Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[MamaLuigi123456]

I'm somewhat disappointed we didn't get a big super-heavyweight newcomer along the line of for Smash 4.

Aren't super-heavyweights too?

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Whooaaah- It has been a while since Smash for. Discussion! Time flies rather quickly!
It's nice to see some familiar faces- And some same old subject being bring up every now and then...Alright then, time to give my two cents on more than one subject-

Nekoo! Nekoo! Is it a new game or a Port!?

In my opinion the game IS a new game, not a port- A referenced with the job Listing back in 2014 For a Smash Bros 6- Smash Bros 3Ds and Wii U counting a s the fourth and Fifth entry of the series-
The time between 2014 to 2018 would make it realizable for it to be a new entries- Using a lot of the asset from Smash 4 the same way a lot of leftover data from Brawl exit in Smash 4.
if we see the timeframe of the Job Listing, it could have been around the time Zelda BOTW was decided to be out in both Wii U and Switch. Perhaps it was the Same for Smash 4. The Wii U comming to an end, higher up could have asked to Sakurai or Internal team to work on a Port for the so called "NX" that would become the Switch that we all know.

However, as the time pass, it is totally possible that Sakurai decided to change his plans, going from a simple "MK8 Deluxe" like port to a full fledged game, meaning we could get a new game with a Lot of Asset from Smash 4, making the development time way shorter...And Hopefully less characters-cut!

Nekoo! Nekoo! What about the cut! The third Party! And all of that!
I'm going to get into the speculation part of the post. With Sakurai continuing his job (Director? Conselor? I would rather see him as a Director in all honestly, the man is made for this job). I'm going to be bold and say....
No one will get cut from the transition from Smash 4 to Smash Switch. That is, if they truly reuse asset like my theory assume it.
And none of the third party will leave the game, Yes, Cloud, Bayonetta, Ryu will stay in the game- And neither the Clones will... Now hear me out-

• Let's say the game is indeed an echanced port of Smash 4 on Switch or started as a Port- It mean that all DLC would be included in the base game, meaning that Nintendo would have to get the right for these Characters once again-
• The amiibo line was released extremely late for most of the DLC characters- Though, there some rumors about Square being Square and wanting more part of the $$$$ Cake that are the Amiibo-
• Why would Sakurai get the right for EXTREMELY POPULAR THIRD PARTY that can literaly break the internet, for DLC on an underperforming AND Dying system- (I'm sorry Ridley/K.Rool/Bandana Dee/ whatever characters here but Cloud and Ryu are probably a bigger deal than all of them together just by themselves)
• The Ballot Idea could have been made around the time Smash Switch became a full fledged game- Explaining the fact that it's data would be used for "Future entries"
• Also it's a good way to bring back the Ice Climber who couldn't work on the Wii U, remember, Sakurai didn't want that the WiiU and 3DS game had different characters- So If the Game isn't a port- (Which seems to be proved with Link going full BOTW and the Inkling inclusion) He have no reason to not put them in now

And on a side note- Yes, Third parties are important to Smash- Sure, it is a Nintendo Centred Game- But they are the little nice juice, that cherry on top of the game, and some characters are literally Console Seller-
(Yes, People could buy the game Only because Sonic/Ryu/Pac-man/Cloud are in it)

But Muh Roy/Mewtwo/Corrin/Lucina/Dark Pit/Dr.Mario/Lucas/ Insert character you don't like stealing a spot :'(((
Get over it. An earlier post said that Roy got a Redesign only of Smash 4 and that, if ROY of all people got a redesign, why not Ridley (Which isn't wrong persay) However, Roy's "Smash4 Design" has basically started to be his "canon" design as of now, From FE Cipher to Fire Emblem Heroes-
And for people thinking Roy is Liked only in the Smash community, I'm pretty sure Roy is beloved in japan and his game is too as it is the "GBA renaissance ERA" of FE- Alongside topping second male characters in the FEH CYL contest, beating characters like Marth/Hector/Chrom and Even with or without vote splitting

Not only that, but most of the Clone/Semi-clone got it because of their popularities and as a free Dessert, Sakurai wouldn't cut Veterant DLC characters once again especially since they become DLC BECAUSE they were popular in previous entries-


Pfew, That was a long post, but god damn it's good to be back-

This is a good take. I agree with pretty much everything in it! I think you're on point with the 3rd party talk. I made literally the same point about the "DLC on a dying system" the other day. I'm glad to see somebody thinking the same on that!

