Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Morbi]

I see the "WTF N" character as the Wii Fit Trainer-esque WTF Nintendo addition. While I see a Hanafuda characer as the token surprise retro character. The additions I made are much like how Smash 4 selected its newcomers.

I honestly would not call Duck Hunt a huge surprise. The second I learned he was actually Nintendo, I figured it was given and the only real surprise was that it did not happen sooner (which was actually one of the only reasons I did not believe he was Nintendo, by the way).

 

[Deleted member]

I see the "WTF N" character as the Wii Fit Trainer-esque WTF Nintendo addition. While I see a Hanafuda characer as the token surprise retro character. The additions I made are much like how Smash 4 selected its newcomers.

Except Wii Fit Trainer wasn't added to fill some "WTF" slot. You're applying patterns where patterns don't exist.

 

[Morbi]

Except Wii Fit Trainer wasn't added to fill some "WTF" slot. You're applying patterns where patterns don't exist.

I honestly believe she was. She was not even a character until Sakurai made her one. It was literally an ambiguous mannequin-esque figure with a voice. I do not even believe the entity was referred to as a "Wii Fit Trainer." He was BLATANTLY trying to surprise people with that one. And to that end, given that R.O.B., I would argue there is definitely a pattern. We had this debate a long time ago and I really do not want to get into it again, but two is objectively a pattern. Sakurai DOES try to surprise us. That does not mean he will this time around. But there is good precedent to suggest that it is not a reach.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Except Wii Fit Trainer wasn't added to fill some "WTF" slot. You're applying patterns where patterns don't exist.

Well, I am very curious why you would think the "Wii Fit Trainer WTF" addition is not of its own potential newcomer category.

 

[Yoshi-Thomas]

Or peripherals are being represented by R.O.B. and Wii Fit Trainer?
I still want some Hanafuda representation.
For Labo, the problem is that this idea probably appeared in Nintendo's higher-ups sowhere around mid to late 2017, so I doubt a character would get his chance. A stage however? Damn.

 

[Morbi]

Or peripherals are being represented by R.O.B. and Wii Fit Trainer?

It does not matter. Laboman... Laboboy? Nintendo Labo, whatever, that thing is inevitable. Let's be real. Whether it is "wtf" or "peripheral" based, it is honestly one of the most likely characters and that scares "mii."

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Well, I am very curious why you would think the "Wii Fit Trainer WTF" addition is not of its own potential newcomer category.

Because for all we know it's a one time thing?

 

[King9999]

I've been conditioned to believe that there will be a WTF character in Smash 5. This has been ongoing since Melee. No reason to believe it won't happen with the new game.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Because for all we know it's a one time thing?

It could be, or the potential trend could continue on for this game possibly.

 

[Yoshi-Thomas]

It does not matter. Laboman... Laboboy? Nintendo Labo, whatever, that thing is inevitable. Let's be real. Whether it is "wtf" or "peripheral" based, it is honestly one of the most likely characters and that scares "mii."

I would love it, but probably for Smash 6. MAYBE as DLC. I doubt they thought that far ahead.

I've been conditioned to believe that there will be a WTF character in Smash 5. This has been ongoing since Melee. No reason to believe it won't happen with the new game.

>Implying the Falcon Punch is not the most WTFesque thing.

Maybe they could make an Amiibo character, but how?

 

[Deleted member]

I honestly believe she was. She was not even a character until Sakurai made her one. It was literally an ambiguous mannequin-esque figure with a voice. I do not even believe the entity was referred to as a "Wii Fit Trainer." He was BLATANTLY trying to surprise people with that one. And to that end, given that R.O.B., I would argue there is definitely a pattern. We had this debate a long time ago and I really do not want to get into it again, but two is objectively a pattern. Sakurai DOES try to surprise us. That does not mean he will this time around. But there is good precedent to suggest that it is not a reach.

Going by your last post, you are blatantly ignoring that Duck Hunt was the token surprise character (which is on record of being the case) simply because you personally didn't see it as a surprise.

Wii Fit Trainer was out of the blue, yes. But that has absolutely nothing to do with why she got in.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

It could be, or the potential trend could continue on for this game possibly.

