Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[N3ON]

Went back to find around when this Corrin business kicked off.

>people didn't want corrin

i explicitly remember people asking for corrin very soon after fates got revealed. think they even had a support thread on smashboards very soon after. people were even making "vote for corrin in the smash ballot" pictures

Spoiler

so....all the people saying that no one wanted them are filthy revisionists.

If you wanted to quantify that demand past the fact that it existed you'd find it was overshadowed by dozens and dozens of other characters. Any poll conducted around that time or examining posts of that era would corroborate that. Simply having a thread on Smashboards is no measure of real popularity.

Now I'm not going to say the support he did have was bandwagoning, because that doesn't make sense for a character that only had scant demand, but I will say that prior to his inclusion very few people would come rushing to defend his presence in Smash as they do now.

And while we're at it, 99% of the time someone says "people didn't want x" it means support was minimal, not literally zero people wanted the character. It's common hyperbole.

 

[Deleted member]

Someone mentioned Corrin, then people got triggered, then we got into a whole argument with PsychoIncarnate about fanbases.

Damn it, why does every Fire Emblem discussion around here explode into, well....fire?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I would advise that you just stop posting right now.

I did but you just had to reply to me back 8 minutes later

 

[Nekoo]

Part of me wonders if it would have been easier to pass off Cloud as the "ballot winner" even if Bayonetta objectively got more votes.

This. And this Again.
People wouldn't have thrown a fit if Cloud was said to be the ballot winner since it is somehow believable. But Bayonetta? No way in hell... Add to this the whole "*realisable Characters" thing and you get the shadiest deal

 

[ReeseBalaski]

Smash itself is very economical. It was gonna be an original IP with original characters, until Sakurai decided that known Nintendo faces would give the game a better identity/presence for gamers. Especially since Smash isn't a traditional fighter, in that it plays nothing like the dominant arcade fighters.

Nintendo thought it would fail, but Smash 64 ended up being a sleeper hit. And the rest is history.

Characters not having much of a presence before Smash is not a sudden inhibitor towards their potential inclusion. F-Zero wasn't the most well known franchise back in the day, and it certainly isn't doing too hot now. But Captain Falcon is most certainly known. A bunch of people who aren't even too into Nintendo know about the Falcon Punch. The majority of the captain's fanbase was built from his Smash inclusion.

Earthbound is another example. Mother 2 did decently in Japan, but not well at all in the west. Europe didn't even get it at all I believe until the Wii U re-release. Ness was a literal 'who' among a lot of people when they first played Smash. His (and Earthbound's) popularity and fanbase were built from Smash. So much so, that the surge of popularity that Earthbound got led to it defining some aspects of gaming culture on the internet.

Smash builds fanbases for a lot of unknown characters, or characters that otherwise would be brushed aside. Marth, Roy, and Ike's western popularity comes primarily from Smash. Many Pokemon are chosen to be put in Smash as deliberate marketing strategies to make them popular in the home Pokemon series. Kid Icarus literally got a new game because of Pit's Smash popularity. And be honest. Do you think more people nowadays remember Ice Climbers or R.O.B. for their games or for their Smash appearance?

What I'm saying is, Smash has been building popularity for characters since the first game. Pretty much advertising them and their game. Of course, it was the most blatantly obvious for Corrin, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened before.

And... considering how generous Ultimate is, Corrin is pretty much a non issue.

 

[amazonevan19]

I'm gonna do something I don't think anyone here has speculated about yet, the CastleVania songs. We have a full list, but what versions of the songs are they and could they be remixed? I found out Harmony of Despair actually remixed a significant amount of the themes present which explains most of the choices and in hindsight makes me glad we didn't get Crazed In a Luminous Mansion It's a large list so it goes in a spoiler tag