 

[?????????????]

I meant a character whose specific talent is healing. Every healing attack in Smash is either incredibly small or only heals under certain conditions (Ness/Lucas need a projectile to absorb, Robin needs to be facing someone, etc.). We've never had a character with the true ability to heal.

I don’t mean to take away from this point, ‘cause it’s EXACTLY what I was thinking too...

...But it made me think about Ness and Lucas, because in their respective games, they ARE primarily healers. Their Smash movesets are kinda weird since they’re borrowing special moves from other MOTHER characters.

 

[Ivander]

Ooh, I have a new question then:

If you could pick any Champion from BotW to become playable in Smash, but you can only pick one, who do you pick?

I’ll go with Urbosa.

Daruk would be good for a heavyweight. And Gorons are rather cool.
Mipha could be interesting. I mean, she revolves around water and healing. At the same time, she has a spear, which is a new weapon for Smash.
Urbosa, I feel, would be rather balanced and I'm a sucker for Thunder elements. That being said, I think her having a Sword & Shield doesn't help her.
Revali would probably be one of those with great recovery, good air moves and lots of air time. And considering that Smash added a decent bunch of ranged fighters like Megaman and Mii Gunner, Revali using his bow alot could be cool.

From a aesthetics perspective, Urbosa with Daruk as second choice. For gameplay, Revali with Mipha as second choice.

 

[Bowserlick]

If we have spirit Champions as Zelda's specials, Urbosa is an easy visual Phantom replacement and Revali an easy visual replacement for Farore's Wind.

Daruk is also an easy visual replacement for Love, but that slot could also be filled by Mipha's Grace as a counter style special that can heal or be converted into a shield.

This leaves Daruk's Protection as Din's Fire. His polygonal shields can be placed like mine's by navigating them similar to Din's Fire and could also be manually exploded.

Or have Daruk's Protection be Love and have Din's Fire be converted into a blue ball for Mipha's Grace. Each detonation heals 1% and each hit heals 2 %.

 

[FunAtParties]

I'd like Daruk because can see him working a lot like Kragg in RoA does, and I love his design

 

[Morbi]

Daruk would be good for a heavyweight. And Gorons are rather cool.
Mipha could be interesting. I mean, she revolves around water and healing. At the same time, she has a spear, which is a new weapon for Smash.
Urbosa, I feel, would be rather balanced and I'm a sucker for Thunder elements. That being said, I think her having a Sword & Shield doesn't help her.
Revali would probably be one of those with great recovery, good air moves and lots of air time. And considering that Smash added a decent bunch of ranged fighters like Megaman and Mii Gunner, Revali using his bow alot could be cool.

From a aesthetics perspective, Urbosa with Daruk as second choice. For gameplay, Revali with Mipha as second choice.

The only issue I have with Revali is I can practically already play him with Falco. So, personally, I put him at the lowest priority.

 

[FunAtParties]

The only issue I have with Revali is I can practically already play him with Falco. So, personally, I put him at the lowest priority.

I think he could be very different from Falco. Not only because of the bow, but the nature of the way he attacks, and moves in the air. Outside of his look they really don't have a lot in common.

 

[Ivander]

The only issue I have with Revali is I can practically already play him with Falco. So, personally, I put him at the lowest priority.

I don't know. I think Revali would be quite different from Falco. Revali would probably have multiple jumps due to actually being able to fly and flap. Also, I think he'd be more floaty than Falco, who just drops. Also, Revali having a bow as his main weapon. Also, I'm more than certain his recovery would be much better than Falco.
The only thing that Revali is rather similar with to Falco is personality, which I'm pretty sure is a factor for some people.

 

[Morbi]

I think he could be very different from Falco. Not only because of the bow, but the nature of the way he attacks, and moves in the air. Outside of his look they really don't have a lot in common.

I was mostly referring to the "Revali would probably be one of those with great recovery, good air moves and lots of air time" part of their post. If we were to get any bird with a bow, I prefer Decidueye. However, if they focused on archery specifically, I guess I would not have a problem with it. I just believe that the other three offer something that no one else on the roster or other potential characters cannot.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Aren't super-heavyweights too?

Charizard and Donkey Kong yes. ROB no. Here is the weight category for clarification.

 

[IronTed]

Charizard and Donkey Kong yes. ROB no. Here is the weight category for clarification.

That's a neat list. I never knew Bower Jr. and Samus were that heavy.

 

[Morbi]

Charizard and Donkey Kong yes. ROB no. Here is the weight category for clarification.

