Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Swamp Sensei]

Not timing.

Are we sure about that?

When was this Smash's roster decided?

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

When I start hearing things like "Characters should be drafted based on their individuals merits and not their [marginalized characteristic]" I just shake my head. At this point, when you have Cloud Strife and Bayonetta in the same roster, you can't really draw comparisons of who deserves a slot over who. They jumped the shark a long time ago. And the pool of 'deserving' characters is so large that there is no way to be fair about the selection process, so just go for the inclusive option. Those kinds of characters are never going to get representation otherwise.

Although I wouldn't ever go with a Xenoblade character because those are LAME

 

[ColietheGoalie]

Also Elma has double blade guns, so representation aside, I’m sure a cool moveset could be made from that

 

[Deleted member]

Balloon Fighter and Excitebiker are less retro than Little Mac though. As I said before, the Excite series got 2 Wii titles as well as a Wiiware title in 2009 after Punchout for Wii, plus a stage in Mario Kart. And Balloon Fight had the Tingle DS game, a world in Nintendo Land in 2012 plus many other cameos. So I said before Nintendo continues to use them and its only a matter of time before Sakurai or whoever is in charge puts them in a Smash title due to their legacy with Nintendo.

Oh, they're "less retro than Little Mac"?

Then you just killed your entire argument since they wouldn't be added as "NES era characters" to begin with.

And if they were denied when they were in the running for token NES character in Melee, literally why would they even be considered for anything other than what they've already had in Smash if they have had several times now to be considered and rejected as more relevant franchises?

Hell, Balloon Fight got a STAGE this time around, but no Ballon Fighter character to go with it. Instead, Villager got the Balloon Fighter's helmet as an Up Secial, with said helmet being used to "represent" the Masterpiece of Balloon Fight.
And this was after Balloon Fight had both an item in Melee that was scrapped for Brawl AND the fish from the game serving as a stage hazard for AN UNRELATED FRANCHISE in Brawl.
So it would seem that's as far as that "legacy" as you call it will take it.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Are we sure about that?

When was this Smash's roster decided?

Probably about a year after Xenoblade Chronicles X was initially released in Japan.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Probably about a year after Xenoblade Chronicles X was initially released in Japan.

That would mean she has perfect timing then right?

Or at least better timing than Rex currently?

 

[Arcanir]

Are we sure about that?

When was this Smash's roster decided?

If I were to guess, somewhere in 2016 as Brawl's roster was drafted early on in production in 2005 and we know Sakurai started his project at least a month after DLC was wrapped up. If Smash Switch is the same, then its roster was probably mostly decided by the time the year came to a close.

Edit: 'd by Godzilla.

 

[Onua]

I know its a medium-long shot but I'm still gonna hold out and hope fossil fighter makes it in.
If he/she was added in a part of me thinks they wouldn't get a trailer but rather they'd just be secret characters.
Unless smash 5 does away with that...
speaking of which i wonder if they will? Smash 4 kinda revealed everything prior to the game releasing sooooooo maybe they wont have the secret fighters this time.

 

[mario123007]

guys I'm sure geno will be in this time

You can't be sure, only hope so... Which I do.

But I won't be that bumped if Geno didn't make it.

Fingers crossed...

Is anyone else just a tad surprised Mario never got his wing cap for his up B?? Like that would have been such a good choice...or even having the cape be his up B

But his up B was somewhat iconic, I doubt it will change.

GeABSOLUTELY

This pun doesn't work that well lol.

Although I wouldn't ever go with a Xenoblade character because those are LAME

I agree that Shulk was a pretty hard character to use.
But hey, don't call Xenoblade characters lame. I hope Rex will be a better character to use than Shulk.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

If the roster really was decided by 2016, then we can kiss Spring-Man and Rex goodbye.

Only hope would be that Sakurai knew about them before their games were announced/released.

Which might be possible with ARMS considering the resources put into it but...

 

[mario123007]

If the roster really was decided by 2016, then we can kiss Spring-Man and Rex goodbye.

Only hope would be that Sakurai knew about them before their games were announced/released.

