

But based on what Sakurai has been on record stating in the past....


Rowlet is more likely than its own evolved form.
Sakurai also said "What's unique about them, what do they have."

I think Decidueye has more unique moveset potential than Rowlet.

He also said "Where do they fit in with the rest of everything else?"

I think Decidueye better fits in with the rest of everything else. He's the final evolution of a grass starter which better complements the fully evolved fire and water starters. Also having a Pokémon whos typing is completely different from everyone else makes them stand out more. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what he means by "everything else" but if you have a better interpretation I'd like to hear it.

I would also say Decidueye has Incenaroar beat in these aspects as well. I would even argue that despite Incenaroar currently getting more promotion Decidueye still seems to be the more liked Pokémon.

Also do you think Inenaroar is more popular than Litten? Because from what I've seen people seem to prefer Litten.

Oh, and I like Incenaroar as a Pokémon more than Decidueye; I'm just not biased.
 
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D

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He also said "Where do they fit in with the rest of everything else?"

I think Decidueye better fits in with the rest of everything else. He's the final evolution of a grass starter which better complements the fully evolved fire and water starters. Also having a Pokémon whos typing is completely different from everyone else makes them stand out more. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what he means by "everything else" but if you have a better interpretation I'd like to hear it.
Being a final Grass Starter means nothing.
Typing means nothing.

Only thing that matters is what the Pokémon can do in that regard, not whether or not they can fit some "pattern" or have a different "Type".
 
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Blue_Sword_Edge

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I think Shovel Knight does have some merit, making cameos in other games, having an Amiibo figure, and I can guess he's got some good video game credit. Nintendo publishing Shovel Knight in Japan helps him out too. I wouldn't be upset if Shovel Knight gets in. I don't think this makes "super likely" out of him, though.

The things about characters are, I do agree with with some limitations like keeping non-video game characters out and the same goes with video game characters without a Nintendo appearance. Sure, they may be popular, but I think of alternatives rather than just saying no on those said limitations.

On Pokemon, I'd rather keep an open mind in spite of my preferences of generation and type diversity. For all we know, any of the Sun & Moon Pokemon may not be accepted into Smash.
 
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Delzethin

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Being a final Grass Starter means nothing.
Typing means nothing.

Only thing that matters is what the Pokémon can do in that regard, not whether or not they can fit some "pattern" or have a different "Type".
Well...sort of. While the whole "we need a Grass type to complete the triangle" thing is way off base because Sakurai doesn't choose characters to fill quotas, we also don't have a character with the plant-based abilities a Grass type entails. Decidueye wouldn't get in just to finish the starter set, but Decidueye does have a legitimate chance since its abilities are inherently unique due to no one on the current roster having anything similar. Especially since we know Sakurai cares strongly about how well a newcomer can stand out, even turning down the likes of Chrom because they couldn't find a way to have him feel both unique and true to character.
 
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FalKoopa

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Did y'all forget the 2 exclusive Nintendo Shantae games along with every single Shantae game being released on Nintendo consoles? I mean yeah, Shovel Knight has an amiibo and timed exclusives so that works in his favour, but Shantae's been around since game boy colour. At least give her series SOME credit here.
Sure, Shantae is a good contender too, having originated on the Game Boy Color. But haven't seen that much interaction between Nintendo and Shantae lately. Shantae is treating all consoles largely equally.
 

Luminario

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Sure, Shantae is a good contender too, having originated on the Game Boy Color. But haven't seen that much interaction between Nintendo and Shantae lately. Shantae is treating all consoles largely equally.
Sure, WayForward are spreading out quite a bit. They're an indie company, and I respect them wanting to make more money off the game, but y'all are really playing down Shantae's Nintendo legacy in favour of Shovel Knight here. She's already got 4 games playable on Nintendo consoles: 2 Ninty exclusives, 1 you could say was a timed Ninty exclusive, and 1 just released giving her fresh relevance.
As a concept too, Shantae is absolutely banging. I mean, a hair-whipping, transforming, belly-dancing half-genie? She dances, both literally and metaphorically. Half the characters in the game haven't got **** on this queen.
The creator of Shantae said it would be an honour to get her in Smash. though I suppose every 3rd party character contender has said the same thing, so that sorta loses effect. At least we know they're willing for her to be in the game.
Shovel Knight certainly gives her a run for her money, Ill give you that, but some people in here have got to give Shantae a fighting chance.
 

