Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Troykv]

Well...I've thought about it before.

This was the very first fan roster I ever uploaded to the internet, back in 2009.

Looks very solid; I like it :D

Specially because it has Micaiah on it.

 

[Fenriraga]

Honestly, if it doesn't shoot realistic bullets it might be okay. I mean, Diddy's got the peanut popgun--because it functions so differently from a real firearm, nobody'd even think about penalizing it.

Then again, I also shot a commercial a few weeks ago where we specifically had to say 'archers' instead of 'snipers', because even that was too similar to actual gun violence to be advertiser friendly. When it comes to ratings, most of it is just guesswork and it's not really consistent.

Ray's assist trophy in Brawl didn't use any noticeabley damning weapons in that regard. Plus, Custom Robo Arena for the DS was rated E10, so it can be done.

 

[LordJackal]

Ray's assist trophy in Brawl didn't use any noticeabley damning weapons in that regard. Plus, Custom Robo Arena for the DS was rated E10, so it can be done.

Yeah, I'd say Roy is toy-like enough that his guns wouldn't be taken as depictions of real gun violence. If they could have him in as an assist, it shouldn't be a huge deal to have him playable.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

The winner of the last Binding Blade poll was the king Zephiel. Sophia and Narcian were proven to be decently popular. Fae plain flopped.

Next up will be the first Blazing Sword poll and I know this one will be heated because it involves three certain Fire Emblem Lords. Your choices are Lyn, Hector, Eliwood, and Hawkeye.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

And begin!

 

[Gunla]

BTW, is there a new version of Roster Maker out? My version seems to be on the blink.

From what I'm aware, Jakor, the creator, is currently working on finalizing a new features and releasing it within the next week or so, in addition to including a variety of updates and new character icons.

The most recent version is 9.1, updated in April of 2015.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Ray's assist trophy in Brawl didn't use any noticeabley damning weapons in that regard. Plus, Custom Robo Arena for the DS was rated E10, so it can be done.

Well the statement I brought wasn't necessarily saying a mech, like Ray, with a gun will be in the game. Sakurai only stated he bought the mech toy for the gun model specifically. Of course it can be worked in a way that doesn't exactly operate like a real gun, just making the point that ESRB is concerned about guns and Sakurai needed a specific gun model for something in Smash.

 

[Senselessbreak]

If Kos-Mos got in, would she be first party since Takahashi created her? I'm trying to find out who actually owns the copyrights to her. I see Namco getting special thanks in the credits but they actually helped design blades in the game. So did Tetsuya Nomora so Square Enix got credited as well. Its kinda like Geno where his rights belongs with the creator not the publisher, so I imagine Takahashi has full rights to her. Also Namco sold the rights of Monoltih Soft to Nintendo. Its like how Microsoft bought Rare and now owns their original games like Conker and Banjo, so I'd say shes 1st party. And if he doesn't, its not like it would really matter since Namco is probably working on this game again.

I see her as an AT or at the very least a trophy, but then again shes been in a bunch of fighting games by now and would make a great addition.

 

[Fenriraga]

Well the statement I brought wasn't necessarily saying a mech, like Ray, with a gun will be in the game. Sakurai only stated he bought the mech toy for the gun model specifically. Of course it can be worked in a way that doesn't exactly operate like a real gun, just making the point that ESRB is concerned about guns and Sakurai needed a specific gun model for something in Smash.

I am very much aware of that.

Which is why I wrote that statement with a strikethrough.

Because it was a joke.

 

[Originality]

Labo Man idea strikes again!
It's genius

#laboman4smash pic.twitter.com/nErBUaBkEY

— Javed L Sterritt (@JavedLSterritt) March 19, 2018

Labo's been a funny joke, but I'd really support him if he'd be like that

 

[Roberk]

I rlly don't get the sword complaint. That is like complaining about so many brawlers. Most sword units play differently, what is the problem.

Yeah mostly it’s just an excuse people grab at to whine about FE characters. It does raise a point though, we can have so much more from FE: Ephraim with a lance, Hector with an axe, different types of magic, archers... While most swords might actually play differently, other weapons would bring entirely new styles to the table.

 

[Opossum]

The winner of the last Binding Blade poll was the king Zephiel. Sophia and Narcian were proven to be decently popular. Fae plain flopped.

Next up will be the first Blazing Sword poll and I know this one will be heated because it involves three certain Fire Emblem Lords. Your choices are Lyn, Hector, Eliwood, and Hawkeye.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

And begin!

Ninian would've made much more sense as the fourth pick over Hawkeye, imo.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I am very much aware of that.

Which is why I wrote that statement with a strikethrough.

Because it was a joke.

And I never said you were suggesting Ray would be playable, but you brought up that it had been in the game as an AT and didn't cause an issue. It was a general example of character with gun because it was already brought up in our discussion, plus you brought the point of Custom Robo Arena's rating. I was just differentiating Custom Robo's gun situation from the fact that Sakurai needed a specific gun model for something. I'm pretty sure you just read the first sentence of that reply and stopped.

 

[Lyndis_]

Unused Petey piranha animations file was found in smash Wiiu
Do you think boss battle will return this time?

I'd hope so.

I think Petey was probably meant as a stage boss similar to what they did with Ridley.

 

[Ivander]

Labo Man idea strikes again!
It's genius

#laboman4smash pic.twitter.com/nErBUaBkEY

— Javed L Sterritt (@JavedLSterritt) March 19, 2018

Not entirely sure why, but this reminds me of AGES from Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed.

 

[Opossum]

Speaking of Fire Emblem though, I figured I'd share another moveset I made. In this case, one for a character with basically no shot of getting in nowadays, but hey. It's all for fun. It's also my take on how a mounted character could work in Smash.