Which might be possible with ARMS considering the resources put into it but...

True, I wouldn't be so sure about that....
Remember Greninja was included even before he was included in Pokémon XY.
Also Xenoblade Chronicles 2 development started sometime around 2014...I think...

Sakurai had played Xenoblade Chronicles 2 but we aren't sure if he had know Xenoblade Chronicles 2 during its development...

 

[Senselessbreak]

Oh, they're "less retro than Little Mac"?

Then you just killed your entire argument since they wouldn't be added as "NES era characters" to begin with.

And if they were denied when they were in the running for token NES character in Melee, literally why would they even be considered for anything other than what they've already had in Smash if they have had several times now to be considered and rejected?

Hell, Balloon Fight got a STAGE this time around, but no Ballon Fighter character to go with it. Instead, Villager got the Balloon Fighter's helmet as an Up Secial, with said helmet being used to "represent" the Masterpiece of Balloon Fight.
And this was after Balloon Fight had both an item in Melee that was scrapped for Brawl AND the fish from the game serving as a stage hazard for AN UNRELATED FRANCHISE in Brawl.
So it would seem that's as far as that "legacy" as you call it will take it.

More relevant would be the better word here. They have legacy as retro reps and relevance due to their inclusion so its still a strong case. Sakurai denied multiple characters in the past and still added them in the game. Look at Villager himself. And if Sakurai cares as much he could change villagers up special. He removed Palutena from Pit's moveset. He removed Waddle Dee from Kind Dedede's. Hell, he will probably remove Toad from Peach's. And if he doesn't, who cares? So your points aren't blocking them from being added in the future. I'm telling you sooner or later they will get in, and they have much more of a realizable moveset then Duck Hunt Dog or Mr Game and Watch.

I mean who do you propose will be this games two retro reps?

 

[Deleted member]

I would agree. I mean he may have been happy to, but, unless I'm forgetting someone, she was the only new female that game added, and she wasn't even easily accessible unless you knew the ZSS trick. If that kind of representation was a deciding factor, seems likely the outcome there would've been a bit different.

There was going to be Dixie and Toon Zelda, but you know how that went.

 

[Senselessbreak]

If the roster really was decided by 2016, then we can kiss Spring-Man and Rex goodbye.

Only hope would be that Sakurai knew about them before their games were announced/released.

Which might be possible with ARMS considering the resources put into it but...

Thats such a bad argument because Arms and Rex were revealed with the Switch, meaning by that logic not a single rep from the Switch will get in Smash Bros Switch, which is absurd. They were revealed in Jan 2017, and a winter 2018 release date would give them nearly two years of dev time to add them, and thats saying Sakurai didn't have a heads up before hand. And rosters have changed throughout the development all the time. Plus we don't even know if the game uses Smash 4s engine and cast. Which if it did, it would make the dev time a lot shorter to add new characters.

 

[MasterofMonster]

Since having the Zelda characters designed from the same game is getting a bit harder now if BOTW Link really is the 'standard' Link, would people get annoyed if they were all based on different games?

Like, BOTW Link, with a BOTW-based moveset, TP Link, with a TP moveset of course, Toon Link being like he already is to keep the 'old' Link moveset, OoT Ganondorf (with a changed mosevet to better represent him and that game), and... Hyrule Warriors Sheik, maybe? Not likely that they'd use anything from that game, but I'd want her Final Smash to at least be her Harp.

I would actually be fine with that. Plus, it represents more games.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Thats such a bad argument because Arms and Rex were revealed with the Switch, meaning by that logic not a single rep from the Switch will get in Smash Bros Switch, which is absurd. They were revealed in Jan 2017, and a winter 2018 release date would give them nearly two years of dev time to add them, and thats saying Sakurai didn't have a heads up before hand.

Actually what I'm saying is based on what Sakurai said.

For Smash 4, Sakurai made his deadline for choosing characters 2012. Greninja only got in because he specifically went to Game Freak ahead of time to look for a new Pokemon character.