Spoiler

Vampire Killer - Judgement 's remix as heard in the Simon trailer
Vampire Killer (New Remix) - As the name says, it's new, and we can hear it when greeted by Sakurai in the direct and in Simon's website trailee
Starker/Wicked Child - Most likely remix of both of the original's songs
Out of Time - A new remix as we can hear during the Dracula's Castle segment in the Direct
Nothing To Lose - Re-used from Harmony of Despair as heard in the trailer and Dracula segment in the direct
Black Night - We BARELY hear a snippet of it before the Direct transitions to Alucard but I assume it's new
Bloody Tears/Monster Mash - New, as heard on the site
Dwelling of Doom - Likely a new remix
Cross Your Heart - Most likely a new remix, but may take notes (hehe) from the Portrait of Ruin version
Can't Wait Until Midnight - I believe this will be Harmony of Despair's Heart of Fire remix, the Aria of Sorrow boss fight against Julius Belmont uses a remix of both Can't Wait Until Midnight and Heart of Fire
Beginning - Likely a new remix
Mad Forest - Likely new
Aquarius - Possibly the Harmony of Despair remix (I'll start shortening it to HoD now)
Simon Belmont Theme - Either a new remix or HoD's
Simon Belmont Theme (The Arcade) - As the name suggests, from Castlevania The Arcade
Divine Bloodlines - As heard from Richter's segment of the trailer and his website video, a new remix
Slash - Likely HoD, though possibly the original considering Rondo of Blood's music quality
Dance of Illusions - Same as Slash, it got remixed in HoD but Rondo of Blood's music quality means we might get the original
Iron Blue Intentions - Likely a new remix
Dracula's Castle - I believe it's the original version but I can't hear it well enough to tell, might be HoD's version as heard in the Alucard segment
Lost Painting - Likely the original considering the song's atmosphere and SotN being a PS1 game
The Tragic Prince - Same as Lost Painting
Awake - New remix as it's from Circle of the Moon, a GBA game
Ruined Castle Gallery - HoD includes this and just like Smash, it's the only original Aria of Sorrow song to get featured
Lament of Innocence - Original, it's a ps2 song
Jet Black Incursion - Likely HoD's albeit under a different name
Crash in the Dark Night - Likely HoD's but again under a slightly different name
Ripped Silence - Likely HoD's remix, but with a different name again
Hail to the Past - HoD's remix
Jail of Jewel - Most likely a brand new remix
Twilight Stigmata - Considering it's basically the same song as An Empty Tome, even in Order of Ecclesia version as the version used for the intro may have good quality but was specifically for the intro judging by it's shorter length, an ending that means a slight edit being necessary and the fact HoD remixed it
Jet Black Wings - HoD
Go! Getsu Fuma! - HoD

This means at least 13 remixes assuming the Harmony of Despair predictions are correct. It explains the music choices for the rest and it's popularity with the composers. Has any other franchise even gotten 13 or so remixes in a single game? CastleVania was explicitly said to be popular among the sound team and goddamn it shows

Not like I'm upset about Castlevania getting representation and a healthy dose of music, but...

I swear to God if Sonic gets shafted in music again, a fair bit hell of a lot of ire is gonna get directed at Castlevania for good reason.

Just solve this problem by including Shadow and tossing in I Am All of Me, All Hail Shadow, and maybe the Westopolis remix from Forces

 

[Luigi The President]

Y'all are booling

 

[Shroob]

This. And this Again.
People wouldn't have thrown a fit if Cloud was said to be the ballot winner since it is somehow believable. But Bayonetta? No way in hell... Add to this the whole "*realisable Characters" thing and you get the shadiest deal

And then it was found out just a few months ago that the three "MARIO" slots that were found in the Roy/Ryu leak actually had ZSS as a placeholder in them and you have a recipe for a perfect ****storm.

 

[Zinith]

Damn it, why does every Fire Emblem discussion around here explode into, well....fire?

All it takes is one person dragging out a conversation for things to get out of hand...

As someone who WAS that person before, I should know...

 

[NineS]

No it wasn't. Stop this conspiracy nonsense already. She won the Ballot fair and square. Please get over it.

I direct you to this https://www.sourcegaming.info/2018/07/03/bayo106/
It essentially says that most DLC Sm4sh characters were chosen beforehand, Bayonetta included, but it's unknown how early they were planned.
Bayonetta though was chosen extremely early in the Ballot's life.

It's safe to say what Sakurai said about her winning the ballot may have just been a cover of some sort, unless he forgot to mention under what conditions she won the ballot aside from being a "realizable" character.

 

[Polan]

i'll take the blame for starting this ****show (i won't). i just really hate it when people try to go full revisionist on a character's support because they don't like their inclusion/because that character isn't a contender anymore. like everyone calling decidueye supporters bandwagoners who only liked it because its a grass type. or erasing all the bayonetta fans and trying to act like no one wanted her and she was nothing but a marketing pick (i mean she kind of was but still). that type of **** really grinds my gears.

 

[Nekoo]

Y'all are booling

Pls.

 

[StormC]

This. And this Again.
People wouldn't have thrown a fit if Cloud was said to be the ballot winner since it is somehow believable. But Bayonetta? No way in hell... Add to this the whole "*realisable Characters" thing and you get the shadiest deal

The narrative that "casuals drove the ballot" would definitely prevail and supporters of characters like K. Rool would look like fools.

