Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[N3ON]

I still think they'd go with Balloon Fighter. He may not be the strongest of tributes, but he could still be a tribute, and with his superior popularity and prevalence I think he'd be a more well-rounded addition. As beloved as Iwata might be, I assume there would still be a few more prerequisites for the Smash roster than simply who'd make the absolute best tribute.

 

[mario123007]

Because I think it's unlikely they'd have two XCX characters in Smash. If anything, it would be XC2 that would get two characters, which I think is also unlikely.

Yeah, which is unfortunate, I can still see it happening though if Xenoblade Chronicles X eventually ported to Nintendo Switch. Which they really should because despite we have a new Xenoblade game, I still want to ride mech, battling monsters and don't care too much about the story (since it's not good)

I just couldn't buy into X's story or characters. They were so uninteresting. Even Elma felt boring and didn't bring anything unique that screams "Hey she should be in Smash."

XBC2 on the otherhand is a completely different story where the blade system screams uniqueness. Plus the cast was incredible. Even though the english dub had its issues, Rex was still an interesting character, and I loved his relationship with Pyra and Mythra. I kinda hope they just forget about X at this point and continue with the main storyline.

I agree, but you have to give Monolithsoft a benefit of the doubt when it comes to XCX Story... It was intended to be made more linear. But then again I am not against the idea.

XBC2 on the otherhand is a completely different story where the blade system screams uniqueness. Plus the cast was incredible. Even though the english dub had its issues, Rex was still an interesting character, and I loved his relationship with Pyra and Mythra. I kinda hope they just forget about X at this point and continue with the main storyline.

Many people know about this at this point, yet you have people also bring up more odd complains when it comes to XC2 such as VA which is a legit complaint, but then you have people bringing up designs, censorship... Or just don't like XC2 anime designs etc.... Which some I understand while some I recommend them to keep it to themselves.

Whoops dd post... Help.... Please?

 

[Radical Bones]

Here are all the first party Nintendo games that appeared on both the NES Mini and Famicom Mini:

Balloon Fight
Donkey Kong
Dr. Mario
Excitebike
Ice Climber
Kirby's Adventure
Mario Bros.
Metroid
Super Mario Bros.
Super Mario Bros. 2
Super Mario Bros. 3
The Legend of Zelda
Zelda II

Assuming that these are the games that Nintendo believe are relevant and helped shape the console, Balloon Fight and Excitebike are the only two franchises that have never had a playable character in a Smash Bros. game.

They both have some representation, though.

 

[Senselessbreak]

Here are all the first party Nintendo games that appeared on both the NES Mini and Famicom Mini:

Balloon Fight
Donkey Kong
Dr. Mario
Excitebike
Ice Climber
Kirby's Adventure
Mario Bros.
Metroid
Super Mario Bros.
Super Mario Bros. 2
Super Mario Bros. 3
The Legend of Zelda
Zelda II

Assuming that these are the games that Nintendo believe are relevant and helped shape the console, Balloon Fight and Excitebike are the only two franchises that have never had a playable character in a Smash Bros. game.

They both have some representation, though.

I said in an earlier post that its only a matter of time before they get in since theres only so many NES era reps left to include. Also I wouldnt consider either series dead in Nintendos eyes. Excitebike got an N64 sequel, a Wii shop sequel, plus 2 Wii "Excite" games. And it got a stage in Mario Kart. Balloon Fight had a section in Nintendo Land, as well the Tingle Game. They are almost more relevant than Little Mac was at the time of his inclusion in Smash 4.

 

[PLATINUM7]

Villager is our Balloon Fight character

 

[Senselessbreak]

Villager is our Balloon Fight character

Just like hes our Little Mac for having punching gloves
Guess Toads not getting in since hes part of Peach's moveset.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Guess Toads not getting in since hes part of Peach's moveset.

I mean tbf, that could still be a reason. We haven't exactly heard Sakurai's thoughts on that after all. I don't think that would be a reason. But it is always a possibility.

 

[Gimmick-Hater]

To be honest, I'm a big fan of the idea of a lot of the older characters getting re-worked at the cost of a smaller roster. I feel like anything more than Smash 4 rosters is a bit much, and personally I felt like move-sets were starting to spread a bit then.

 

[?????????????]