But that's the thing. You're already saying there's a pattern for the so far one off thing

 

[papagenos]

Got any source on that?

I mean. WTF characters are called such for a reason

Source on that megaman was the most popular? I’m kinda just going off of my own memory of what people were saying back then but there was a poll sakurai did (might have been Japan only) back like pre brawl I think where megaman was second to sonic for most requested third party character, but that was a while back I think people used to cite that poll back before megaman was revealed tho... again this is all just my own memory of it

 

[Morbi]

Going by your last post, you are blatantly ignoring that Duck Hunt was the token surprise character (which is on record of being the case) simply because you personally didn't see it as a surprise.

Wii Fit Trainer was out of the blue, yes. But that has absolutely nothing to do with why she got in.

I guess. It is difficult to imagine that such an icon was neglected for so long, I definitely remember everyone else being shocked. It reminds me of when everyone thought that Phantom was an assist trophy instead of Zelda's down-special. So, to that end, I am sure some of it was surprise, but realistically, the surprise only existed because it defied their preconceived notions about what was likely. And to that end, I cannot control my perception about the character.

I am definitely not following. You are literally arguing that he was a token surprise character, and yet, you do not believe we might get another token surprise character? I mean, I believe the core of your argument is that it will not be a surprise for the sake of it, but in the end, it does not really matter. If Sakurai wants to make a move-set for whatever BluePikmin has on his roster, he will. I admit, I do not find it likely. The potential is absolutely there, however.

 

[Opossum]

Not every addition is the start of a new archetype.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, I am very curious why you would think the "Wii Fit Trainer WTF" addition is not of its own potential newcomer category.

Because one game doesn't make a pattern. And Wii Fit Trainer wasn't added with that purpose to begin with.

Even something like "token early female reveal" has more of a "pattern" that Inkling Girl happened to cover, though it's not one that should mean anything for the future since it's an irrelevant criteria.

(The pattern in which I'm talking about: -Inkling-)

EDIT: I literally don't know why I put Sheik instead of Peach. They were both revealed in the same day, but Peach was the first one shown.

 

[Yoshi-Thomas]

Who is going to be the new mob that we have to destroy?

-Polygon team
-Wireframe team
-Alloy team
-Mii Fighter team

I'd like mechas for a change.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Because one game doesn't make a pattern. And Wii Fit Trainer wasn't added with that purpose to begin with.

Even something like "token early female reveal" has more of a "pattern" that Inkling Girl happened to cover, though it's not one that should mean anything for the future since it's an irrelevant criteria.

(The pattern in which I'm talking about: -Inkling-)

Hmm... Do you see Wii Fit Trainer's addition being much of the same vein as Villager since they were both mentioned by Sakurai, mentioning the same reasons for those two in some interviews? A very popular franchise getting character representation "unfit for battle", yet have moveset potential that are unlikely to be considered by the majority of people? Is it coincidental in some way?

 

[Morbi]

Who is going to be the new mob that we have to destroy?

-Polygon team
-Wireframe team
-Alloy team
-Mii Fighter team

I'd like mechas for a change.

I see literally no reason to change it if Mii Fighters return. If they do not; however, they could combine the "sub-boss" and the "multi-man" and give us metal characters. There might have been an "event match" about that, now that I think about it. Probably where I got the idea.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Hmm... Do you see Wii Fit Trainer's addition being much of the same vein as Villager since they were both mentioned by Sakurai, mentioning the same reasons for those two in some interviews? A very popular franchise getting character representation "unfit for battle", yet have moveset potential that are unlikely to be considered by the majority of people? Is it coincidental in some way?

When was Wii Fit Trainer mentioned in the past?

 

[Pakky]

Brawl had Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard and Lucario with Mewtwo only being cut due to time constraints and Plusle and Minun possibly being scrapped characters. They ALMOST got a total of 8/9 different pokemon playable depending on how Plusle or Minun could have worked. So no, they aren't attatched to the '6 pokemon' thing

Yet only one came back for this game in the form of DLC making the total six again. So, I don't know.