FalKoopa

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Sure, WayForward are spreading out quite a bit. They're an indie company, and I respect them wanting to make more money off the game, but y'all are really playing down Shantae's Nintendo legacy in favour of Shovel Knight here. She's already got 4 games playable on Nintendo consoles: 2 Ninty exclusives, 1 you could say was a timed Ninty exclusive, and 1 just released giving her fresh relevance.
As a concept too, Shantae is absolutely banging. I mean, a hair-whipping, transforming, belly-dancing half-genie? She dances, both literally and metaphorically. Half the characters in the game haven't got **** on this queen.
The creator of Shantae said it would be an honour to get her in Smash. though I suppose every 3rd party character contender has said the same thing, so that sorta loses effect. At least we know they're willing for her to be in the game.
Shovel Knight certainly gives her a run for her money, Ill give you that, but some people in here have got to give Shantae a fighting chance.
Oh, I don't doubt her moveset potential one bit. I'd be quite happy to see her too, as I enjoyed Pirate's Curse much more than Shovel Knight and I like her design more.

I don't she's think she's particularly likely though, yeah.
 

Godzillathewonderdog

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Did he ever say it did?

Or isn't it not just nothing but fanmade logic that a Pokémon has to have typing not present in Smash to have any sort of chance?
I'm not saying they need to to stand a chance I'm saying that it helps (even if it is just a tiny bit). We can't say for sure that the typing of a Pokémon doesn't matter in any way shape or form.

If Sakurai had to choose between two Pokémon who are equally popular, recognizable, marketed, important, requested, and unique, but one shares the typing of a Pokémon already in Smash while the others typing is not represented in Smash who do you think has the better chance?
 

NonSpecificGuy

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Snake is a good example of this. Despite what some say now, Snake wasn't that missed when he was cut. In fact, everyone just kind of expected it. The whole missing Snake thing is only recent, and I'd argue characters like Wolf and Ice Climbers are characters fans want more. And look at which characters were the most popular. Sonic is considered Mario's rival. Megaman started on the NES. Pac-Man is a classic character who just kind of fits. Ryu at least had his big break on the SNES (but I don't think fans see it this way anymore which is why he's never been as popular). This is the same reason characters like Bayonetta and Cloud are so controversial. Even though, yes, there is no hard and fast rule they must be on a Nintendo system, fans expect it.
I'm gonna chime in right here because you mentioned Snake and just to point it out Snake was JUST cut in Smash 4 and yeah people, not an extreme amount mind you, were glad to see him gone. Taking in the fact that development for Smash 4 DLC wrapped up in February then I mean of course missing Snake was 'recent' the game hasn't been out for nearly a decade like Brawl. Sure Ice Climbers and Wolf are missed incredibly but arguably so as much as Snake. Cloud, Ryu, and Bayonetta have more fans than they have detractors and while I can't say the same about Corrin him being a Nintendo character who is extremely unique justifies him remaining in the game.

Quick quiz for anyone that knows. There are two third party franchises represented in Smash that were worked on by Miyamoto himself. Do you know which two?
Metal Gear with The Twin Snakes, and Pac-man with Pac-man VS. Just wanted to tell people that as I always thought that was cool.

The fact of the matter is someone, somewhere is somehow going to be pissed off about something. A character not being added, a character being cut, too many of a certain character type, too many of a certain franchise, too many third parties, the list goes on and on and on and on and on. Sakurai has learned by now that he isn't going to be able to please everyone and cutting all the third parties are going to appease a lesser amount of fans than a greater amount. Sakurai doesn't want to alienate any fans of any character and that's why he's lamented heavily on cuts. Cutting characters for the sake of cutting characters is not the way to go about the future of Smash especially not ones who make as big of a splash as Cloud. Cutting Snake was something that he HAD to do for one reason or the other, just like Ice Climbers, just like Wolf and IF the next game is a Deluxe port of Smash 4 than I have no doubt he'd more than gladly bring those 3 back to get those character's fans on board. And of course Snake is pretty iconic so having him on the box of a game is going to sell a few copies for his presence alone, same with Ryu, Cloud, Pac-man, Mega Man, Sonic, and even Bayonetta.

And yeah this is a Nintendo All-Star fighting game but it's also a game for gaming icons. Nintendo has the biggest majority of the gaming icons and adding a few more from 3rd party companies isn't going to hurt anyone. I hate to say it but to all the 'Nintendo Only' people, you always got 64 and Melee. Cause from Brawl onward, 3rd parties are never going away.
 
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WeirdChillFever

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Why are people saying Shovel Knight is Nintendo's indie baby when Yokai-Watch is throat-shoved ten times more?

Not going into either the Decidueye or the Bayomayo hot mess thank you

Nihilego is the best gen seven choice
 

Godzillathewonderdog

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"Snake is not a heavily associated with Nintendo, so I hate him."
Why are people saying Shovel Knight is Nintendo's indie baby when Yokai-Watch is throat-shoved ten times more?