I mean tbf, that could still be a reason. We haven't exactly heard Sakurai's thoughts on that after all. I don't think that would be a reason. But it is always a possibility.

Just change Peach's B to "Toadsworth."

 

[JohnnyEGG]

Mii fighters are brought up pretty often as someone who might get cut, but that gets me wondering- (Pardon me if it's been mentioned before)

Will this be the first smash game with DLC alternate costumes and skins for characters? Nintendo seems to be stepping towards an esports presence with this one judging by the Nintendo versus twitter page. That all but guarantees post-game support. Meanwhile, it's a common fighting game trend to get post-launch revenue using costumes, since they're so much easier to generate than new characters.

Mii fighters got that treatment in smash4. It seems really unlikely that they wouldn't expand on that in the next game. That in itself seems like a powerful reason to include them (or at least some manner of create a fighter) in the switch version.

The next step could be to add costumes for actual characters too. It'd be nice for a character who missed their shot like Chrom to at least be pseudo-playable as an Ike skin.

 

[Senselessbreak]

Just change Peach's B to "Toadsworth."

Peach is overdue for a moveset update anyways. Just like Mario, Link, Zelda and Ganondorf.

 

[Camc10]

So, what would everyone here change about/add to
Character victory themes
Character victory poses
And the Victory Screen itself. (64 had checkered squares, Melee had a black background, Brawl had the Desert from the E3 trailer, Smash 4 had the middle of nowhere)

 

[Deleted member]

Someone else said this but I'm glad Smash fans do not decide the roster

I know, right? If Smash fans made the next game and roster... I think I would not even play that game.

So, what would everyone here change about/add to
Character victory themes
Character victory poses
And the Victory Screen itself. (64 had checkered squares, Melee had a black background, Brawl had the Desert from the E3 trailer, Smash 4 had the middle of nowhere)

Victory Themes could be more diverse than in Smash 4. Give Luigi and some FE characters their own theme.
Victory poses are fine for now.
The Victory Screen could probably be something like a fiery background, IDK.

 

[Radical Bones]

Peach is overdue for a moveset update anyways. Just like Mario, Link, Zelda and Ganondorf.

Honestly a whole bunch of characters could do with the Pit treatment. Most of his moves stayed the same, they just updated three of his specials and boom, way better. Peach could do with a new side special and down special to be honest. And a whole bunch of characters.

 

[Pacack]

I just wanted to pop in and say that Elma isn't a character to take lightly. X has been mentioned as port material, and the game ends on a cliffhanger; it makes perfect sense.

That's not to say that Rex isn't going to make it, but his game is also on the edge of being too late to have been considered, making him prime DLC material.

I know, unpopular opinion.

 

[?????????????]

That's not to say that Rex isn't going to make it, but his game is also on the edge of being too late to have been considered, making him prime DLC material.

I know, unpopular opinion.

I'd like to see both Elma and Rex as newcomers.

 

[Senselessbreak]

Honestly a whole bunch of characters could do with the Pit treatment. Most of his moves stayed the same, they just updated three of his specials and boom, way better. Peach could do with a new side special and down special to be honest. And a whole bunch of characters.

Right!
Mario: Add cappy
Luigi: Poltergeist to main moveset
Peach: How about something from SM3DW or even her cappy.
Link and Zelda: Botw updates
Ganondorf: Actual ganondorf move. Take the design from HW
Toon Link: Use unique items from Windwaker
Falco: Arwing Final Smash
Greninja: Ash Greninja Final Smash
Villager: Give NL makeover
Lucina: Brave Lucina

That's not to say that Rex isn't going to make it, but his game is also on the edge of being too late to have been considered, making him prime DLC material.

I think he'll be in the main game. He was revealed in Jan 2017, the same time as the Switch, alongside Arms characters. That gives them nearly 2 years of dev time while publicly knowing about them (Sakurai likely knew months before this even).

People who make this argument imply not a single Switch generation character is making into Smash Switch at launch, which is just silly to believe.

 

[Polan]

To be honest, I'm a big fan of the idea of a lot of the older characters getting re-worked at the cost of a smaller roster. I feel like anything more than Smash 4 rosters is a bit much, and personally I felt like move-sets were starting to spread a bit then.

