Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Senselessbreak]

So is pic related a way to keep Lucina fresh and different in a possible attempt to keep her around for the next Smash? I never played FEH, but I image this version of her was created with at least some thought for Smash Bros. Do any of the other 5 FE characters in Smash have big makeovers in FEH? I also doubt shes getting cut as well. Awakening was too big of a landmark for Fire Emblem and Lucina is still pretty popular. There's also the decent chance that Smash 5 reuses Smash 4's engine meaning no 1st party cuts, and plenty of time to add major tweaks to existing characters.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Unrelated but for the Mii costumes in Smash 4, King K. Rool's was the only one to receive new textures. Everyone else's costumes, to my knowledge, use their respective trophy's textures (if they had one of course). K. Rool was an outlier here, as he had textures that from a side-by-side comparison are much different than the ones he has on his trophy.

I doubt it actually means anything, but it is something to note.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I don't believe the results of the ballot. Didn't they call her first of the realisable characters? That means nothing because realisable is just an arbitrary word.

1. You are indeed a conspiracy theorist
2. That was probably just to mean "1st among cahracters who are not Shrek and Master cheif"

 

[Camc10]

She was first worldwide too though.

You are missing what they said afterwards.
"1st Worldwide out of negotiable and realizable characters."
They did choose Bayo, Im just saying there are characters that beat her, but couldn't be in the game for some reason.

1. You are indeed a conspiracy theorist
2. That was probably just to mean "1st among cahracters who are not Shrek and Master cheif"

You know, Master Chief was in a DoA game on the 3ds.

I believe they tried to pass her off as top 5. I obviously do not believe that myself, but that is the official release.

Top 5 in America and 1st in Europe.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

So is pic related a way to keep Lucina fresh and different in a possible attempt to keep her around for the next Smash? I never played FEH, but I image this version of her was created with at least some thought for Smash Bros. Do any of the other 5 FE characters in Smash have big makeovers in FEH? I also doubt shes getting cut as well. Awakening was too big of a landmark for Fire Emblem and Lucina is still pretty popular. There's also the decent chance that Smash 5 reuses Smash 4's engine meaning no 1st party cuts, and plenty of time to add major tweaks to existing characters.

I'd be pretty salty if they gave Lucina a lance instead of just putting in Ephraim.

 

[Senselessbreak]

Unrelated but for the Mii costumes in Smash 4, King K. Rool's was the only one to receive new textures. Everyone else's costumes, to my knowledge, use their respective trophy's textures (if they had one of course). K. Rool was an outlier here, as he had textures that from a side-by-side comparison are much different than the ones he has on his trophy.

I doubt it actually means anything, but it is something to note.

I think this is strong evidence work on him was started and for some unknown reason he was set aside. Theres no way he didn't score high on the ballot, and theres no way we won't see characters included this time around because of the ballot.

 

[Radical Bones]

1. You are indeed a conspiracy theorist
2. That was probably just to mean "1st among cahracters who are not Shrek and Master cheif"

Yeah, but as we don't know what they meant by realisable I'll continue to wear my tinfoil hat

 

[A Distant Demon]

You are missing what they said afterwards.
"1st Worldwide out of negotiable and realizable characters."
They did choose Bayo, Im just saying there are characters that beat her, but couldn't be in the game for some reason.

See my above post

You know, Master Chief was in a DoA game on the 3ds.

No he hasn't. A different Halo character was in a different DOA game though. And the point of that was for the "negotiable" part. Guess I should have used Sora lol

 

[Deleted member]

re·al·i·za·ble
ˌrēəˈlīzəb(ə)l/
adjective
adjective: realizable; adjective: realisable

1. 1.
   able to be achieved or made to happen.
   "such a dream, if it is realizable at all, is one for the far future"

Literally means that among all the characters that could actually be put into the game, she was the top spot worldwide.
EDIT: Ah, forgot one.

ne·go·ti·a·ble
nəˈɡōSH(ē)əb(ə)l/
adjective
adjective: negotiable

1. open to discussion or modification.
   "the price was not negotiable"

Literally means that among all the characters that could even be considered, she was the top spot worldwide.

 

[N3ON]

I don't understand why Bayonetta's exact placing matters so much. Even if she wasn't first among "realizable" characters, whatever the hell that means, the ballot never promised the most votes equated inclusion, and she clearly did very well. I'd rather we got a different character too (though my antipathy was mostly because I thought her crazy giraffe proportions would look bizarre and incongruous in the game, luckily somebody must've agreed), but hey, they're not done using the ballot as influence.