Not going into either the Decidueye or the Bayomayo hot mess thank you

Nihilego is the best gen seven choice
Because Yokai-Watch isn't indie.
 

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Oh, I don't doubt her moveset potential one bit. I'd be quite happy to see her too, as I enjoyed Pirate's Curse much more than Shovel Knight and I like her design more.

I don't she's think she's particularly likely though, yeah.
I feel similarly. Let no one doubt her moveset potential, but I feel like her chances were...blown out of proportion during DLC talk. It had to do with something I've been calling the Forbidden Fruit Effect: the tendency for characters or ideas to gain support just from the idea of how surprising or groundbreaking they'd be. Once previously-forbidden fruit falls within arm's reach, like what happened with the Smash Ballot, nearly everyone wants a part of it.

Shantae's status as an indie character combined with Way Forward asking for support at just the right time, and her popularity exploded. What fans she had before became drowned out by new fans, who themselves were drowned out by people who supported her just because they wanted to belong, or be seen doing the trendy and cool thing.

It made her actual odds difficult to track and generally lower than many assumed, but Arceus forbid you said that within earshot of some people. Eesh.
 
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FalKoopa

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Yes, but this discussion was about third parties (though it started as western third parties which Yokai Watch is not)
But YW is a third party advertised as first party meme-fest
The topic shifted specifically towards indies.

That's why we were talking about Shovelry and Pirate Dancer.
 

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I don't think there is a Japanese bias. Nintendo characters are all made in Japan (Diddy being the only exception). The only question is third party characters who are supposed to be a guest. But, again, Smash tends to pick from the biggest, long running series, and these tend to be Japanese. With the exception of Bayonetta (who should have never been in the game), all of the guest characters have been from massively successful and long-running series. So I think it's coincidence more than anything.


I think Shovel Knight is one of those characters who shouldn't be in Smash.

And I think that brings one of the major issues for Smash going forward and it's how it handles characters. It was that the most popular characters were guest characters. Sonic was popular for Brawl. Megaman was popular for Smash 4, and Pac Man was somewhat popular (though I think a lot of people didn't like the fact it could be awful "I'm a meme" Pac-Man.). With the inclusion of these three characters, most fans seem to think it was perfect. I remember hearing that the trio was just right. Of course, thereafter, Sakurai kept adding guest characters. Before the last Direct for Smash, I heard sentiment from Nintendo fans (such as the Nintendo sub reddit) that they just wanted Nintendo characters.

Sourcegaming did a poll before I left. One of the questions was "who would you cut." Besides the clones, the highest characters were Cloud, Corrin and Bayonetta. Ryu was slightly higher but nothing too crazy. Sonic, Megaman and Pac-Man were normal as well. I think the results show something we haven't considered. There is this assumption that we must add more guest characters because they are popular while Nintendo characters are not. But I think the reality was that fans never really wanted guest characters that much as they wanted guest characters that related to Nintendo.

Snake is a good example of this. Despite what some say now, Snake wasn't that missed when he was cut. In fact, everyone just kind of expected it. The whole missing Snake thing is only recent, and I'd argue characters like Wolf and Ice Climbers are characters fans want more. And look at which characters were the most popular. Sonic is considered Mario's rival. Megaman started on the NES. Pac-Man is a classic character who just kind of fits. Ryu at least had his big break on the SNES (but I don't think fans see it this way anymore which is why he's never been as popular). This is the same reason characters like Bayonetta and Cloud are so controversial. Even though, yes, there is no hard and fast rule they must be on a Nintendo system, fans expect it.

So back to something I mentioned before where everyone said: "we need guest characters because they are popular". Look at things now. The most popular characters are all Nintendo characters (the only exception may have been Snake who is a veteran now). Most of the major third parties series have been hit. And the biggest successes coming out of Japan are Nintendo. Animal Crossing New Leaf broke 10 million. Pokemon Sun and Moon broke 14 million. Breath of the Wild will likely sell 10 million. Splatoon is a big hit in Japan. Fire Emblem is having the best sales its seen in its history. And Mario is Mario. The most popular characters are Inkling and Decidueye. And now we are getting new IPs like ARMs and whatever else Nintendo shows off. But what guest characters are there? Bomberman maybe? Monster Hunter? There aren't a lot left, and I would argue fans are more touchy judging by how well Cloud and Bayo went over.

I don't want to say end guest forever. Although I personally want that, I understand that fighting games do this a lot. Mortal Kombat has them a lot. Tekken 7 is adding Akuma. Guest are kind of the thing. But the problem is you can't flood the game like they did with Smash 4 (out of the 18 new characters, 4 of them were guests. This is also being generous and including DP and Lucina).