Which would make for an interesting reversal come Smash Ultimate...

There was just no real good way to handle the ballot. I don't even think it's Sakurai's fault, Iwata is the one who suggested the ballot and they weren't going to give an extensive DLC budget to a dead system. It crippled characters with active roles in Smash 4 as well. It was a mixed blessing.

 

[Deleted member]

Never in my life have I seen people throw so much **** at each other over fictional characters in a video game.

I've said it before but I will gladly say it again, ya'll take this way too seriously.

 

[Nekoo]

The narrative that "casuals drove the ballot

I mean... I'll say it. But I definitely think that there a good 40 to 70% of vote that came from casual outside of the smash bubble...

 

[Deleted member]

So explain why dataminers found a ZSS model in the DLC files.


She didn't win, there's no conspiracy here, we have the fact that they were using ZSS as a base for something in her slot.

All that proves is that the decision to add her wasn't from the Ballot.

That doesn't prove she didn't legitimately place where they said she placed, however.

 

[Ring-a-Sheep]

Y'all are booling

Its that hour, you know how it be.

 

[Alternis]

And hey, Bayonetta wasn't only hype for me... *cricket noises* ...right?

For what it's worth, I was surprised and excited to see Corrin get in...
And they were the only DLC newcomer I cared about at the time

 

[Nekoo]

Never in my life have I seen people throw so much **** at each other over fictional characters in a video game

Smash4 ballot times was basically this. X10. Everyday. Increase this x30 when a DLC was Announced.

 

[SuperSceptile15]

And hey, Bayonetta wasn't only hype for me... *cricket noises* ...right?

Are you kidding? She was an awesome inclusion. People just can't get over the fact that she is legitimately popular. News flash: Just because she wasn't mentioned a lot on forums like this doesn't mean she wasn't popular. Fan polls don't accurately represent the entire Smash Ballot.

 

[Shroob]

All that proves is that the decision to add her wasn't from the Ballot.

That doesn't prove she didn't legitimately place where they said she placed, however.

Of course, I'm not arguing that she didn't place, I take Sakurai's word that she was the top in Europe, but "Realizable characters" has always been very strange wording, especially now when we know for a fact that K.Rool's ballot presence was very strong.

Considering her timing of being put in the game as a dummy file back in April....iirc? Methinks she had already been worked out as a deal by then and her placing high was moreso a happy accident.

 

[StormC]

I mean... I'll say it. But I definitely think that there a good 40 to 70% of vote that came from casual outside of the smash bubble...

The top 5-10 I imagine were still driven by the diehard fans who organized and voted over and over and over, as opposed to watching the Direct and thinking "gosh, it'd be great if they put Master Chief in," and writing a ballot for it. Bayonetta getting top 5 in US and K. Rool getting "a ton of votes" wouldn't happen otherwise. After that it trickles down.

 

[CosmicQuark]

Not like I'm upset about Castlevania getting representation and a healthy dose of music, but...

I swear to God if Sonic gets shafted in music again, a fair bit hell of a lot of ire is gonna get directed at Castlevania for good reason.

Just solve this problem by including Shadow and tossing in I Am All of Me, All Hail Shadow, and maybe the Westopolis remix from Forces

We need It Doesn't Matter.

...but guessing being salty over its exclusion kinda goes against the spirit of the title.

 

[N3ON]

This. And this Again.
People wouldn't have thrown a fit if Cloud was said to be the ballot winner since it is somehow believable. But Bayonetta? No way in hell... Add to this the whole "*realisable Characters" thing and you get the shadiest deal

Idk, more people were talking about Bayo than Cloud back then. A character that had basically no discussion surrounding them would seem even more dubious than a divisive one. To me at least.

 

[StormC]

Let's not pretend Bayonetta is some favorite of the casuals either. She's the protagonist of a semi-niche game whose only release on Nintendo sold squat.

If she did well on the ballot, it was because of hardcore fans, like most any other high ranking character.

 

[Darkfur]

I counter with this:

https://www.smashbros.com/wii/en_us/characters/sonic.html

I ain't having anyone making fun of what was absolutely and without doubt the rgeatest lead up to a game release of all time. We got SO MUCH cool news and info dropping almost nightly, that we didn't care when something like 'You Must Recover!' came up. Newcomers literally just dropped at random on the site. Footage from the SSE. ATs - which were new and exciting. It was awesome.