That chart hurts my eyes. So many odd cut-off points and weird naming conventions. That being said, I never realized that Mii characters were so thicc.

 

[FunAtParties]

I'll never understand why they make Mewtwo as light as they do. I can understand him being light, but he's lighter than Mr. Game and Watch ffs. I can't imagine putting him at 80 would affect the balance that much.

 

[papagenos]

So who’s more likely:

Cranky or Funky?

I’d say they are about equally likely, but less so than K Rool and Dixie, however they could win out:

Funky if they’ve want to promote tropical freeze on switch specifically OR want to add an easy DK clone (though I think that’s wasting gas his moveset potential).

Cranky if sakurai wants an interesting cane hopping moveset and thinks it’s more important than K Rools villain status/fan desire and Dixie’s history/almost added with diddy/female rep.

 

[Chandeelure]

Is it me or is DK waaay too big in Smash 4? XD

He is like the same size as Bowser and he is not even in an upright position.
When he does his Up Taunt he is bigger than Bowser lol.

 

[FunAtParties]

Is it me or is DK waaay too big in Smash 4? XD

He is like the same size as Bowser and he is not even in an upright position.
When he does his Up Taunt he is bigger than Bowser lol.

Seems just about right to me

 

[Hinata]

Every time I look at stats for Smash 4, it boggles my mind to see that Robin is the slowest character in the game.

 

[Morbi]

I’d say they are about equally likely, but less so than K Rool and Dixie, however they could win out:

Funky if they’ve want to promote tropical freeze on switch specifically OR want to add an easy DK clone (though I think that’s wasting gas his moveset potential).

Cranky if sakurai wants an interesting cane hopping moveset and thinks it’s more important than K Rools villain status/fan desire and Dixie’s history/almost added with diddy/female rep.

It probably has less to do with "making a clone" and more to do with, you could use DK's model for Funky or Diddy's model for Dixie. Beyond that, I would say Dixie is more or less the most prominent and therefore potentially the most likely. But I VASTLY prefer Cranky and Funky.

King K. Rool is just, ha ha ha... Ha ha... ha ha ha. Maybe his Mii costume will return.

 

[FunAtParties]

It probably has less to do with "making a clone" and more to do with, you could use DK's model for Funky or Diddy's model for Dixie. Beyond that, I would say Dixie is more or less the most prominent and therefore potentially the most likely. But I VASTLY prefer Cranky and Funky.

King K. Rool is just, ha ha ha... Ha ha... ha ha ha. Maybe his Mii costume will return.

That last paragraph saddens and angers me deeply.

 

[RodNutTakin]

I want Funky Kong for one reason and one reason only:

 

[Diddy Kong]

When people think of Smash Switch upgrading from the Wii U/3DS version, everyone thinks about Ice Climbers.

But the thing I want back is SIX PIKMIN.

Nah, give me TWO BANANAS instead.

 

[TheSpitefulWolf]

I meant a character whose specific talent is healing. Every healing attack in Smash is either incredibly small or only heals under certain conditions (Ness/Lucas need a projectile to absorb, Robin needs to be facing someone, etc.). We've never had a character with the true ability to heal.

And healing isn't the main reason I want Mipha. Spear fighters are rare to come by, and Smash hasn't gotten one yet. Although I could easily come up with a moveset for Urbosa, I feel like there's plenty of opportunities to get another sword fighter (especially since FE and Xenoblade exists).

NO BAD. self-healing in fighting games is always, bar-none, a bad ****ing idea, no matter how you think to slice it balance it or whatever. if you can self-heal then time games are ALWAYS in your advantage, and if the stage is big enough damage never ****ing sticks.

the alternative is the heal is so ****ing weaksauce that it's a wasted moveslot and a trap move to make newbies think they're helping a team or serving themselves when it's ****ing not

no

bad

do not make me get a newspaper

 

[Chandeelure]

I would to see gliding back, maybe it should not be as OP as before (basically being infinite in some stages).

Nah, give me TWO BANANAS instead.

I think that was more a thing about balance and not about 3DS limitations haha.

 

[Morbi]

NO BAD. self-healing in fighting games is always, bar-none, a bad ****ing idea, no matter how you think to slice it balance it or whatever. if you can self-heal then time games are ALWAYS in your advantage, and if the stage is big enough damage never ****ing sticks.

the alternative is the heal is so ****ing weaksauce that it's a wasted moveslot and a trap move to make newbies think they're helping a team or serving themselves when it's ****ing not

no

bad

do not make me get a newspaper

Or you could just balance it properly to avoid... Whatever happened to you. There is definitely a middle ground between "always in your advantage" and "so ****ing weaksauce."