Spoiler

Caeda Flies In!​

Moveset

Jab: Caeda strikes twice with her spear and then twirls it.
Dash Attack: Caeda performs an aerial corkscrew into the opponent.
Side Tilt: Caeda swings the Wing Spear downward from overhead.
Up Tilt: Caeda's pegasus bumps her upward off its back while she holds her spear skyward.
Down Tilt: Caeda's pegasus flaps its wings downward, with each up and down movement causing minor damage.

Side Smash: Caeda's pegasus charges forward with Caeda's Wing Spear held outward.
Up Smash: Caeda's pegasus faces toward the screen and bucks its back legs upward.
Down Smash: Caeda's pegasus rears up and stomps its hooves, bringing down its wings for a two-part smash attack.

Neutral Aerial: Caeda's pegasus does a quick midair somersault, doing minor damage.
Forward Aerial: Caeda lunges forward with her Wing Spear, doing heavy damage.
Back Aerial: Caeda turns her pegasus around to strike the opponent with a backhanded spear attack.
Up Aerial: Caeda raises her lance and twirls it in a helicopter spin. A multihit move.
Down Aerial: Caeda's pegasus kicks its hooves downwards, potentially causing a meteor effect.

Grab and Pummel: Caeda's pegasus bites onto the opponent while Caeda strikes them with her Wing Spear for a pummel.
Forward Throw: Caeda's pegasus charges into them, sending them flying.
Back Throw: Caeda whistles, making her pegasus swing its head, tossing the foe backward before bucking them with its back hooves.
Up Throw: Caeda scoops the foe up with her Wing Spear and stabs them as they're sent skyward.
Down Throw: Caeda's pegasus "counts" on the foe several times before stomping on them.

Specials:

Neutral Special: Armorcrusher - In Fire Emblem Shadow Dragon and New Mystery of the Emblem, Caeda was given a signature weapon, the Wing Spear. Like the rapier, this was effective against heavily armored and units on horseback. In Smash, this translates to her Neutral Special. In this chargeable attack, Caeda's pegasus flies backwards into the air, preparing to charge, before rushing forward and downward with Caeda's Wing Spear extended. This not only does heavy shield damage, but it also breaks through any enemy super armor when fully charged. However, the charging animation leaves Caeda vulnerable to attack. This move is named after a lance skill from Shadows of Valentia.

Side Special: Tempest Lance - Based on a skill for the Steel Lance from Shadows of Valentia, this attack involves Caeda drawing her lance and holding it outward. From its tip shoot a gust of razor wind similar to Mega Man's Air Shooter. A multihit projectile that travels horizontally with a maximum range of roughly the length of half of Final Destination. Like Greninja's Water Shuriken, it carries the opponent within it until it reaches its maximum range.

Up Special: Wings of Talys - This move has Caeda's pegasus perform a rising corkscrew attack before then gliding diagonally downward in the direction Caeda is facing. A simple recovery that can also be used as an attack.

Down Special: Hit and Run - Once again, this is named after a lance skill found in a Shadows of Valentia, though it is also a very common skill for flying units in Fire Emblem Heroes. In this attack, Caeda does a quick burst maneuver in which her pegasus flies at the opponent before making an immediate u-turn. This makes it an effective get-off-me tool on land. In the air, however, this attack gains a minor homing effect and can double as an offensive horizontal recovery. She will strike the foe before rushing back in the direction she came from, making this quite a potent edge guarding tool, further establishing Caeda's aerial dominance.

Final Smash: Queen of the Skies - Caeda breaks open the Smash Ball and is then capable of free, uninterrupted flight. She can charge into her foes for damage, similar to Super Sonic, but she can also toss spears toward the ground beneath her with the the attack button. Caeda also is much more durable while this move is being performed. After a set amount of time, the move ends.


Gameplay Overview:
Caeda is the first Smash fighter to fight while riding a mount (in this case, her pegasus). Due to this, she is one of the largest fighters in the game. Her pegasus stands at right about Bowser's height, which is slightly shorter than Fire Emblem's mounts usually are, but is just fine for Smash. The wings of the pegasus are also slightly downsized, but not to a ridiculous degree.

For those concerned about potentially having a character with canonically unlimited flight, I feel the need to point out that in Fire Emblem, Pegasus Knights do not have unlimited flight. This is shown by the fact that despite it being higher than most other classes, there still exists a cap for movement on a Pegasus Knight. Not to mention that in more recent games, their mounts are often shown landing after combat.

As far as ledge mechanics, which can become awkward with mounted characters, Caeda herself grabs the ledge while her pegasus flies next to her, off on the z-axis where it no longer counts as a hit box. Caeda's get-up attack, ledge jump, and ledge roll animations all feature her remounting her pegasus during the attack, making the transition seamlessly fluid.

Caeda has the highest air speed in the game due to speed being her best stat by far in her own games (she'll often cap her speed stat before promoting to an advanced class). In addition, she has a minor added gimmick similar to Bowser Jr.'s. Energy-based projectiles (such as Robin's Thoron) will have their damage greatly reduced when striking Caeda, but physical projectiles (like Link's arrows) will do more damage than normal, referencing Caeda's incredibly high Resistance and low Defense, in addition to the Pegasus Knight class's arrow weakness by proxy.

Why Caeda? Who is she?
Realistically Caeda likely won't make the cut, but that doesn't mean she isn't without merits of her own.

Caeda is arguably the second most important playable protagonist from Marth's games (Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light, Mystery of the Emblem, and their remakes, Shadow Dragon and New Mystery of the Emblem). She is playable right from the beginning and is responsible for recruiting a large portion of Marth's army (in Shadow Dragon, other than Marth himself, anyone that can recruit characters only recruits one other character...Caeda recruits five). And at the end of Shadow Dragon, she becomes Marth's fiancée, while at the end of New Mystery, she is crowned Queen alongside Marth as King.