I agree it was! I loved staying up late for the updates. But there is so much to make fun of! XD there is literally no reason to not both love and revere that time while also poke fun at it. I remember you must recover well because it was a laaaaaate update. And I stayed up for it just like I did every post. xP

 

[Luigi The President]

I think you guys are fooling yourself a bit if you think K. Rool didn't place higher than Bayo in the Ballot but that's really all I'll chime in with

Calm down friends

 

[Nekoo]

Idk, more people were talking about Bayo than Cloud back then. A character that had basically no discussion surrounding them would seem even more dubious than a divisive one. To me at least.

I mean...if we go by talk, then I guess Shantae is a better candidate than Shovel Knight?
Imo she's not

what i mean is that because a character is talked more than another doesn't mean it is more believable I mean..
We're discussing Agumon every 3 days and Goku once per week here.

 

[Shroob]

I mean...if we go by talk, then I guess Shantae is a better candidate than Shovel Knight?
Imo she's not

what i mean is that because a character is talked more than another doesn't mean it is more believable I mean..
We're discussing Agumon every 3 days and Goku once per week here.

Oh no, you'll summon him

 

[Cristaran]

Well, the ballot helped in Ridley´s, K. Rool´s and Simon´s inclusion i think

 

[NineS]

I mean...if we go by talk, then I guess Shantae is a better candidate than Shovel Knight?
Imo she's not

what i mean is that because a character is talked more than another doesn't mean it is more believable I mean..
We're discussing Agumon every 3 days and Goku once per week here.

Don't forget Doomguy.
And Master Chief.

And surprising amounts of Lara Croft...

 

[Nekoo]

Oh no, you'll summon him

Don't worry. I have my face-down card ready.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Well, the ballot helped in Ridley´s, K. Rool´s and Simon´s inclusion i think

I, it did so it isn't like Sakurai didn't let it go to waste for nothing.

 

[Polan]

Never in my life have I seen people throw so much **** at each other over fictional characters in a video game.

I've said it before but I will gladly say it again, ya'll take this way too seriously.

people flinging **** at each other over the interwebs is common stuff. call me when people are waging war in support of their characters.

 

[Zinith]

Oh no, you'll summon him

HELLO!!! Were you expecting me?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'm gonna do something I don't think anyone here has speculated about yet, the CastleVania songs. We have a full list, but what versions of the songs are they and could they be remixed? I found out Harmony of Despair actually remixed a significant amount of the themes present which explains most of the choices and in hindsight makes me glad we didn't get Crazed In a Luminous Mansion It's a large list so it goes in a spoiler tag

Spoiler

Vampire Killer - Judgement 's remix as heard in the Simon trailer
Vampire Killer (New Remix) - As the name says, it's new, and we can hear it when greeted by Sakurai in the direct and in Simon's website trailee
Starker/Wicked Child - Most likely remix of both of the original's songs
Out of Time - A new remix as we can hear during the Dracula's Castle segment in the Direct
Nothing To Lose - Re-used from Harmony of Despair as heard in the trailer and Dracula segment in the direct
Black Night - We BARELY hear a snippet of it before the Direct transitions to Alucard but I assume it's from The Arcade judging by the guitar
Bloody Tears/Monster Mash - New, as heard on the site
Dwelling of Doom - Likely a new remix
Cross Your Heart - Most likely a new remix, but may take notes (hehe) from the Portrait of Ruin version
Can't Wait Until Midnight - I believe this will be Harmony of Despair's Heart of Fire remix, the Aria of Sorrow boss fight against Julius Belmont uses a remix of both Can't Wait Until Midnight and Heart of Fire
Beginning - Likely a new remix
Mad Forest - Likely new
Aquarius - Possibly the Harmony of Despair remix (I'll start shortening it to HoD now)
Simon Belmont Theme - Either a new remix or HoD's
Simon Belmont Theme (The Arcade) - As the name suggests, from Castlevania The Arcade
Divine Bloodlines - As heard from Richter's segment of the trailer and his website video, a new remix
Slash - Likely HoD, though possibly the original considering Rondo of Blood's music quality
Dance of Illusions - Same as Slash, it got remixed in HoD but Rondo of Blood's music quality means we might get the original
Iron Blue Intentions - Likely a new remix
Dracula's Castle - I can't hear it well enough to tell, but it might be HoD's version as heard in the Alucard segment
Lost Painting - Likely the original considering the song's atmosphere and SotN being a PS1 game
The Tragic Prince - Same as Lost Painting
Awake - New remix as it's from Circle of the Moon, a GBA game
Ruined Castle Gallery - HoD includes this and just like Smash, it's the only original Aria of Sorrow song to get featured
Lament of Innocence - Original, it's a ps2 song
Jet Black Incursion - Likely HoD's albeit under a different name
Crash in the Dark Night - Likely HoD's but again under a slightly different name
Ripped Silence - Likely HoD's remix, but with a different name again
Hail to the Past - HoD's remix
Jail of Jewel - Most likely a brand new remix
Twilight Stigmata - Considering it's basically the same song as An Empty Tome, even in Order of Ecclesia version as the version used for the intro may have good quality but was specifically for the intro judging by it's shorter length, an ending that means a slight edit being necessary and the fact HoD remixed it
Jet Black Wings - HoD
Go! Getsu Fuma! - HoD