Glad you are not part of the dev team then. I said it before and I'll say it again: You can rework veterans AND bring back most of the roster. I'm not sure why a lot of people seem to think that throwing away hundreds of hours of dev work and starting from a blank slate is a good idea.

 

[Pacack]

I'd like to see both Elma and Rex as newcomers.

That's the ideal scenario, certainly. I loved both games, and I'd like to see them both if it's possible.

 

[Deleted member]

I said in an earlier post that its only a matter of time before they get in since theres only so many NES era reps left to include. Also I wouldnt consider either series dead in Nintendos eyes. Excitebike got an N64 sequel, a Wii shop sequel, plus 2 Wii "Excite" games. And it got a stage in Mario Kart. Balloon Fight had a section in Nintendo Land, as well the Tingle Game. They are almost more relevant than Little Mac was at the time of his inclusion in Smash 4.

They were also decided against in favor of the Ice Climbers.
Both of them. One for being useless if the balloons popped, the other for requiring ramps to jump.

With one getting an Assist status that was likely only scrapped for Smash 4 due to the 3DS and the other getting his entire gimmick from his game used as Villager's recovery.
....and no, Villager using boxing gloves while Little Mac is a fighter isn't a valid counter in the slightest.



It's highly unlikely either will ever be made playable at this point of time.
And really, to assume they'll get in eventually just because "there are only so many NES era reps to include" is ludicrous.
There isn't some rule that every game has to include some "NES rep", and they can just as easily not include either of the two because they feel all reasonable options are already in anyway and move on to other systems like the SNES or Game Boy.

 

[Opossum]

So, what would everyone here change about/add to
Character victory themes
Character victory poses
And the Victory Screen itself. (64 had checkered squares, Melee had a black background, Brawl had the Desert from the E3 trailer, Smash 4 had the middle of nowhere)

I'd have each character get their own victory theme, for one.

Unlisted characters would keep their current theme, but here are the rest:

Spoiler

- excerpt from the Luigi's Mansion theme
- The Game Clear/Rescued Peach theme from Super Mario Bros.
- World Bowser theme. Give Bowser a big band, he deserves it.
- excerpt from the Airship Fortress
- Doctor Mario theme (maybe with pill sounds added as flourishes)
- I think Returns' Rocket Barrel theme could be fitting
- Zelda's Lullaby
- Song of Time
- the Sailing theme from Wind Waker, maybe
- This one is harder...most of Ganondorf's boss fights don't work well for this. Gerudo Valley maybe?
- Theme of Samus Aran
- Uprising Boss Theme (it was used in her trailer, so it's a fitting connection)
- Do-do. Do-do-dooo-do. Do-do do-do-do. Do do do. (Dedede's Theme)
- Meta Knight's Revenge excerpt
- Area Six (it just feels like a Falco theme)
- Jigglypuff's Song
- Caught a Pokémon Jingle
- Pokémon Gym Theme
- Vs Mewtwo (which itself is just a remix of the Kanto Wild Pokémon battle theme)
- Excerpt from Kalos Wild Battle theme
- Ike's Theme
- Winning Road/Roy's Hope
- You May Call Me Marth
- Id Purpose
- Lost in Thoughts All Alone
- Mother 3 Love Theme

For victory animation stuff, I'd definitely change Lucina's victory quote against Marth because it's entirely out of character for her.

 

[Autumn ♫]

I'd have each character get their own victory theme, for one.

Unlisted characters would keep their current theme, but here are the rest:

Spoiler

- excerpt from the Luigi's Mansion theme
- The Game Clear/Rescued Peach theme from Super Mario Bros.
- World Bowser theme. Give Bowser a big band, he deserves it.
- excerpt from the Airship Fortress
- Doctor Mario theme (maybe with pill sounds added as flourishes)
- I think Returns' Rocket Barrel theme could be fitting
- Zelda's Lullaby
- Song of Time
- the Sailing theme from Wind Waker, maybe
- This one is harder...most of Ganondorf's boss fights don't work well for this. Gerudo Valley maybe?
- Theme of Samus Aran
- Uprising Boss Theme (it was used in her trailer, so it's a fitting connection)
- Do-do. Do-do-dooo-do. Do-do do-do-do. Do do do. (Dedede's Theme)
- Meta Knight's Revenge excerpt
- Area Six (it just feels like a Falco theme)
- Jigglypuff's Song
- Caught a Pokémon Jingle
- Pokémon Gym Theme
- Vs Mewtwo (which itself is just a remix of the Kanto Wild Pokémon battle theme)
- Excerpt from Kalos Wild Battle theme
- Ike's Theme
- Winning Road/Roy's Hope
- You May Call Me Marth
- Id Purpose
- Lost in Thoughts All Alone
- Mother 3 Love Theme

For victory animation stuff, I'd definitely change Lucina's victory quote against Marth because it's entirely out of character for her.