Caeda is also the most important character in the series of the Pegasus Knight class line, an iconic Fire Emblem class that has existed since the beginning of the series. Caeda also gets lots of promotion from Intelligent Systems in comparison to most other Fire Emblem characters, especially of those who existed before Awakening gave the series more widespread appeal. She has a fair share of merchandise of her own, such as her own Nendoroid figure. She has been getting more attention as of late as well, now having Fire Emblem Warriors under her belt, as well as having received her own unique weapon upgrade in Fire Emblem Heroes.

Caeda, while unlikely, isn't without merit or importance, and could offer a fighting style unlike anything else in Smash.

Bonus Material:

Entrance Animation:
Caeda flies in on her pegasus as it rears up and whinnies.

Taunts:
Up Taunt: Caeda raises her lance and says "Throw down your weapon!"
Side Taunt: Caeda pets the head of her pegasus as it whinnies.
Down Taunt: Caeda tosses her hair back and says "What a shame."

Victory Animations:
Victory 1: Caeda flies in on her pegasus and says "A lovely battle."
Victory 2: Caeda brushes her pegasus as a small bird lands on her finger.
Victory 3: Caeda leaps from her pegasus and twirls her Wing Spear, saying "Don't underestimate me!"

Victory VS Marth: Victory Pose 3, except she says "I hope I didn't hurt you too badly" before smiling.

[/center]

 

[Deleted member]

Speaking of Fire Emblem though, I figured I'd share another moveset I made. In this case, one for a character with basically no shot of getting in nowadays, but hey. It's all for fun. It's also my take on how a mounted character could work in Smash.

Spoiler

Caeda Flies In!​

Moveset

Jab: Caeda strikes twice with her spear and then twirls it.
Dash Attack: Caeda performs an aerial corkscrew into the opponent.
Side Tilt: Caeda swings the Wing Spear downward from overhead.
Up Tilt: Caeda's pegasus bumps her upward off its back while she holds her spear skyward.
Down Tilt: Caeda's pegasus flaps its wings downward, with each up and down movement causing minor damage.

Side Smash: Caeda's pegasus charges forward with Caeda's Wing Spear held outward.
Up Smash: Caeda's pegasus faces toward the screen and bucks its back legs upward.
Down Smash: Caeda's pegasus rears up and stomps its hooves, bringing down its wings for a two-part smash attack.

Neutral Aerial: Caeda's pegasus does a quick midair somersault, doing minor damage.
Forward Aerial: Caeda lunges forward with her Wing Spear, doing heavy damage.
Back Aerial: Caeda turns her pegasus around to strike the opponent with a backhanded spear attack.
Up Aerial: Caeda raises her lance and twirls it in a helicopter spin. A multihit move.
Down Aerial: Caeda's pegasus kicks its hooves downwards, potentially causing a meteor effect.

Grab and Pummel: Caeda's pegasus bites onto the opponent while Caeda strikes them with her Wing Spear for a pummel.
Forward Throw: Caeda's pegasus charges into them, sending them flying.
Back Throw: Caeda whistles, making her pegasus swing its head, tossing the foe backward before bucking them with its back hooves.
Up Throw: Caeda scoops the foe up with her Wing Spear and stabs them as they're sent skyward.
Down Throw: Caeda's pegasus "counts" on the foe several times before stomping on them.

Specials:

Neutral Special: Armorcrusher - In Fire Emblem Shadow Dragon and New Mystery of the Emblem, Caeda was given a signature weapon, the Wing Spear. Like the rapier, this was effective against heavily armored and units on horseback. In Smash, this translates to her Neutral Special. In this chargeable attack, Caeda's pegasus flies backwards into the air, preparing to charge, before rushing forward and downward with Caeda's Wing Spear extended. This not only does heavy shield damage, but it also breaks through any enemy super armor when fully charged. However, the charging animation leaves Caeda vulnerable to attack. This move is named after a lance skill from Shadows of Valentia.

Side Special: Tempest Lance - Based on a skill for the Steel Lance from Shadows of Valentia, this attack involves Caeda drawing her lance and holding it outward. From its tip shoot a gust of razor wind similar to Mega Man's Air Shooter. A multihit projectile that travels horizontally with a maximum range of roughly the length of half of Final Destination. Like Greninja's Water Shuriken, it carries the opponent within it until it reaches its maximum range.

Up Special: Wings of Talys - This move has Caeda's pegasus perform a rising corkscrew attack before then gliding diagonally downward in the direction Caeda is facing. A simple recovery that can also be used as an attack.

Down Special: Hit and Run - Once again, this is named after a lance skill found in a Shadows of Valentia, though it is also a very common skill for flying units in Fire Emblem Heroes. In this attack, Caeda does a quick burst maneuver in which her pegasus flies at the opponent before making an immediate u-turn. This makes it an effective get-off-me tool on land. In the air, however, this attack gains a minor homing effect and can double as an offensive horizontal recovery. She will strike the foe before rushing back in the direction she came from, making this quite a potent edge guarding tool, further establishing Caeda's aerial dominance.

Final Smash: Queen of the Skies - Caeda breaks open the Smash Ball and is then capable of free, uninterrupted flight. She can charge into her foes for damage, similar to Super Sonic, but she can also toss spears toward the ground beneath her with the the attack button. Caeda also is much more durable while this move is being performed. After a set amount of time, the move ends.


Gameplay Overview:
Caeda is the first Smash fighter to fight while riding a mount (in this case, her pegasus). Due to this, she is one of the largest fighters in the game. Her pegasus stands at right about Bowser's height, which is slightly shorter than Fire Emblem's mounts usually are, but is just fine for Smash. The wings of the pegasus are also slightly downsized, but not to a ridiculous degree.

For those concerned about potentially having a character with canonically unlimited flight, I feel the need to point out that in Fire Emblem, Pegasus Knights do not have unlimited flight. This is shown by the fact that despite it being higher than most other classes, there still exists a cap for movement on a Pegasus Knight. Not to mention that in more recent games, their mounts are often shown landing after combat.