So who knows what's to come.

re·al·i·za·ble
ˌrēəˈlīzəb(ə)l/
adjective
adjective: realizable; adjective: realisable

1. 1.
   able to be achieved or made to happen.
   "such a dream, if it is realizable at all, is one for the far future"

Literally means that among all the characters that could actually be put into the game, she was the top spot worldwide.
EDIT: Ah, forgot one.

ne·go·ti·a·ble
nəˈɡōSH(ē)əb(ə)l/
adjective
adjective: negotiable

1. open to discussion or modification.
   "the price was not negotiable"

Literally means that among all the characters that could even be considered, she was the top spot worldwide.

oh **** its the dictionary

 

[GaroMaster]

She was first worldwide too though.

What always confused me about Bayonetta's inclusion was that they told us about her results in the U.S and Europe, but not Japan.
I realize it's neither here nor there since this whole thing happened about two years ago, but I just found it to be a strange omission.

 

[Senselessbreak]

You are missing what they said afterwards.
"1st Worldwide out of negotiable and realizable characters."
They did choose Bayo, Im just saying there are characters that beat her, but couldn't be in the game for some reason.

You know, Master Chief was in a DoA game on the 3ds.

Top 5 in America and 1st in Europe.

The 1st Worldwide is extremely misleading though since realizable and negotiable can mean just about anything. There are plenty that did better than her in the US (likely Shovel Knight or K Rool), and in Japan her place wasn't even notable so they withheld it. Most sample polls we had before her reveal had her in the top 20 (rarely top 10) often enough, so worldwide I imagine she ranked much lower than they want to reveal.

Theres probably a bunch of factors why she got chosen, such as relevancy, advertisement for Bayo 2/3 and maybe Sakurai is buddies with Kamiya. Also shes a Japanese created character, which isn't proven, but it appears Sakurai has some bias against selecting Western creations.

Obviously we aren't going to get Goku, but I imagine we will get around 2-3 of the characters that ranked within the top ten in this Smash game.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Most sample polls we had before her reveal had her in the top 20 (rarely top 10) often enough, so worldwide I imagine she ranked much lower than they want to reveal.

Or, you know, maybe fan polls are notoriously misleading, ripe for raiding, and fail to grow past their echochambers.

 

[Camc10]

re·al·i·za·ble
ˌrēəˈlīzəb(ə)l/
adjective
adjective: realizable; adjective: realisable

1. 1.
   able to be achieved or made to happen.
   "such a dream, if it is realizable at all, is one for the far future"

Literally means that among all the characters that could actually be put into the game, she was the top spot worldwide.
EDIT: Ah, forgot one.

ne·go·ti·a·ble
nəˈɡōSH(ē)əb(ə)l/
adjective
adjective: negotiable

1. open to discussion or modification.
   "the price was not negotiable"

Literally means that among all the characters that could even be considered, she was the top spot worldwide.

I just there that thier were probably a couple characters they got higher they were either of this 2 that could be in this game. Ridley for example. Its not that i dont think Bayo won, moreso that i feel there are characters above her that Sakurai just couldn't easily think about how they can work in Smash.

 

[Senselessbreak]

I just there that thier were probably a couple characters they got higher they were either of this 2 that could be in this game. Ridley for example.

They also said she ranked 5th on the US ballot, among cut characters (like Wolf or Snake). So the wording implies she either beat them or was in the top 5 with them. I honestly don't see her beating out Wolf since he got a lot of love around the ballot. Im thinking realizable was used broadly as a way of saying no veterans as fans might feel ripped off getting a character they've already gotten before.

Or, you know, maybe fan polls are notoriously misleading, ripe for raiding, and fail to grow past their echochambers.

Maybe. I mean plenty of characters with vocal fanbases have gotten into Smash. My concern with Bayonetta is that she did not appear to have a vocal fanbase during the ballot. I mean on Smashboards K Rool was popular, Reddit was Shovel Knight, Neogaf was Wonder Red, Tumblr was Chrom, Youtube (and Etikas fanbase) was Shovel Knight, I forget /v/ but theirs wasn't Bayonetta. In fact, I don't think any of them had Bayo near the top. Even PushDustIns research from Japanese websites did not imply she had a large volume of supporters.

Sure again echochambers, but if she was really as popular as Nintendo tried to sell us with broad words, how she didn't have her own echochamber?

 

[Mega Bidoof]

Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I don't believe the results of the ballot. Didn't they call her first of the realisable characters? That means nothing because realisable is just an arbitrary word.