Will it go over six? Maybe, I just don't see a reason why it would.

I would wager however gen 7 will not be on the roster at all, well other than Battle Bond Greninja I guess.

 

[BluePikmin11]

When was Wii Fit Trainer mentioned in the past?

https://nintendoeverything.com/saku...-bros-chose-order-of-character-announcements/

ND: Not only guest characters were shocking, but Wii Fit Trainer as well. It was a character no one saw coming, right?

MS: Yes, that’s right. Zero, none… (laughs)

(everyone laughs)

MS: For Super Smash Bros. Brawl, it was discussed that non-combatant-like characters wouldn’t be added, but this time an important aspect of the concept was “if that character is included, could interesting things be done and could that fighter express individual traits?” When making this game, it was necessary to think very seriously “how to create new fun things”. I was able to think in my head the way how Wii Fit Trainer and Villager would operate so therefore they were included. Games must be completed properly, and in order to have fun gameplay for you and your opponent, each character has to have individuality. The present Smash Bros. was done by giving importance to that.

I am assuming what Golden has to argue associates with this interview here.

 

[Crap-Zapper]

i wanna know what are your top 5 nintendo characters to be in smash 5. put from 1 to the most desired to 5 being the least desire.

1. ridley
2. isaac
3. king k rool
4. hades
5. decidueye

1. King K. Rool - No surprise there. He is my all time favourite most wanted newcomer.
2. Chibi-Robo - No doubt a cute little thing. Because of SSF2 my desires for him boosted.
3. Samurai Goroh - Favourite F-Zero pilot, and the true rival to Captain Falcon.
4. Lip - Loved the Puzzle League series.
5. Balloon Fighter - Retro I'd love to see. Could be the best air-game concept out there.

 

[Pakky]

Thinking about Battle Bond Greninja, I wonder would it be better to make it more of a mechanic than a Final Smash?

I mean the latter makes sense but I could see it being something else.

 

[Morbi]

Yet only one came back for this game in the form of DLC making the total six again. So, I don't know.

Will it go over six? Maybe, I just don't see a reason why it would.

I would wager however gen 7 will not be on the roster at all, well other than Battle Bond Greninja I guess.

That being said, if they were married to the concept, would they not have just put Mewtwo on the base roster and avoid adding a Pokemon for DLC. They technically have only five by default, which is, as you are most likely aware, not six. DLC does not count as that puts it into the hands of the consumer, and if they did that, it would defeat the purpose of a forced six that you seem to be implying exists.

 

[Bowserlick]

Possible Takamaru Mechanics

• Holding the jump button after the first jump, causes Takamaru to run on air for a set duration. His sandals
cause water ripple effects. A press of A will have him perform an air dash attack. After his charge, he falls down and can use aerials.

• Katana attacks fill a meter that upgrades each throwing weapon.

 

[Pakky]

That being said, if they were married to the concept, would they not have just put Mewtwo on the base roster and avoid adding a Pokemon for DLC. They technically have only five by default, which is, as you are most likely aware, not six. DLC does not count as that puts it into the hands of the consumer, and if they did that, it would defeat the purpose of a forced six that you seem to be implying exists.

Good point. I don't, I just find it odd that we've had two situations in which six pokemon were available on the roster under certain conditions being the aforementioned DLC and Pokemon Trainer's characters in Brawl.

It could go over that number the future but as of now, that remains to be seen.

 

[Morbi]

Possible Takamaru Mechanics

• Holding the jump button after the first jump, causes Takamaru to run on air for a set duration. His sandals
cause water ripple effects. A press of A will have him perform an air dash attack. After his charge, he falls down and can use aerials.

• Katana attacks fill a meter that upgrades each throwing weapon.

Cause water ripple effects... In the air? I am not usually one to argue logic in video-games, but I am going to need some science to explain that one.

Good point. I don't, I just find it odd that we've had two situations in which six pokemon were available on the roster under certain conditions being the aforementioned DLC and Pokemon Trainer's characters in Brawl.

It could go over that number the future but as of now, that remains to be seen.