As far as ledge mechanics, which can become awkward with mounted characters, Caeda herself grabs the ledge while her pegasus flies next to her, off on the z-axis where it no longer counts as a hit box. Caeda's get-up attack, ledge jump, and ledge roll animations all feature her remounting her pegasus during the attack, making the transition seamlessly fluid.

Caeda has the highest air speed in the game due to speed being her best stat by far in her own games (she'll often cap her speed stat before promoting to an advanced class). In addition, she has a minor added gimmick similar to Bowser Jr.'s. Energy-based projectiles (such as Robin's Thoron) will have their damage greatly reduced when striking Caeda, but physical projectiles (like Link's arrows) will do more damage than normal, referencing Caeda's incredibly high Resistance and low Defense, in addition to the Pegasus Knight class's arrow weakness by proxy.

Why Caeda? Who is she?
Realistically Caeda likely won't make the cut, but that doesn't mean she isn't without merits of her own.

Caeda is arguably the second most important playable protagonist from Marth's games (Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light, Mystery of the Emblem, and their remakes, Shadow Dragon and New Mystery of the Emblem). She is playable right from the beginning and is responsible for recruiting a large portion of Marth's army (in Shadow Dragon, other than Marth himself, anyone that can recruit characters only recruits one other character...Caeda recruits five). And at the end of Shadow Dragon, she becomes Marth's fiancée, while at the end of New Mystery, she is crowned Queen alongside Marth as King.

Caeda is also the most important character in the series of the Pegasus Knight class line, an iconic Fire Emblem class that has existed since the beginning of the series. Caeda also gets lots of promotion from Intelligent Systems in comparison to most other Fire Emblem characters, especially of those who existed before Awakening gave the series more widespread appeal. She has a fair share of merchandise of her own, such as her own Nendoroid figure. She has been getting more attention as of late as well, now having Fire Emblem Warriors under her belt, as well as having received her own unique weapon upgrade in Fire Emblem Heroes.

Caeda, while unlikely, isn't without merit or importance, and could offer a fighting style unlike anything else in Smash.

Bonus Material:

Entrance Animation:
Caeda flies in on her pegasus as it rears up and whinnies.

Taunts:
Up Taunt: Caeda raises her lance and says "Throw down your weapon!"
Side Taunt: Caeda pets the head of her pegasus as it whinnies.
Down Taunt: Caeda tosses her hair back and says "What a shame."

Victory Animations:
Victory 1: Caeda flies in on her pegasus and says "A lovely battle."
Victory 2: Caeda brushes her pegasus as a small bird lands on her finger.
Victory 3: Caeda leaps from her pegasus and twirls her Wing Spear, saying "Don't underestimate me!"

Victory VS Marth: Victory Pose 3, except she says "I hope I didn't hurt you too badly" before smiling.

[/center]

I have barely any idea on what FE is and I love this move-set. The game references look creative and I like the idea of how you gave a description of the character instead of just making the move-set. You should make more move-sets.
Also "A lovely battle" needs to be some kind of phrase that makes it in in Smash Bros.
Well done.

 

[mario123007]

I understand that, but to me it's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison. Just because Nintendo is more open to mature games on Switch doesn't mean they're open to Smash being a more mature game, you know?

I partially disagree on you "comparing apples to oranges statement..." we already see some Nintendo game don't get censored like the most heated discussed Xenoblade 2, and Odyssey gets E10+ rating, which is highest for main Mario game. Also as more people are getting those mature, HARDCORE games (Doesn't have to be mature) , then you will see Nintendo slowly start to make some games that is for mature audiences while keeping it suitable for everyone, which in my opinion is possible.

And duh, it's not like Smash Switch will be bloody all of sudden... just keep in mind if they do stay at E10+, then the few chance we will get third party characters like Travis Touchdown, Doom guy, Bayonetta back etc... even so some might get either censored or have their abilities tone down like how many people "bet" it will happen (Even though it's just their wish...for some reason).

Like in films, when Deadpool was a huge R-rated hit for Fox, it opened up the doors for R-rated movies to take more chances budget-wise, because they realized people were willing to pay to see it regardless of rating. BUT, that being said, it doesn't mean that studios are suddenly going to take kid's properties and make them R-rated because "R-rated sells." An environment (as you've described with Nintendo) that's more open to mature doesn't mean each property is going to start going mature. That's all.

Obviously not in a significant way, but you now sort of see from the Smash Bros Switch trailer... which Mario and Botw Link are up to some dark aura thing...
Once again, Smash Bros was never deem as "for kids", hell 3DS/Wii U marketing commercial were panned for being to kiddy and childish. So therefore, I highly recommend most people to stop using Nintendo Wii U/3DS game... direction...formula...mindset and put it on how they do with Nintendo Switch.
Also we might just miss the point... mature content alone can't sell obviously, we all know that. Nintendo just need to keep making Smash Bros appeal to everyone (hard core Smashers, casual fans, and the rest of people who likes to play good games), it will be a huge hit regardless of its rating...

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Compare that to Fire Emblem where every character we've gotten so far largely uses a sword. Yes, even Robin and Corrin. They're all tall humans (compared to the shorter stature of Mario for example) who all have poor frame data to make up for their range, the heaviest of them is Ike with the rest being rather similar (within 8 units of weight from each other). This, I feel, is why people have a bigger issue with more FE characters compared to more Pokemon, plus Pokemon is a bigger franchise anyways. I don't even fully feel that an axe user would change things up too much since an axe is swung in a largely similar manner to a sword, albeit heavier. Lances have it a bit easier due to their extra range and higher focus on stabbing and then a full mage, archer, stone wielder or to a lesser extent knife wielder would all play far more different than any other FE character we've gotten so far.