Ugh, not this again...

Why do people think this? They directly stated that Bayonetta was the overall winner. What would Sakurai and Nintendo have to gain from lying about this? Do people actually think that Sakurai has some secret vendetta against K. Rool or wherever else you think "really won," to the point where he would make this big cover-up? They had the ballot to determine who is the most wanted character, and by extension, who would bring in the most money. By staging Bayonetta as the winner they have nothing to gain, and money to lose.


There's two options to explain why Bayonetta shockingly won:

1. The people who spend everyday, for multiple years, making sure this game is as good as it can be, lied to all the fans, just because they don't like a video game character, even though they would theoretically lose money by making a character who scored lower in the ballot the one you can buy.

2. The couple of dozen or hundred people that post on this forum are actually a really small sample size compared to millions of people that probably voted in the ballot.


Anyway, I still think the ballot was partially made for future Smash games, including the one we're getting this year. I am still fairly certain that K. Rool was up there (along with other characters they made into DLC costumes like Chrom and Lloyd Irving) and think he has a decent chance for this game.

But yeah, the ballot wasn't rigged. This isn't like a political election where someone has something to gain by rigging it. The only reason they would lie is because Sakurai hates a specific character that much. Even then, they could've just not named Bayonetta as the #1 winner if she wasn't and they wanted to hide it.

- Me, some 200 pages ago, to someone making the same claim

 

[Deleted member]

Am I the only one that thinks need buffs? Their kill-potential is lacking for an Angel character, and Dark Pit relies on side-b. Just make them able to kill earlier and I am happy. Pit honestly feels like the most under-whelming character in Smash Bros. Wii U and 3DS. I am not saying the Pits are a low tier though.

So to add on the speculation, I think an ARMS character is likely, even if the roster was decided in 2016. ARMS did have a ton of trailer information around late 2016 though. If an ARMS character does not appear, than very likely a DLC character.

 

[N3ON]

Dude if fan polls really meant much we would've gotten Isaac a long time ago. ;_;

 

[TheSpitefulWolf]

yall still goin on about that smash ballot eh

why you bein dumb? they didn't release any data aside from what they said about bayo, for all we know ****ing homer simpson walked away with 99.9% of the vote and bayo got that .1% and that's what mattered

smash ballot is literally nothing in smash 5, let it go

 

[Senselessbreak]

Dude if fan polls really meant much we would've gotten Isaac a long time ago. ;_;

Perhaps, but whos to say he won't get this time because of the ballot. I mean look at Melee's poll back in the day:

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/03/23/if-there-were-a-smash-2-poll/

Out of the 14 newcomers, 10 made it in off the poll. And since then, another 9 got added. So it appears Sakurai takes polls to great consideration. I mean Sonic got in Brawl because he scored so high in their internal polling.

 

[Radical Bones]

smash ballot is literally nothing in smash 5, let it go

Nah, there's no way they ain't using that data to pick newcomers in Smash 5. Sorry, it's too valuable to them - it's literally the characters all the fans want.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Nah, there's no way they ain't using that data to pick newcomers in Smash 5. Sorry, it's too valuable to them - it's literally the characters all the fans want.

More notably, it was noted the Smash Ballot will be used for future games. It's blatantly relevant to Smash Switch just as much as it was for Smash 4.

Of course, we don't know the data, but the idea that it helped pick some newcomers in Smash Switch is entirely reasonable.

 

[Danpal65]

Am I the only one that thinks need buffs? Their kill-potential is lacking for an Angel character, and Dark Pit relies on side-b. Just make them able to kill earlier and I am happy. Pit honestly feels like the most under-whelming character in Smash Bros. Wii U and 3DS. I am not saying the Pits are a low tier though.

Absolutely. Their only "kill" move really is to spam Side-B, which just makes them bland and repetitive. I know it was partially due to a different Up-B and the glide mechanic in Brawl, but Pit there felt so much more mobile, and his Side-B was fun to use. The two of them definitely need a fix.

 

[A Distant Demon]

They also said she ranked 5th on the US ballot, among cut characters (like Wolf or Snake). So the wording implies she either beat them or was in the top 5 with them. I honestly don't see her beating out Wolf since he got a lot of love around the ballot. Im thinking realizable was used broadly as a way of saying no veterans as fans might feel ripped off getting a character they've already gotten before.