The word that comes to mind is "coincidence." An interesting one, to be sure. I doubt it means anything; however, we shall see. If we only get six again, I am going to buy into your theory myself.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

https://nintendoeverything.com/saku...-bros-chose-order-of-character-announcements/



I am assuming what Golden has to argue associates with this interview here.

Blue the way you worded your post sounded like Sakurai spoke about the Wii Fit Trainer BEFORE Smash 4

The word that comes to mind is "coincidence." An interesting one, to be sure. I doubt it means anything; however, we shall see. If we only get six again, I am going to buy into your theory myself.

Then you two, would be acting like an idiot as again, Brawl nearly had 7 different Pokemon if you don't count PraMai as possibly Plusle and Minun

 

[LancerStaff]

Nana reacts to Popo for most of her attacks. Luma's attacks happen at the same time as Rosalina. And Nana is ESSENTIAL for Popo, they're the whole gimmick and can be immensely crippled. Rosalina losing Luma is bad yes but she's not horribly crippled for the rest of her stock if Luma dies. They aren't. The same. And people care about the Ice Climbers in Smash considering how many were upset that they were cut to begin with.

The timing isn’t a big deal. And Luma is 100% essential to Rosa. Luma regenerates, and ultimately that’s a healthier design choice than “oopsy I lost half my character lol might as well die now.”

There’s very few people upset with their exclusion. How much this topic cares varies by the hour. Honestly, where did you get this silly idea?

First lets chill out here. Secondly the icies are not a puppeteer they are a duo. Rosalina is a puppeteer. There are other characters in under night and in naruto games that act like rosalina. A puppeteer uses a tool separate from himself to extend his reach or set up traps. Often the puppet does nore damage. Sometimes the puppeteer cannot fight at all if the puppet is out of reach or dead.

The icies do not fit this description at all. They work as a tag team. I dont know of another character that works like they do. Icies are a strain on hardware that is true but they were a strain on 3ds not system hardware.

I see a lot of people talk about 8 player being cut, i dont thinj it will nintendo yas been about having couch multiplayer for years weve had 8 player mario party before and in this game its feasible. Its supposed to be choatic and mindless everyrhing isbt about the competitive scene. In college 8 player smash was so frequent for me it was mindless entertaining and social. Should it be cut from classic? Possibly. But removed altogether? I dont think so i mean coin mode is still here (half of you havent touched that since melee)

They are a puppeteer. There’s no such thing as a “duo” archetype. Perhaps one FGC or another calls characters one or the other, but they’re used interchangeably. It like saying an all-arounder is different from a jack of all trades. They are two characters controlled by one person. That’s a puppeteer. Sometimes the puppet is more of an inanimate object but it’s the gameplay that matters here. People have been calling ICies a puppet character since Melee was released.

Rosalina and Luma are a tag team. They’re quite literally two separate characters working together. The game refers to them as such.

IC's were entirely made because he was looking for a retro character with a unique gimmick, which is solely for their double character potential. They were cut for one reason; they could not work with the 3DS' limitations. You're projecting your own bias instead of accepting the reality of what actually happened and was hard explained to us. Please stop making up stuff to justify them not coming back, especially when it makes no sense. The only thing that was noted was inefficient was the transformation characters, but that's not actually why they were split, which was also 3DS limitations. He basically noted that keeping them separated was also a good idea for balance, so an afterthought that is taken into consideration(and why there's a good reason to believe transformation characters like Zelda/Sheik won't be combined again).

Now, them not working well in 8-player Smash is a legit possibility(but was irrelevant anyway since if they couldn't get in the 3DS version, they would never be in the Wii U version. It was both or nothing).

Puppeteer characters, fyi, fully control the other character. Rosalina controls Luma entirely. Popo does not always control Nana, who has her own advanced A.I. and consistently makes decisions for herself. They also play extremely differently design-wise. Rosalina also is a very capable character by herself, having many strong moves, while Popo is heavily nerfed without Nana, removing not only the ability to properly Recover via Up B(Belay), but also removes their combo moves(and it's not just chain-grabbing either. Don't forget de-syncing is a thing, which allows Nana to do her own thing, making them a very unique fighter in their capabilities).