Smash is about to be 20 years old. If I was to advise Sakurai, I'd give him two alternatives. Either A)Cut all the third party characters and just focus on Nintendo or B)Pick one REALLY good character and make them feel special. Nevertheless, the point is there needs to be a limiting on guests. Smash is a Nintendo All Star game, and it has to focus on that. Some would argue "Well, there are still a lot of Nintendo characters," but this is expected when every box advertises "Fight with Nintendo's all stars." With the next Smash Bros, there needs to be a focus on Nintendo.

This is something I've been pondering, so I thought I'd bring it up. Also, I know people hate when I bring it up, so sorry if it feels like I'm butting in. Not sure how active I'll be. Just poking around as the Source Gaming discord is getting boring.
Like everyone already said Ryu, Cloud are very popular and Bayo won the popularity contest. She's got a large cult following you will never see in Smash. Literally 100s of people that are members or guests in VGChartz have voted her early on. I know cos i witnessed the discussions and a seperate thread specifically for bayo support with a poll. She was all over the internet if you looked hard enough and was featured in many DLC wishlist vids, one of which she was #3 iirc and that watchmojo vid got almost a million views so it must have persuaded many to vote for characters inthat video. I could go on and on about this but Ive done it so much after the hilarious outrage and disbelief in smashboards when she got chosen.

Cutting 3rd parties is gonna do more harm than good. Having 1 3rd party and cutting the reat would be the most disappointing and shameful thing they could do for many. I don't get the mentally of too many 3rd parties when they make up like 8% of the roster...like...seriously? It may even be worse than cutting the same amount of 1st party characters.

Also I think there's still many big name icons out there. Snake, bomberman, simon belmont, monster Hunter, lara croft, dante, slime, rayman, ezio....the list goes on.

Yeah Nintendo still has some big names but those will always get a much better chance of getting in.
Sure, WayForward are spreading out quite a bit. They're an indie company, and I respect them wanting to make more money off the game, but y'all are really playing down Shantae's Nintendo legacy in favour of Shovel Knight here. She's already got 4 games playable on Nintendo consoles: 2 Ninty exclusives, 1 you could say was a timed Ninty exclusive, and 1 just released giving her fresh relevance.
As a concept too, Shantae is absolutely banging. I mean, a hair-whipping, transforming, belly-dancing half-genie? She dances, both literally and metaphorically. Half the characters in the game haven't got **** on this queen.
The creator of Shantae said it would be an honour to get her in Smash. though I suppose every 3rd party character contender has said the same thing, so that sorta loses effect. At least we know they're willing for her to be in the game.
Shovel Knight certainly gives her a run for her money, Ill give you that, but some people in here have got to give Shantae a fighting chance.
Despite no longer supporting Shantae or any indie for that matter, just wanted to say amen for the last part.
 
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And yeah this is a Nintendo All-Star fighting game but it's also a game for gaming icons. Nintendo has the biggest majority of the gaming icons and adding a few more from 3rd party companies isn't going to hurt anyone.
I just personally hope they actually stick with gaming icons and that Bayonetta was just an exception made due to the ballot.
No offence to anyone who is supporting non-icon third-parties.
 

Staarih

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Don't forget Nintendo publishing the game in Japan.
This fact alone makes me think Shovel Knight will get at least some appearance in a future Smash game, if not a playable character then a trophy or something - similar to Rayman getting a trophy in Smash 4 (Rayman Legends also having a similar story of being published by Nintendo for Wii U only in Japan). I mean, for how many random games do they have a an own specific web page?

Sure, Shovel Knight has strong ties with Nintendo anyway, with the amiibo and all, and I do feel like they're still trying to push it in Japan to some extent, with 3DS/Wii U getting the Specter of Torment update sooner than the rest of the world. I personally wouldn't mind Shovel Knight getting in Smash, would be kind of cool actually. What helps is that the games are critically well received, which I think helps, as a good game = popularity = recognition - obviously.

Shantae is awesome as well though. Pirate's Curse did get separate release in Japan and I think it did fairy well for what it is. I've seen it hit the Japanese eShop charts pretty high even in recent days/weeks, especially if any discounts are in place. I think Risky's Revenge was also localized in Japan thought not sure if it's anything to write home about. But it's something ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I actually think Shantae might be more recognized than Shovel Knight in Japan if only for her huge fan art potential (yeah...), but otherwise Shovel Knight might have an upper hand just because of a stronger relationship with Nintendo, business-wise at least (yes, Shantae has appeared in more games/platforms). Not to say that either of them have an especially strong chance of getting in Smash, but it's fun to think about.
 
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Diddy Kong

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I even wish they would cut Sonic, but that won't happen. I actually think a second Sonic character is pretty damn likely.
 
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