He also said on one of his slides that he decides all the characters first and doesn't add anymore barring last minute clones. The only character to get in anyways was Sonic.

As for whether or not a Smash for Switch needs a Switch rep...

Show me Smash 4's Wii U rep.

And rosters have changed throughout the development all the time.

Yeah but SMASH hasn't barring Sonic.

Rex and Spring Man are nowhere near Sonic's level.

Plus we don't even know if the game uses Smash 4s engine and cast. Which if it did, it would make the dev time a lot shorter to add new characters.

That's assuming some things.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

That would mean she has perfect timing then right?

Or at least better timing than Rex currently?

Not really. Plans for Xenoblade 2 started as early as July 2014, so Sakurai probably knew a decent amount of information for the game by the time he decided the roster, and probably figured it would be a better idea to include a character from 2 than X.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Not really. Plans for Xenoblade 2 started as early as July 2014, so Sakurai probably knew a decent amount of information for the game by the time he decided the roster, and probably figured it would be a better idea to include a character from 2 than X.

This is assuming Sakurai was privy to that information.

Remember, he doesn't know everything that goes on.

Lest I bring up @Opossum Brawl Marth example.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Since having the Zelda characters designed from the same game is getting a bit harder now if BOTW Link really is the 'standard' Link, would people get annoyed if they were all based on different games?

Like, BOTW Link, with a BOTW-based moveset, TP Link, with a TP moveset of course, Toon Link being like he already is to keep the 'old' Link moveset, OoT Ganondorf (with a changed mosevet to better represent him and that game), and... Hyrule Warriors Sheik, maybe? Not likely that they'd use anything from that game, but I'd want her Final Smash to at least be her Harp.

I would actually be fine with that. Plus, it represents more games.

TP Link and Toon Link are two modalities of the same archetype: the 'old' Link. I don't think they are strictly representing more games this way... I'd rather use items and techniques from their respective games.

 

[Senselessbreak]

Not really. Plans for Xenoblade 2 started as early as July 2014, so Sakurai probably knew a decent amount of information for the game by the time he decided the roster, and probably figured it would be a better idea to include a character from 2 than X.

Also Monolith Soft assisted with the dev on Smash and Sakurai is buddies with Tetsuya Takahashi. So Takahashi likely pushed Rex onto Sakurai.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Also Monolith Soft assisted with the dev on Smash and Sakurai is buddies with Tetsuya Takahashi. So Takahashi likely pushed Rex onto Sakurai.

That's assuming a lot.

I doubt Takahashi was seriously pressuring Sakurai to include Rex.

If Rex got in it would be because Sakurai wanted to include him.

 

[Senselessbreak]

Show me Smash 4's Wii U rep.

.

The problem with Wii U reps was none existed. The only new IP at the time Smash was released was W101. The game wasn't developed by a first party developer. However we did get 4 3DS reps for that installment. Arms and Xenoblade 2 are first party installments from fresh IPs on a fresh console.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

That's assuming a lot.

I doubt Takahashi was seriously pressuring Sakurai to include Rex.

If Rex got in it would be because Sakurai wanted to include him.

He doesn't have to pressure Sakurai into including him, he just has to suggest him to Sakurai, and I doubt Sakurai would add a character from an older game in the series after being suggested a character from the new upcoming game in the series.

 

[MasterofMonster]

TP Link and Toon Link are two modalities of the same archetype: the 'old' Link. I don't think they are strictly representing more games this way... I'd rather use items and techniques from their respective games.

Well, even just visually, I'd just like to see them represent more different Zelda games, just in their general designs. I mean, IF BOTW Link is the standard, I do wonder what they will do with Ganondorf. They could just keep him sorta like he is, of course, but I wonder if the'll do something like with Sheik in Brawl. Using a un-used design or something.

That would actually be cool. Even if he stays a bit Falcon-y, Dorf having a brand new design would be sweet.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

If any one of us understood Sakurai's situation or thinking process, we wouldn't still be scratching our heads about Brawl.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The problem with Wii U reps was none existed

Yeah there were.