This means at least 13 remixes assuming the Harmony of Despair predictions are correct. It explains the music choices for the rest and it's popularity with the composers. Has any other franchise even gotten 13 or so remixes in a single game? CastleVania was explicitly said to be popular among the sound team and goddamn it shows

A friend of mine pointed out Blackest Night is actually re-used from The Arcade so I've editted it as such

 

[amazonevan19]

Ending the Smash 4 DLC cycle on Bayo and Corrin was a really sour ending for me.

Is it worth being as upset over it like I was back then?

Nah.

I knew Bayonetta being proclaimed as the ballot winner was horse**** back then, and now we have definitive proof that it was.

And I do still harbor immense hatred towards FE as a whole due to how Sakurai ****ed hardcore to it in Smash 4. Nintendo wanted people like me to get interested in FE because of it, but at least for me, it made me so angry at FE getting such insanely over generous treatment because of Sakurai's sword fetish vs. criminally underrepresented series like DK, Kirby, and Metroid that I will never touch a FE game because of it. I'm voting with my wallet.

Does this mean I have to encourage others to hate FE or "boycott" it too?
Does this mean I have to engage in revisionist bull**** to deny that anyone wanted more FE representation in Smash?
Does this mean I can't enjoy the good things from Smash 4 and Ultimate?

I hope the answers to all of the above are obvious. Hint: It's a two letter word that begins wit N and ends with O.

I can be a spiteful, grumpy old man all by myself and choose not to support what I don't want to support, and buy what I want to buy. My little choice to not get FE isn't going to matter jack **** to the people at Nintendo in the end.

Like I said before (and don't say often enough): Nintendo and Sakurai respond mainly to POSITIVE activism. I'm sure Sakurai's only going to include one, maybe 2 FE characters at most this game because he realized how much backlash his ****ing caused. But for the most part, positive action for a character gets attention. It's why we got Ridley and King K Rool - Sakurai's really trying his hardest to please the fans and make up for the sins of Smash 4.

Engaging in revisionism to relitigate 2015 debates only ends up undermining your credibility and any causes which you support. That's why I've pushed back against it so forcefully and continue to ****post with glee whenever the argument is extended to another new low.

 

[Shroob]

HELLO!!! Were you expecting me?

Not even close.

 

[NineS]

Well, the ballot helped in Ridley´s, K. Rool´s and Simon´s inclusion i think

Ridley likely wasn't voted for very much in the ballot.
A lot of Ridley supporters hopes were down, as well as their expectations, due to the fact he was already a Stage hazard and what Sakurai had said about making him playable.

K. Rool without a doubt scored high on the ballot.

I don't think Simon scored very high on the ballot. There was hardly an outcry for him if I remember correctly. The fact he's in Ultimate is more due to how iconic of a character he is, and how iconic Castlevania is, not due to the ballot.

 

[Deleted member]

Of course, I'm not arguing that she didn't place, I take Sakurai's word that she was the top in Europe, but "Realizable characters" has always been very strange wording, especially now when we know for a fact that K.Rool's ballot presence was very strong.

Considering her timing of being put in the game as a dummy file back in April....iirc? Methinks she had already been worked out as a deal by then and her placing high was moreso a happy accident.

Honestly, if she didn't have high placings, they simply wouldn't have drawn attention to it.

As for the realizable part, bear in mind that she was Top 5 in US in a set that included veteran fighters (which is why we have the whole "EVERYONE IS HERE!" thing to begin with).

All we know about K. Rool's ballot presence was that it was strong. We don't know HOW strong though. We can't make assumptions that he was the "real winner" or anything like that like some have been conspiring.
The "realizable characters" bit was for the Worldwide part only, remember.