Blame IS for constantly focusing on swords for the main characters. Fire Emblem itself has always poorly represented the diversity it has by having the faces of the FE games be sword-users. The promotion Fire Emblem has is even worse in how skewed it is towards swords

Spoiler: Swords swords everywhere

Which is the big difference between Pokemon and Fire Emblem is that in the former's case Pokemon a variety of different types are heavily promoted whereas in the latter swords are heavily emphasized above all else. So naturally, Smash is going to reflect that

t's far more the latter than the former. Were it not, more people would have a problem with the fact that of the 7? Mario and DK reps, at least 4 play near-identically, with character size and landing options being the main differentiators. That said, part of it could also be that the FE characters are all pretty visually congruent, excepting Corrin and maybe Robin.

Nah, Corrin, is pretty visually similar to Marth, Roy and Lucina given that he also aesthetically fits into the whole "noble warrior FE protagonist" stereotype, particularly in terms of facial and body structure. Ike is definitely more distinct from Marth than Corrin in terms of design.

 

[Morbi]

I rlly don't get the sword complaint. That is like complaining about so many brawlers. Most sword units play differently, what is the problem.

The inherent issue is that is actually more or less false. The real reason people get annoyed at sword users is not because of the swords, it is because they DO play similarly. Marth has two clones, Lucina and Roy, while in Smash 4 they diversified him a bit, he still has the base of a clone. Corrin is the most different and she still shares a few moves, nothing serious. After that, we take a look at Shulk, a character many thought was a Project M mod of Roy because of their similarities. Seriously, he even has Dolphin Slash. But "ooh, he can press it again to swipe, so UNIQUE!" Shulk's only real difference relative to the other Fire Emblem characters is the Monado arts which are just multiplier influencers. This leads me to my last point, Ike, while wholly unique, at least when compared to the other Fire Emblem characters not named Robin, rounds up the "we all have counters and everyone but Roy has a charge neutral special. These facts ALL add up to the perception.

Beyond the Fire Emblem-esque swordsmen, you have Link and his TWO clones throughout the series history, Young Link and Toon Link. Now look, I do not want to get into an argument, but YL and TL are objectively different. Feel free to disagree and ignore facts as some do; however, you have to admit from a perception perspective, which is what creates the "too many swords" argument, that is another 3 redundant play-styles.

Lastly, Pit and Dark Pit. You see the problem? What you see as 9 play-styles, most people, including myself, obviously, see 3. Perhaps 3 and a half because Shulk does have a few major differences relative to the other examples. But you can even throw Meta Knight into this category, on similarities, because well, and this is merely opinion, surely one shared by people who believe that we are over-saturated with boring sword users. Neither of them even feel like sword users because they are jumping around swinging the swords like pool noodles. That is purely based on a "sensation" and therefore I do not count it. Just something to note.

Oh, wait, I forgot about the most egregious example of them all, Mii Swordfighter. Ugh...

That leaves, what, Robin, who only really throws her sword as a "unique" attribute as everything else is a slash or a jab. She is hardly even a sword user in the first place, but it does not help when most of her attacks using it are generic. Ike, while caught in Fire Emblem tradition, can be forgiven similarly to how many forgive Wolf or Lucas. And Cloud, who I have no problem with.

So, based on this rating, we can say that there are only 5 DEFINITIVELY unique sword users and about 7 passable out of 15. The roster is 60 (58-9 when counting YL) rounded up which means approximately a quarter of the characters use them. One third are unique, about half are workable.

Furthermore, Sakurai WAS planning on adding Chrom; however, he could not think of a unique move-set and went with the character that could offer so much more. To that end, I have a feeling we will see a similar prioritization moving forward. I can understand if you disagree, that is fine. Most people always point out that characters can punch or whatever straw man; however, hopefully this break down that I wasted my time on at least enables you do "get" the sword complaint. It is coming from somewhere. People are not just randomly hating on swords. Some of the most popular characters in the game use swords. The problem is with how they are handled. And they are NOT handled as they are in Soul Calibur, not by a ****ing long-shot.

 

[J0eyboi]

In Smash 4 and only Smash 4 do they have those kill confirms. Even then, those were part of a patch. DK's kill confirm also works a bit differently from Bowser.

DK has a much better grab game than Bowser last I checked.

Again, armored invincibility was more of a 4 thing. Either way that doesn't make them remotely the same character, by that logic Marth and Ike are extremely similar because they both have a counter. They are also not the only characters to get armor, not by a longshot.

And you seem to be talking purely from a competitive standpoint. Having SLIGHTLY similar quirks in competitive does not make them the same by any means. Design wise, Bowser is meant to tank, and DK is meant to be a good Meteor Smasher. That's their intended logic, anyway.

First of all, Meteor Smasher isn't a class, they're called tech-chasers in Melee and bad in Sm4sh, also Falcon and Ganon do that better. Tank is even less of a thing, but Ganon is still better at it.

Second of all, I was referring to only Smash 4. They're much more different in other games, and they're much more terrible in other games. Also, arm invuln doesn't stand for armor, it literally just means "their arms can't be hit during these moves."

Third, I said they play similarly, not that they're semi-clones. Lucas and Samus play similarly, but that doesn't make Lucas a semi-clone of Samus. In fact, Ness, the character Lucas is a semi-clone of, plays nothing like Lucas except that they both kill you with backthrow sometimes.

Fourth, this is a stupid argument about semantic bull**** that ultimately doesn't matter and which your opinion on is probably decided by your interest in competitive play and how much you value aesthetics vs function, both of which are incredibly subjective. As such, it's completely pointless to argue further about it as neither will ever convince the other of their position.

Nah, Corrin, is pretty visually similar to Marth, Roy and Lucina given that he also aesthetically fits into the whole "noble warrior FE protagonist" stereotype, particularly in terms of facial and body structure. Ike is definitely more distinct from Marth than Corrin in terms of design.