I'd say the same for her victory quote against Ike as well. Both are super out of character.

 

[Senselessbreak]

They were also decided against in favor of the Ice Climbers.
Both of them. One for being useless if the balloons popped, the other for requiring ramps to jump.

With one getting an Assist status that was likely only scrapped for Smash 4 due to the 3DS and the other getting his entire gimmick from his game used as Villager's recovery.
....and no, Villager using boxing gloves while Little Mac is a fighter isn't a valid counter in the slightest.



It's highly unlikely either will ever be made playable at this point of time.
And really, to assume they'll get in eventually just because "there are only so many NES era reps to include" is ludicrous.
There isn't some rule that every game has to include some "NES rep", and they can just as easily not include either of the two because they feel all reasonable options are already in anyway and move on to other systems like the SNES or Game Boy.

Excitebiker would be a perfect addition as he'd be a reverse Wario where hes always on the bike and when hes knocked off hes more vulnerable. The better the combos the longer and more effective you are. But once you start to slip you have to recover.

Even Machrider could be different from Excite Biker by having both bike moves and solid brawling moves similar along with Machriders knife.

The exclusion of Balloon Fighters was before air game became a big part of the series. Now that it is, the Balloon Fighter would be great with the games mechanics. And this is Sakurai we are talking about, he came up with plenty of original movesets on the spot. Exploding balloons that do damage, throwing the electric spikes or flippers. And thats just on the spot. Also its not like he wouldn't have melee moves.

Hell, Sakurai gave a moveset to a dog thats in the background. They will be fun additions when they eventually get added.

 

[PLATINUM7]

Honestly a whole bunch of characters could do with the Pit treatment. Most of his moves stayed the same, they just updated three of his specials and boom, way better. Peach could do with a new side special and down special to be honest. And a whole bunch of characters.

Get rid of Vegetable?

But what about our stitch face, surprise Mr. Saturn and Bob-omb?

 

[Troykv]

It would be interesting to see changes in the veterans movesets.

 

[Senselessbreak]

It would be interesting to see changes in the veterans movesets.

As long as BOTW isnt just a costume and actually has new moves.

 

[Radical Bones]

Get rid of Vegetable?

But what about our stitch face, surprise Mr. Saturn and Bob-omb?

Oh my bad, I meant to say standard special. Poor sacrificial Toad. He doesn't look willing to be there at all.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd have each character get their own victory theme, for one.

Unlisted characters would keep their current theme, but here are the rest:

Spoiler

- excerpt from the Luigi's Mansion theme
- The Game Clear/Rescued Peach theme from Super Mario Bros.
- World Bowser theme. Give Bowser a big band, he deserves it.
- excerpt from the Airship Fortress
- Doctor Mario theme (maybe with pill sounds added as flourishes)
- I think Returns' Rocket Barrel theme could be fitting
- Zelda's Lullaby
- Song of Time
- the Sailing theme from Wind Waker, maybe
- This one is harder...most of Ganondorf's boss fights don't work well for this. Gerudo Valley maybe?
- Theme of Samus Aran
- Uprising Boss Theme (it was used in her trailer, so it's a fitting connection)
- Do-do. Do-do-dooo-do. Do-do do-do-do. Do do do. (Dedede's Theme)
- Meta Knight's Revenge excerpt
- Area Six (it just feels like a Falco theme)
- Jigglypuff's Song
- Caught a Pokémon Jingle
- Pokémon Gym Theme
- Vs Mewtwo (which itself is just a remix of the Kanto Wild Pokémon battle theme)
- Excerpt from Kalos Wild Battle theme
- Ike's Theme
- Winning Road/Roy's Hope
- You May Call Me Marth
- Id Purpose
- Lost in Thoughts All Alone
- Mother 3 Love Theme

For victory animation stuff, I'd definitely change Lucina's victory quote against Marth because it's entirely out of character for her.