The likes of Pikmin 3, New Super Mario Bros U, Super Mario 3D World, Nintendo Land and Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze all had potential newcomers. Heck, one of them became a costume.

However we did get 4 3DS reps for that installment

And two of them were made/shown before the deadline.



Two were last minute clones.


And one was DLC.

Arms and Xenoblade 2 are first party installments from fresh IPs on a fresh console.

Just to clarify.

I REALLY want Spring Man in the game. But I'm starting to wonder if his timing was too late.

He doesn't have to pressure Sakurai into including him, he just has to suggest him to Sakurai, and I doubt Sakurai would add a character from an older game in the series after being suggested a character from the new upcoming game in the series.

Yeah that might be possible.

But...

So Takahashi likely pushed Rex onto Sakurai.

This is different, isn't it?

 

[PLATINUM7]

Melee got Ice Climbers and Mr G&W
Brawl got Pit and ROB
4 got Little Mac and Duck Hunt

If each game continues to get 2 NES or older characters it wont be that long. Takamaru, Balloon Fighter, Mach Rider, Excite Rider, Diskun, Urban Champion, are characters I expect as Nintendo still continues to reuse all of them in some form or whether its a cameo, stage, port or something like NES remix. 7 characters is 3 1/2 games worth of retros, so that basically a decade from now.

Does Little Mac really count when we got Punch-Out!! Wii?

Actually what I'm saying is based on what Sakurai said.

For Smash 4, Sakurai made his deadline for choosing characters 2012. Greninja only got in because he specifically went to Game Freak ahead of time to look for a new Pokemon character.

He also said on one of his slides that he decides all the characters first and doesn't add anymore barring last minute clones. The only character to get in anyways was Sonic.

As for whether or not a Smash for Switch needs a Switch rep...

Show me Smash 4's Wii U rep.

Yeah but SMASH hasn't barring Sonic.

Rex and Spring Man are nowhere near Sonic's level.


That's assuming some things.

Alph is the closest thing to a Wii U rep in Smash 4.

 

[Senselessbreak]

Yeah there were.

The likes of Pikmin 3, New Super Mario Bros U, Super Mario 3D World, Nintendo Land and Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze all had potential newcomers. Heck, one of them became a costume.

I should clarify that I'm talking about original characters on the console. SM3DW had the same cast we expected from a Mario game by that point, plus we got playable Rosalina, but I don't count her. NSMBU is the same case. Nabbid did not pick up popularity and clearly Nintendos realized that. Instead he became a stage hazard. Nintendo Land was essentially a minigame collection on existing Nintendo series, with Monica being the only newly invented character, but I don't see her don't much. and DKTF didn't have popular villains which it introduced. Pikmin 3 is half a point since he was planned to have Rock Pikmin and his own slot but Sakurai either ran out of time or didn't care enough.

The point here is Arms is a new IP that Nintendo clearly has confidence in, and it has plenty of popular and viable characters. Xenoblade 2 is popular and even Sakurai greatly praised it. These titles are currently looking at a good chance of producing new characters. If Splatoon was a launch title, the Inklings would have been in (providing the 3DS didn't hold them back).

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Was Wolf planned from the start in Brawl?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Was Wolf planned from the start in Brawl?

Wolf seems to have been one of the "if we have time characters" along with Toon Link and Jigglypuff.

 

[Arcanir]

The problem with Wii U reps was none existed. The only new IP at the time Smash was released was W101. The game wasn't developed by a first party developer. However we did get 4 3DS reps for that installment. Arms and Xenoblade 2 are first party installments from fresh IPs on a fresh console.

To add to what Swamp said, Melee and Brawl also had a limited number of reps from their respective eras:
-Melee only had Roy, a character that was added as a clone to Marth late in development. The rest of the new additions pre-dated the Gamecube's release (Early Fall 2001).
-Brawl only had Lucario, a character that was already in promotion before DP came out. The rest of the new additions pre-dated the Wii's release (Late Fall 2006).