Two characters =/= Puppeteer. For that matter, IC's were made with the idea that losing Nana actually matters. It barely matters with Rosalina in the same way. They were made with beyond different roles and gameplay in-mind.

You, of all people, telling me to cut the bias? That’s rich. I question how you even became a mod with how biased and wrong you often are.

There is no bias. The game is just better with them gone. It’s like Sakurai said about transformations...

You need to look at the timeline and think it through. What came first in Melee, 8p, or ICies? Well 8p I believe was planned from the beginning according to Sakurai, but even if that’s not you need to look at how ICies work. ICies literally use two character slots and there’s a special AI program for Nana. At any given moment there are 8 slots to be used in the game. If the ICies came first, they wouldn’t of been so inefficient or there would of been 16 slots programmed and optimized for. But obviously that’s not the case. So to salvage the work they added this puppet character and had other gimmicks where there would be lots of CPUs to beat up.

 

[Deleted member]

I am definitely not following. You are literally arguing that he was a token surprise character, and yet, you do not believe we might get another token surprise character? I mean, I believe the core of your argument is that it will not be a surprise for the sake of it, but in the end, it does not really matter. If Sakurai wants to make a move-set for whatever BluePikmin has on his roster, he will. I admit, I do not find it likely. The potential is absolutely there, however.

I am saying that Daitoryou already covers the same field as Duck Hunt, R.O.B., and Mr. Game & Watch before him on BluePikmin's roster.
To have that and another random character no one will see coming just because of Wii Fit Trainer as if there's some pattern she falls under is questionable.

 

[Pakky]

Speaking of Pokemon why does Lucario have that second rage meter thing in Smash?

 

[Morbi]

Blue the way you worded your post sounded like Sakurai spoke about the Wii Fit Trainer BEFORE Smash 4

Then you two, would be acting like an idiot as again, Brawl nearly had 7 different Pokemon if you don't count PraMai as possibly Plusle and Minun

"Too" by the way. Do not take the word of an idiot, however. I would run it by someone else because I am not trustworthy.

A lot of people contest those two (this one is the number version of the word "to") in particular. I am not going to get into it myself. All I am going to say is, under this hypothetical, perhaps there was a reason for their cut. Maybe it was because we would have gotten too many Pokemon?!

 

[StrangeMann]

I suspect the retro rep for this game could be someone unexpected: The Dragons from Bubble bobble.

Most retro reps that have been added to smash (Ice climbers, Duck Hunt, Pit, game and watch, rob, mega man, pac man) are characters with vibrant color schemes. Aside from pit, none of these characters have a complicated human-like appearance and have had series on hiatus for a long period of time at the time these characters are added to smash bros.

 

[Opossum]

The timing isn’t a big deal. And Luma is 100% essential to Rosa. Luma regenerates, and ultimately that’s a healthier design choice than “oopsy I lost half my character lol might as well die now.”

There’s very few people upset with their exclusion. How much this topic cares varies by the hour. Honestly, where did you get this silly idea?



They are a puppeteer. There’s no such thing as a “duo” archetype. Perhaps one FGC or another calls characters one or the other, but they’re used interchangeably. It like saying an all-arounder is different from a jack of all trades. They are two characters controlled by one person. That’s a puppeteer. Sometimes the puppet is more of an inanimate object but it’s the gameplay that matters here. People have been calling ICies a puppet character since Melee was released.

Rosalina and Luma are a tag team. They’re quite literally two separate characters working together. The game refers to them as such.



You, of all people, telling me to cut the bias? That’s rich. I question how you even became a mod with how biased and wrong you often are.

There is no bias. The game is just better with them gone. It’s like Sakurai said about transformations...

You need to look at the timeline and think it through. What came first in Melee, 8p, or ICies? Well 8p I believe was planned from the beginning according to Sakurai, but even if that’s not you need to look at how ICies work. ICies literally use two character slots and there’s a special AI program for Nana. At any given moment there are 8 slots to be used in the game. If the ICies came first, they wouldn’t of been so inefficient or there would of been 16 slots programmed and optimized for. But obviously that’s not the case. So to salvage the work they added this puppet character and had other gimmicks where there would be lots of CPUs to beat up.