I like all of these victory options, good on you.
I am honestly shocked why Doctor Mario's theme stayed the same in Smash 4..

I'd like to see both Elma and Rex as newcomers.

I would like to see Rex, Pyra and Mythra as newcomers. Why do people sleep on Mythra?

 

[PixelSun]

BotW Link Speculation (yay):
downB

• Takes a weapon by random out of these 4 (probably more):
  • Spear (traveler's spear): Long range with a lot of lag between animations, a lot of KB and damages above the normal.
  • Sword (master sword): The same sword we have been using with Link since it's appearance.
  • Dagger (guardian sword++?): The opposite of the spear, short range and a little bit of lag but the damage and KB are below the normal.
  • Bomb (ingame / random): 0.001% of chance to appear, probably 30-40% of damage and it can push you a lot.

I want to make Link more dependant to their weapons, also the weapons he uses can break after a certain amount of inputs or time (in case of the Bombs)also sorry for my english its 5am and i havent slept

 

[Gimmick-Hater]

Glad you are not part of the dev team then. I said it before and I'll say it again: You can rework veterans AND bring back most of the roster. I'm not sure why a lot of people seem to think that throwing away hundreds of hours of dev work and starting from a blank slate is a good idea.

Where in my post did I say that the developers should start from a blank slate? Nowhere. It'd be foolish of the developers not take some stuff from Smash 4, but that still wouldn't change my mind about he roster being smaller. It doesn't need to be significantly cut down, but I still want to see cuts.

 

[Senselessbreak]

I would like to see Rex, Pyra and Mythra as newcomers. Why do people sleep on Mythra?

Who wouldn't sleep on Mythra

That said, I figure she'd just be part of Pyras Final Smash. The character selection screen will either be just "Rex" or "Rex and Pyra" but Mythra will find herself into the moveset one way or another.

 

[Camc10]

I'd have each character get their own victory theme, for one.

Unlisted characters would keep their current theme, but here are the rest:

Spoiler

- excerpt from the Luigi's Mansion theme
- The Game Clear/Rescued Peach theme from Super Mario Bros.
- World Bowser theme. Give Bowser a big band, he deserves it.
- excerpt from the Airship Fortress
- Doctor Mario theme (maybe with pill sounds added as flourishes)
- I think Returns' Rocket Barrel theme could be fitting
- Zelda's Lullaby
- Song of Time
- the Sailing theme from Wind Waker, maybe
- This one is harder...most of Ganondorf's boss fights don't work well for this. Gerudo Valley maybe?
- Theme of Samus Aran
- Uprising Boss Theme (it was used in her trailer, so it's a fitting connection)
- Do-do. Do-do-dooo-do. Do-do do-do-do. Do do do. (Dedede's Theme)
- Meta Knight's Revenge excerpt
- Area Six (it just feels like a Falco theme)
- Jigglypuff's Song
- Caught a Pokémon Jingle
- Pokémon Gym Theme
- Vs Mewtwo (which itself is just a remix of the Kanto Wild Pokémon battle theme)
- Excerpt from Kalos Wild Battle theme
- Ike's Theme
- Winning Road/Roy's Hope
- You May Call Me Marth
- Id Purpose
- Lost in Thoughts All Alone
- Mother 3 Love Theme

For victory animation stuff, I'd definitely change Lucina's victory quote against Marth because it's entirely out of character for her.

I wouldnt give Lucas a new victory jingle without bringing back Ness's jingle from 64/Melee. There current one i hear is from Earthbound Beginnings/Mother 1, so i guess they just added it in brawl so that it represents all of Mother.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

To be honest, I'm a big fan of the idea of a lot of the older characters getting re-worked at the cost of a smaller roster. I feel like anything more than Smash 4 rosters is a bit much, and personally I felt like move-sets were starting to spread a bit then.

>movesets spread a bit
>only 3 true clones

kwhat?

 

[Camc10]

I would like to see Rex, Pyra and Mythra as newcomers. Why do people sleep on Mythra?

Some dont. The big idea ive been hearing is Rex being the character with Both Pyra and Mythra helping.

 

[Gimmick-Hater]

>movesets spread a bit
>only 3 true clones

kwhat?