It's pretty consistent that we don't get many characters added from the respective console era, and the reason for that is because, as Swamp points out, characters are decided early in development. Sakurai doesn't really budge when he sets his roster, and that means characters that are introduced into the fold (whether from pre-existing or new franchises) usually fall to the wayside due to being too late. A good example of that is Olimar, who's first game was being developed during the same time as Melee, but didn't get anything other then a trophy. The only exceptions tend to be characters that are character slots that are deliberately put aside (such as Greninja) or are clones (such as Roy), and there's no guarantee that Rex or an ARMs character would fit into either of those.

That's not to say that either are doomed, Sakurai could've heard about their games being in development before he drafted the roster and decided to add them. However, considering that previous Smash games have overlooked many of their respective era's characters, it also can't be ignored that there is a possibility of those respective characters being introduced too late to make the roster.

 

[Deleted member]

More relevant would be the better word here. They have legacy as retro reps and relevance due to their inclusion so its still a strong case.

No they don't.
Literally the only things other than Mario Kart 8 getting an Excitebike track for DLC you've listed are games and cameos from before Smash 4 or even before Brawl.

I don't call that "relevance" OR "legacy".

Sakurai denied multiple characters in the past and still added them in the game. Look at Villager himself.

Villager wasn't denied because Sakurai couldn't think of how he could work, though. Sakurai actaully had an idea on how the Villager would have fought. Villager was denied because Sakurai felt he shouldn't be playable since it didn't seem right to actually have him fight.

The only character he denied for moveset/functionality reasons that he later went back to was Pac-Man. But that was literally because he was only thinking about Pac-Man's 2D "pizza missing a slice" design and Namco being part of the development team gave him opportunity to re-evaluate what Pac-Man actually had to work with.

And if Sakurai cares as much he could change villagers up special. He removed Palutena from Pit's moveset. He removed Waddle Dee from Kind Dedede's. Hell, he will probably remove Toad from Peach's.

Palutena was only part of Pit's Final Smash, and literally just made a cameo in doing so. And since the 3DS wouldn't have been able to handle the Centurions and Pit was being revamped with stuff from Uprising in general, his Final Smash would have been changed regardless of whether or not Palutena was playable.

The only reason Waddle Dees (and Waddle Doos) were removed from Dedede's Side Special and why he got a new Final Smash entirely is because of the 3DS. It had absolutely NOTHING to do with Bandana Waddle Dee. Especially since Bandana Waddle Dee wasn't even a newcomer and Waddle Dees are still present for Dedede's On-Screen Appearance and one of his victory animations.
So what's the point in even bringing this up?

And now you're sure that Peach's Toad move is "probably" going to be replaced? What is it with you and making baseless inevitabilities?

And if he doesn't, who cares? So your points aren't blocking them from being added in the future. I'm telling you sooner or later they will get in, and they have much more of a realizable moveset then Duck Hunt Dog or Mr Game and Watch.

I'm going to be completely blunt here. You have no case, and I have no reason to take this argument even remotely seriously AT ALL at this point. So consider this post the last I'm contributing to it.

I mean seriously. You give me absolutely ASININE arguments, make up fabricated excuses as to why my counterpoints don't matter, even going as far as to say "you're wrong because who cares?".

And really. They have "more realizable of a moveset than Duck Hunt Dog or Mr. Game & Watch"?
Then why are THOSE TWO in and why are Balloon Fighter and Excitebiker NOT when they've had multiple chances now in comparison?

I mean who do you propose will be this games two retro reps?

You clearly didn't listen to a thing I said, since you still seem to think we're getting two "retro reps" as if that's some pattern.

But what the hell, I'll give you FOUR that are possible (not all at once, obviously).
Takamaru (who was denied last time for lack of popularity overseas; I don't think that's much of an issue now)
Mach Rider (Sakurai never gave reason for denial in the past and even spoke favorably of Mach Rider)
Ossan (Possible "surprise character" meant to honor Iwata.)
Star Man (Pro Wrestling despite its lack of modern exposure by Nintendo itself is well-renowned through A WINNER IS YOU and a defictionalized "Star Man" wrestler in a syndacite that even attempted to crash a WWE show once; if Sakurai wanted a character few would see coming and would get buzz, he's an option.)