 

[Opossum]

I'll never understand why they make Mewtwo as light as they do. I can understand him being light, but he's lighter than Mr. Game and Watch ffs. I can't imagine putting him at 80 would affect the balance that much.

It likely has to do with the fact that he levitates. In other words, he gets knocked away easily because he doesn't have any part of him anchored to the ground.

 

[TheSpitefulWolf]

Or you could just balance it properly to avoid... Whatever happened to you. There is definitely a middle ground between "always in your advantage" and "so ****ing weaksauce."

that's the ****ing problem, there really isn't. no one uses elena's self-heal in sf3 because it's garbo, no one plays with Heart Containers on because full-heals are lame, especially if it's time or if it's a close stock. regen encourages super-turtling and running away, and characters with lifesteal are ****ing dumb because life bars literally switch places in one combo

healing is ridiculously powerful in fighting games because you can make your bar go in two directions instead of just one

 

[FunAtParties]

that's the ****ing problem, there really isn't. no one uses elena's self-heal in sf3 because it's garbo, no one plays with Heart Containers on because full-heals are lame, especially if it's time or if it's a close stock. regen encourages super-turtling and running away, and characters with lifesteal are ****ing dumb because life bars literally switch places in one combo

healing is ridiculously powerful in fighting games because you can make your bar go in two directions instead of just one

Traditional fighters are a whole different monster than Smash. I'm not saying a healer could work in Smash, but different kinds of games can allow for different things.

 

[Opossum]

that's the ****ing problem, there really isn't. no one uses elena's self-heal in sf3 because it's garbo, no one plays with Heart Containers on because full-heals are lame, especially if it's time or if it's a close stock. regen encourages super-turtling and running away, and characters with lifesteal are ****ing dumb because life bars literally switch places in one combo

healing is ridiculously powerful in fighting games because you can make your bar go in two directions instead of just one

I think I was able to strike a happy medium in a Moveset I made.

Basically in this case, it's on a character (Celica, from Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia) whose playstyle would revolve around having her more powerful magical spells do more recoil damage the more powerful they are. As such, she's a bona fide glass cannon who dishes out tons of damage, but can't take very many hits. Her down special would allow her to heal 10% (with the percent going lower with each use) but...there's a catch. It's done in the style of a counter move and has a very small window of activation. This, in itself, balances it. You'd only ever use it if you were in dying range, but it also puts you in a position where messing up would likely get you killed.

Risky enough to not be spammed, but effective enough to not be a waste.

 

[TheSpitefulWolf]

I think I was able to strike a happy medium in a Moveset I made.

Basically in this case, it's on a character (Celica, from Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia) whose playstyle would revolve around having her more powerful magical spells do more recoil damage the more powerful they are. As such, she's a bona fide glass cannon who dishes out tons of damage, but can't take very many hits. Her down special would allow her to heal 10% (with the percent going lower with each use) but...there's a catch. It's done in the style of a counter move and has a very small window of activation. This, in itself, balances it. You'd only ever use it if you were in dying range, but it also puts you in a position where messing up would likely get you killed.

Risky enough to not be spammed, but effective enough to not be a waste.

i have no idea who that is but a counter-heal? counters are already regarded as a stupid epidemic that too many variants exist of. and that's an example of a heal that's garbo, no 'glass cannon' wants to do a move that is a pitiful self-heal if they can blast a ************ off a stage. it doesn't matter if you're at 230% if the other person is ****ing dead

it'd be like zelda in melee, where her best move was down+b, and sheik's worst was down+b

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Me and you both. Why he hasn't been added in yet is beyond me.

Because Meowth is too OP for Smash. Duh!

 

[Opossum]

i have no idea who that is but a counter-heal? counters are already regarded as a stupid epidemic that too many variants exist of. and that's an example of a heal that's garbo, no 'glass cannon' wants to do a move that is a pitiful self-heal if they can blast a ************ off a stage. it doesn't matter if you're at 230% if the other person is ****ing dead

it'd be like zelda in melee, where her best move was down+b, and sheik's worst was down+b

Counters are loathed because they all operate the same way. A counter-styled move that acts much differently wouldn't be. Mewtwo's Disable shows that; it has an almost counter-style effect (close range, situational, few-frame maneuver), but isn't used for damage like the ones people complain about. This would be a similar thing, where the effect is different enough to not cause backlash.