There were quite a few semi-clones as well. On top of that, a lot of characters had lots of similar moves that just had slightly different plays on them. One them was counter. Almost every FE character has them Shulk has, Little Mac has one, etc...

 

[Knight Dude]

Updating the classic characters is always an interesting topic, but you never what you'll really get, since in each game, only a few get such drastic changes, like ZSS, Bowser or Zelda. Some receive smaller changes like DK.

I kind of doubt Mario will have his Side-B changed, since he's had it for so long, and it is pretty useful. I know I'm not the only one who would be okay with F.L.U.D.D being changed. Cappy would make sense if it just hit stuff, I'm pretty sure some enemies can't get captured, so it wouldn't be too weird. Though the version of that attack that circles around Mario would be more unique than a straight projectile. The Ground Pound is also a move he's had since Mario 64, and even made into some 2D games with NSMB. But Yoshi and Bowser have their own versions of it.

I don't know what I'd change for Peach. I would say her neutral B I guess, since I find it has the least amount of use the few times I do use the character, there's so many other counters that work better. Though I guess I'd want less counters overall. Giving her a fireball like Mario and Luigi would make sense, but be kind of generic.

She did get her own game in Super Princess Peach. If you wanted to give her an attack from that, either the projectile from the umbrella or have her pick people up with it, again, like in that game.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

Where in my post did I say that the developers should start from a blank slate? Nowhere. It'd be foolish of the developers not take some stuff from Smash 4, but that still wouldn't change my mind about he roster being smaller. It doesn't need to be significantly cut down, but I still want to see cuts.

but I still want to see cuts.

What? Why do you actively want characters to be removed? Why can’t you just not play as them?

 

[Deleted member]

Excitebiker would be a perfect addition as he'd be a reverse Wario where hes always on the bike and when hes knocked off hes more vulnerable.

That doesn't sound like good design whatsoever.

The exclusion of Balloon Fighters was before air game became a big part of the series. Now that it is, the Balloon Fighter would be great with the games mechanics. And this is Sakurai we are talking about, he came up with plenty of original movesets on the spot. Exploding balloons that do damage, throwing the electric spikes or flippers. And thats just on the spot. Also its not like he wouldn't have melee moves.

Hell, Sakurai gave a moveset to a dog thats in the background. They will be fun additions when they eventually get added.

With the number of other available NES era characters that weren't stated to have been denied for moveset/functioning reasons, by the time all other options have been used up, the Wii U will be considered a retro console and Smash may not even be a thing anymore, let alone be going out of its way to include someone from that era.

Not only that, "Eventually" and "This is Sakurai we're talking about" does not go together.

"Eventually", Sakurai's going to retire, and that will long before all other possible options have been exhausted to where he's "forced" to reconsider on the two (along with others he's denied like Bubbles and Urban Champion). Hell, you don't even seem to realize that they won't both get in at the same time based on the perceived notion that there's some "token NES rep" with each game. They would both be at least one game apart, putting further question into the "eventuality".

There is absolutely no reason to assume either are guaranteed to be made playable "eventually".

 

[Radical Bones]

BotW Link Speculation (yay):
downB

• Takes a weapon by random out of these 4 (probably more):
  • Spear (traveler's spear): Long range with a lot of lag between animations, a lot of KB and damages above the normal.
  • Sword (master sword): The same sword we have been using with Link since it's appearance.
  • Dagger (guardian sword++?): The opposite of the spear, short range and a little bit of lag but the damage and KB are below the normal.
  • Bomb (ingame / random): 0.001% of chance to appear, probably 30-40% of damage and it can push you a lot.

I want to make Link more dependant to their weapons, also the weapons he uses can break after a certain amount of inputs or time (in case of the Bombs)also sorry for my english its 5am and i havent slept

I really feel like Link will just keep the Master Sword and his bomb will become the Sheikah Slate Bomb and his side special might be replaced with Magnesis but it'll probably just be a Lizal Boomerang.

I don't see BotW Link having a major moveset redesign.

 

[Autumn ♫]

Honestly, with moveset changes I'd like to see, one of the ones I've recently thought of is changing Mario's up special to him throwing Cappy and then jumping on him, giving him more horizontal recovery. It'd also make him and Dr. Mario even more different as well, given that Dr.Mario keeps his up special.