Maybe. I mean plenty of characters with vocal fanbases have gotten into Smash. My concern with Bayonetta is that she did not appear to have a vocal fanbase during the ballot. I mean on Smashboards K Rool was popular, Reddit was Shovel Knight, Neogaf was Wonder Red, Tumblr was Chrom, Youtube (and Etikas fanbase) was Shovel Knight, I forget /v/ but theirs wasn't Bayonetta. In fact, I don't think any of them had Bayo near the top. Even PushDustIns research from Japanese websites did not imply she had a large volume of supporters.

Sure again echochambers, but if she was really as popular as Nintendo tried to sell us with broad words, how she didn't have her own echochamber?

Tumblr AND gaf both love/loved Bayo.

But that isnt the point. All of the hardcore communities combined dont mean **** when it comes to the casual fanbase that actually matters. And even then, those hardcore communites are so big that even the majorities arent that big (For every 1 k rool fan here, there are 10 other members, minimum)


The faster that smashers realize that all of their fan polls and all of their fanbases are an extreme minority, the better.

Am I the only one that thinks need buffs? Their kill-potential is lacking for an Angel character, and Dark Pit relies on side-b. Just make them able to kill earlier and I am happy. Pit honestly feels like the most under-whelming character in Smash Bros. Wii U and 3DS. I am not saying the Pits are a low tier though.

So to add on the speculation, I think an ARMS character is likely, even if the roster was decided in 2016. ARMS did have a ton of trailer information around late 2016 though. If an ARMS character does not appear, than very likely a DLC character.

Nah. Pit/Dark Pit are really great at being the jacks of all trades. I wouldnt mind a bit of a change to their recovery but ehh.

 

[TheSpitefulWolf]

but we don't know WHAT the smash ballot data actually is, so it still might as well not exist

yeah you voted k.rool or whatever but maybe inklings were up there on the ballot too and they decided to say 'eh **** it run with it'

or you voted ridley and the whole smash team had a good laugh before deciding not to put wolf in just to ****ING SPITE ME

y'know, magic ****.

 

[Lyndis_]

You know, Master Chief was in a DoA game on the 3ds.

Was a different Spartan II, Nicole-458.

(Also not in the 3DS DoA, was 4 for the 360.)

Samus, however, did make a cameo in the 3DS game. Ridley also appeared as a direct stage hazard iirc.

 

[Danpal65]

Perhaps, but whos to say he won't get this time because of the ballot. I mean look at Melee's poll back in the day:

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/03/23/if-there-were-a-smash-2-poll/

Out of the 14 newcomers, 10 made it in off the poll. And since then, another 9 got added. So it appears Sakurai takes polls to great consideration. I mean Sonic got in Brawl because he scored so high in their internal polling.

LOL at more people wanting Slippy in Smash over Wolf.

 

[Onua]

People on this thread legit think that Steve, and Sans are likely

What has this world come to.

 

[N3ON]

yall still goin on about that smash ballot eh

why you bein dumb? they didn't release any data aside from what they said about bayo, for all we know ****ing homer simpson walked away with 99.9% of the vote and bayo got that .1% and that's what mattered

smash ballot is literally nothing in smash 5, let it go

Don't be spiteful.

 

[Lyndis_]

People on this thread legit think that Steve, and Sans are likely

What has this world come to.

I don't think Steve is likely but I think he and the success and impact his game has had very obviously have merits that make him at least feasible.

Sakurai himself loves the game, even. Enough to write about how much he likes it on Famitsu at least.

I'm fairly certain nobody here actually believes Sans is likely beyond a "technically possible since they've appeared on a Nintendo console" level. Even then, Undertale came out way too late to even be considered.

 

[Radical Bones]

LOL at more people wanting Slippy in Smash over Wolf.

Mr. Saturn got more votes than:

Geno
Zelda
Sheik
Young Link
Meta Knight
Falco
Slippy
Wolf
Peppy
Diddy Kong
Pit
Ice Climbers
Sonic
Mega Man
Crash
Bomberman

What is this poll.

 

[Senselessbreak]

but we don't know WHAT the smash ballot data actually is, so it still might as well not exist

yeah you voted k.rool or whatever but maybe inklings were up there on the ballot too and they decided to say 'eh **** it run with it'

or you voted ridley and the whole smash team had a good laugh before deciding not to put wolf in just to ****ING SPITE ME

y'know, magic ****.

The poll did have a disclaimer that said your votes may be made public in the future, so maybe someday Nintendo will make a database that lets you filter everything and read everyones hand written comments.