I meant overall, and while Corrin's design looks very similar to the other lords, s/he also turns into a dragon, which is a pretty big distinguisher.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Ninian would've made much more sense as the fourth pick over Hawkeye, imo.

True rue, Ninian will definitely be next with some other fan favorites (Nino anyone?).

 

[ColietheGoalie]

...just keep in mind if they do stay at E10+, then the few chance we will get third party characters like Travis Touchdown, Doom guy, Bayonetta back etc... even so some might get either censored or have their abilities tone down...

...and I am 100% fine with this. I've never been a fan of getting hyper-violent/sexualized/foul-mouthed Third-Party characters shoe-horned into Smash, so that would be a benefit in my eyes.

Obviously not in a significant way, but you now sort of see from the Smash Bros Switch trailer... which Mario and Botw Link are up to some dark aura thing...
Once again, Smash Bros was never deem as "for kids", hell 3DS/Wii U marketing commercial were panned for being to kiddy and childish. So therefore, I highly recommend most people to stop using Nintendo Wii U/3DS game... direction...formula...mindset and put it on how they do with Nintendo Switch.
Also we might just miss the point... mature content alone can't sell obviously, we all know that. Nintendo just need to keep making Smash Bros appeal to everyone (hard core Smashers, casual fans, and the rest of people who likes to play good games), it will be a huge hit regardless of its rating...

I know Smash Bros isn't "for kids" per se, but it does aim to be fun for all ages. Honestly, it's nice having a fighting game where I can play with anyone, even little kids, without having to explain "why that lady has no clothes on?" or "did that guy just rip his spine out??"

But as you said, Smash will sell like crazy regardless of E10 or T ratings, so it's all probably moot until we get more information

 

[masterluigi1]

Bowser and DK play similarly if you are trying to play them competitively. If you don't, then yes they are very different on the surface.
I don't know how many of you follow(ed) competitive Smash 4, but they do indeed play very similarly.
similar gameplan =/= (semi)clone. I'm assuming that wasn't the argument?

I, too, would prefer if their gameplan wasn't really similar. I feel like there's more ways to make the heavies good than just making them have a gameplan similar to DK (he did first, then Bowser got a grab combo/kill confirm in another patch).

I've followed the competitive scene and still I dont see how they play similar at all. I feel like people just FEEL that they are similar because they are some of the only heavy characters but in reality they are not similar at all, not even at a competitive level.

 

[Morbi]

...and I am 100% fine with this. I've never been a fan of getting hyper-violent/sexualized/foul-mouthed Third-Party characters shoe-horned into Smash, so that would be a benefit in my eyes.


I know Smash Bros isn't "for kids" per say, but it does aim to be fun for all ages. Honestly, it's nice having a fighting game where I can play with anyone, even little kids, without having to explain "why that lady has no clothes on?" or "did that guy just rip his spine out??"

But as you said, Smash will sell like crazy regardless of E10 or T ratings, so it's all probably moot until we get more information

It is "per se." I apologize, usually I hate correcting people; however, this one in particular gives me the compulsion to correct it. Totally uncontrollable.

Honestly, with the up-skirts of old and with Bayonetta now in the game, I feel like Smash is actually worse than most fighting games outside of anime fighters. Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter (only because of Cammy, really) notwithstanding.

 

[Polan]

Once again, Smash Bros was never deem as "for kids", hell 3DS/Wii U marketing commercial were panned for being to kiddy and childish.

1. Sakurai has said multiple times that Smash Bros is meant for everyone, including kids.
2. Who panned Smash 4's marketing as childish?

 

[Cosmic77]

The inherent issue is that is actually more or less false. The real reason people get annoyed at sword users is not because of the swords, it is because they DO play similarly. Marth has two clones, Lucina and Roy, while in Smash 4 they diversified him a bit, he still has the base of a clone. Corrin is the most different and she still shares a few moves, nothing serious. After that, we take a look at Shulk, a character many thought was a Project M mod of Roy because of their similarities. Seriously, he even has Dolphin Slash. But "ooh, he can press it again to swipe, so UNIQUE!" Shulk's only real difference relative to the other Fire Emblem characters is the Monado arts which are just multiplier influencers. This leads me to my last point, Ike, while wholly unique, at least when compared to the other Fire Emblem characters not named Robin, rounds up the "we all have counters and everyone but Roy has a charge neutral special. These facts ALL add up to the perception.

Beyond the Fire Emblem-esque swordsmen, you have Link and his TWO clones throughout the series history, Young Link and Toon Link. Now look, I do not want to get into an argument, but YL and TL are objectively different. Feel free to disagree and ignore facts as some do; however, you have to admit from a perception perspective, which is what creates the "too many swords" argument, that is another 3 redundant play-styles.

Lastly, Pit and Dark Pit. You see the problem? What you see as 9 play-styles, most people, including myself, obviously, see 3. Perhaps 3 and a half because Shulk does have a few major differences relative to the other examples. But you can even throw Meta Knight into this category, on similarities, because well, and this is merely opinion, surely one shared by people who believe that we are over-saturated with boring sword users. Neither of them even feel like sword users because they are jumping around swinging the swords like pool noodles. That is purely based on a "sensation" and therefore I do not count it. Just something to note.

Oh, wait, I forgot about the most egregious example of them all, Mii Swordfighter. Ugh...

That leaves, what, Robin, who only really throws her sword as a "unique" attribute as everything else is a slash or a jab. She is hardly even a sword user in the first place, but it does not help when most of her attacks using it are generic. Ike, while caught in Fire Emblem tradition, can be forgiven similarly to how many forgive Wolf or Lucas. And Cloud, who I have no problem with.