If you don't think people were upset over losing the Ice Climbers, I'd like to know what rock you've been living under.

Hell, they're the only cut character that Sakurai has ever spoken about in interviews, just because the cut was that shocking.

 

[Pakky]

I suspect the retro rep for this game could be someone unexpected: The Dragons from Bubble bobble.

Most retro reps that have been added to smash (Ice climbers, Duck Hunt, Pit, game and watch, rob, mega man, pac man) are characters with vibrant color schemes. Aside from pit, none of these characters have a complicated human-like appearance and have had series on hiatus for a long period of time at the time these characters are added to smash bros.

 

[Morbi]

I suspect the retro rep for this game could be someone unexpected: The Dragons from Bubble bobble.

Most retro reps that have been added to smash (Ice climbers, Duck Hunt, Pit, game and watch, rob, mega man, pac man) are characters with vibrant color schemes. Aside from pit, none of these characters have a complicated human-like appearance and have had series on hiatus for a long period of time at the time these characters are added to smash bros.

They appear to be deformed Yoshi... I would definitely be interested in these creatures.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

"Too" by the way. Do not take the word of an idiot, however. I would run it by someone else because I am not trustworthy.

A lot of people contest those two (this one is the number version of the word "to") in particular. I am not going to get into it myself. All I am going to say is, under this hypothetical, perhaps there was a reason for their cut. Maybe it was because we would have gotten too many Pokemon?!

It works too as I am referring to you AND pakky

The timing isn’t a big deal. And Luma is 100% essential to Rosa. Luma regenerates, and ultimately that’s a healthier design choice than “oopsy I lost half my character lol might as well die now.”

There’s very few people upset with their exclusion. How much this topic cares varies by the hour. Honestly, where did you get this silly idea?



They are a puppeteer. There’s no such thing as a “duo” archetype. Perhaps one FGC or another calls characters one or the other, but they’re used interchangeably. It like saying an all-arounder is different from a jack of all trades. They are two characters controlled by one person. That’s a puppeteer. Sometimes the puppet is more of an inanimate object but it’s the gameplay that matters here. People have been calling ICies a puppet character since Melee was released.

Rosalina and Luma are a tag team. They’re quite literally two separate characters working together. The game refers to them as such.



You, of all people, telling me to cut the bias? That’s rich. I question how you even became a mod with how biased and wrong you often are.

There is no bias. The game is just better with them gone. It’s like Sakurai said about transformations...

You need to look at the timeline and think it through. What came first in Melee, 8p, or ICies? Well 8p I believe was planned from the beginning according to Sakurai, but even if that’s not you need to look at how ICies work. ICies literally use two character slots and there’s a special AI program for Nana. At any given moment there are 8 slots to be used in the game. If the ICies came first, they wouldn’t of been so inefficient or there would of been 16 slots programmed and optimized for. But obviously that’s not the case. So to salvage the work they added this puppet character and had other gimmicks where there would be lots of CPUs to beat up.

Oh right I forgot you're an incel who claimed Nintendo's fun family party game would cut characters for being low tier a week or so ago right? If Ice Climbers and Rosalina are the same, Mario and Cloud are the same because they're supposed to be characters who are easy to pick up and play

 

[Stratos]

John Raimi from the Geist if he comes as a newcomer, probably his attacks will be based on the weapons he has when he is in his own body, let alone when he has the equipment of the ghost's hunters or attacks from what he can and check when he comes out of his body.

 

[Morbi]

It works too as I am referring to you AND pakky

Oh right I forgot you're an incel who claimed Nintendo's fun family party game would cut characters for being low tier a week or so ago right? If Ice Climbers and Rosalina are the same, Mario and Cloud are the same because they're supposed to be characters who are easy to pick up and play

Oh, in that case, the rest of your sentence was even more jacked, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.

An incel? Is there an alternate definition to that word... I am not seeing how this applies now. However, I would argue that a person's opinion on an unrelated subject has no bearing on their other opinions unless they are directly related.