And I don't think it'd be garbage if used well by the player. Especially not if it had a sort of wind box effect to push the foe a bit away to regain space. I just think you're too quick to write off alternatives because you're already set on your view of healing moves (despite the fact that some exist in Smash already).

 

[FunAtParties]

Counters are loathed because they all operate the same way. A counter-styled move that acts much differently wouldn't be. Mewtwo's Disable shows that; it has an almost counter-style effect (close range, situational, few-frame maneuver), but isn't used for damage like the ones people complain about. This would be a similar thing, where the effect is different enough to not cause backlash.

And I don't think it'd be garbage if used well by the player. Especially not if it had a sort of wind box effect to push the foe a bit away to regain space. I just think you're too quick to write off alternatives because you're already set on your view of healing moves (despite the fact that some exist in Smash already).

I hate counters because they rely on the opponent to attack (duh). I'd rather be eliminated almost entirely. I liked your idea for Celica before you said it was a counter tbh

 

[TheSpitefulWolf]

Counters are loathed because they all operate the same way. A counter-styled move that acts much differently wouldn't be. Mewtwo's Disable shows that; it has an almost counter-style effect (close range, situational, few-frame maneuver), but isn't used for damage like the ones people complain about. This would be a similar thing, where the effect is different enough to not cause backlash.

And I don't think it'd be garbage if used well by the player. Especially not if it had a sort of wind box effect to push the foe a bit away to regain space. I just think you're too quick to write off alternatives because you're already set on your view of healing moves (despite the fact that some exist in Smash already).

so there's a windbox now, and we can free-fludd someone on an invincible counter offstage? c'mon son, you don't see why this is ****ed? the best you can do is make it like /which forces an approach for energy-attack users, and 'glass cannons' want their targets at range because why would you get closer to someone that can ****ing wreck you?

disable can be whatever it wants to be, but it's not a self-heal. there's also a dozen ways disable is different than counters (not invincible, doesn't auto-complete on-hit, need to face opponent that's also facing you)

 

[ColietheGoalie]

It likely has to do with the fact that he levitates. In other words, he gets knocked away easily because he doesn't have any part of him anchored to the ground.

But whether or not a character is on the ground shouldn’t make a difference to weight as far as I know. I mean, something weighs the same on the ground or in the air, right? And even if levitation is taken into account, him being lighter than the likes of Olimar and Kirby is a little harsh

 

[Freduardo]

NO BAD. self-healing in fighting games is always, bar-none, a bad ****ing idea, no matter how you think to slice it balance it or whatever. if you can self-heal then time games are ALWAYS in your advantage, and if the stage is big enough damage never ****ing sticks.

the alternative is the heal is so ****ing weaksauce that it's a wasted moveslot and a trap move to make newbies think they're helping a team or serving themselves when it's ****ing not

no

bad

do not make me get a newspaper

To be fair in the helping a team claim, if team attack is on, Ness and Lucas’ really can quite easily.

...

Also doesn’t Palutena have a counter heal?

It’s fine, it compensates by being difficult to use.

 

[Chron]

And I don't think it'd be garbage if used well by the player. Especially not if it had a sort of wind box effect to push the foe a bit away to regain space.

Even if it was garbage, at least people could still use it to edgegaurd Little Mac.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I have a new prediction roster for you guys to discuss:

Any feedback or opinions on what should be changed?

The only thing I am iffy on is Shovel Knight and Balloon Fighter, but they are risky predictions I chose to make.

 

[Metalex]

Traditional fighters are a whole different monster than Smash. I'm not saying a healer could work in Smash, but different kinds of games can allow for different things.

If anything it would be worse in Smash tbh. In traditional fighters you are stuck in a confined area facing your opponent, whereas a heal in Smash would be more problematic cause of hit and run tactics or simply camping/running away forcing the opponent to chase you.

Of course which type of character has the healing mechanic and their movement would have a huge impact on this, but i think it would be hard to make it worthwhile.

I remember that Ivysaur in Project M heals 1% Damage per second charging her Down + B but it doesn't really add much to the move.

 

[?????????????]

I have a new prediction roster for you guys to discuss:

Any feedback or opinions on what should be changed?

The only thing I am iffy on is Shovel Knight and Balloon Fighter, but they are risky predictions I chose to make.

I’m not sold on 2 AC newcomers, but that’s just me.