So, based on this rating, we can say that there are only 5 DEFINITIVELY unique sword users and about 7 passable out of 15. The roster is 60 (58-9 when counting YL) rounded up which means approximately a quarter of the characters use them. One third are unique, about half are workable.

Furthermore, Sakurai WAS planning on adding Chrom; however, he could not think of a unique move-set and went with the character that could offer so much more. To that end, I have a feeling we will see a similar prioritization moving forward. I can understand if you disagree, that is fine. Most people always point out that characters can punch or whatever straw man; however, hopefully this break down that I wasted my time on at least enables you do "get" the sword complaint. It is coming from somewhere. People are not just randomly hating on swords. Some of the most popular characters in the game use swords. The problem is with how they are handled. And they are NOT handled as they are in Soul Calibur, not by a ****ing long-shot.

Pretty much this. It's not necessarily the quantity of the sword users that bothers me as much as it is the way they're handled.

Sword characters have the potential to be even more unique if they didn't rely on their sword for EVERY standard attack. How many characters have an up-Smash that involves swinging their sword over their head in an arch? How many characters have a down-Smash that involves quickly swinging the sword in front and behind themselves? It gets to a point where you feel like you're playing as the same character but with different swings. With brawlers, not every attack relies on a punch. Some characters use kicks, some use head-butts, and others use quick slaps. Quite a few have similar moves to other characters, but at least there's enough variation to make you feel like you're playing a radically different character. That's what I want to see with sword users; more variety in their moveset.

 

[Superyoshiom]

All these people asking for more third parties, and I feel like I'm one of the few guys who, if anything, want a reduction in how many third-party characters we already have. Sonic, Mega Man, and Pacman are perfect by themselves. Anything else I feel is too excessive.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I just remembered one more WiiU game without representation in Smash.

Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE aka the posterchild for the unsellable concept.

 

[Morbi]

1. Sakurai has said multiple times that Smash Bros is meant for everyone, including kids.
2. Who panned Smash 4's marketing as childish?

There is a difference between "for kids" and "kid friendly."

I am a nobody, but I will throw my hat into the ring, not only was the marketing childish, it was downright terrible.

 

[masterluigi1]

First of all, Meteor Smasher isn't a class, they're called tech-chasers in Melee and bad in Sm4sh, also Falcon and Ganon do that better. Tank is even less of a thing, but Ganon is still better at it.

Second of all, I was referring to only Smash 4. They're much more different in other games, and they're much more terrible in other games. Also, arm invuln doesn't stand for armor, it literally just means "their arms can't be hit during these moves."

Third, I said they play similarly, not that they're semi-clones. Lucas and Samus play similarly, but that doesn't make Lucas a semi-clone of Samus. In fact, Ness, the character Lucas is a semi-clone of, plays nothing like Lucas except that they both kill you with backthrow sometimes.

Fourth, this is a stupid argument about semantic bull**** that ultimately doesn't matter and which your opinion on is probably decided by your interest in competitive play and how much you value aesthetics vs function, both of which are incredibly subjective. As such, it's completely pointless to argue further about it as neither will ever convince the other of their position.

I'm sorry but this argument about Bowser and DK being similar to play as is just silly. Literally the only thing similar about them is their weight. At the competitive level they are looked at even more different.

 

[ColietheGoalie]

It is "per se." I apologize, usually I hate correcting people; however, this one in particular gives me the compulsion to correct it. Totally uncontrollable.

Fixed

 

[Onua]

Just for fun I'm going to make a checklist now and see how much I get right or wrong by the games release.
Why? Cause why not lol.

> Springman or Ribbongirl is added
> Rex or Pyra is added
> Takamaru is added
> Fossil Fighter is added
> A new 3rd party rep of some kind, maybe Crash
> King K Rool
> Wolf and Ice Climbers come back
> Decidueye is added
> DLC outfits of some kind added
> More clones this time around

Now we wait and see what happens <~<

 

[Morbi]

All these people asking for more third parties, and I feel like I'm one of the few guys who, if anything, want a reduction in how many third-party characters we already have. Sonic, Mega Man, and Pacman are perfect by themselves. Anything else I feel is too excessive.

There are two reasons I want more third-party characters. First, there are hardly any all-star Nintendo characters left. Some people seem to believe that there are hundreds left and yeah, I am not even going to bother touching that notion. Outside of the forgotten ones from last time around, King K. Rool and Ridley, we only have newer characters to look at (Spring Man, FE, X2, Pokemon, possibly Metroid and whatever Retro is working on), and another Mario character, such as... Waluigi, Daisy, or Toad. Yeah, like I said, bottom of the barrel. That is the only reason I am not even suspecting a lot of cuts to be real. Imagine them cutting an actual all-star for, well, whatever people are asking for nowadays.

Furthermore, if Sakurai uses ballot results or past requests, we are looking at Shovel Knight, Geno, or Rayman. None of which I particularly like. I want a third-party character to call my own, mang. Ryu was the closest, because I love fighting games. He does not control well at all though.

Either way, I agree that it is excessive, but the alternative is throwing in a bunch of second rate Nintendo characters or D-Listers which are not exactly the marketing catnip that Nintendo is seeking.

 

[Wyoming]

All these people asking for more third parties, and I feel like I'm one of the few guys who, if anything, want a reduction in how many third-party characters we already have. Sonic, Mega Man, and Pacman are perfect by themselves. Anything else I feel is too excessive.

I agree with you. I was content with the base game 3. I accepted Ryu. I found Cloud unexpected and around the time it got excessive. Bayonetta was the icing on the cake although she won the ballot so I can't complain too much.

I don't think Cloud is coming back and question marks remain on Ryu but if hypothetically those 2 got cut and we had one newcomer third party I would be fine with it. It depends how big the roster will be, of course but based on the current number we have that's something I desire.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I'm sorry but this argument about Bowser and DK being similar to play as is just silly. Literally the only thing similar about them is their weight. At the competitive level they are looked at even more different.