 

[TheSpitefulWolf]

Don't be spiteful.

kinda in my contract that i signed with sakuraicorp. gotta rep

 

[N3ON]

Perhaps, but whos to say he won't get this time because of the ballot. I mean look at Melee's poll back in the day:

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/03/23/if-there-were-a-smash-2-poll/

Out of the 14 newcomers, 10 made it in off the poll. And since then, another 9 got added. So it appears Sakurai takes polls to great consideration. I mean Sonic got in Brawl because he scored so high in their internal polling.

Well fan polls and the official ballot aren't the same. If a fan poll could acquire the promotion a Nintendo Direct garners, those results would be a fair bit more prudent. I never said discount the ballot, but we shouldn't read too closely into fan polls when trying to accurately predict it.

Also, fwiw, back in Melee days there were a fair few characters that still needed to be on the roster, as opposed to now where things seem much more nebulous.

but we don't know WHAT the smash ballot data actually is, so it still might as well not exist

yeah you voted k.rool or whatever but maybe inklings were up there on the ballot too and they decided to say 'eh **** it run with it'

or you voted ridley and the whole smash team had a good laugh before deciding not to put wolf in just to ****ING SPITE ME

y'know, magic ****.

It's a leap in logic to say that because we don't know it, it doesn't matter. We're not as integral to the development of Smash as those who are privy to the results. These types of things have proved quite influential to past rosters.

People on this thread legit think that Steve, and Sans are likely

What has this world come to.

Are people really raising Sans seriously all that much in here?

 

[Camc10]

People on this thread legit think that Steve, and Sans are likely

What has this world come to.

I honestly think Undertale (the port) is too new to get in.

 

[TheSpitefulWolf]

It's a leap in logic to say that because we don't know it, it doesn't matter. We're not as integral to the development of Smash as those who are privy to the results. These types of things have proved quite influential to past rosters.

you aint hearin me. i'm not saying the roster was dumb, i'm saying we can't use it to speculate for **** because the data out of it is so ****ing bad. all we ****ing know is what they said about bayo. we can guess, but invoking the ****ing roster just to say 'k. rool/ridley/geno/sans/whatever-the-****' is in is a dumb-dumb move.

again, for all we know, the inklings were the ballot winner 'cause i recall them mother****ers were hella popular round 2014-2015.

 

[Deleted member]

Nah. Pit/Dark Pit are really great at being the jacks of all trades. I wouldnt mind a bit of a change to their recovery but ehh.

The Pits do need a buff, though. Their hitboxes are actually smaller than they appear in Smash 4.

Pit has no ground pokes, aerial frame data equivalent to Ike with hitboxes like this:

Spoiler

Tragedy

and a hyper linear nuetral game.

The Pits just needs... "more" in Smash for Switch. I am not saying the Pits are low tiers, the Pits are just bland mid tier. The Pits are the most underwhelming characters in Smash 4. Also that recovery can be changed I guess, but I do not know either.

People on this thread legit think that Steve, and Sans are likely

What has this world come to.

I can see why Steve is likely, but Sans... I do not know.
Steve is a megaton Microsoft character. If we are getting a Microsoft, it is Steve for sure. Steve is something a lot of young children love, and he is family friendly.

 

[Radical Bones]

The Pits do need a buff, though. Their hitboxes are actually smaller than they appear in Smash 4.

This is very true. I always find it pretty difficult to land a lot of his moves.

 

[Senselessbreak]

Mr. Saturn got more votes than:

Geno
Zelda
Sheik
Young Link
Meta Knight
Falco
Slippy
Wolf
Peppy
Diddy Kong
Pit
Ice Climbers
Sonic
Mega Man
Crash
Bomberman

What is this poll.

Its interesting because out of the 62 (not counting the "someone from" votes) nominated characters in this poll, 19 became playable in Smash, 4 become pokeball pokemon, and we got got playable Ivysaur over Bulbasaur. Mr Saturn become an item, 4 became assist trophies, 6 stage hazards or stage elements, and 1 got a costume in Smash 4. So that means out of that poll 36/62 got representation, and thats not including regular trophies. 8 are 3rd parties as well. So this poll ultimately had a big impact on the series overall.

I imagine the recent ballot will be used for many Smash elements going forward.

 

[Lyndis_]

I'd like to see Pit and Dark Pit use some more items from Uprising. Just way too many of their smash attacks and moves in general are the Palutena/Silver Bow. Almost every single move is, really. I think there's 3 moves total that aren't?

It's really boring and a little sad considering just how much there is to work with from Uprising, which Sakurai himself should obviously be aware of.

Note that these are just the base weapon types and there are tons of different weapons in each category that could function differently.