 

[mario123007]

Show me Smash 4's Wii U rep.

Fair point to be honest, we got Alph which he was initially planned to be a separate character rather than being Olimar's palette swap...

Oh yeah then why there's Breath of the Wild Link? OK, sure BotW was also on the Wii U. . So...

That being said sorry if my argument seems to be a bit of odd and even annoying for some...but... Unless you somehow Sommer this is a port, Stop comparing this to Smash Wii U/3DS development... For what we already know this time we are getting a new Smash Bros that is for only one platform, therefire the development time might just be a night and day difference between Smash 4. Sakurai even once mentioned he consider retiring if he had the same workload on the next Smash Bros game, but now he confirms his involvement with the game might proves that developing Smash Bros Switch may not be as long as hard as what we use to imagine.
Side note: I am also personally annoyed how people consider Smash Bros Switch will be rated E10+. ....if it's like that then what's the purpose of having RP? Moreover, even Super Mario Odyssey is E10+, making the highest ESRB rating main Mario game... So yeah...

That's assuming a lot.

I doubt Takahashi was seriously pressuring Sakurai to include Rex.

If Rex got in it would be because Sakurai wanted to include him.

To be fair, all of our statements are assumptions to this point.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Yeah there were.

The likes of Pikmin 3, New Super Mario Bros U, Super Mario 3D World, Nintendo Land and Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze all had potential newcomers. Heck, one of them became a costume.


And two of them were made/shown before the deadline.



Two were last minute clones.


And one was DLC.



Just to clarify.

I REALLY want Spring Man in the game. But I'm starting to wonder if his timing was too late.


Yeah that might be possible.

But...


This is different, isn't it?

The main characters of those Wii U games were already in Smash (and Alph got in as an alt), so it's not really fair to compare them to games like Xenoblade 2 and Arms which don't feature characters in Smash.

 

[AlphaSSB]

Just to clarify.

I REALLY want Spring Man in the game. But I'm starting to wonder if his timing was too late.

I want him too. Has a lot of potential.

I think its possible that ARMS released too late into development for Sakurai to really consider, but at the same time, he could've been specifically requested to help promote the game. I'd say his chances for the base roster are 50/50.

However, by the time Smash Switch comes out, ARMS will be over a year old. Given the game's positive reception and age, I think its very likely that Spring Man will end up being DLC, if not on the base roster.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

If we get technical Bayonetta could be considered Smash 4's WiiU rep given it was her ports that got her in, albeit indirectly.

 

[mario123007]

Just to clarify.

I REALLY want Spring Man in the game. But I'm starting to wonder if his timing was too late.

Just curious, what about Rex?
I personally prefer Rex way more than Spring Man, as for an ARMS rep, I prefer Min Min because she has more moveset potential.

If any one of us understood Sakurai's situation or thinking process, we wouldn't still be scratching our heads about Brawl.

Actually we scratch our heads when it comes to like... Every Smash Bros game, lol.

I bet we will scratch our heads again when we see Smash Bros Switch's final roster.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Question, even though I know it won't amount to much.

Has Sakurai tweeted anything about the Nindies showcase?

(Know it won't amount to anything Smash but I'm curious)

 

[Knight Dude]

I think Spring Man has a fair shot. It's not like there's a ton of stars to choose from now as it is. And ARMS is fairly successful, even if it isn't on the same level of Splatoon. On top of all that, the character is a natural fighter. So there's not a lot of reaching to make him work.

The guy's got a big gimmick to work with since he's basically in a game full of Zoners. Add to that, they have a ton of ARMS to pick for Special and Smash attacks. He fits in too well, is what I'm getting at.

 

[mario123007]

Question, even though I know it won't amount to much.

Has Sakurai tweeted anything about the Nindies showcase?

(Know it won't amount to anything Smash but I'm curious)

Nope, his recent tweet was sharing Smash Bros Switch Nintendo New York Live reaction. Glad he acknowledges the hype.