I've followed competitive Smash for 8 years, as well as taken part in plenty of tournaments. I think the characters are very different overall. But both of them do have a really strong grab game, and they both have an up throw up air B&B (cargo up throw for DK). They both kind of play that heavyweight grappler role, but the way they play neutral is very different. I don't think they feel the same at all, personally. I just think to an inexperienced viewers eye, they look like they have the same common kill option that they focus on.

 

[Superyoshiom]

There are two reasons I want more third-party characters. First, there are hardly any all-star Nintendo characters left. Some people seem to believe that there are hundreds left and yeah, I am not even going to bother touching that notion. Outside of the forgotten ones from last time around, King K. Rool and Ridley, we only have newer characters to look at (Spring Man, FE, X2, Pokemon, possibly Metroid and whatever Retro is working on), and another Mario character, such as... Waluigi, Daisy, or Toad. Yeah, like I said, bottom of the barrel. That is the only reason I am not even suspecting a lot of cuts to be real. Imagine them cutting an actual all-star for, well, whatever people are asking for nowadays.

Furthermore, if Sakurai uses ballot results or past requests, we are looking at Shovel Knight, Geno, or Rayman. None of which I particularly like. I want a third-party character to call my own, mang. Ryu was the closest, because I love fighting games. He does not control well at all though.

Either way, I agree that it is excessive, but the alternative is throwing in a bunch of second rate Nintendo characters or D-Listers which are not exactly the marketing catnip that Nintendo is seeking.

But here's the thing: So what if we get less newcomers? We've been given so much with the past Smash games, and I think we've hit a perfect amount of Nintendo characters. And we do have a few newcomers that still can be added (Rex and Pyra, Bandanna Dee, an Arms character, decidueye, etc.), but even if we get about 7 characters, so long as they're pure Nintendo characters and not clones I won't complain.

The time spent on excessive third party newcomers can be spent on reworking veteran movesets. Ganondorf, Wario, Jigglypuff, the list goes on for tweaks that can be made for characters already in the game. And characters like Bayonetta, Cloud, and Ryu can still be represented through trophies like how Rayman was a trophy in the last game.

Now the only third party I currently have a problem with is Bayonetta (nothing against the character, I just believe her significance isn't high enough as a third party character even when compared to other controversial choices like Ryu and Cloud), but if we continue adding third parties for quantity over quality, then it's only a matter of time before Minecraft Steve gets added in.

 

[Applebutter61]

I think I'm gonna weigh in on the DK/Bowser discussion here.

How the two characters themselves play is not near as similiar as their playstyle. The playstyle of heavy character such a Bowser, DK, and other heavies is a "wait and punish" tactic. This would imply that people who use heavies as a main have a patient stlye of play, keeping cool while taking hits and keeping on the lookout for the opponent to make a mistake.

Edit: I can't spell style

 

[Pacack]

Does anyone else want some serious tweaking on the light/heavy tilt inputs for Ryu? That's the biggest problem I have with the character.

 

[Morbi]

But here's the thing: So what if we get less newcomers? We've been given so much with the past Smash games, and I think we've hit a perfect amount of Nintendo characters. And we do have a few newcomers that still can be added (Rex and Pyra, Bandanna Dee, an Arms character, decidueye, etc.), but even if we get about 7 characters, so long as they're pure Nintendo characters and not clones I won't complain.

The time spent on excessive third party newcomers can be spent on reworking veteran movesets. Ganondorf, Wario, Jigglypuff, the list goes on for tweaks that can be made for characters already in the game. And characters like Bayonetta, Cloud, and Ryu can still be represented through trophies like how Rayman was a trophy in the last game.

Now the only third party I currently have a problem with is Bayonetta (nothing against the character, I just believe her significance isn't high enough as a third party character even when compared to other controversial choices like Ryu and Cloud), but if we continue adding third parties for quantity over quality, then it's only a matter of time before Minecraft Steve gets added in.

So what? So I would be less happy. I highly doubt I am alone. I play the game for its characters, I do not care about the gimmicky modes that borderline unplayable or hundreds of trophies that wikis replaced over a decade ago. The stages, while nice, are also nearly unplayable. In Smash 64, I could play every stage. In Melee, I can play about 75% of the stages, in Brawl, it went down to a bit under 50% (which is why I used the stage creator to its fullest). In Smash 4, there are a few I can play without resorting to Omega mode (because the stage creator is complete garbage). It is going downhill or I am getting less tolerant and have some weird nostalgia bubble that follows me when I replay those games.

I would rather have clones myself. But again, that is because my excitement for the series comes from characters. I would rather they be Melee or Brawl clones, as opposed to Smash 4's literal interpretation of the definition. But I would accept either. I want to play as Daisy, not Peach with a tan and bad hair dye.

This, I agree with more than you could ever know.

Trust me, I do not want that either, fam. I am just recognizing reality. We are at the rope's end and they are not making this game to make a good game. They are making it for monetary gain and to further their relationships with other companies which will... Make them more money.

 

[Jubileus57]

Now the only third party I currently have a problem with is Bayonetta (nothing against the character, I just believe her significance isn't high enough as a third party character even when compared to other controversial choices like Ryu and Cloud), but if we continue adding third parties for quantity over quality, then it's only a matter of time before Minecraft Steve gets added in.

I don't personally see Bayonetta as a regular third party, instead more like Nintendo's foster child. Nintendo has been trying their damnest to revive her series which was left to rot by the other publishers, and have fully funded two out of her three games. Look at the Game Awards: their big reveal was actually entirely focused on Bayonetta with the port from the first two games and the brand new third one. I think that even if she is not as iconic as Ryu or Cloud, she is far more relevant to Nintendo than they will ever be.

Then again this is just my opinion. But I think that she deserves her spot as a character which has been important to Nintendo the past few years.